How Shotguns Could Be Given Roles To Diversify Usage

[Vaskadar]

So, I've been thinking this over for a little while, and the Strun Wraith is exceptionally strong, moreso than any of the other shotguns. The Strun (early acquisition shotgun) has so very many drawbacks compared to all the other shotguns that it seems unreasonable to have it left in the dust whereas weapons like the Lex are also accessible fairly early with credits. Here are some of my propositional changes to bring them up to snuff (since they've been sorta left in the dust).

With the coming armor 2.0 adjustments to elements, crit chances for shotguns will need to be raised across the board.

Let's start with the regular, old-fashioned Strun.

The Strun has 130 damage, 6 magazine cap, 1.7 fire rate, 7.5% crit chance, 150% crit damage, and a really slow reload. What I propose is:

Give the Strun the following stats

-15 damage per pellet (bringing damage up to 150)

-Increase the falloff exponent (or earlier, more gradual falloff)

-Make each shell load 1-by-1

-Increase the reload speed (due to reload changes)

-Add a pump animation

-200% crit damage

-20% crit chance

This would make it a good close-range critical shotgun that won't have the player constantly worried about their current magazine capacity. It'd be in a similar place to the Lex as far as its role. Low-fire rate, high damage, high crit weapon offset by a relatively longer reload time (Due to the one-by-one reloading)

Boar got taken off the market, but it's still a pretty nice gun post-buff, even if the ammunition economy isn't all that great with it, I still love that ludicrous fire rate that it has.

It should be the riot shotgun of the group designed for crowd control, with innate stun (not 100%, but 50%), and the wide spread to hit large groups. This would differentiate it from the other shotguns.

The Boar Needed

-8 pellets

What it still needs

-Faster Reload Time

-Innate stun rate of 50%

-10% crit chance

-New weapon model

Sobek is a great weapon, there's no doubt about that, but shotguns of all kinds could use some loving and stuff to differentiate them from one another. I think it'd be cool to have both barrels alternate fire.

It could use 5% crit chance

I want Hek to be very different from the other shotguns. A charge mechanic. This charge mechanic would involve loading every single shell to fire at once. Oh, and higher damage would be nice, too. The proposed changes to Hek might make it the single-most scary weapon in the game for just single-shot burst damage. There would be a loss in controlled efficiency in this case, though. Perhaps the charge mechanic is enough?

-Hek can fire up to four shells at once, emptying all four barrels (that is how it works, right?)

-Insane burst damage, but reduced ammo efficiency.

-Pellet damage should remain the same. Charged shells make the shotgun a one-shot killer up close.

-616 damage in a single charged burst. 28 pellets at once.

-Slightly increased reload speed. Perhaps a 15% increase.

-Slightly reduced ammo efficiency due to super burst.

-Reduce accuracy when firing all four barrels at once. A value of 6.0 would be desirable.

-7.5% crit chance

In essence, I hope these differentiate the shotguns enough to be role-based as opposed to straight upgrades of one another. P.S. I love the word Diversify.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Luart]

This will make all shotguns viable one way or the other +1 bro <3

[Vaskadar]

I think that the Strun needs to be the easiest to use out of the group, and the most efficient, which is why I gave it the highest base damage, as well as the high crit chance and crit damage. It should be the most familiar. Thanks for the +1 :D

Edited September 9, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Luart]

the idea in the  sobek is awesome ,  yeah one shotgun that doesnt deal 1 dmg per pellet at med range!

[Pure]

why not just use the strun wraith?

[Kinethia]

I have two concerns with this: First, it would make grineer and especially Vay Hek far more deadly to new players, which is not where we need a big boost in difficulty. Remember that we aren't the only ones using these things.

 

Second, this more seems like the sort of ideas and roles more commonly used for primes and research weapons, which are intended to outclass their common equivilants anyway, and are better suited to competing with a Vandal-equivilant weapon like the Wraith.

 

I believe the Boar is a Tenno weapon, which makes it an excellent candidate for a prime equivilant.

 

In addition, the single-shot super blast in particular strikes me as an excellent idea for a new Chem lab weapon. Detonite explosives can be used internally to launch a huge wave of shrapnel. That's a pretty compelling option for a research tree which seems to be rather... bald... of ideas and branches at the moment. EDIT: Also, adding better shotguns here means those weapons will end up in the hands of late game grineer, which is where an increase in difficulty is more welcome.

 

There are already established methods for dramatic improvements to base weapons like these, and two in particular (the chem and bio labs) could use more attention and good ideas like this.

 

We also don't want the original Strun to outshine the Braton, Aklato, and Lex too strongly in the mid to early game. They're all in the same tier after all, below everything else except the starting weapons.

 

EDIT: Addendum to fourth paragraph.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Kinethia

[Revel72]

Hek will not be Slug weapon?! :(

[Vaskadar]

We also don't want the original Strun to outshine the Braton, Aklato, and Lex too strongly in the mid to early game. They're all in the same tier after all, below everything else except the starting weapons.

 

EDIT: Addendum to fourth paragraph.

Two words: Screw tiers. This game needs strategic diversity. I've been playing this game since January, and all that's come up is just new content that outclasses the old content. Not something I'm alright with.

Mods should dictate progression with weaponry, not the weapons themselves, otherwise you throw difficulty curve out the window. Yes, I may have just contradicted my original post, but this is an issue if weapons that are released are progressively more powerful. More powerful weapons being released over time that outclasses and outshines older content is called power creep.

IF you insist that there should be tiers, then I insist that it should be divided up into regular acquisition weapons, i.e. everything acquired through the market, and Prime/Vandal/Wraith weapons, which are apparently supposed to be direct upgrades (by a certain percentage). All other weapons should be specialized.

The Supra doesn't completely outclass the Gorgon, why? Travel time. The Gorgon doesn't outclass the Braton, why? Accuracy. The Braton doesn't outclass the Latron, why? Efficiency. The Seer doesn't outclass the Lex because of Crit chance and travel time vs. hitscan. There always needs to be pros and cons. The game didn't start out with tiers outside of getting above the starting gear. The starting gear (the Skana, Lato, and MK-1 Braton) is the only stuff that should be relatively weaker than most other things to incentivize using other things. Yes, it works that way too, but...

Consider this: Diversifying weaponry as opposed to buffing the crap out of everything is the direction this game should be taking, so as not to make everything super easy and allow us to fight 200+ level enemies before the game hits a brick wall.

Strun and Boar need reworks. Sobek needs to be different from Hek. Hek needs to be different from Sobek.

Braton should be different from the Dera, for obvious reasons, as should the Hind from the Burston (The Burston needs to be the more accurate and easier to use one).

It's been forever since they've done an actual balance pass, and hopefully U10 does address at least a few of the outdated/outclassed weapons.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Amistyrja]

DE would probably just make Hek Wraith, Sobek Wraith and Boar Wraith. 

[Pure]

The reason new content out classes old content is so they make money.  If old content was better there would be no reason for people to forma and level new weapons.   Logically it's better for them to make new weapons than work on old weapons that wont make them money.

[X3Evanescence]

These concepts appeals greatly to me.

For what Kinethia said regarding how bosses will also become harder while making Braton and other low tier weapons obsolete is also a valid point.

I like the changes you have proposed, especially the Charge super burst mechanic of the Hek. This is an excellent way to make the Hek viable. I was thinking of a charge mechanic to rework Hek as well, inspired by Ratchet and Clank.

But for these tiering, Strun costs 75k credits.

New players will find it next to impossible to acquire this weapon without help anyway, so I guess this buff to Strun will be fine.

This also helps to make crit builds in shotguns more viable too.

+1.

[Brimir]

why not just use the strun wraith?

 

Because it is ugly as sin.

[Vaskadar]

The reason new content out classes old content is so they make money.  If old content was better there would be no reason for people to forma and level new weapons.   Logically it's better for them to make new weapons than work on old weapons that wont make them money.

They'd make more money on slots and catalysts if they were to do this, because then people would be more reluctant to sell certain weapons.

They could also ignore the damage proposals and just go with the other proposals. The Boar is the only one in need of a damage buff to have higher DPS than all the other shotguns (since it has the worst ammo efficiency as it stands)

Edited September 9, 2013 by Vaskadar

[USIncorp]

I don't think that DE quite understands the issue of power creep. I hope they figure it out soon.

And making weapon "tiers" is just a way of saying "We don't want to make unique new weapons, we'll take the existing weapons, buff them and call these tiers". 

 

No. That's not how it works. Introducing these tiers instead of making unique weapons means that we end up with boring, overpowered guns.

We don't want that.

[LazyKnight]

I could careless what DE does to bring the other shotguns up to par as long as they are made useful(how is not important to me just that it is done). They have been mediocre for awhile now.  I end up ditching my Hek so often to just use a twin gremlin because it is far better at the role the shotguns are supposed to fill.

[Kinethia]

The reason new content out classes old content is so they make money.  If old content was better there would be no reason for people to forma and level new weapons.   Logically it's better for them to make new weapons than work on old weapons that wont make them money.

 

I'd like to point out that not one high-tier weapon can be purchased with platinum. They all need to be acquired and/or assembled in-game.

 

Two words: Screw tiers. This game needs strategic diversity. I've been playing this game since January, and all that's come up is just new content that outclasses the old content. Not something I'm alright with.

 

They can do both. The higher one climbs on the tiers, the more diverse and numerous the weapons become. There's nothing wrong with tiers as long as they release enough weapons to fill them well for what people need at different places, and so long as they know where the ceiling is.

 

That last part is critical. You imply that there's chronic power creep where every weapon released is better than the last. Most of the most recent additions (Vasto and akvasto, miter, and gremlins) are not top tier weapons. The Strun Wraith is no more powerful overall than the last Vandal was, which was released a rather long time ago now. DE seems to know their tiers and are trying to expand all of them without tacking on new ones. As long as they continue on that road, I don't think you need to worry.

 

In addition, it's a lot of work to get access to a high tier weapon. It gives people something to work for, and frankly I'd feel a bit put off If I spent a huge amount of time working towards earning and building a weapon only to realize I don't like it as much as something which can be purchased on the market for 20,000 credits. I'd certainly be reluctant to try for anything similar in the future.

 

On top of that, I doubt that there would be as many weapons as there currently are if they were trying to keep everything on a single tier. Primes have smaller development costs then entirely new weapon ideas, and are easier to compare and test because they can use the base weapons as a guide. Research weapons tend to explore very different approaches which are, frankly, nigh-impossible to balance against most other weapons without making them more generalized and less interesting.

 

Ogris is arguably not as good as the Lex because I don't blow myself up with the Lex very often, comparatively speaking. However the damage output is clearly in a very different class. Using tiers to make that vast gulf more comprehensible is a legitimate approach.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Kinethia

[Jammmy_Man99]

i am pissed off with Warframe as i had done 22 minutes to get the strun wraith, but when it came to giving out the strun, they put my time down to 14 minutes and have now only just put it back up to 22 minutes, this is my rant at why i don't like Warframe events, another incident like this happened to my friend when they gave him the snipetron, when he was 10 grineer informers above getting the snipetron vandal

[Kinethia]

i am &!$$ed off with Warframe as i had done 22 minutes to get the strun wraith, but when it came to giving out the strun, they put my time down to 14 minutes and have now only just put it back up to 22 minutes, this is my rant at why i don't like Warframe events, another incident like this happened to my friend when they gave him the snipetron, when he was 10 grineer informers above getting the snipetron vandal

 

Have you talked to them about it politely? As it was an error on their part, they should acknowledge it and reverse the damage done.

[LazyKnight]

i am &!$$ed off with Warframe as i had done 22 minutes to get the strun wraith, but when it came to giving out the strun, they put my time down to 14 minutes and have now only just put it back up to 22 minutes, this is my rant at why i don't like Warframe events, another incident like this happened to my friend when they gave him the snipetron, when he was 10 grineer informers above getting the snipetron vandal

If you go to your ranking and it says you did 22 minutes I am sure the customer support will give you a wraith.

[Estred]

I just want to say I love the Hek idea. Single handedly it should be the "Ogris" of Shotguns. One shot with MASSIVE damage. Sobek is a Suppression gun I give it that. I feel though that Strun Wraith and Sobek are equal's each do it slightly different.

[Brimir]

The Hek definitely needs more love out of all the Shotguns.

 

It does far too little in comparison to Sobek to warrant all the disadvantages it has.

[Vaskadar]

The gap needs to be closed, though, or at least somewhat bridged. The Wraith is in the realm of "Holy S#&$ easymode." right now, whereas the other shotguns are slagging behind.

The Strun should be the easiest to use, but not be exceptionally fast in terms of DPS, making it that sorta all-rounder shotgun, with the potential to be an awesome crit-build shotgun. The Boar should be the equivalent of a riot shotgun in the game, meant to CC large crowds, whereas the Sobek should be a longer-range, more focused version of the Boar, so it punishes inaccuracy, rather than rewarding it. The Hek should be as stated before, something completely different.

I disagree with Brimir on that the Hek needing the most attention, but... it could use something to spice it up quite a bit.

Give each something unique to appeal to different playstyles and then we'll have some form of 'balance' but please make some of the shotguns more efficient.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Vaskadar

[LoveYourEnemy]

It would also be cool if the Sobek and Boar had an innate puncture ability so they can be used for crowd control (because they are auto shotguns).

[Vaskadar]

Hopefully DE looks at this and considers roles as a way of balancing weapon types. Direct statistical upgrades to weaponry (outside of primes and event weapons) should be reserved for loot-based games like Borderlands and Diablo. Each weapon should be special in its category.

[CaptainohCaptain]

Now, now, it's this thread again.

Tell me, why the hell shotguns should be brought in line with exclusive achievement-only gun? Why won't we just match every pistol to Acrid then? And every rifle to max efficiency of Ogris?