The Problem(S) With Nekros' "ultimate"

[Genoscythe]

So, I have been playing nekros for a while now, formad him, got him fully modded for a caster/health/survivor build, and I must say, there is not much use for his fourth skill, Shadows of the Dead. There are a few problem that I have encountered when using it:

 

- Incredibly long casting time: While I was casting my SoD, my teammates had enough time to clear the room out already, also it also takes about 1 second to resurrect all enemies when the casting finished. This is way too long casting time for a way too bad reward. Also you can easily get shot while casting.

 

- AI here is not Artificial Intellingence but Artificial Incompetence, My shadows really seem to hate walls or ceilings, because thats what they attack most of the time. They also rarely move to enemies(only if they have melee weapons), just walk around randomly.

 

- My Shadows are only as strong as the enemies, what means: 12 shadows vs 24 enemies --> shadows are dead after 4 seconds, I spent 70 energy(Streamline ftw!) for nothing.

 

- No real utility, not in defense and not in offense: Why the hell should I take 4 seconds to cast that skill when a Rhino can CC all enemies in a 35 meter range and deal 1040 damage to them in only 1 second? Or a Nyx just casts chaos, or a Nova casts MP, yeah, I know "dont compare him to other frames etc..." but there is actually no point using this skill when playing with others, even a decoy creates a better distraction than his ult, and its only 25 energy.

 

- Also not good for soloing, other frames have better attacks/skills/stats, and thus make it easier.

 

-It only summons the enemies Nekros has killed last, also it resets after summoning, what makes squishy Nekros one of the most weapon reliant casters (or whatever he wants to be).

 

 

What comes out in the end is a skill that may pull a bit of aggro, not dealing any damage or lasting very long. I have found utility in skills like terrify or soulpunch, they may have their disadvantages too, but are cheaper and actually have more tactical use. I think an ultimate skill should stand for itself, but Nekros' ultimate is not very utile in most situations, and also has only low use in some special situations, Lets just face it: At the moment its a lackluster.

 

Now there is another problem: How will DE fix this skill? Faster asting? Removing the enemy cap? I think its just better to replace the skill completely, as a balancing process would take longer than just dumping the skill, but thats just my opinion, and I am sure that there are other ways too.

 

I really like Nekros' style, he is the most beautiful frame out there, the design is awesome, the animation set too, I think his abilities should match his coolness.

 

Just my 2 cents on this.

[NoeleVeerod]

Nekros' ultimate isn't as lackluster in my opinion, but it could surely use some refining, I agree on that.

 

The casting animation should actually be longer the more enemies you spawn. That would mean it would be longer at higher skill levels, but if you're going to summon, say, 10-12 undead enemies that seems a little reasonable. You can't summon them all in a fingersnap.

 

About levels... I believe the shadows should be higher in level, or at least be stronger (not MUCH stronger, maybe just a tiny bit). I also suggest that the skill should spawn a random number of enemies: example given, you have the skill at rank 0, it will spawn 6 to 8 enemies. Of course the range will increase as the mod rises in rank, with a rank 3 mod spawning, e.g., 12 to 15 shadows.

 

About shadows AI... completely agree! They are quite stupid, and keep shooting at obstacles. I'm sure the devs will already have heard this and are working on it, because nobody likes a useless sidekick, but alas, that is what these shadows are at its current state. Either that, or poor durability decoys. They don't seem to last very long, so a little increase in duration might help (again, not an excessive increase, or we're going to render the mod broken).

 

 

Nekros doesn't look like a Solo Warframe, but that is fine in my opinion. Not all Warframes fit all roles, there are some who are great for Soloing, while some others are not. The only problem comes with Nekros being difficult to employ in a team with a given role, because his skills don't seem to rely on teamwork either (except maybe for the Desecrate scavenging ability).

[MrGrae]

I can't argue with any of these points, though I am curious as to what you would replace it with if you had the chance?

[Angius]

If AI would be better (same problem with shooting walls)

If they will actually follow you, not just stand in place

If they will have slight buff (chance to evade projectiles? I mean, they are built from nanobots, bullets shouldn't do full damage)

And finally if casting time will be shorter, or if Nekros will be indestructible for a moment (or just will receive lower damage, as he is surrounded by nanobots)

This skill will be one of the best skills in this game.

[Bleak_Advent]

I don't know about squishy...currently sitting at about 660 shield/650 health on my Nekros and I still have room to buff it out more, though admittedly it will cost me a lot to get it maxed.

 

Shadows of the Dead is fine to me. I use summons as meat shields, which allows for some more tactical weapon play.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Bleak_Advent

[Dracosaber]

I don't know about squishy...currently sitting at about 660 shield/650 health on my Nekros and I still have room to buff it out more, though admittedly it will cost me a lot to get it maxed.

 

Shadows of the Dead is fine to me. I use summons as meat shields, which allows for some more tactical weapon play.

 

I must respectfully disagree. He is pretty squishy, and weak stat wise. In a way, it makes sense considering his appearance and the fact that he is a necromancer, meaning he would fit "caster" extremely well. Unfortunately, he has low energy as well, which is unacceptable, TBH. Hopefully, the devs will take a look at it.

 

I think the main reason Nekros is weak right now is because they didn't want another "NERF X!!!" fiasco. It's easier to buff a bit than nerf, less people complain about buffs when they are actually needed and aren't game breaking (which, from what I've seen, they rarely are). 

 

I've played with Nekros, and I admit, although I love his powers, they are all pretty weak and buggy right now. Little doubt that DE is working on it right now considering all the feedback, But for right now, his skills are rather lackluster compared to most every other frame. I hate comparing, but like OP said, most frames have skills that do the objective better. 

 

However, I think that can be fixed with some tweaks. Soul Punch and Terrify need a slight buff, Terrify more so than Soul Punch (has anyone noticed the debuff it's supposed to give? I'm not sure I have). Desecrate....well, it could be a good skill, but because of the way corpses disappear in this game, it probably will never be.That's not horrible per say, as a few frames have a niche skill that becomes useless or is just unused at some point. Still, I'd rather see it become more useful. (Also, why is Terrify a 2 skill and Desecrate a 3 skill? They should be switched, I keep messing up which one I cast because it's counter-intuitive, but maybe that's just me, lol)

 

Finally, Shadows of the Dead. I love the skill, but at the same time, I can't help agreeing with OP after playing. However, like Angius proposed, a few buffing tweaks like some invulnerability or damage reduction during casting (a problem several frame need to have addressed, like Volt), better AI (including them following the user), and the buffing of the strength of the clones in some way, would make Nekros' ultimate on par with the frames while being fun to use.

 

Honestly, Nekros is fun. Even with buffs, will he be able to handle T3 Defense (the measuring stick for many people apparently)? Maybe not, but he'll still be fun to play with. And heck, if they buff his skills, he very well could be useful in very high levels. SotD scales infinitely with the enemy, that's it's main draw, so if it gets better, I could see Nekros be extremely powerful ("Death is his playground" could actually work, lol). 

 

We'll just have to see how DE works on him. 

[kamimegurine]

What does this skill needs is some commands to give orders to your shadow units, basic squad orders:

 

1) Protect user

2) Spreed out

3) Stay or hold position (stay to defend the area they are)

4) Follow

5) Attack this target! (nice for bosses)

[Genoscythe]

I can't argue with any of these points, though I am curious as to what you would replace it with if you had the chance?

 

I would say he needs a skill that also deals moderate damage to enemies, and has some summoning potential like

 

500-700 Dmg to enemies in a 10 meter radius, each enemy is marked, if the enemy dies in the next X seconds, he will be resurrected as a shadow that lasts for X seconds. So we dont have an ultimate OP roomcleaner ult, but a mix of Dmg and summoning. Necro style, still classy.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Genoscythe

[NoeleVeerod]

I would say he needs a skill that also deals moderate damage to enemies, and has some summoning potential like

 

500-700 Dmg to enemies in a 10 meter radius, each enemy is marked, if the enemy dies in the next X seconds, he will be resurrected as a shadow that lasts for X seconds. So we dont have an ultimate OP roomcleaner ult, but a mix of Dmg and summoning. Necro style, still classy.

 

Or... we could have Shadows of the Dead to do both. I mean, resurrect last X enemies as shadows, and for the duration of the skill any enemy killed will be resurrected as a shadow that lasts for half the duration of its siblings. To avoid having this skill turning a whole map into minions, you could have only enemies killed by the shadows being returned to an undead status.

It is a good suggestion nonetheless, although I would avoid having to redo the skill from scratch, since as it is it's not half bad, it just needs to be improved.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Vintovka

[Dasmir]

I agree about the shadows need to be smarter and basic commands also a UI displaying the amount of souls collects will very nice too.

 

Nekros + Shade = all you problems solved about getting nuked while casting.

 

Also think about this when you compare Shadow of the Death and Chaos, theres a BIG  DIFF about a army of TOXIC ACIENTS killing for YOU and a bunch of TOXIC acients fighthing each other AROUND you. Same thing with mine ospreys and acients HEALERS.

 

Fun fact: Shield ospreys gives shields to yours ghost too.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Dasmir

[Genoscythe]

Or... we could have Shadows of the Dead to do both. I mean, resurrect last X enemies as shadows, and for the duration of the skill any enemy killed will be resurrected as a shadow that lasts for half the duration of its siblings. To avoid having this skill turning a whole map into minions, you could have only enemies killed by the shadows being returned to an undead status.

It is a good suggestion nonetheless, although I would avoid having to redo the skill from scratch, since as it is it's not half bad, it just needs to be improved.

This is why DE needs to bring in altrnative skills for each frame, this would make things cooler, as those who like it can keep it and those who dont just have to get the new skills, also brings more customization.

[SweepTheLeg]

I agree with the some of it, but disagree hardcore with other parts.

 

Yes:

 

Cast time is long (~4 seconds)

AI isn't the best

You are vulnerable while casting

 

Hardcore No:

 

Not good for solo

Useless

Damage ultimates are better for solo play than creating 9 moving distractions that can protect you and your objectives

[Genoscythe]

I agree with the some of it, but disagree hardcore with other parts.

 

Yes:

 

Cast time is long (~4 seconds)

AI isn't the best

You are vulnerable while casting

 

Hardcore No:

 

Not good for solo

Useless

Damage ultimates are better for solo play than creating 9 moving distractions that can protect you and your objectives

 

Depends on what you solo, all objectives where elimination is the target can be solo'd better with other frames(rhino, nova, ash) maybe you can def a bit better with nekros, but its also useless on most defense maps with enemies that are not infested, as Nekros' has almost no killspeed and will get overwhelmed earlier or later. An ultimate should be useful in a majority of situations, and if you compare it to other ultimates, it does not match their power.

 

The thing is: Nekros could need a little tiny bit more love and he would be perfectly balanced to actually match a normal difficulty in a game. But as most other warframes are GODmode at the moment (especially rhino or nova), Nekros seems just too weak, and DE wont probably nerf the other frames, but just buff Nekros to match the others.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Genoscythe

[SweepTheLeg]

Depends on what you solo, all objectives where elimination is the target can be solo'd better with other frames(rhino, nova, ash) maybe you can def a bit better with nekros, but its also useless on most defense maps with enemies that are not infested, as Nekros' has almost no killspeed and will get overwhelmed earlier or later. An ultimate should be useful in a majority of situations, and if you compare it to other ultimates, it does not match their power.

 

The thing is: Nekros could need a little tiny bit more love and he would be perfectly balanced to actually match a normal difficulty in a game. But as most other warframes are GODmode at the moment (especially rhino or nova), Nekros seems just too weak, and DE wont probably nerf the other frames, but just buff Nekros to match the others.

Not everything needs to be godmode. Pretty much everything in the game is weak compared to Nova's damage output because MPrime is thoroughly broken and Rhino is all around easy mode. I never use either one of them.

 

Nekros is fine for soloing (just about) anything. If you don't think so, I have some videos to prove otherwise.

[Genoscythe]

Not everything needs to be godmode. Pretty much everything in the game is weak compared to Nova's damage output because MPrime is thoroughly broken and Rhino is all around easy mode. I never use either one of them.

 

Nekros is fine for soloing (just about) anything. If you don't think so, I have some videos to prove otherwise.

I never said it is impossible to solo with Nekros, but if you consider him as solo frame he is much weaker than others if its about soloing, you can solo (just about) any mission with Frost/Nyx/Rhino/Nova too, you dont need videos to see that, also please remember that this is a coop-game. What role does Nekros have in a group? Looter?

[Brimir]

The problem is that the clones get an exact copy of the original AI. This is fine for Infested and Corpus who like to charge into close combat. The Grineer, however, are useless. They are too cowardly, often fleeing back into a different room before taking cover forever. They don't draw aggro or kill stuff for you. Then they also try to shoot enemies in different rooms by firing at the wall. /facepalm

[SweepTheLeg]

I never said it is impossible to solo with Nekros, but if you consider him as solo frame he is much weaker than others if its about soloing, you can solo (just about) any mission with Frost/Nyx/Rhino/Nova too, you dont need videos to see that, also please remember that this is a coop-game. What role does Nekros have in a group? Looter?

Support.

 

Crowd Control, Healing, Diversions. 

 

Rhino is good at soloing all the things that are already easy to do with a single good gun. Nova is decent at soloing in the event she doesn't get shot.

[Genoscythe]

Support.

 

Crowd Control, Healing, Diversions. 

 

Rhino is good at soloing all the things that are already easy to do with a single good gun. Nova is decent at soloing in the event she doesn't get shot.

 

So gimme a reason to choose a Nekros instead of Trinity if you need a healer. Also, you pretty much dont need these things Nekros can do, another Rhino instead would just fit better for almost every situtation.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Genoscythe

[Brimir]

So gimme a reason to choose a Nekros instead of Trinity if you need a healer. Also, you pretty much dont need these things Nekros can do, another Rhino instead would just fit better for almost every situtation.

 

But that is an argument that applies to pretty much every other Warframe in the game, except Nova...so...

[Genoscythe]

 

But that is an argument that applies to pretty much every other Warframe in the game, except Nova...so...

 

The thing is: if Nekros could do a game relevant thing better than other warframes, it would be ok, but as it seems he has no role and is pretty much unsatisfying. Like we have a healer, we have a tank, we have a damage dealer, we have a balanced frame, we have a stealth frame, and what is Nekros?

[SweepTheLeg]

The thing is: if Nekros could do a game relevant thing better than other warframes, it would be ok, but as it seems he has no role and is pretty much unsatisfying. Like we have a healer, we have a tank, we have a damage dealer, we have a balanced frame, we have a stealth frame, and what is Nekros?

 

Nekros is a balanced frame in terms of SUPPORT.

 

You don't need one frame to fit one role and that's it. This isn't an RPG and they aren't really classes.

 

It's like playing a MOBA game. There's not one tank and one carry and one assassin. There's a variety of them that do different things.

 

Variety, that's what keeps games fresh and interesting. If Nekros was another boring caster, I wouldn't play him. It doesn't make sense for him to be a tank and the only real tank, base stats aside, is Rhino anyways.

 

Trinity has Blessing, but that's an ult and I never see Trinities use anything besides Link and Blessing. Nekros Desecrate summons health orbs that can be grabbed at any time and that synergize well with mods for other players that use Equilibrium. It also spawns ammo, oxygen in survival and energy orbs. 

 

He has the utility of Loki and Trinity at the same time, that's a good frame.

[Genoscythe]

Nekros is a balanced frame in terms of SUPPORT.

 

You don't need one frame to fit one role and that's it. This isn't an RPG and they aren't really classes.

 

It's like playing a MOBA game. There's not one tank and one carry and one assassin. There's a variety of them that do different things.

 

Variety, that's what keeps games fresh and interesting. If Nekros was another boring caster, I wouldn't play him. It doesn't make sense for him to be a tank and the only real tank, base stats aside, is Rhino anyways.

 

Trinity has Blessing, but that's an ult and I never see Trinities use anything besides Link and Blessing. Nekros Desecrate summons health orbs that can be grabbed at any time and that synergize well with mods for other players that use Equilibrium. It also spawns ammo, oxygen in survival and energy orbs. 

 

He has the utility of Loki and Trinity at the same time, that's a good frame.

 

As I have already said: If every frame would play like him, the game would actually be balanced, but as they are pretty much gonna buff all other frames even more, he will be left behind and people will play only because of his style.

 

He has neither the utility of loki nor the utility of trinity. Nekros desecrate summons 3-4 health orbs per cast, and only if there are corpses, for 50 energy, thats 60 to 80 health everyone has to grab by himself. Also what does Nekros have in common with Loki? he cant even keep the aggro away from something, terrify has a power in use as long as there is at least one enemy under its effect already. His desecrate is a total fail if you see it as a skill, should be replaced with a life siphon in my opinion. Nobody should have an extra-loot button, better make it a sentinel mod or a warframe mod.

 

Ugh, wasnt this topic about Nekros' 4? I think the only point we agree is that we dont agree each other. I get your point, still I have a different opinion, lets just hope DE makes the best of it.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Genoscythe