Defense 4 vs 4 (PvP)

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Not true for most players. Heck I've been here for 4 years and I'm not tired of the same old missions and enemies yet.

Besides, if I wanted to play a PVP game or mode, I'd go play any other game that has it. Same for the majority of the WF community.

We play WF because it's a PVE horde shooter, not because it has PVP.

Hey and that's cool. Play what you like playing, I'd say. I'm back to playing PvE as well now.

But please don't generalise to everyone around here.

 

@Wrikster I forgot to mention: there were modes that had everyone on the same level; no mods, no Warframe differences, etc: Opticor Variant, Quick Steel, Snowday Showdown and some Valentine's day event (?).

[(XBOX)Humher]

10 hours ago, Wrikster said:

And that's not something a regenerating stamina bar can fix?

A simple and efficient idea. congratulations

 

[Feyangol]

57 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

I watched the full video, and I don't see how this is a problem.
Because: 1) Most of these super-advanced techniques have bullet-jumping in them. So if you can't bullet jump freely, it makes these sort of pointless. How much stamina a bullet jump consumes can be decided on by the community and DE. And as I said in my post, all Conclave mods will be removed. (Ok now that I think about it I only implied mods being removed from weapons. I'll edit it). Everyone will be on a level playing field.

2) Just because a couple of players can do insane stuff like this doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. Quake had everyone rocket-jumping all over the map, and that didn't stop it from becoming one of the greatest PvP games of all time. The changes I suggested are vastly more restrictive than rocket jumping. Besides, it would be far better than whatever we have now. Just because a solution is not a miracle cure doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered at all.

[...]

About 1):
That is not quite the point. By implementing stamina you would implement a new skill bar of how well you learned to use stamina. Essentially this would force players to learn how to minimize their stamina consumption while retaining as much mobility as possible. So the ones who would be the least affected by a stamina system are the ones, that move the most efficiently and the ones that don't move enough to even notice stamina. 

So would does it mean? The skill ceiling to the best players (good movement) increases. You need more practice to be a good player. The skill floor to the worst players (that don't move) decreases. You need less practice to be a mediocre player. The difference between being a bad player and a slightly less bad player is smaller. And the difference between a good player and an actually good player is bigger. That means that you need a little less practise to not be bad, because everyone got worse in a thing that you are not able to do well. But on the same time you would need a lot more work to actually be mediocre or even good due to a new skillset that you have to learn on top of the movement system that you need to learn anyway for Conclave.

=> If you want to reduce movement even more, then it would have to be in a way, that you cannot learn how to work around it, if it is for the purpose of skill gap reduction (= no soft restriction like stamina).

About 2.):
But it does not help if you replace this "insane" thing (constant high velocity movement) with another "insane" thing ("stamina management").
 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Feyangol
polishing, I suck at this language ^^

[Wrikster]

31 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The gameplay would be different from what it is now, of course. But those who play it more would have a distinct advantage. Even now, top players don't need to bounce around like crazy. Just watch this (and the other guy is by no means a newbie):

  Hide contents

 

 

This looks ridiculously fun if I'm being honest. The guy playing Excal just seems really skilled, which is how I'd like Conclave to be. It's fast and challenging, yes, but it's not nearly as insane as
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK8fgDXDGKg&t=5794s

Or even DE's own 

 

[Wrikster]

8 minutes ago, Feyangol said:

..The skill ceiling to the best players (good movement) increases. You need more practice to be a good player. The skill floor of the worst players (that don't move) decreases. You need less practice to be a mediocre player. The difference between being a bad player and a slightly less bad player is smaller. And the difference between a good player and an actually good player is bigger. That means that you need a little less practise to not be bad, because everyone got worse in a thing that you are not able to do well. But on the same time you would need a lot more work to actually be mediocre or even good due to a new skillset that you have to learn on top of the movement system that you need to learn anyway for Conclave..

Perfect! Isn't that exactly how PvP should be? You don't need to play Conclave 24/7 to be decent at it, but if you want to excel, you'll have to put in the effort. This ensures that newbies don't get wrecked in a second, while vets actually get rewarded for their dedication.

 

10 minutes ago, Feyangol said:

If you want to reduce movement even more, then it would have to be in a way, that you cannot learn how to work around it, if it is for the purpose of skill gap reduction (= no soft restriction like stamina).

I'm in favour of removing advanced movement entirely from Conclave. But I don't think people will take too kindly to it. And managing stamina would be, for lack of a better word, a "background skill". How it works out in the end will all depend on how much the moves cost and how fast it regenerates. For instance, a single bullet-jump+aim glide could drain your entire stamina bar. It would then start to regenerate over 5 seconds after a cooldown of 5 seconds. So that's a ten second penalty for using up the whole thing. This will mean that advanced movement will be a panic button instead of a spammable ability that requires some management.

Imagine this scenario: You're hunting down a player with low HP. They escape across a chasm with their bullet jump + aim glide combo. You're wielding an Arca Plas. Now, you can choose to chase after them (since you can't snipe them), or you can focus on the enemies near you. This will introduce another layer of skill to the game.

[Kontrollo]

20 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

This looks ridiculously fun if I'm being honest. The guy playing Excal just seems really skilled, which is how I'd like Conclave to be. It's fast and challenging, yes, but it's not nearly as insane

Well, check both -Livjatan's and -Dren-'s profile (edit: hint: they would both wipe the floor with me even back when I was playing it regularly).

As I said, just bouncing around wins no games here, either. You need to be able to be mobile and aim if you want to play it like that. But if you have a feeling for the situation you're in, you can also stand in place and take the time to shoot.

Like the previous one, I've linked this in the other thread already. I think a lot of the complaints are really a problem with people being on different levels. You should try to find some guys that are about on yours. This one is much less bouncy:

Spoiler

 

 

Also, if you want to introduce restrictions like that just for PvP, it wouldn't be Warframe anymore:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Feyangol]

15 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

Perfect! Isn't that exactly how PvP should be? You don't need to play Conclave 24/7 to be decent at it, but if you want to excel, you'll have to put in the effort. This ensures that newbies don't get wrecked in a second, while vets actually get rewarded for their dedication.

[...]

Except, that newbies still would. You would not be decent, if everyone else moved a little less. You still don't aim well. You still don't move well. You still get matched with all kinds of skill levels. The only thing that limits your success in pvp is your own ability and skill. You simply underestimate that only the player that move the worst would be more decent. The vast amount of players would get limited movement, while not getting more success.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Feyangol

[Wrikster]

4 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Also, if you want to introduce restrictions like that just for PvP, it wouldn't be Warframe anymore

I mean..we already have a major restriction just for PvP: we can't use our PvE mods. And don't you think it's a bit of a double-standard to subject Conclave to what people's consensus of what 'true' Warframe is while at the same time not even considering it to be Warframe in the first place? I've seen people claiming that Conclave should be removed entirely from the game, and yet when Conclave tries to do its own thing, it suddenly matters that it won't be Warframe anymore? We have restrictions in PvE modes too. No revives in Arbitrations, hazards in Sorties, no shields in Nightmare missions, and yet, these fall under the banner of true Warframe. Warframe is whatever we want it to be.

Let's be real here, Warframe is a giant, ungainly, amorphous amalgamation of a hundred random different ideas, which somehow just work. I don't think introducing a simple stamina bar will be so detrimental to PvP.

[Wrikster]

2 minutes ago, Feyangol said:

-snip-

Ah but atleast they would have a chance of fighting back. Because they would actually be able to see their target and place their crosshairs on them. I have seen way too many people abuse the movement to bypass the need for actual skill. When you're constantly bullet-jumping you're not using other skills like hiding and aiming. You can easily flit across the map with an Ignis lighting everyone up.

Of course, nerfing the movement alone will not work. You'll need to combine it it with restricting the usage of all but a select few weapons. So your long-range hitscan weapons can have less representation compared to quirky, short-range weapons.

[Kontrollo]

44 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

I mean..we already have a major restriction just for PvP: we can't use our PvE mods. And don't you think it's a bit of a double-standard to subject Conclave to what people's consensus of what 'true' Warframe is while at the same time not even considering it to be Warframe in the first place? I've seen people claiming that Conclave should be removed entirely from the game, and yet when Conclave tries to do its own thing, it suddenly matters that it won't be Warframe anymore? We have restrictions in PvE modes too. No revives in Arbitrations, hazards in Sorties, no shields in Nightmare missions, and yet, these fall under the banner of true Warframe. Warframe is whatever we want it to be.

Let's be real here, Warframe is a giant, ungainly, amorphous amalgamation of a hundred random different ideas, which somehow just work. I don't think introducing a simple stamina bar will be so detrimental to PvP.

It isn't, not really.

Because I've played the Dark Sector/Solar Rail Conflicts. It was just cheese in every conceivable form in (and outside of) the game. When you have Warframes with powers like Mirage, Mesa and old Ash ult, the game just comes down to who can reach the required level + Energy first.

"Fun times" also involved:

• Reward bait & switching (Solar Rail defenders could put up bounties)
• Connection shenanigans (I think defenders always had the host?)
• Rail "trading" (setting it up in a way that only ever the same two Alliances would have a Rail in place)
• Spawn camping
• Fully modded weapons could just oneshot
• ... probably forgot a few things

And that was all back when we didn't have today's power levels.

 

Now the idea is that weapons and Warframes are balanced, and that's a good thing. Is it perfect? Probably not, but if you were around for that, you'd appreciate it. It took a while, but the devs did a great job with the resources they were given.

 

 

Edit:

34 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

flit across the map with an Ignis lighting everyone up

Now that might be because things aren't being maintained anymore. But I don't have the insight on what is going on nowadays.

 

Edit 2:

I mean sure, maybe at some point they might want to try it. And I can only speak for myself, but I probably wouldn't want to pick it up again in that form. There were also some suggestions about a Grineer vs. Corpus mode and whatnot. I'd rather give that a try -- but let's be honest, I play this game for the Space Ninjas.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Feyangol]

42 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

Ah but atleast they would have a chance of fighting back. Because they would actually be able to see their target and place their crosshairs on them. I have seen way too many people abuse the movement to bypass the need for actual skill. When you're constantly bullet-jumping you're not using other skills like hiding and aiming. You can easily flit across the map with an Ignis lighting everyone up.

Of course, nerfing the movement alone will not work. You'll need to combine it it with restricting the usage of all but a select few weapons. So your long-range hitscan weapons can have less representation compared to quirky, short-range weapons.

Expect that they wouldn't be able to. Stamina would not make it easier for you to aim. Players would still be able to move with a similar speed like now. Astamina system changes how often you can use that speed. So let me ask an easy question: when you can't use your speed all the time, then when will you use it? When you need it. So essentially in an exchange you would still have one player that moves and the other that does not. Of course you could argue that after a certain time, the moving player has to slow down eventually. But would the newbie last that long? The answer is no. A not moving target is dead in an instant. 

So a typical exchange would now be: Player A moves at high speed around the map and randomly sees Player B. He rushes over and then procedes to get a surprise attack at the not moving player B. That kills him in an instant, because a not moving target is so easy to hit.

And a typical exchange with stamina would be: Player A moves around at a low speed and randomly sees Player B. He moves a bit closer to be able to rush over and get a surprise attack and again killing player B in an instant, because a not moving target is so easy to hit.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Feyangol

[(XBOX)Humher]

@Kontrollo @Wrikster @Feyangol

Whats about Defense PvP?  

Do you think it is viable?

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by (XB1)Humher

[Kontrollo]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Humher said:

@Kontrollo @Wrikster @Feyangol

Whats about Defense PvP?  

Do you think it is viable?

Yeah sorry about getting off-topic like that.

The mode sounds a bit like UTs Assault, which would certainly be something I'd enjoy. But it'd depend a lot on the maps and accessibility to energy, because some Warframes would have an inherent advantage (think Vauban's Tesla).

Also, they'd have to implement a league system for it, which is not something that looks realistic at the moment.

[(XBOX)Humher]

8 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Yeah sorry about getting off-topic like that.

The mode sounds a bit like UTs Assault, which would certainly be something I'd enjoy. But it'd depend a lot on the maps and accessibility to energy, because some Warframes would have an inherent advantage (think Vauban's Tesla).

Also, they'd have to implement a league system for it, which is not something that looks realistic at the moment.

cool, thank you, no need to apologize.

  Everything about PvP is welcome.

And I found the debate about the inclusion of a stamina bar interesting.

[WhiteMarker]

On 2019-02-15 at 4:36 PM, Kontrollo said:

I've seen quite a few people now -- WhiteMarker among them -- who seem like they don't know that the following thread exists, and how these servers work:

The linked thread talks about dedicated servers. I know that thread. Now you will explain to me what this linked thread has to do with what I wrote in this thread right here so far.

Seems more like you don't know what you are talking about when calling my name... 

[Kontrollo]

52 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

The linked thread talks about dedicated servers. I know that thread. Now you will explain to me what this linked thread has to do with what I wrote in this thread right here so far.

Seems more like you don't know what you are talking about when calling my name... 

Well then, why don't you elaborate on this?

On 2019-02-11 at 11:39 PM, WhiteMarker said:

... Just imagine PvP with 200 ms ping. The only one who has a working game is the host. ...

I mean, when enough people with decent equipment are willing to host for others, then everyone gets a good ping and the match is fair. Dedicated servers are less resource intensive, too.

[WhiteMarker]

32 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well then, why don't you elaborate on this?

This is a completely different thread.
The dedicated servers we have now, are user hosted. This is possible, because currently PvP is for 12 (?) players in a match. This thread, you took my post from, is about Battle Royal. That's what? 50 or more players at a time? This is on a completely different scale.

But enough of this. If you want to talk about the subject of another thread, then go for it in the appropriate thread.
Or maybe this is the new forum-meta. Quoting people from other threads. I'm sure this will help with clarity...

[Kontrollo]

5 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

This is a completely different thread.
The dedicated servers we have now, are user hosted. This is possible, because currently PvP is for 12 (?) players in a match. This thread, you took my post from, is about Battle Royal. That's what? 50 or more players at a time? This is on a completely different scale.

But enough of this. If you want to talk about the subject of another thread, then go for it in the appropriate thread.
Or maybe this is the new forum-meta. Quoting people from other threads. I'm sure this will help with clarity...

Fair enough.

Well, I was writing that under the assumption that what was said previously still holds true, and I happened to see your posts in both threads. And so I asked you to elaborate. Especially the "the only one who has a working game is the host" is what made me think you've never seen that thread. I mean, the host isn't playing, right? It's 8 players in Conclave, by the way.

 

But now that you're here, care to back up the other statement, you know, the one I've quoted originally?

[BoyTitan]

On 2019-02-14 at 10:02 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Or maybe we don't bother with PvP.
Just stick to PvE and if you want to play PvP, then just play another game. If you want to play PvE, then just return to Warframe.

This is the pve only players fav saying. Not realizing pvp players who also like pve do just that leave.  Thats less money in D.E. pocket meaning thats less money that could go towards game development for single player content also. Even destiny mediocre pvp definitely helps it player base number.