Desecrate Replacement Ideas

[Siubijeni]

There are a lot of threads out there about Nekros and the general reaction to Desecrate, but although I saw suggestions cropping up here and there, I couldn't find a topic specifically for ideas to replace Desecrate. So I made this one! I've seen a lot of cool ideas, and I thought if they're all in one place it would be helpful for those curious like me, and interested in all the discussion.

So I'll go ahead and start with the abilites I came up with, and some abilities friends of mine are too lazy to post and delegated to me:

 

Transfusion: Nekros swaps HP totals with the target (friend or foe). He can gain health above his maximum with this ability, but it drains  away over time (like energy in some Nightmare missions).
Range: X/X/X/X

Rate of Drain X/X/X/X

I love this one. It seems like a perfect ability for a support frame, and it also fits his necromantic/death theme pretty well. Yes, it could be used to troll, but so can Switch Teleport. Most people are mature enough not to do that, in my experience, so I'm not too worried. There are SO many uses and situations for this, it would be fun to see in-game. Obviously, some diminished effect would need to be figured out for bosses. Perhaps a simple stun?
 

Dessicate: Nekros corrodes the soul and flesh of a target enemy, amplifying damage, slowing them, and dealing a small amount of damage. The cruelties of Dessicate are such that it can be recast to cause further harm to the enemies of Nekros and the Tenno.

Initial Cast:  Lasts X seconds, Amplifies Damage X%, Slows X%, Initial Damage X/X/X/X

Recast:  Increase Amp X/X/X/X%, Slow additional X/X/X/X%, Reapplies damage, Duration +X/X/X/X

This one would excel against bosses, and be somewhat useful against heavy units, but would see relatively little day-to-day use. Perhaps a rename to "Soul Prison" and tying a slightly lesser effect to an area instead would be easier to balance and a more useful ability. Either way, the idea is slight direct damage, modest damage amplification, and severe movement inhibition.

 

Death's Toll: Nekros binds his soul to his current location, and channels his pain into these tethers to reality. If he is killed, he will immediately revive with the same amount of health as when he activated Death's Toll, and three seconds of invulnerability. This process breaks his chains, dealing radial damage based upon the health lost while bound. The rite is not without risks, however, and cannot be maintained forever--if his enemies prove too weak to end Nekros, he has no choice but to pay the toll of his own flesh, reducing him to 5% health.

Radius: X/X/X/X Meters

Damage: 150/200/250/300% health lost while active

This one is courtesy of my clanmate LegionVangaurd, although I admit to some degree of dramatization. This one could be an effective panic button, but has some interesting utility as a combat gimmick as well, perhaps to deal with toxic ancients en masse by using them to pay the Toll, and taking advantage of your brief invulnerability to escape the mass of poisonous clouds left behind.

 

Dance of the Dead: Nekros draws the life force from enemies nearby, feeding it into the frames he and his compatriots bear. Each death strengthens the Tenno for the duration of the ability, turning stalemate into slaughter.

Radius: X/X/X/X Meters

Damage Amplification: X% per death

Duration: X/X/X/X Seconds

This is from IS0E and I cooperatively, with one hole: is it a stationary effect, like Frost's bubble, or an aura, like World on Fire? Both have their pros and cons. I like the idea of it being a decently sized stationary effect the Tenno have to stay in, with a larger radius for enemy deaths to be drawn in from. But I also like the idea of it being a smaller aura that travels with necro to get the deaths, with the larger radius in this case being the search radius for Tenno to buff (possibly no outer limit at all, like Blessing). Either would be way cool. Any thoughts?

 

Out of these, the one I'd most like to see replace Desecrate is Transfusion, but I like them all.

So there's my two cents, now let's get some more ideas!

Edited September 16, 2013 by Siubijeni

[Phoenix86]

Decay: The necro drains all enemie's life force in the area, lowering their HP, their armor and their dmg by % (could be 20-30-40-50%) for a set amount of time (could be 5-10-15-20 seconds) after which enemies recover their full power.

Increased by Focus, Continuity and Stretch

[CloudPies]

lowering their HP, their armor and their dmg by % (could be 20-30-40-50%) for a set amount of time (could be 5-10-15-20 seconds)

Increased by Focus, Continuity and Stretch

 

So enemies only have 35% armor, hp and dmg... thats the only things that scale with level.

Pick one or two, not all 3. Nova's already bad enough with her do-it-all button.

[Tannaros]

I think rather than entirely changing the ability a simpler fix would be to give a buff upon usage of the skill.

 

Ex. after using Desecrate, Nekros gains X (damage reduction, power increase, energy regeneration, damage buff, etc.) for Y seconds depenent upon the number of corpses successfully Desecrated.

 

This still entertains the original idea behind the skill, and gives an additional benefit beyond the initial gamble.

[LazerusKI]

to be honest...i like none of them

Transfusion: "Most people are mature" no they are not.

Dessicate: Sounds like another version of Soul Punch

Death's Toll: A simple: Nope

Dance of the Dead: Lets replace Trinity?

 

Desecrate is not bad, it can be very usefull, the simple problem is...the mechanic is broken

 

Ex. after using Desecrate, Nekros gains X (damage reduction, power increase, energy regeneration, damage buff, etc.) for Y seconds depenent upon the number of corpses successfully Desecrated.

would have the same problems. There is simply a problem with the corpse-mechanics.

 

What i would want to see, if it is for him or for one of the next frames, is another "Area Denial" skill, like Embers Fire Blast

Edited September 16, 2013 by LazerusKI

[Phoenix86]

So enemies only have 35% armor, hp and dmg... thats the only things that scale with level.

Pick one or two, not all 3. Nova's already bad enough with her do-it-all button.

 

Values are "imaginary", they could be lower or simply not affected by Focus, if i had to remove 1 i would remove the dmg de-buff

[Siubijeni]

to be honest...i like none of them

Transfusion: "Most people are mature" no they are not.

Dessicate: Sounds like another version of Soul Punch

Death's Toll: A simple: Nope

Dance of the Dead: Lets replace Trinity?

 

Desecrate is not bad, it can be very usefull, the simple problem is...the mechanic is broken.

What i would want to see, if it is for him or for one of the next frames, is another "Area Denial" skill, like Embers Fire Blast

Transfusion: Oh? You play with a lot of ten year olds then? I have had problems with only THREE trolls ever abusing switch teleport, and for the abilities excellent utility when used properly, I think that's plenty worth it. I see no problem introducing another such ability.

Dessicate: How is it another version of Soul Punch? Punch is a direct damage ability that reduces armor. This is a primarily debuff ability, with the idea that it is a 'curse' that Nekros must maintain. They're both utility abilities, and that's really the only comparison that can be drawn. And seeing as Nekros is meant to be a support frame, that's a GOOD comparison.

Death's Toll: A simple nope does not suffice. Granted, the ability fits less with the support theme of Nekros than the others, but "Nope" is not a valid objection, or even close. It makes you sound like one of the immature people who would abuse Transfusion and Switch Tele, in fact.

Dance of Death: Replace Trinity? How? This does nothing to reduce damage taken, and nothing to heal. It doesn't take damage and swing it back at them. This is not Trin at all, though it could work well with her Blessing. More, if people feel it is too powerful, it could easily be made to fit by making the damage boost halved for non-melee weapons, or any number of other potential adjustments. More, if it were a stationary effect, as I imagine would maybe be best, it can easily be used as the area denial you claim to want.

The only way you could think this replaces a Trinity ability is if you read only the description and not it's actual effects. The life force drawn away is not put into health but supercharged damage. If you don't care enough to read and understand the whole thing before offering invalid objections and ill-informed opinions, please don't offer any feedback at all.

 

Desecrate IS bad. You get more loot, sure, but it requires corpses and energy, the former of which is not readily available, nor is it really viable to change the entirety of corpse mechanics. You want Frost's ability's to not shatter bodies now? Or Dethcube's vaporize to NOT vaporize? Too many effects destroy bodies, and it suits the effects well. In my opinion, they take priority to a new ability like Desecrate, because it is easier and cooler to simply replace desecrate than rework the entirety of the corpse system. Besides, the new spare parts sentinel mod is more effective, and can be applied to any sentinel, so you aren't even limited to Carrier and his item-centric abilities. Nekros deserves better than a sentinel ability.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Siubijeni

[PaperAlien]

If it spawned guaranteed Neurodes, I would go through all the effort of farming derelict keys, farming derelict keys from the derelict keys, and farming Golem and crafting this guy asap.

[Siubijeni]

If it spawned guaranteed Neurodes, I would go through all the effort of farming derelict keys, farming derelict keys from the derelict keys, and farming Golem and crafting this guy asap.

But it doesn't, and the likelihood of them giving it a guaranteed drop is slim to none. Especially not a rare drop like Neurodes. They wouldn't be so rare then, would they?

[Brimir]

The solution is so simple:

 

 - Turn it into an AoE curse-type ability. If an enemy dies when under the affect of it, they get the chance to drop bonus stuffz.

[Siubijeni]

The solution is so simple:

 

 - Turn it into an AoE curse-type ability. If an enemy dies when under the affect of it, they get the chance to drop bonus stuffz.

I'm going to go ahead and quote myself from a post in the official discussion: while many of us (myself included) would be content with such a change, I think that with Nekros we could be much more than content. His third ability does not have to be fixated upon loot drops, and honestly would be cooler if it weren't. The only real requirement is that it fit is supportive role and death theme, which my suggested Transfusion does.

[Brimir]

Naturally. However, if they are dead set on keeping the core mechanic of the ability, my suggestion would definitely be a good solution.

[Niinjiitsu]

i think the skill should stay, when using a weapon that uses alot of ammo, enough tho you have the mutation card on desecrate should stay i like it, you just have to get used to the timing of death. takes skill to loot the dead not just a spam skill. its all about timing and getting that multi kill with your gun or another person skill . right place right time . this skill is awesome

[Zadier]

Out of all your suggestions I personally like Dance of the Dead the most.  I've been giving this issue some consideration myself and came up with the following suggestion for a skill to replace Desecrate, while still keeping the spirit of the old skill if the devs really like it for whatever reason.\

 

Reaper's Harvest

Harvests the souls of dead and dying enemies to turn the tides of battle.

 

-Energy: 50/75 (depends on how the skill is balanced)

-Animation: Nekros charges necrotic energy in one hand and swings his arm, sending out a radial wave of energy.

-A medium sized AoE, not enough to hit a whole room, but not as tiny as Overheat.  Within the area of effect, all enemies with health below a certain % of their maximum is instantly killed and gives an extra benefit (detailed below).  Also detonates all corpses within range.

 

Additional Details:

 

Effect on living enemies:

-Instantly kills all enemies that are at below 9%/12%/15%/19% of their maximum health.  With focus, a maximum threshold of 25% health can be achieved.

-This is different from simply inflicting armor ignoring damage equivalent to X% of a target's health.  First of all, if the target is above the health threshold, they receive no damage whatsoever.  Secondly, this skill is unaffected by damage modifying buffs such as Molecular Prime and Roar.

-The way this is set up, the skill is not exceptionally overpowered at early levels like the "press 4 to win" skills, since it only kills enemies that are at a small fraction of their total health, at which point they are very easily killed quickly be any other method.  However, the skill will hopefully help Nekros players get more kills for Shadows of the Dead at the lower levels where massive damage AoEs dominate, and prevent Nekros players from getting a word in edgewise.

-On the other hand, the skill also scales very well at higher levels due to being based on max health percentage.  The skill will be invaluable in taking down the tougher bullet sponge enemies once enemy levels start getting truly ridiculous.

 

Aftereffects of kills:

I haven't really decided what benefit killing an enemy with this skill should actually give, so here's a list of the options.

a) Enemies killed by this skill drop extra items, functioning much like the existing Desecrate skill, but without being horribly situational.  This is the closest to the existing skill, and was how I originally envisioned it, as a new skill that still has aspects of the old which the devs and some players might want to keep.  It also fits the name Reaper's Harvest most, in my opinion.  You are reaping enemies to harvest items from their corpses.

b) If you like the idea of a life drain skill, the enemies could instead grant you a direct Health/Energy refill for each one killed by this skill.  There's plenty of ways to tweak this, you could make the refills apply only to health or energy if you want, and you could make it either affect only the user or benefit the entire squad.  Lots of options here.

c) If you don't like either of those, perhaps grant a buff to either the user only or to the entire squad for each enemy killed by this skill.  Increased Attack?  Rapid health regeneration?  Again, lots of options to tweak here if you decide to use this.

 

Corpse explosions:

-This is another aspect of the skill I'm not sure how to balance personally, so I'll just spew out a whole bunch of ideas about it again.  If you want, you could even remove this aspect of the skill entirely, and use only the previous two.

-Damage inflicted by corpse explosions will need careful balancing, to prevent it from becoming an even more broken Molecular Prime.  The utility of this varies wildly depending on the situation.  Under normal circumstances there are few corpses on the ground, making this largely negligible.  However, it can have great synergy with any skill that leaves a lot of unexploded/incinerated/disintegrated/shattered/mutilated bodies lying around.  Case in point, Rhino Stomp.  All those bodies in one place would turn this into a total nuke if the damage is too high.

-Another possibility is to make the explosions do little or no damage, but cause them to behave like the Infested Runners' explosion on death, namely the stagger effect, though maybe with a larger radius.  This would definitely be an interesting way to use any bodies on the ground.

-Maybe the corpses could even just have the same effect as killing a living enemy, a) extra drops, b) health/energy refill, or c) solo/team buff.

 

Anyway, your thoughts, everyone?

[Siubijeni]

I like it, +1 for you Zadier. And yeah, although Transfusion is my favorite of my suggestions, Dance of the Dead is probably a close second.

 

Corpse Explosions is probably a bad idea, for two reasons: one, it makes a skill with two already powerful effects (and is not an Ult) probably too powerful for realistic implementation. And two, Nekros already reminds a lot of us of the Diablo 2 Necromancer (his terror and shadows of the dead are very close to D2 abilities, and soul punch is quite reminiscent of the Necro's curses.), and giving him the ability to blow up corpses is just adding even more to that comparison.

 

But as for the ability itself, I would suggest a rebalance of your original statistics, because 25% seems a little high. I would suggest 6/9/12/15%, with a Focused maximum of 20%. Or potentially an ability unaffected by focus, but with a progression of 5/10/15/20%. Also, its secondary effect should not make it a healing ability as that intrudes upon Trinity's expertise. A damage or attack speed buff could be good, but I agree that the name Reaper's Harvest (and the overall flavor of Nekros as a support frame) lends itself to a loot-dropping effect.

[WondahBoah]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/105971-desecrate-replacer-soul-drain

don't mean to @#&*( my thread, but you might like it

[Jeetza]

Desecrate rework:

 

Life Steal- This is an AOE nuke that cause hands to come up in a set area and grab enemies slowing them and dealing medium damage, but heals Nekros and all other teammates nearby the spell. This ability could also allow Nekros to over heal himself his teammates to percentage over their max health. This would counteract Nekros's squishiness and help him support the team.

 

If the over heal mechanic is too much to work they could just remove it and slightly buff the damage.