Rubedo Rubedo Rubedo

[Gaiters]

Multi quote time.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the problem: The current supplies of rubedo and alloy plates are fine, they are categorized as "uncommon" resources and that should mean rubedo and alloy plates should drop in relatively small quantities at any given point in time.

The problem is imagined not realistic. There is no aspect of the game you cannot play while getting the rare resouces you need. This means that no matter what material you are getting, the time it is currently taking you is the desired outcome. Rubedo and Alloy plate are the rare resouces because a resource that goes into any part has to be rare. If you like they can make all of the resouces have the same chance to drop and the rare resouce you are looking for will not be influenced by which area you choose to play in.

We are saying that demand for rubedo and alloy plate need to be balanced to address two things:

1. Addressing the disproportionate value placed on rubedo and alloy plates that makes most of the other resources entirely worthless. I personally cringe and sigh any time I see "+1 morphics", this should not be happening. In a game that has proper resource distribution we would be celebrating whenever we get rare drops, but right now this only applies to orokin cells.

2. Addressing the need to constantly farm rubedo and alloy plates to make almost anything notable. We are not saying that we want item crafting to be easymode, we are saying we want balanced and varied demand for the things we make.

I'm glad you realise that the other materials are 'worthless', what is being asked for in this thread is for all materials to be equally worthless.

Right now the game is a shadow of what it is to be, and you cannot judge the distribution of materials yet.

Like it or not the only materials that are valuable are the rare ones, Reality gives us this lesson with Silver and Gold.

While you may still not agree that this is a problem, the fact still remains that the current system places disproportionate demand on rubedo and alloy plate. As closed beta testers, we should be actively pointing out balance issues that can and will drive players away and act detrimentally to a game's overall health, especially balance issues in something as essential and fundamental as resources.

You know what, you don't have a rubedo sink, there is nothing stealing your gained resouces. So there is a cap the amount of rubedo you need. And this is not game breaking.

Also, I implore you to stop contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that farming a given resource entails "repeat[ing] the same level over and over", and then imply variety in farming by moving on to say we "can currently fight any faction on all available level types over multiple difficulties" for farming. In your previous post, you also mentioned "playing the game and seeing what materials come [my] way"before moving on to say I "could be playing levels that include the materials need to make [my] next warframe" while waiting for my warframe to finish. You argue one thing one moment and then say the exact opposite the next moment, which or what are you saying?

I'm saying play the game; and stop being a whiner. There are provisions for people who farm(farmers in games will always exist) and people who are casual. There is not just one quest with Alloy plate or Rubedo, and this complaining is unnecessary.

Also I did not say you have to repeat the same level over and over, that's creative licence on your part. Next time you quote somone, try quoting them directly.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ZEDD

[Aggh]

I know tons of people who have like every hero haven't paid a cent, it might be bad for new players seeing as there's so many heroes they need to be caught up on but they do allow you to use one of every type of hero free each week to test it. Of course that system couldn't work in Warframe, but still, the Warframe design would be like forcing players to pay money if they want the better half of their masteries and rune pages.

Also maybe you just don't enjoy MoBas, but when I play LoL I do it for the fun of it, not because I feel the need to grind IP.

Pretty sure noone enjoys grinding Rubedo or waiting 3 days to finish crafting a Warframe.

It takes weeks to get a new hero. During that time I could easily grind 2-3 frames and all the purchaseable weapons.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Aggh

[Nokturnel]

I'd like to note that if there were no grinding to be done on this game I would already be finished with it.

yea this is another reason for this.

It's a way for developers to stretch out what little content they have in an attempt to keep people interested.

Make things your players want take an extremely long time to get.

Though this method of grinding scares away potential customers.

There's a reason people can't stand grindy Korean MMOs.

but to use this method during a beta test? Aren't we supposed to be testing as much content as possible?

Edited February 20, 2013 by Nokturnel

[KyleOne]

It's true that rubedo is the most coveted of all things.

Related: I like smashing enemies. I even sometimes like smashing barrels. I do NOT like when stuff flies out of bosses or out of crates and ends up who knows where and I miss out on precious rubedo. That's not fun to miss out on rewards because they flew so far away that you missed them.

I am open to any ideas for changing the rubedo farm-forever. Even just give it at the end of a mission like xp so I get what i earned instead of missing it.

[Indaliceo]

Multi quote time.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the problem: The current supplies of rubedo and alloy plates are fine, they are categorized as "uncommon" resources and that should mean rubedo and alloy plates should drop in relatively small quantities at any given point in time.

The problem is imagined not realistic. There is no aspect of the game you cannot play while getting the rare resouces you need. This means that no matter what material you are getting, the time it is currently taking you is the desired outcome. Rubedo and Alloy plate are the rare resouces because a resource that goes into any part has to be rare. If you like they can make all of the resouces have the same chance to drop and the rare resouce you are looking for will not be influenced by which area you choose to play in.

We are saying that demand for rubedo and alloy plate need to be balanced to address two things:

1. Addressing the disproportionate value placed on rubedo and alloy plates that makes most of the other resources entirely worthless. I personally cringe and sigh any time I see "+1 morphics", this should not be happening. In a game that has proper resource distribution we would be celebrating whenever we get rare drops, but right now this only applies to orokin cells.

2. Addressing the need to constantly farm rubedo and alloy plates to make almost anything notable. We are not saying that we want item crafting to be easymode, we are saying we want balanced and varied demand for the things we make.

I'm glad you realise that the other materials are 'worthless', what is being asked for in this thread is for all materials to be equally worthless.

Right now the game is a shadow of what it is to be, and you cannot judge the distribution of materials yet.

Like it or not the only materials that are valuable are the rare ones, Reality gives us this lesson with Silver and Gold.

While you may still not agree that this is a problem, the fact still remains that the current system places disproportionate demand on rubedo and alloy plate. As closed beta testers, we should be actively pointing out balance issues that can and will drive players away and act detrimentally to a game's overall health, especially balance issues in something as essential and fundamental as resources.

You know what, you don't have a rubedo sink, there is nothing stealing your gained resouces. So there is a cap the amount of rubedo you need. And this is not game breaking.

Also, I implore you to stop contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that farming a given resource entails "repeat[ing] the same level over and over", and then imply variety in farming by moving on to say we "can currently fight any faction on all available level types over multiple difficulties" for farming. In your previous post, you also mentioned "playing the game and seeing what materials come [my] way"before moving on to say I "could be playing levels that include the materials need to make [my] next warframe" while waiting for my warframe to finish. You argue one thing one moment and then say the exact opposite the next moment, which or what are you saying?

I'm saying play the game; and stop being a whiner. There are provisions for people who farm(farmers in games will always exist) and people who are casual. There is not just one quest with Alloy plate or Rubedo, and this complaining is unnecessary.

Also I did not say you have to repeat the same level over and over, that's creative licence on your part. Next time you quote somone, try quoting them directly.

I think you're still just completely missing the point Dalewyn is trying to make.

The majority of people are FINE with rubedo and alloy plate being rare. Hell I don't mind having to farm it. However the problem arrises when somewhere along the lines of 80% of the recipies in this game REQUIRE those materials. I'd LOVE to be able to as you put it "Just play the game." but with almost everything requiring these two materials it means the time I have to play has to be spent farming the same 4 planets in order for me to craft anything new to play with. This brings us into an issue where if the recipies don't become more varied with their mats requirements it'll drive players away since in order to progress/get new things you're pretty much forced into grinding a combination of the 4 planets that drop these two materials or pay real money for platinum, frankly that's just not fun. I'd love to be able to just play the missions I enjoy doing, and I guess TECHNICALLY I could provided I don't want to use any of the new weapons or try new warframes, but again that would kill enjoyment of the game because then I'd be stuck using the same stuff for eternity.

I'd LOVE for Warframe to not just become another F2P game that's faded into obscurity, but I'm afraid if they don't do something about the crafting system it's going to do just that.

[Nokturnel]

I'd LOVE for Warframe to not just become another F2P game that's faded into obscurity, but I'm afraid if they don't do something about the crafting system it's going to do just that.

Exactly, this boring grind for mats in order to try to force customers into supporting the company will just turn this game into ..

"Just another one of those Grindy Korean MMOs"

[Frazeil]

Completely agree with this thread. I'm sitting on god knows how many blueprints that all need Rubedo/Alloy plates & I'm coming to my limit. Yes, I understand I don't HAVE to play the same planets but how else am I going to aquire new equipment?

I'm sitting on truck loads of materials that aren't required for barely anything, it's just plain silly. Reduce the required amount of Rubedo/Alloy plates in blueprints and add some of the more common materials to the recipe. Least then I can add some variety to my boring grind!

[V101]

wich is the shortest-fastest-easiest map to farm either rubedo or alloy plates ? specific location (as in plate and the name of the area) thanks :)

[akiman89]

+1 This whole rubedo and alloy plates drought is buggin me, It's a real fun vacuum. Hoping it's a priority.

[cypherhalo]

Exactly, this boring grind for mats in order to try to force customers into supporting the company will just turn this game into ..

"Just another one of those Grindy Korean MMOs"

Look, I'm really sympathetic to you here buddy. I love playing League of Legends and I'm really against too much grinding in a game. FWIW, I do think this game has some elements of too much grind, especially in making you farm blueprints for the warframes, which I think is nonsense and you should be able to buy them. Also, like myself and others have said, the "recipes" really need some more variety. I'm fine with Rubedo and Alloy Plates being uncommon, but since everything and their grandmother needs it, it is just too much. People saying "wait until they make more items", well, okay, sure but why can't I give my opinion now on what they have? Especially as, unless they release like 20 new items which all use different mats then what they are doing right now, this problem won't go away.

The whole "grinding" nature of the game is a bit off-topic though. Here's my thoughts on it. Basically, except for the BP farming issue and the Rubedo/Alloy Plate issue, I think the game is fine. Like I said, I love League of Legends, but that game has its own grind. Grinding to get a 6300 IP champ is a lengthy process and there are A LOT of 6300 IP champs. Of course, I imagine many people are like me and just pick a few champs they like, but even then I ended up spending money rather then grinding for them all because the grind is SO LONG. If you want good runes, which are a necessity for competitive play, you once again are faced with a lot of grinding or paying money. Personally, I don't play competitively so I barely have any runes and have tons of empty rune spots b/c I just pay them no mind. So, point is, there is a lot of grinding in LoL, depending on how you play it.

Farming mats in general is just not an issue as far as I am concerned as enemies and loockers and such drop plentiful loot. The problem is these mats in particular are in too high of a demand. Fix that and I don't think there would be any issue. Some grinding is expected in any F2P game and honestly going through the process of collecting what I need and then building my weapon is kind of neat. It makes me feel a little more ownership over the item since I went through the trouble of "building" it myself. Plus, in a system where the BP recipes are more varied, I would have reason to go play every planet, which is what I want, rather then being stuck playing the same 4 planets if I want to craft anything new.

So overall, I think has a pretty good F2P model. The only places I dislike its model are BP farming, Rubedo/Alloy plate demand, and slots (those need to go). Here, I will mention LoL, you don't need a "barracks" to house your LoL champs, so why do I need slots? Oh, and the Orokin Catalyst/Reactor system needs work. The fact that you can only get them from the busted alert system is ridiculous. There needs to be a better way to get those. I have been playing for weeks and have only ever seen one ? alert and got a Steel Charge from that. Nice to have, but the alert system is just simply broken, unless I sat down and played the whole day which, I can't do, gotta work. Speaking of that . . . . ciao!

[Nokturnel]

^

You think they don't know that they made Rubedo and Alloy Plates horribly boring to farm and yet basically every recipe requires them?

and getting a Catalyst/Reactor is annoying as hell?

The "pretty good F2P model" you're referring to relies on both these things being annoying in order to force customers to support them.

It was planned like this it didn't just happen on accident.

If they weren't trying to psychologically force you to buy reactors/catalysts you wouldn't even need them. You'd just level your frames and weapons to 30 without needing to get one.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Nokturnel

[cypherhalo]

No need to get mad bro. Every F2P games tries to persuade you to spend money. Warframe is one of the most fun F2P games I've tried and their model is superior to others I've tried. It's still beta and there is plenty of time for things to change, a lot has changed already since the time I just started a few weeks ago. That's why we calmly and politely give our feedback and ask for them to change things we don't like :-)

[Gaiters]

I think you're still just completely missing the point Dalewyn is trying to make.

The majority of people are FINE with rubedo and alloy plate being rare. Hell I don't mind having to farm it. However the problem arrises when somewhere along the lines of 80% of the recipies in this game REQUIRE those materials. I'd LOVE to be able to as you put it "Just play the game." but with almost everything requiring these two materials it means the time I have to play has to be spent farming the same 4 planets in order for me to craft anything new to play with. This brings us into an issue where if the recipies don't become more varied with their mats requirements it'll drive players away since in order to progress/get new things you're pretty much forced into grinding a combination of the 4 planets that drop these two materials or pay real money for platinum, frankly that's just not fun. I'd love to be able to just play the missions I enjoy doing, and I guess TECHNICALLY I could provided I don't want to use any of the new weapons or try new warframes, but again that would kill enjoyment of the game because then I'd be stuck using the same stuff for eternity.

I'd LOVE for Warframe to not just become another F2P game that's faded into obscurity, but I'm afraid if they don't do something about the crafting system it's going to do just that.

When you say "just four planets" that sounds really bad. But if you factor in that those four planets are playable at almost every level, have about 71 missions, and cover all game types and factions; your point kinda loses it's validity.

I'm not missunderstanding. I'm completely disagreeing. The only item's that you have to farm are blueprints.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ZEDD

[Nokturnel]

No need to get mad bro. Every F2P games tries to persuade you to spend money. Warframe is one of the most fun F2P games I've tried and their model is superior to others I've tried. It's still beta and there is plenty of time for things to change, a lot has changed already since the time I just started a few weeks ago. That's why we calmly and politely give our feedback and ask for them to change things we don't like :-)

I'm more disappointed than mad.

Bad F2P models will just make this game written off as another crappy "pay to win" game.

You gotta get the model right, you can't make F2P gamers suffer while allowing for people who pay to get luxuries.

[Dalewyn]

When you say "just four planets" that sounds really bad. But if you factor in that those four planets are playable at almost every level, have about 71 missions, and cover all game types and factions; your point kinda loses it's validity.

As far as I know there aren't any infested defense missions on Earth, Pluto, Venus, or Ceres so that already invalidates your "the 4 planets have everything" argument you insist on pushing through. Besides that, what does mission variety in those planets have anything to do with this? Most of us are saying we want to farm/play other planets than Earth/Pluto/Venus/Ceres, we're sick and tired of going to Earth/Pluto/Venus/Ceres in order to even have a shot at making most of the items we get blueprints of when we are amassing a horde of seemingly worthless resources from playing on other planets.

We want to see the disproportionately high value of rubedo and alloy plates curbed and the value of all other resources increased so that resources like nano spores and salvage we have amassed, among other crap like ferrite and morphics, are actually worth something. The resource distribution and crafting system as they stand right now are dull, boring, tedious, far too grindy, and badly balanced and a game that is dull, boring, tedious, far too grindy, and badly balanced will quickly be overshadowed by other games with superior design and WF will just become a forgotten memory.

I'm not missunderstanding. I'm completely disagreeing. The only item's that you have to farm are blueprints.

And to make most of the items on those blueprints you need rubedo and/or alloy plates, your point?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Dalewyn

[Gaiters]

There are infested missions and defence missions on those planets. Pluto has a bad(imo) infested + defence mission.

Why does planet variety have anything to do with anything? If mission variety doesn't matter, why does planet variety matter?

The game is only grindy because it is beta.

My point is, you don't "have to farm" rubedo and/or alloy plate. You do because gamers find the best option for getting what they want and repeat it over and over. Funny that you should mention infested defence missions in particular...

We want to see the disproportionately high value of rubedo and alloy plates curbed and the value of all other resources increased

impossible. There will always be a most valuable resouce that people will complain about. Either it won't drop enough, will only be found in one place, or will be in high demand. Resources cannot be created equal.

The other thing is a warframe needs only to be built once, if you guys didn't have to wait for your rubedo stockpile to fill you would be on here complaining that Warframe needs more content/ you have run out of things to do. (BETA)

Edited February 22, 2013 by ZEDD

[Valas34]

My point is, you don't "have to farm" rubedo and/or alloy plate. You do because gamers find the best option for getting what they want and repeat it over and over. Funny that you should mention infested defence missions in particular...

impossible. There will always be a most valuable resouce that people will complain about. Either it won't drop enough, will only be found in one place, or will be in high demand. Resources cannot be created equal.

The other thing is a warframe needs only to be built once, if you guys didn't have to wait for your rubedo stockpile to fill you would be on here complaining that Warframe needs more content/ you have run out of things to do. (BETA)

You DO have to farm for rubedo and alloy plates. A large majority of recipies require those items and in large quantities. To get the 800 or so required rubedo people will find the best way to do it. That is true. The point is, poeple don't WANT to have to farm for those items when there are plenty of under-used mats already in the game.

And every warframe requires large quantities of one or two mats. It has been said multiple times, no one is concerned about how rare the drops are, it is that too many recipies take those mats.

[Cakes]

Rubedo is used in every warframe blueprint (800 each) and quite a few of the more popular weapon blueprints.

Alloy plates are used in every warframe blueprint (150 each), every alternate helm blueprint (350 each), and a few popular weapon blueprints as well.

Nanospores are used in.... well if they are at all it is not noticeably making a dent in my stockpile.

From that all I see is a need for new non-warframe/helm blueprints to use nanospores, plastids, polymers... etc. My guess is alternate chassis and new weapons.

Resource management is always lurking somewhere in games, and credits don't accomplish that job after selling a few mods. Rubedo and alloy plates are simply the currency with which you "buy" the majority of your gear for the moment.

Under-used resources aren't farmed for specifically that reason. With the current set of blueprints, there is no reason to farm them. That may change in the future, but the need to farm resources to build your blueprints will not.

[ZAPTONE]

You should be able to turn not-so-often used materials into the things you need for some ratio of exchange. Some kind of Tenno exchange depot.

Edited February 22, 2013 by ZAPTONE

[GoldFusion]

To better illustrate the resource consumption distribution right now, here's a list of how many things a given resource is an ingredient of:

Common (drops in packs of ~150)

Circuits: 2

Ferrite: 8

Nano Spores: 0 (Zero, zilch, nada, nil.)

Polymer Bundle: 19

Salvage: 7

Uncommon (drops in packs of 10~40)

Alloy Plate: 15

Plastids: 2

Rubedo: ~20 (approximately)

Rare (drops in packs of 1)

Control Module: 1 + # of warframe systems

Gallium: 5

Morphics: 2 + # of warframe chassis

Neural Sensor: 3 + # of warframe helmets

Neurodes: 6

Orokin Cell: 5 + # of warframes

Numbers might be off slightly as this information is pulled from Wikia and some of the info there might not be up to date; it should not however affect the point of the above listing.

Obviously from the above, when making items the crafting system demands a disproportionate share of rubedo (300~500 per consumption) and alloy plates (80~500 per consumption), both "uncommon" resources, with the only comparable demand being polymer bundles (50~150 per consumption) which are a "common" resource making polymer bundles a non-issue compared to rubedo/alloy plates.

Meanwhile, some resources like nano spores, control modules, plastids, and circuits are almost non-existant in demand due to a lack of need even though many of them drop like flies (dem nano spores).

The resource distribution, and honestly the resource and crafting systems outright, need a back-to-the-drawing-board overhaul because the current system places disproportionate value on rubedo and alloy plates because we never appear to have enough, while making most other resources completely worthless because any demand for them is either already or immediately satisfied with little effort if there is any demand at all.

Right now we sigh when we get drops of rare resources like morphics, while we celebrate with the fury of a thousand suns whenever rubedo/alloy plates drop. This is wrong and not healthy for the game.

morphics aren't really rare i would put them in uncommon

[cypherhalo]

morphics aren't really rare i would put them in uncommon

I believe they're classed as rare b/c they drop in such small amounts. I mean, I usually one get one morphic a drop. So, I think it is technically a rare material but since so few recipes use it . . . we instead have issues with the (technically) "uncommon" materials like Rubedo and Alloy Plates.

[Dalewyn]

I've had close to ~7 morphics drop while I was farming for the last 200 rubedo I needed to make my Mag yesterday. Now, I should be jubilant about the fact I got 7 morphics to drop in the first place, they're rare for crying out loud!

Reality is hardly anything uses morphics though, and what does use morphics does not create nearly enough demand to make morphics worth anything. Consequently, I was mentally sighing whenever I saw "+1 morphics" pop up and was afraid everytime I was picking up resources that it'd be +1 morphics instead of the +20 rubedo I coveted. I now have ~40 morphics just sitting there while I still need more rubedo/alloy plates to create other WFs and weapons.

TL;DR: Besides the problem of rubedo and alloy plates being too valuable, it's also a severe problem that so-called rare resources like morphics don't have the value to be called "rare" resources.

[BraveDude8]

This is like Rubedo and alloy plates are allrounder metals or something... ~.~

Either reduce the amount required or make them easily available !(or they can just rework the crafting)

i got blueprints of 2 swords( dual axe and scindo-made it)

blueprints of Rhino(3/3) parts and trinity(2/3)

and boltor,

now all i need is Rubedo, been farming it for 2 days ~.~

maan i just checked and foundout that i hav 3x rhino helmet blueprints, wish i could trade / sell them(to other players)

How do you know if you have duplicate blueprints, and can you sell say.. 2 out of your 3 blueprints, instead of all of them?

[Zinn]

I believe they're classed as rare b/c they drop in such small amounts. I mean, I usually one get one morphic a drop. So, I think it is technically a rare material but since so few recipes use it . . . we instead have issues with the (technically) "uncommon" materials like Rubedo and Alloy Plates.

Morphics are almost a common resource, given how few of them you need: Certain areas and missions drop them constantly from regular enemies, not to mention lockers and barrels. I think I've had missions where I've gotten around 10 morphics and given that you're only spending very few of them at any given time, the proportions don't seem right in terms of calling them rare.

As for the topic in general, I'd say the whole things needs to be reworked in some way. It's clear that there is a too extreme focus on rubes and alloy and pretty much every other resource is relegated to be comparably common. Now, I'm not saying it's raining neural sensors or anything but I am saying that it's an item you need 1 of when crafting the few things that use them, so doing a boss run 3 times to aquire it isn't particularly annoying. However, grinding Vey Hek, Ceres and Pluto to obtain obscene amounts of resources is a bit too much. Let's take Rubedo as an example, where most drops are in the 13-25 size IIRC: You'd have to pick up somewhere between 32-62 piles and many missions won't give you more than 2-4. In the worst case, you have to repeat a mission upwards of 30 times to obtain the necessary items and while this might be a bit unrealistic to occur, 20 runs is plenty boring as it is. You can currently cheat the system a little bit by making sure you're playing on the new Grineer maps because they're loaded with chests that have a high chance of popping some rubes or alloy, though (make sure to equip loot radar!), but it doesn't change the underlying problem, which is that both alloy and rubedo runs up in the thousands if you want to craft a couple of weapons and frames.

The overall drop rate isn't a problem, as many have pointed out, it's simply that so many items focus exclusively on them and in huge quantities, so you're stuck doing the same couple of missions in the same environment forever and ever. It ties a bit into the lack of endgame stuff as well, since it can easily boil down to farming Xini and farming rubes/alloy if you don't have anything you want to level and explore, providing very little variation in gameplay and environments.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Zinn