Galatine Op Y/n?

[Patzer]

Math says otherwise: It scales only because it does 150 damage base in a burst of 5 hits.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlWVt6vp3-YWdHZJRTBvRTBrNGNrb3dNbEZsc0tZVHc#gid=3

 

Those calculations might assume Hind can shoot 5 bursts per second (25 shots per second) which afaik is not true. Am I correct?

[General_Krull]

Math says otherwise: It scales only because it does 150 damage base in a burst of 5 hits.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlWVt6vp3-YWdHZJRTBvRTBrNGNrb3dNbEZsc0tZVHc#gid=3

That's 30 damage per bullet yes? When enemies start getting armor it's going to fall short compared to a lot of things. 

Is that chart raw damage? Does it count enemy resistances?

[Grilleds]

Please use spacing next time it is harder to read clumps.

 

I just used the T3 keys as the example because it is the number one things that people ask for groups in clan chat.

 

 

1. Supra should not be a rank 7 weapon; at most it's stats would make it rank 4.

2. There are only 3 good rifle :Hind, synapse, Flux rifle. The others are not at a level that would give them a higher than rank 4 requirement.

3. Soma can not match lanka, ogris or any good shotgun in single hit damage.

4. Soma can not beat a flux rifle under any situation on light infested.

5. Soma can not beat a synapse on corpus.

6. Many weapons are grossly underpowered for the difficulty in acquiring them(looking at you braton prime).

2.Hind is nowhere near the Flux Rifle or Synapse's level of usability even when fully modded and even when framerate issues aren't causing you to fire at a lower rate. Simple math shows that one burst of the hind does less damage than a Flux Rifle in the same amount of time, and its armor mitigated too, and since it fires in bursts, its sustained damage is obviously going to be worse than comparable weapons.

3. Soma isn't a single shot weapon, its a DPS weapon. In terms of DPS, it beats out every other primary.

4. Light infested are a joke even at level 75+, and the Soma still beats it vs every other enemy.

5. Corpus are all glass cannons, and the Soma still outdamages the Synapse vs Grineer and Infested.

6. Yes they are. Weapon balance as a whole isn't very good right now. Which is the point I'm trying to make.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Grilleds

[IIPREDATORII]

Hmm could have swore this post was about the GALATINE.

[LazyKnight]

Those calculations might assume Hind can shoot 5 bursts per second (25 shots per second) which afaik is not true. Am I correct?

It's volts chart. It has a fire rate of 5 for the bullets with a .06 interval between burst. He has all the math on page: raw stats. If it is wrong PM him, I am not saying "that is hind's dps" I am only making the claim it can hit hard.

 

 

2.Hind is nowhere near the Flux Rifle or Synapse's level of usability even when fully modded and even when framerate issues aren't causing you to fire at a lower rate. Simple math shows that one burst of the hind does less damage than a Flux Rifle in the same amount of time, and its armor mitigated too, and since it fires in bursts, its sustained damage is obviously going to be worse than comparable weapons.

The burst damage of hind is greater than any weapon with a wind up time. It is the worst weapon in the list for pure sustained DPS. Synapse and flux can instantly hit their fire rate, I believe soma has a 8 or 6 shots time to achieve full speed.

 

 

That's 30 damage per bullet yes? When enemies start getting armor it's going to fall short compared to a lot of things. 

Is that chart raw damage? Does it count enemy resistances?

It can still do enough damage to burst a grineer medium up to level 90 with a full burst to the head. It is certainly not a weapon for over level 100 on two faction but it still scales higher than braton prime.

Edited September 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Saenol]

OP doesn't take into account mods*, Galatine's quirks**, Galatine's vastly superior crit rate/damage, and his math is wrong***.

 

I have a triple Formaed Gram and a single Formaed Gelatine, both potatoed (obviously) and in my personal experience, Gelatine's practical DPS is roughly double what Gram can put out, if not more.

 

*Gelatine benefits more from critical mods than Gram does from additional elements, and fully modded, the practical charge attack speed gap narrows.

 

** Gelatine does seem to occasionally strike targets more than once and can strike up to five targets at a time, while Gram is limited to three.

 

***Ignoring crits, with the same mod setup, if Gram is doing 600 per charge attack, Gelatine is doing 1200, not 800.

 

Also, Gram has momentum and knockdown on jump attack.

 

So does Galatine.

 

In fact, Gelatine has everything Scindo and Gram have, except: less base damage, way the hell more charge damage, way more charge critical damage, five times the charge crit rate, a faster base attack, and a slower charge attack speed.

[LazyKnight]

I don't even have a stance on the balance of it yet.  It's so far out in left field compared to all the other melee weapons and they're all junk when compared to guns, so who knows what the target for melee balance should be.

Melee weapons: DE most commonly made and most often useless weapon.

 

For how many melee they gave us they should spend a little more time balancing them so they scale. It is painfully obvious when I look at their balance most are benchmarked for levels 10-40. The heavy weapons do not seem to be balanced for anything higher than level 60. I have to wonder if DE_Scott and DE_Steve ever talked about "What NPC level should melee be balanced to?". 

Edited September 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[KazVN]

why my galantine dont knowdown mob when jump atk?

 

is my galantine not what u want to say???

 

galantine is good, pure charge build+ ash = 2 hit sargas ruk without crit. Lol..

[Grilleds]

Youre right it has the slowest charge time but thats the only disadvantage this weapon has

That's a HUGE disadvantage considering you can be staggered during the charge.

[Aggh]

That's a HUGE disadvantage considering you can be staggered during the charge.

There's no real practical difference between the galatine's modded .6 sec charge speed and other heavy weapons .35 second charge time.  Most people won't consistently be able to release at .35 seconds every time so the time saved will rarely make up for the 200 less charge damage, 1/5th the critical chance, lower crit damage, and lower max targets.  As long as you time your charge right you'll rarely get staggered in the middle of a charge attack.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Saenol]

why my galantine dont knowdown mob when jump atk?

 

Every Galatine I've seen in action has a substantial AoE knockdown on gound slams, including my own.

 

Most people won't consistently be able to release at .35 seconds every time.

 

Once you get a weapon's charge speed down, timing it nearly perfectly is not terribly difficult.

 

However, there is still some margin, and the swing still needs to take place (which is actually ever so slightly faster on Galatine) so even the best timed charge attacks don't make up for half the charge damage and far lower criticals (both chance and damage), as you say.

 

That's a HUGE disadvantage considering you can be staggered during the charge.

 

Being staggered during the charge was a big turn off for me initially.

 

However, since you are also free to move during the charge, I've learned to only get within range when the swing is about to take place, after I've already initiated the charge.

 

Also, the fully modded charge time is not prohibitively long.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Saenol

[notionphil]

OP, melee is not about sustained DPS. It's about burst damage. You don't melee anything planning to go blow for blow with it. If you can't kill it before it hits you, you are dead, quickly. That's why Galatine is so powerful, it has 2x plus the burst dps of all other weapons + better crits than most.

A melee weap could literally have a 4 second charge and do 1k dmg and that would be much better than a 1 sec charge for 250 dmg. Why? Bc it would one hit everything; you charge before it reaches you. You don't use melee unless you can make a killing blow, and you plan it before hand.

[Saenol]

OP, melee is not about sustained DPS. It's about burst damage. You don't melee anything planning to go blow for blow with it. If you can't kill it before it hits you, you are dead, quickly. That's why Galatine is so powerful, it has 2x plus the burst dps of all other weapons + better crits than most.

A melee weap could literally have a 4 second charge and do 1k dmg and that would be much better than a 1 sec charge for 250 dmg. Why? Bc it would one hit everything; you charge before it reaches you. You don't use melee unless you can make a killing blow, and you plan it before hand.

 

Often the case, but there are numerous exceptions. Any sort of CC, invisibility, or a target simply going after someone/something else can allow you to land many consecutive blows relatively safely.

[Aggh]

Every Galatine I've seen in action has a substantial AoE knockdown on gound slams, including my own.

 

 

Once you get a weapon's charge speed down, timing it nearly perfectly is not terribly difficult.

 

However, there is still some margin, and the swing still needs to take place (which is actually ever so slightly faster on Galatine) so even the best timed charge attacks don't make up for half the charge damage and far lower criticals (both chance and damage), as you say.

 

 

Being staggered during the charge was a big turn off for me initially.

 

However, since you are also free to move during the charge, I've learned to only get within range when the swing is about to take place, after I've already initiated the charge.

 

Also, the fully modded charge time is not prohibitively long.

That's merely your perception.  You might think you're getting it down within 1/100ths of a second, but the reality is that you're merely getting close to charge speed most of the time.  Trying doing it with a macro software that records delay time between key rleases.  You'll almost always be a little off.  And when you're talking a difference of .25 seconds, being a little off easily whittles away any advantage the difference in charge speed presents.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Aggh

[renleech]

After reading the previous posts, i wonder: i have a reaper prime with dps build(maxed elemental mods, maxed fury, no charge mods my playstyle). Does galatine have any advantage compared to my case?

Edited September 30, 2013 by renleech

[Hameln]

Just wait until the damage update. I guess they gonna remake a lot of number. Too many redundant weapon right now.

[TheHeraldXII]

There's no real practical difference between the galatine's modded .6 sec charge speed and other heavy weapons .35 second charge time.  Most people won't consistently be able to release at .35 seconds every time so the time saved will rarely make up for the 200 less charge damage, 1/5th the critical chance, lower crit damage, and lower max targets.  As long as you time your charge right you'll rarely get staggered in the middle of a charge attack.

Wait, you need to time charged melee attacks now? They finish the attack whether you release it or not and if I'm not mistaken won't use a charge attack if you release it even the slightest bit too early.

[Tenyu]

Galatine may win in charge attack for all melee weapons, but in terms of charge speed and sustaining DPS, weapons like the gram or orthos prime may be better

[Saenol]

That's merely your perception.  You might think you're getting it down within 1/100ths of a second, but the reality is that you're merely getting close to charge speed most of the time.  Trying doing it with a macro software that records delay time between key rleases.  You'll almost always be a little off.  And when you're talking a difference of .25 seconds, being a little off easily whittles away any advantage the difference in charge speed presents.

 

1/4th of a second is huge and far beyond the margin of error for repetitive tasks with predictable cues in most people.

 

I'm not talking about 1/100th of a second, but 1/10th of a second, or better, is common place. And no, this is not merely my perception, it's what I and many others have measured.

 

If 1/4th of a second was common, no one could control bursts of automatic weapons or shoot moving targets in Warframe. Hell, I doubt any games like this would be playable with a persistent 250ms margin of error to every action.

 

Edit: I made a video earlier demonstrating charge attack speed, I still have the original, recorded at 60 fps, which should let me measure my consistency with only a 16.67ms margin of error. I will count some frames and post back here.

 

After reading the previous posts, i wonder: i have a reaper prime with dps build(maxed elemental mods, maxed fury, no charge mods my playstyle). Does galatine have any advantage compared to my case?

 

If you refuse to use charge attacks, Galatine is garbage.

 

If you are willing to adapt to deal damage, Galatine will out do your Reaper by a mile and then some.

 

Wait, you need to time charged melee attacks now? They finish the attack whether you release it or not and if I'm not mistaken won't use a charge attack if you release it even the slightest bit too early.

 

it's not about releasing it early, it's about releasing it later than you need to, which increases the time between your attacks.

 

Ideally you want to hold the charge as long as necessary, but not a single millisecond longer. Then you want to start charging again immediately.

 

 

Galatine may win in charge attack for all melee weapons, but in terms of charge speed and sustaining DPS, weapons like the gram or orthos prime may be better

 

They aren't. You can test this yourself in game.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Saenol

[yeomanry]

After reading this Post, my Hate was like...

"FU YOU ALL!"

[Thaumatos]

Guys, this is what Scott has said already in the latest livestream; a greater mastery rank will mean a greater weapon.

 

Lets put aside the simple fact that melee weapons are still FAAAAAAAAAAAR from useful compared to all the other tactical-nuclear, borderline-high-fantasy, nearly Harry Potter crap you can get in this game; it's got a mastery rank of 3.  That's higher than Gram's 2.  According to DE's philosophy, it should be better.

 

Its better than the Gram for MOST things, one of them being damage, chill.

[Aggh]

1/4th of a second is huge and far beyond the margin of error for repetitive tasks with predictable cues in most people.

 

I'm not talking about 1/100th of a second, but 1/10th of a second, or better, is common place. And no, this is not merely my perception, it's what I and many others have measured.

 

If 1/4th of a second was common, no one could control bursts of automatic weapons or shoot moving targets in Warframe. Hell, I doubt any games like this would be playable with a persistent 250ms margin of error to every action.

 

Edit: I made a video earlier demonstrating charge attack speed, I still have the original, recorded at 60 fps, which should let me measure my consistency. I will count some frames and post back here.

 

 

If you refuse to use charge attacks, Galatine is garbage.

 

If you are willing to adapt to deal damage, Galatine will out do your Reaper by a mile and then some.

 

 

it's not about releasing it early, it's about releasing it later than you need to, which increases the time between your attacks.

 

Ideally you want to hold the charge as long as necessary, but not a single millisecond longer.

 

 

 

They aren't. You can test this yourself in game.

Bursting isn't something that needs to be done with 100% consistency to make a noticeable difference.  Most stagger attacks have animations that are well over 1/4 of a second before they'll hit you.  Even being off by .05 seconds on each swing is more than enough to make the practical difference meaningless, especially since the dps can't even hope to compare since the charge time difference doesn't allow for any of the heavy melee weapons to make up for the difference in charge damage and crit chance.

 

 

Wait, you need to time charged melee attacks now? They finish the attack whether you release it or not and if I'm not mistaken won't use a charge attack if you release it even the slightest bit too early.

If you keep your button held down it will do the full charge time.  Charge speed mods allow you to release earlier.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Aggh

[Saenol]

Aggh, I did some frame counting, and I am getting my charge attacks down to a one frame margin of error at 60 fps.

 

This is less than a 17ms margin of error.

 

I will send you the original file if you like and you can count it yourself. I'm not off by even 0.5 seconds.

 

Chances are this is worse in an actual fight with a variable frame rate and lots of action go on, but the differences in charge time between Gram and Galatine are still meaningful. It's not enough to make Gram the better weapon, not by a long shot, but it's not as easily dismissed as you imply.

 

Edit: I think I know why these charges are so consistent. I am both releasing and holding charge again entirely during the the swing animation. I may well be off on my mouse 5 press by more than 17ms, but the animation is a 446ms long window which I have to maximize charge rate.

 

Regardless, it should be assumed that most people with any practice can get a perfect rate of charge attacks.

 

Looks like TheHeraldXII is correct.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Saenol

[ASH_PRIME]

Thanks for trying OP but as You see there are 20+ posts by clueless whingers crying over this weapon who have of course NEVER used it

Anyone who has actually built and used one would know, YES it is an excellent weapon, but it is NOT overpowered 

it is certainly not worth throwing a fit over

strangely enough the WIKI isnt the beginning and end of the WF universe...  post all the math/graphs you want..   
i prefer to take mine to void survival and actually TEST it in GAME

Mine is currently catalysed and Formaed twice, is it good? YES  
is it MUCH better than a high build Gram/Hate/Orthos Prime/Fang Prime?  NO

Is it game breaking OP?  not in the slightest

Should its mastery level be a little higher?  PROBABLY

All it has done is give the Melee players who use CHARGE ATTACK builds another nice weapon


THANKS DE!  Man you guys must have THICK skins by now after dealing with the psychotics on these forums
 

[Saenol]

If you keep your button held down it will do the full charge time.  Charge speed mods allow you to release earlier.

 

You don't need to time the release well, you have almost a half second (assuming max Fury) to release and press again before the next charge animation can even start.

 

Anyone who has actually built and used one would know, YES it is an excellent weapon, but it is NOT overpowered

 

I've built and used it, still on my first Forma, but I will add another soon, and it certainly is overpowered, relative to other melee weapons.

 

is it MUCH better than a high build Gram/Hate/Orthos Prime/Fang Prime?  NO

 

I have a Gram with three Forma on it, and the best build I can manage can't kill things half as fast as my Galatine with one.

 

Care to share what your builds are for these weapons? I can only imagine Galatine not being blatantly superior to these other weapons if you are leaving off some of the charge or crit mods.