Survival Mode Was Supposed To Address Endgame... ?!

[Mietz]

the problem with most online pve content is that after a while it starts to become repetitive

all modes in tower were fun, untill you did all of them 5834753 times

in pvp people play 1 map 5849854 times and still arent bored of it, because gameplay always differs from the last game

 

I'm not saying they should start turning this into a pvp game, but unless your a grinder

endgame pve will always become boring when you've done it often enough, hence why they add new tilesets/warframes/weapons

 

I like how all the other successful pve coop games disagree with you.

Games like L4D, Killing Floor, Payday...

 

Make a good game with good gameplay and people will play it for years on end. Make a S#&$ty korean grinder and they will leave.

[BlackVortex]

I like how all the other successful pve coop games disagree with you.

Games like L4D, Killing Floor, Payday...

 

Make a good game with good gameplay and people will play it for years on end. Make a S#&$ty korean grinder and they will leave.

 

you just mentioned a bunch of few very repetitive games which will become extremely boring after a few weeks of playing

mind you I have 500+ hours on warframe, I wouldn't be able to make it past the 100 hour mark in any of those games

 

boring boring boring

[Mietz]

you just mentioned a bunch of few very repetitive games which will become extremely boring after a few weeks of playing

mind you I have 500+ hours on warframe, I wouldn't be able to make it past the 100 hour mark in any of those games

 

boring boring boring

 

And yet, tens of thousands of players play them daily for years on end, without any PVP whatsoever.

 

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=550q230410&from=0

Edited September 7, 2013 by Mietz

[CheeseHasLeafs]

Does no one remember all the threads that were going: I don't want to protect the stupid cryopod, can't we just have survival? 
Where did this concept of survival as endgame come in? I was always under the impression it was a player request. 

[Mietz]

Where did this concept of survival as endgame come in?  

 

DESteve mentioning it in the same breath as endgame concerns in the stream.

[-Kittens-]

I like how all the other successful pve coop games disagree with you.

Games like L4D, Killing Floor, Payday...

 

Make a good game with good gameplay and people will play it for years on end. Make a S#&$ty korean grinder and they will leave.

 

 

Exactly this.

 

1. Story based context and interaction.

2. Story based mechanics

 

 

tangible permanents granted by playtime and skill, not dryhumping a skinner box like a mouse trying to get a piece of cocaine in a lab hab.

[CheeseHasLeafs]

DESteve mentioning it in the same breath as endgame concerns in the stream.

Gotta open my ears.

[BlackVortex]

And yet, tens of thousands of players play them daily for years on end, without any PVP whatsoever.

 

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=550q230410&from=0

Left 4 Dead 2 isn't +5 years old, nor does it prove it's the same players playing it for years and years

aside from that Warframe is still a new game and might not have the same ammount of players as L4D2 but if they do it right they might get a lot more in the next coming years

 

Comparing Left4Dead with games like CoD CS:S WoW Aion or other games with pvp elements in it the ammount of gamers that play L4D2 is nothing and in those games the people have been playing for over 5 years

 

L4D2 max 20000, the other games I mentioned started with millions

Edited September 7, 2013 by BlackVortex

[SonicSonedit]

In livestream #12, Steve was finally confronted about veterans concerns for improving Warframes gameplay/long-term direction.  In response to this highlighted, important opening question, we were told,  a) not everyone plays 500 hrs so it's not a pressing concern... and b) we are polishing missions and making an exciting new mission called survival.  Considering how much discussion has gone into this topic on the forums,  the dev response here was disheartening, to put it mildly.  

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't take 500 hours or even 250 hours to see that the game is a shallow means to grind weapons rather than a means to enjoy the game itself.   

 

Survival mode brings exactly nothing new to the table that we haven't already done a few thousand times before.  Is this really DE applying themselves to a problem?  Is this really DE's long term solution to the ongoing problem of gameplay never getting updated? Color me not impressed.

 

I keep hoping since the missions are so god-awful repetitive maybe DE will see fit to expand the combat depth so the repetition is more tactical and challenging.  Maybe we will get a stealth update, or some ninja utilities/skills or missions that exploit more tactical gameplay.  When does DE finally listen and look at the progress of Warframe and realize there are some essential ingredients that just haven't made it into the game.  Polishing isn't going to get this game where it needs to be.  Lateral expansions, tilesets, factions, weapons, aren't going to get this game where it needs to be.  The core gameplay needs addressed so that all those awesome things DE comes up with are relevant instead of a smack in the face to those of us staring at the glaring deficiencies.

I find survival mode purely awesome. Defense mod had one ugly flaw - we had to defend the pod. Survival doesn't have this flaw.

[r3dzer0]

I find survival mode purely awesome. Defense mod had one ugly flaw - we had to defend the pod. Survival doesn't have this flaw.

Instead you are at the mercy of the great RNG god who if he blesses you will utterly destroy your computer with waypoints/ammo drops/ energy orbs/ and unpicked mods.  Enjoy it :D

[Grodgen]

Survival was my favorite type of mission. And I have 800 hours. I hope they refine it and make it better.

[Shifty_Shuffler]

I just pray that the PS4 draws a huge crowd to Warframe. Things will defo change for the better then. We may even get dedicated servers if that happens.

[D3thpool]

In livestream #12, Steve was finally confronted about veterans concerns for improving Warframes gameplay/long-term direction.  In response to this highlighted, important opening question, we were told,  a) not everyone plays 500 hrs so it's not a pressing concern... and b) we are polishing missions and making an exciting new mission called survival.  Considering how much discussion has gone into this topic on the forums,  the dev response here was disheartening, to put it mildly.  

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't take 500 hours or even 250 hours to see that the game is a shallow means to grind weapons rather than a means to enjoy the game itself.   

 

Well, so much for that i guess.

Seems that my break from this game will last longer then expected.

[Ishki88]

A game with no story and no pvp will never last.

 

If they focus on pve then have a start to finish story.

 

Period,

 

Name a game that does not have a complete story and is only pve.  This game most also be popular fan base wise and a breadwinner..

[alocrius]

PvP isn't necessary, and the way DE is doing it isn't likely to be fun either. What DE could do is take the core of their game, which is the combat and make it progressively better. As of now there are essentially NO tactics involved in the gameplay, aside from spamming no-brainer abilities. This to me is the huge, obvious, elephant in the room.

 

If updates focused on improving combat mechanics and enemy ai, that could essentially be Warframes endgame. Then the game would become progressively more fun without the need for a constant influx of content.  What PvP brings is the challenge of human opponents and the satisfaction of beating them. DE could just bring more tactical gameplay/levels, smarter more lethal enemies and clan vs clan mission scoreboards which would accomplish pretty much the same thing. They are working on the scoreboards but improving combat should have been a priority long, long ago. There is no risk in this game. So no meaningful reward either. High level content should actually be challenging. And not challenging by being overwhelmed by bulletsponges.

Edited September 7, 2013 by alocrius

[-Kittens-]

The elephant in the room unaddressed is PVP is a bandaid, a very badly implemented and chosen one.

 

1. Static pages dropped from a monster are not lore. They're a piece of lore. The codex was optional in ME, and there's pretty obvious reasons why. Pages of stuff ain't gonna make a long term impression as interactive fiction without in game context and actual setpieces/interaction.

 

2. "The players are making the lore per mission" isn't going to cut it in establishing anything either. The community deciding the fate of a boss character or the like is fine, but "players are creating the universe by bullet raping monsters over and over" is not even a kind of storytelling in any respect. Players need nuance and they need backing context. It's no accident that one of the most popular thematic saying over the forums is "maybe the tenno are actually the villains" because there's very little backing content to say otherwise.

 

3. PVP isn't going to sustain anything in this game, and it doesn't even fit what lore there is so far. If only one person at gamescom asked about it, you really don't need much other metrics to figure where you're wasting dev dollars, and making it "public" isn't going to spur sales, and it's pretty likely to do the opposite.

 

I doubt anyone is realistically expecting a gig dump of story bits and scenes next week, but it's very very very clear that this game isn't going to survive without nuanced interactive content and rich and DEEP enemy factions (both lore and mechanic wise) to fight against. No one cares about bullet sponges that kind of vaguely shoot your way, and enough apathy will kill this franchise before it has a chance to become something remarkable.

[Ishki88]

Hire Steven King to make you guys a story.

 

Profit.

[alocrius]

The elephant in the room unaddressed is PVP is a bandaid, a very badly implemented and chosen one.

 

 

PvP is a non-issue, at least for my clan.  No one has ever asked me to duel because it's a tragic endeavor.  No one I play with wants or expects pvp. Not exactly the elephant in the room because you never see it.  Shallow gameplay on the other hand is staring you in the face non-stop.  But yes, pvp is a badly implemented bandaid.

 

I doubt anyone is realistically expecting a gig dump of story bits and scenes next week, but it's very very very clear that this game isn't going to survive without nuanced interactive content and rich and DEEP enemy factions (both lore and mechanic wise) to fight against. No one cares about bullet sponges that kind of vaguely shoot your way, and enough apathy will kill this franchise before it has a chance to become something remarkable.

 

If there is one thing I've noticed it's that the creative process in Warframe is very conservative, very slow and very shallow.  I can almost guarantee there will be no "nuanced interactive content and rich and DEEP enemy factions (both lore and mechanic wise) to fight against."  What we could realistically expect for Warframe to do is give us the best action arcade shooter possible.  That entails magnifying what has already drawn everyone into the game, which is I'm pretty sure, the melee combat and gunplay.  That and the cool art direction is the entire game at this point and so far it has worked.  Take what's working and magnify it, and yes, nuance it. Extrapolate on and nuance the space combat so we stay engaged in the action.    Give us the more nuanced skills and challenging missions that the gameplay is so ripe for.  Set-pieces and interaction are like the icing on the cake but if the action is stale, it's game over.  Pun not intended.

Edited September 8, 2013 by alocrius

[r3dzer0]

The elephant in the room unaddressed is PVP is a bandaid, a very badly implemented and chosen one.

 

1. Static pages dropped from a monster are not lore. They're a piece of lore. The codex was optional in ME, and there's pretty obvious reasons why. Pages of stuff ain't gonna make a long term impression as interactive fiction without in game context and actual setpieces/interaction.

 

2. "The players are making the lore per mission" isn't going to cut it in establishing anything either. The community deciding the fate of a boss character or the like is fine, but "players are creating the universe by bullet raping monsters over and over" is not even a kind of storytelling in any respect. Players need nuance and they need backing context. It's no accident that one of the most popular thematic saying over the forums is "maybe the tenno are actually the villains" because there's very little backing content to say otherwise.

 

3. PVP isn't going to sustain anything in this game, and it doesn't even fit what lore there is so far. If only one person at gamescom asked about it, you really don't need much other metrics to figure where you're wasting dev dollars, and making it "public" isn't going to spur sales, and it's pretty likely to do the opposite.

 

I doubt anyone is realistically expecting a gig dump of story bits and scenes next week, but it's very very very clear that this game isn't going to survive without nuanced interactive content and rich and DEEP enemy factions (both lore and mechanic wise) to fight against. No one cares about bullet sponges that kind of vaguely shoot your way, and enough apathy will kill this franchise before it has a chance to become something remarkable.

+1 for addressing it before me xD

[Alphascrub]

oh well... it's kinda funny... just a brainless massacre

This game is like high velocity gun porn topped of with a decent layer of parkour. However after about a game or two it has served its purpose.

Personally I run alerts and farm frames for the most part. I'm using this game to blow time and be sure that I'm ready should the game ever get to the point where it becomes more than just a passing fancy.

[alocrius]

The game sucks people in on the premise of becoming a space ninja.  But it turns out we are space wizards with guns.  The promise of being a ninja has gotten lost in translation along the way because no thought ever goes into updating combat or core mechanics or more nuanced missions.  DE has really insulated themselves from their communities feedback.  We space wizards will just have to vote with our dollars and spend them elsewhere.

Edited September 8, 2013 by alocrius