Making Stamina Useful By Improving The Mechanics That Use It

[LeoAtKnight]

::WARNING:: The forums recently ate the BBcode in my thread. I am working on restoring it. I apologize for any unorganization or thread-ception.

Stamina is currently a system that isn't relevant to the game. Why? Because it isn't important. True, but WHY is it not important?

Because the mechanics that use Stamina are broken and useless.

In this topic I will share some ideas that I find will help make stamina useful resource, without making it a hindrance to maintain. Now please keep in mind I know many, if not all suggestions here have already been suggested somewhere else before; however, what I usually do not find are numbers, hence this thread. That, and I've been meaning to make this post for somewhere around two weeks, but never felt like it until now.

• i- First let me start with Stamina itself:

As you may have noticed on the Arsenal page, every Warframe has 8 Stamina. I hate decimals, so let's cosmetically change this to fit the real changes I'm about to suggest. Let's take our 8 stamina, and turn it into 800. That looks better!

Stamina should have a 0.5 second delay before regenerating, and regenerate at 120 stamina per second (15% of base).

Sprinting and wall-running should consume 80 stamina per second as well.

• ii- Stamina and Fatigue:

When you run out of stamina, what happens? You are unable to use some actions, and have to let it fill to at least 1% before performing any actions. This feels wrong, and I instead feel we should use a fatigue system.

What I am suggesting is that when we use a maneuver and it uses more stamina than we currently have, a red bar overlaps our stamina bar relevant to the amount of stamina you went over. An example of this is how "Star wars: The Force Unleashed" handled Force Energy.

A more descriptive example,

Say you currently have 100 stamina, and dodge uses 200. When you dodge the full 200 applies, and you now have -100 (negative 100) stamina, visible as a red bar where your stamina should be. (See stamina pictures above)

While fatigued you are unable to perform any actions that consume stamina until you come out of fatigued state. Being fatigued does not debuff any regenerative statistics, it only does the one thing I mentioned here, which is preventing you from further using stamina until it goes green again.

• iii- Dodging:

Dodging recently had a buff, and I appreciate it. It seems to give around the same damage reduction as blocking, but the thing is DODGING shouldn't be another BLOCK. Dodging should have COMPLETE INVULNERABILITY but ONLY FOR A SHORT TIME.

I suggest dodging should have anywhere from 0.25-0.35 seconds of invulnerability somewhere around the beginning of the dodge. If anyone here plays Monster Hunter or PSO2 you'll know this is just enough time to dodge most big attacks, if you're good. We should have mods (or a mod) to extend the invulnerability time, capping to around 3/4 of the full animation time. Any more than that is overkill and would make dodging the safest form of travel in combat, and a little too effective.

I say this dodge should consume 200 stamina (25% of base), but that's probably because I play Monster Hunter too much.

I am aware if you lag a lot this dodge would be pretty much useless to you, but that's how it is in just about any game.

• iv- Blocking:

Blocking doesn't give enough damage reduction, and consumes stamina in an awkward way. Damage mitigation should be much higher, and blocking should NOT CONSUME STAMINA OVER TIME, but rather stop stamina from regenerating and let it be chunked every time you successfully block an attack.

Blocking should make your Tenno face your camera by default, but have the option to turn that off. Blocking should not restrict movement, or slow your characters running speed. Blocking should also negate stagger and knockdown when you successfully block an attack, even if your block is "Broken" (Read about broken blocks below).

For blocking purposes weapons and attacks should be classed into four different damage types.

Light projectile: The damage type for most bullet weapons. Shooting a blocking person with this type of attack should be mitigated by 75% (maybe more). 25% of damage done BEFORE mitigation is dealt to stamina.

Heavy Projectile: AKA explosives. This damage type should be mitigated by a small amount, to emphasize dodging. 25% damage reduction. 50% of damage taken BEFORE mitigation is dealt to stamina.

Light Melee: Basic attacks done by most enemies and pressing the E button and slide attacks for Tenno. 90%-100% Damage reduction. 25% of damage done BEFORE mitigation is dealt to stamina.

Heavy Melee: Powerful melee like J2K's scythe attack or Grineer Heavy's ground slam, and Tenno charge attacks, jump attacks, and wall attacks. 50% damage reduction. 50% damage BEFORE mitigation is dealt to stamina.

What happens if my stamina runs out while blocking?

Should this happen your block will be "Broken", triggering a special animation of your character's weapon being thrown upwards. HOWEVER, this should not be a form of CC. No slows or any form of stunning should occur, only a special animation to say "Hey I can't sprint!"

I also feel blocking should be usable with other forms of movement as well.

We should be able to sprint, wall-run, or even jump with our block up. This may be costly to our stamina, but it adds loads to offensive maneuvers!

Utilizing these mechanics,

I feel that stamina will become a versatile resource for both offensive and defensive playstyles, and make stamina builds viable.

Having high stamina would allow you to get in and out quickly, mitigate damage to almost nothing, or truly nothing at all if you dodge properly!

It will also have enough importance to keep track of without being a major hindrance to rushers (I know that the fatigue system would cut down on zorencoptering a little, but it can be mostly remedied with a stam regen mod).

Update Info:

10/5/2013

Updated stamina mechanics section-

Recommended regen delay set to 0.5/s

Recovered post from a forum mess-up, where all my BBcode disappeared.

TL;DR good stuff.

Leave comments and questions below!

Edited October 6, 2013 by LeoAtKnight

[Darkfreack]

I Support this fully, its a reasonable and basic mechanic. It really is what most games have, and for a reason too. IT FREAKING WORKS!

 

p.s Great screenshots btw :D

Edited September 22, 2013 by Darkfreack

[LeoAtKnight]

Thanks!

To be fairly honest, I spent more time trying to get the screenshots and cropping them in paint (Where did my photoshop go?) than actually writing this post.

To be specific, 15 videos, each about 5 minutes in length, and 13 missions.

Now for sleep.. It's late.. Zzzzzzz....

*Edit

Did a last minute edit on the OP regarding blocking.

Just so you don't have to sift through that enormous wall I'll restate it here.

"Blocking should also negate stagger and knockdown when you successfully block an attack, even if your block is "Broken". "

Edited September 22, 2013 by LeoAtKnight

[Aure7]

For rolling I'll just leave this here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/108086-betterfaster-rolling-animation-gif-example-move-to-animation-feedback-please/#entry1250287
 

I am sure everyone will agree that we also need a roll that is even faster and covers larger distance.

 

And in general I don't see how community won't CRY AND WHINE ON THE FORUMS AGAIN when something like this get implemented. I am personally always open for these changes but there will always be rage and complaints from the rushers. "OH I QUET DIS SOOPED GAME IT SUUCKS CUZ UR FAT NINJA" 

Edited September 22, 2013 by Aure7

[zergla]

well written and a doable propsition. I support this very much.

[zygfrid]

Blocking should just redirect all damage to stamina. People will have a choice to trade their Shield and Health mods for both Stamina mods. Stamina regenerates faster, but requires action from a player to block attacks. Or one can choose to wear everything and be useless.

Also quick and easy improvement to block that will make it useful would be making it stop stagger and hard to avoid knockdowns like heavy gunner's AoE he uses in close combat. It would be a great boon to everyone who tries to kill them in melee.

If only blocking also redirected damage from ancient's poison clouds to stamina, I might have considered picking Stamina mods over Shield and Health for a melee build, especially for Loki warframe. Of course blocking shouldn't prevent you from wall running, jumping and shouldn't slow, otherwise it's better to use that stamina to run to closest cover.

Edited September 22, 2013 by zygfrid

[Darkfreack]

bumb to keep up near top  :D

[ThousandDogs]

Serious question about Stamina: It seems to only have use for melee and getting to melee range without dying. How can that be reconciled in a game where most of the fighting is done with guns? Can it be reconciled? I mean, a lot of this attempts to make melee more appealing because it gives you options that help you not die while using it, but does that really work when the main issue is that everyone that's trying to kill you is doing so with a ranged attack?

 

Am I just completely wrong about all of this? Because it really feels like the best usage of stamina currently is to run to the nearest large object that you can put between your body and enemy bullets.

[LeoAtKnight]

Blocking should just redirect all damage to stamina. People will have a choice to trade their Shield and Health mods for both Stamina mods. Stamina regenerates faster, but requires action from a player to block attacks. Or one can choose to wear everything and be useless.

I had considered this, but when I thought about it I remembered people could do thousands of damage in a single hit! This would kill your entire stamina in one shot, even with mods!

I tried to find a happy medium that would attempt to balance both PvE and PvP. Of course I realized that in the beginning Blocking would be pretty OP, with enemies only dealing 10 or so in a single shot, but maybe that can be one of the ways this game scales in difficulty?

 

Serious question about Stamina: It seems to only have use for melee and getting to melee range without dying. How can that be reconciled in a game where most of the fighting is done with guns? Can it be reconciled? I mean, a lot of this attempts to make melee more appealing because it gives you options that help you not die while using it, but does that really work when the main issue is that everyone that's trying to kill you is doing so with a ranged attack?

 

Am I just completely wrong about all of this? Because it really feels like the best usage of stamina currently is to run to the nearest large object that you can put between your body and enemy bullets.

This is a legitimate concern, and with the way the game currently plays it is best to slip behind a box and hide until the bullets stop raining. So, yes you are correct. This will not fix the issue that soft cover is our best friend. I only hope these changes will at least make these mechanics usable, even if only in certain situations.

[BladesGenesis]

Not only is this a well written idea, it is an idea that makes PERFECT sense.  Also, you would think that DE would be looking at other successful games for some ideas/creativity and the examples you listed pretty much use stamina is a pretty useful way.  Anyways, have a +1 and let this be a hopeful addition to the game.

[BloodStainedSins]

Great idea I hope to see it implemented. +1 I hope the DE's see this and consider it.

[litlit]

OP: most of your ideas are good, but I think your version of the fatigue system would be even worse than what we already have.

IMO, certain actions, such as blocking and rolling, should not be useable if stamina is too low. However, melee and sprinting (and therefore, by extension, sliding) should always be useable, regardless of stamina level. Sprinting should still drain stamina, but sprint can be used even at 0 stamina.

This grants players great freedom of movement, allowing them to always be exactly as mobile as they want to be. It also encourages players to manage their stamina: they would need to balance mobility against having enough reserve stamina to block and/or roll. The trick is, as you have noticed, that blocking and rolling must changed to be worth using. I like your dodge roll idea, but I prefer the block changes suggested here to yours. Regardless, the most important thing about any change to block and roll is that they need to allow players to avoid staggers and knockdowns if used correctly. That by itself, with no other changes to mechanics as they exist now, would make both blocking and rolling wildly popular -- give players more tools to avoid disables, and we'll love them.

Edited September 22, 2013 by litlit

[LeoAtKnight]

OP: most of your ideas are good, but I think your version of the fatigue system would be even worse than what we already have.

IMO, certain actions, such as blocking and rolling, should not be useable if stamina is too low. However, melee and sprinting (and therefore, by extension, sliding) should always be useable, regardless of stamina level. Sprinting should still drain stamina, but sprint can be used even at 0 stamina.

This grants players great freedom of movement, allowing them to always be exactly as mobile as they want to be. It also encourages players to manage their stamina: they would need to balance mobility against having enough reserve stamina to block and/or roll. The trick is, as you have noticed, that blocking and rolling must changed to be worth using. I like your dodge roll idea, but I prefer the block changes suggested here to yours. Regardless, the most important thing about any change to block and roll is that they need to allow players to avoid staggers and knockdowns if used correctly. That by itself, with no other changes to mechanics as they exist now, would make both blocking and rolling wildly popular -- give players more tools to avoid disables, and we'll love them.

The idea behind the fatigue system was to make a restriction where you have to pay attention to your stamina, and to make a "limit" to how much you can spam. It will in almost no way affect rushing because most rushers can keep their stamina above max with the current system anyways (I know I can, and I don't even need mods); and my idea has actually BUFFED stamina regeneration. Fast based combat does not mean we need to be running at every moment, but rather when the action happens you have little time to react and think. At least, that's how I always viewed it.

So in conclusion, my fatigue system will have players thinking of their next move before they make it. I understand the "fatigue" can seem restricting (well, it kind of is) when it runs out with you not being able to sprint, but if you could sprint at all times it just makes it easier to get away when you've been outplayed.

Melee on the other hand, could maybe do away with consuming stamina. That, however, is an offensive mechanic that I may cover later in Warframe's life.

Regarding blocking,

I remember that thread, and somewhat disagreed. The thing about timing in online games is it is horribly reliant on latency. I wanted a simple "hold me down for benefit" button, not a "spam me because your net or enemy's sucks" button. I know, that is a harsh way to put it, but that is essentially what it becomes. Like deflecting kamehameha waves in Dragon Ball: Raging Blast, where you just hold block and spam left and right on your analog stick, hoping you'll deflect this time.

However I do agree some mods should have been melee weapon mods instead of warframe mods. People always complain (myself included) there is no build diversity on weapons (and in general), but this is especially true on melee weapons. Adding block mods would give us something more to build on.

And of course disabling disables is another thing I had tried to address here, with blocking negating stagger and knockdown. I also intend dodging to do the same with its invulnerability frames.

Not arguing with you of course, we both have our opinions. I'm just defending my post and voicing my thought behind what I wrote.

Edited September 23, 2013 by LeoAtKnight

[BloodStainedSins]

Bumping to the top so the DE's might see.

[Darkfreack]

Bump again :D

[shut]

Loving it!

 

Stamina should have a 1 second delay before regenerating

Except for this.

In a fast-paced game such as this, a full second is an incredibly long time for something that gets used as much as Stamina. It makes sliding for stamina recovery almost completely useless because unless you're going down a steep downwards slope, you'll hit crawling speed before your stamina even begins to refill itself.

[Denvert]

I've been thinking the same for blocking. Its mechanics should be changed in the way you mentioned. Maybe slow sprinting backwards and sidewards during block, as it is on the one hand hard to do and in reality significantly slower than forward sprinting (don't come me with that reality in space ninja world yeah yeah...) and on the other hand, sprinting backwards whilst blocking would be a maybe too good way to escape harsh situations. It gives you the feel that you have to decide, when to block and when to release to quickly jump behind cover.

 

Also I find the stamina recharge delay really okay. Without delay like before, you could install quick rest and see the bar running down slower while sprinting, as the stamina was constantly recharging "against" the decrease from sprinting. Thus, if you increased the recharge speed, it also decreased you effective sprint cost, making Marathon more or less still useless. Now you have a use for both, Marathon and Quick Rest. Keep the delay as it is now. It prevents excessive use of stamina, making it rather valuable, but still is short enough to not force you to constantly watch your stamina bar.

 

It also bugs me, that you consume stamina while moving in the air as you have sprint toggled. So I can either hold W and further consume stamina during the jump or release it, reach the same width and get my stamina recharged a bit. While in air, you shouldn't drain stamina at all.

[LeoAtKnight]

Loving it!

 

Except for this.

In a fast-paced game such as this, a full second is an incredibly long time for something that gets used as much as Stamina. It makes sliding for stamina recovery almost completely useless because unless you're going down a steep downwards slope, you'll hit crawling speed before your stamina even begins to refill itself.

It's a one second delay in the current state of the game. o_o

But then again, a fair amount of people HAVE discussed the delay is quite long as it is right now.

I don't feel it is too long, however everyone is entitled to their opinions, and DE does not need to implement this exactly as I explained. Should it actually be a problem, of course it could be adjusted. But it should have a delay, most certainly, otherwise going over your stamina limit would no longer be dangerous.

 

It also bugs me, that you consume stamina while moving in the air as you have sprint toggled. So I can either hold W and further consume stamina during the jump or release it, reach the same width and get my stamina recharged a bit. While in air, you shouldn't drain stamina at all.

This has been a huge concern for me ever since wall-running has been implemented. Jumping also uses stamina for some reason, and I hope to see that removed as well. Although while it is a little peeve of mine, it is not the point of this thread.

I do agree though..

[BloodStainedSins]

Bump it like you love it.

[LeoAtKnight]

Bump it like you love it.

Bump oh baby I love it~ <3

[Methanoid]

im thinking that asides from just making you a smaller target, maybe even crouching could marginally reduce your weapon recoil by maybe a 3rd but consume small amounts of stamina per shot as a penalty for basically firing while in whats essentially a stress position.

 

and yeah liking the whole write up.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Methanoid

[LeoAtKnight]

im thinking that asides from just making you a smaller target, maybe even crouching could marginally reduce your weapon recoil by maybe a 3rd but consume small amounts of stamina per shot as a penalty for basically firing while in whats essentially a stress position.

 

and yeah liking the whole write up.

You know that's actually an interesting idea.

I don't know about making guns consume stamina with shots by crouching, however reducing the amount of stamina consumed by crouching when blocking would make an interesting mechanic. You would have to decide between being mobile but using more stamina, or having a slower but more grounded position.

I also agree crouching should reduce weapon recoil.

I know many people argue that this is a fast-paced game, but it seems these people do not realize "Fast-paced" does not mean "running around at all times." Lost Planet is considered a fast paced shooter, and you use soft cover whenever you need to heal. Vanquish is also a fast paced shooter, and it is completely revolved around a cover system. What determines if the game is fast paced is to what level your reaction speeds must be at.

But I digress. That is another topic for another day I suppose.

[Methanoid]

im a fan of getting somethign in return for sacrificing something, so gaining lower recoil when crouching to me seems a good idea, i just have no idea whats a suitable tradeoff in return.

 

and yeah, i think the fast paced tag is simply because its so easy to just run past tons of stuff without having any downside, the "2-man door lock" thing is nice as is the zone lockdown till unlocked, but tbh maybe each faction of enemy needs a new mob that has a chance to appear that needs to be killed in order to progress, until he/it is killed your trapped and every normal mob present could buff the defenses of the new mob so he cant just be powered down and largly ignored, forcing the group to kill all the mobs then the new mob allowing you to carry on.

 

meh probably all sorts of ways to slow things down, i suppose something will emerge eventually.

[lautalocos]

really great idea. 1+

 

did you think about different weapons having different blocking? as an example, longswords being really good at blocking and dual weapons being really bad, or something like that.

 

i too think that dodging speed should be affected by the warframe running speed, so that squshier but fast warframes have an advantage over the hard to kill ones.

[LeoAtKnight]

To be honest I hadn't given that much thought to different weapon types acting differently when blocking. I suppose I should also look into this to give other weapon types more to them besides certain play styles.

The basic idea though behind this post was to generalize the mechanics into something more all-round useful, but now that some time has passed I should look into working on a more in-depth system that covers multiple styles of play.

Although, frames having various dodging speeds doesn't sit well with me. Having to balance all those animations and invulnerability frames would be cumbersome. This is one area I'd prefer to be generalized.

I do see your point about squishier frames needing something to keep themselves alive, but I feel that is something better handled by powers, rather than dodging.

That's purely my opinion though. If DE can find a way to make it work, then by all means go ahead and make everything different.