Melee Balance

[Volt_Cruelerz]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlWVt6vp3-YWdHZJRTBvRTBrNGNrb3dNbEZsc0tZVHc#gid=15

 

The Galatine finally got me to create damage graphs for melee with each weapon built in whichever way is most beneficial for it.  I don't think I really need to explain what the graphs imply regarding the relation between melee weapons.

 

Disclaimer: the charge time of the Ether Reaper was unlisted in the wiki so I was forced to estimate.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Eciria]

Yeah the Galatine is so over-powered I don't even know where to begin.

 

 

Not saying that's SUPER bad, but still, holy sh*t.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The galatine's charge felt more like 3 seconds, or 2.5, gonna have to time it a few times though

 

Nope it's about 1.5 or 2ish with mods.

Edited September 28, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Scherhardt]

Darn sad about this. 

[Gripheon]

The galatine is boss from what ive seen so far, though it does have that big &#! charge time...

 

so far its one of the fiew melee weapons viable lategame at least for a decent period.

 

IMO its pretty good where its at... the problem is is that it outclasses all other heavy melees built for charge attacks. (damage wise anyways, you could probably get 2 charge attacks from orthos or orthos prime at the same general amount of damage)

 

so its not OP per say, its just that the other melee weapons need some loving stat changes..

[LazyKnight]

Yeah the Galatine is so over-powered I don't even know where to begin.

Considering how risky melee is not even Galatine DPS is worth the risk. Melee needs an overhaul, but I doubt that it will get one.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Considering how risky melee is not even Galatine DPS is worth the risk. Melee needs an overhaul, but I doubt that it will get one.

True.  Even the "OP" Galatine pales in comparison to the Soma's 13.5k DPS and its single-shot damage is substantially lower than the Lanka.

 

On paper, it seems like it's not that bad of a balance because the Galatine can hit five targets, but even so...

[GottFaust]

Your formulas are a bit off for the charge DPS there. The correct one would be something like: (x*(1.0/(y+(1.0/z))) where x is the charge damage, y is the charge time, and z is the swing speed.

Also, the Galatine has a ~1.7 base charge time.

Some examples of the correct unmodded Charge DPS:

Orthos Prime = (200*(1.0/(0.5+(1.0/1.3))))=157.5758

Galatine = (400*(1.0/(1.7+(1.0/1.4))))=165.6804

Edited September 28, 2013 by GottFaust

[Lady_Khaos]

I'm just wondering if Galatine will get the nerf, or the Soma Solution (locked behind a huge mastery wall)

Edited September 28, 2013 by Khaos_Zand3r

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Your formulas are a bit off for the charge DPS there. The correct one would be something like: (x*(1.0/(y+(1.0/z))) where x is the charge damage, y is the charge time, and z is the swing speed.

Also, the Galatine has a ~1.7 base charge time.

I am aware, but the time taken by swings is not available.  There was a time when it was just the same as the default swing and would even scale with Fury, but that was changed.  It is also a relatively low amount so I ended up just having to ignore it.

 

Regarding the 1.7 time, I figured I would be safer to underestimate its power than to overestimate since I don't know of anyone who has precisely measured it yet.

 

 

I'm just wondering if Galatine will get the nerf, or the Soma Solution (locked behind a huge mastery wall)

Honestly, if you consider how weak melee is in general, the Galatine might just be balanced or even a bit weak.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Paradoxbomb]

I'm going to have to be one of those "don't nerf new weapon, buff other stuff" guys in this case, cause let's face it, save for 3 or 4 unique weapons, melee is just abhorrent past level 40+. If the Galatine is as OP as everyone says, I think that's a GOOD thing for melee.

[GottFaust]

I am aware, but the time taken by swings is not available. There was a time when it was just the same as the default swing and would even scale with Fury, but that was changed. It is also a relatively low amount so I ended up just having to ignore it.

Regarding the 1.7 time, I figured I would be safer to underestimate its power than to overestimate since I don't know of anyone who has precisely measured it yet.

See this video courtesy of Phoenix86:

A small video comparing charging speeds:

The charge time is basically precisely 1.7 seconds and the swing speed is directly in line with the standard swing speed.

Edit: I also added some example calculations to the previous post: your baseline values over-estimate its DPS by a lot.

Edited September 28, 2013 by GottFaust

[Volt_Cruelerz]

See this video courtesy of Phoenix86:

The charge time is basically precisely 1.7 seconds and the swing speed is directly in line with the standard swing speed.

Edit: I also added some example calculations to the previous post: your baseline values over-estimate its DPS by a lot.

I'll update the data sheet.

 

EDIT: updated.  Let me know if you see any more discrepancies.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Let's start with melee always being bad since U7. Right now the only usable melee weapons for high level gameplay (e.g. Void III) are heavy weapons like Fragor and Orthos. Nobody dares using longswords, daggers and dual daggers (maybe except Fang Prime) at the moment and I well damn understand them. I am not saying that Galatine is OP nor it isn't, yeah, it feels pretty powerful and rewarding - that's how melee weapons should work: high risk - high reward.

[GottFaust]

Let's start with melee always being bad since U7. Right now the only usable melee weapons for high level gameplay (e.g. Void III) are heavy weapons like Fragor and Orthos. Nobody dares using longswords, daggers and dual daggers (maybe except Fang Prime) at the moment and I well damn understand them. I am not saying that Galatine is OP nor it isn't, yeah, it feels pretty powerful and rewarding - that's how melee weapons should work: high risk - high reward.

Lets be honest: Melee weapons have been bad since I joined up during U6.

I'll update the data sheet.

 

EDIT: updated.  Let me know if you see any more discrepancies.

Looks much better now. We've still got slightly different results, but that might just be due to precision loss somewhere. Have you thought about doing separate groups for spam and charge melee? Some of the heavy weapons and light weapons are better at one or the other. It's not 100% universally charge for heavies and spam for lights.

Edited September 28, 2013 by GottFaust

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Lets be honest: Melee weapons have been bad since I joined up during U6.

Looks much better now. We've still got slightly different results, but that might just be due to precision loss somewhere. Have you thought about doing separate groups for spam and charge melee? Some of the heavy weapons and light weapons are better at one or the other. It's not 100% universally charge for heavies and spam for lights.

I considered it, but ultimately decided there was no sense in it.  A given weapon is going to be better at one or the other, so I just put them down for what they are best at/generally used for.

 

The only time melee was good was when you went FULL melee damage.  I still recall the video of someone getting something like a 111k crit on Arn Etina.  Of course to do that, you had to fill all your mod slots on your warframe with 75% melee damage mods and filled your weapon with rate and AP mods..  Melee damage and multishot stacking were two of the major contributors to the U7 overhaul.  It was just a matter of fact that unless you went all-in, your build was going to be subpar.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[GottFaust]

I considered it, but ultimately decided there was no sense in it.  A given weapon is going to be better at one or the other, so I just put them down for what they are best at/generally used for.

 

The only time melee was good was when you went FULL melee damage.  I still recall the video of someone getting something like a 111k crit on Arn Etina.  Of course to do that, you had to fill all your mod slots on your warframe with 75% melee damage mods and filled your weapon with rate and AP mods..  Melee damage and multishot stacking were two of the major contributors to the U7 overhaul.  It was just a matter of fact that unless you went all-in, your build was going to be subpar.

I remember the multishot/mag-cap/fire-rate stacking, but I don't remember the melee damage stacking. I'm not saying it wasn't a thing, I just don't remember running into it. Then again I wasn't extremely active in the game back then as I was on the dying end of my time playing Guild Wars 2 and was juggling them both.

Hell,I just realized that I didn't even create my forums account until shortly after U7.5 went live. I do have my Lato Vandal to prove it though.

Edited September 28, 2013 by GottFaust

[underverse]

FINNALLY A REAL MELEE WEAPON WHICH IS BALANCED COMPARED WITH PRIMARY AND SECUNDARY WEAPONS(the no soo melee weapons which are balanced with those weapon are glaive and krestel)

but to be honest the melee weapons core gameplay in general need to be revised to make it balanced with primary and secundary weapons i mean why  try to attack or charge with a melee weapons if you can melt enemies with soma, acrid, flux rifle, strun wrath and every armor pircing/ignore weapon/serrate damage weapon?

Edited September 28, 2013 by underverse

[Patzer]

Your formulas are a bit off for the charge DPS there. The correct one would be something like: (x*(1.0/(y+(1.0/z))) where x is the charge damage, y is the charge time, and z is the swing speed.

Also, the Galatine has a ~1.7 base charge time.

Some examples of the correct unmodded Charge DPS:

Orthos Prime = (200*(1.0/(0.5+(1.0/1.3))))=157.5758

Galatine = (400*(1.0/(1.7+(1.0/1.4))))=165.6804

 

I thought to simplify that formula because... math, so it would be more clear what it does but ironically it's opposite.

 

x/(y+1/z)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Maths updated to reflect the effect of Fury on charged weapons.

 

Also bumping to try to fight the spread of misinformation.. :(

Edited September 29, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LazyKnight]

Maths updated to reflect the effect of Fury on charged weapons.

 

Also bumping to try to fight the spread of misinformation.. :(

Good luck with that. I hope DE reworks melee to at least useable range.

 

 

DON'T NERF "X", MAKE "Y" AS GOOD AS "X": Message received and understood.