I Find Myself Becoming More And More Bitter As The Days Progress

[arche]

They reduced the drop rate of the delta because they exponentially increased the spawn of the mob in question.  Which is how tehy addressed it.  The made all beacons more common by doing so but retained a level or required hunting.

So what if they increase spawn rate. If they wish to retain the level of grinding, shouldn't they reduced the drop rate of gamma and kappa too? since they exponentially increased the drop rate too. 

[Agent_of_Change]

So what if they increase spawn rate. If they wish to retain the level of grinding, shouldn't they reduced the drop rate of gamma and kappa too? since they exponentially increased the drop rate too. 

 

Basic math here. If you have a very limited source of something then the percentage chance of getting said thing from said source doesn't have to be incredibly low because the limited sources stacks with the lower chance.  Since in this case you have functionally 1 rare, 2 uncommon, and 1 common beacon types even at 15% (an example) Delta beacons would have been fairly rare (as the gate way piece they should be) because it's only 15% once a mission.

 

DE recognized that restricting the source was not really all that fun, so they boosted the spawn rate of the source by hundreds of percent.  But now that 15% of a delta per mission is significantly higher because it's now 15% PER mob not mission.  By lowering the drop rate of Deltas they bring the drop rate of the gateway piece back into line of the intended rarity.  Keep in mind that percentages are 0 sum and if you take from one it's going to others so look at the following examples:

 

- If you dropped all three types you create a "super" common and three relatively rare pieces - worse than the current situation

- If you Dropped 2  types you have 1 common, 1 uncommon, 2 rare - worse than current

- You can't drop all of them without the ratios staying the same so that's out

- and you can't leave them the same without it being ludicrously easy, so that's out

 

What they did was create a single rare piece that still isn't impossible or even all that hard to get (if you are trying) resulting in a ratio of beacons that fairly assures that you will be able to build a key when you have enough deltas to do so.  It was the right call and it's better than it was when the drop rate was higher but the spawn rate was lower.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Agent_of_Change

[Rakosta_Kai]

My comment should tell you that I'm not a fan of whining about non-issues. 

+1

 

There are things worthy of note to discuss in this game but there really isn't any cause in bashing them for the stuff they aren't doing wrong.

 

Server Infrastructure and all the drops... Needs discussed.

 

Adding a stance to the drop tables that new players will easily get at but have no weapon to apply it to... Needs discussed.

 

Dark Sector Conflicts, tributes, benefits, and timers... Needs discussed.

 

Definitely things that need to be discuss/addressed... I don't see RNG being anything other than RNG at present though.

[SirAuron]

I type two words and a fight break outs. And I see Change has been to my profile.

 

However it's likely someone can go survivals without seeing a Delta with or w/o nekros so you can see where they are coming from.

 

People don't really have as much patience as others even if they are patient enough. Patience differ from person to person and it has nothing to do with Instant Gratification(Impatience), but with results so they feel like no progress has been made and that makes your efforts wasted. It also feels like you're going in circles and makes you wonder if the drops are broken. So many things go through ones mind which affects their patience. This is why the token system used by many games was brought up.

 

So what can you do. Ask for drop leniency or advice. Although it is a shame needing a certain warframe to make good progress.

 

And people feel the same way with stance drop rate and dropping from certain beasts.

Edited April 15, 2014 by SirAuron

[FigsAndMice]

+1

 

There are things worthy of note to discuss in this game but there really isn't any cause in bashing them for the stuff they aren't doing wrong.

 

Server Infrastructure and all the drops... Needs discussed.

 

Adding a stance to the drop tables that new players will easily get at but have no weapon to apply it to... Needs discussed.

 

Dark Sector Conflicts, tributes, benefits, and timers... Needs discussed.

 

Definitely things that need to be discuss/addressed... I don't see RNG being anything other than RNG at present though.

Even if RNG has to exist, they can be a little smarter about placement. For example, if it is a rare drop, don't make it drop from an already rare enemy. There are small things like this which are either on purpose (if so, shame on DE) or are overlooked, in which case it is a good idea to review them. 

[Agent_of_Change]

Even if RNG has to exist, they can be a little smarter about placement. For example, if it is a rare drop, don't make it drop from an already rare enemy. There are small things like this which are either on purpose (if so, shame on DE) or are overlooked, in which case it is a good idea to review them. 

 

This is a good example where RNG can be addressed because there is an actual problem:

 

Common mods (not to mention uncommon and rare mods) on rare enemies are rarer than most rare mods - that's a problem

WF Powermods choking the drop tables for no good reason functionally lowering the drop rate of everything else - that's a problem.

Drop table Dillution is a problem

[VellaX]

I type two words and a fight break outs. And I see Change has been to my profile.

 

However it's likely someone can go survivals without seeing a Delta with or w/o nekros so you can see where they are coming from.

 

People don't really have as much patience as others even if they are patient enough. Patience differ from person to person and it has nothing to do with Instant Gratification(Impatience), but with results so they feel like no progress has been made and that makes your efforts wasted. It also feels like you're going in circles and makes you wonder if the drops are broken. So many things go through ones mind which affects their patience. This is why the token system used by many games was brought up.

 

So what can you do. Ask for drop leniency or advice. Although it is a shame needing a certain warframe to make good progress.

 

And people feel the same way with stance drop rate and dropping from certain beasts.

 

there's also the fact you have to take into account how many people have jobs and things to do in real life and they only have time to play this casually so when they except or hope to accomplish something from doing a few runs what should we just say "shut up you just want it to be easy so you can get it done fast" because that statement is the common phrase people use against people that are tired of it 

[Agent_of_Change]

there's also the fact you have to take into account how many people have jobs and things to do in real life and they only have time to play this casually so when they except or hope to accomplish something from doing a few runs what should we just say "shut up you just want it to be easy so you can get it done fast" because that statement is the common phrase people use against people that are tired of it 

 

As someone who plays regularly but casually I truly think people start complaining way to easily.  Personally I play on average a couple hours a day on top of a personal life and a full time job and I have been playing since open beta and have pretty much everything at his point.  It's been my experience that you can and will get everything and that far to many people are too worried about getting it sooner and getting frustrated unnecessarily. 

[LukeAura]

People don't really have as much patience as others even if they are patient enough. Patience differ from person to person and it has nothing to do with Instant Gratification(Impatience), but with results so they feel like no progress has been made and that makes your efforts wasted. It also feels like you're going in circles and makes you wonder if the drops are broken. So many things go through ones mind which affects their patience. This is why the token system used by many games was brought up.

 

And people feel the same way with stance drop rate and dropping from certain beasts.

This is very accurate. I highly agree. 

The randomness is what kills peoples patience, it's not the desire of instant gratification. It's not 1 more towards the goal, RNG doesn't care about 1 more or 10 more or 100 more.  It's 1 more wasted instance of time spent. Which is why so many games that use RNG based rewards also have deterministic 'quest' rewards or very lenient drops and let the rng mostly influence small nuances of that drop.

 

 

As someone who plays regularly but casually I truly think people start complaining way to easily.  Personally I play on average a couple hours a day on top of a personal life and a full time job and I have been playing since open beta and have pretty much everything at his point.  It's been my experience that you can and will get everything and that far to many people are too worried about getting it sooner and getting frustrated unnecessarily. 

It's entirely valid to be frustrated in these cases because There is no defined expected time to acquire an item set by DE. In fact, rng hurts expected time because some people probably will get it a lot sooner than others by the nature of RNG. And because they are the first people to get the item after the update, and therefore the first to talk about it, the expected time seems less than it is.

 

[arche]

Basic math here. If you have a very limited source of something then the percentage chance of getting said thing from said source doesn't have to be incredibly low because the limited sources stacks with the lower chance.  Since in this case you have functionally 1 rare, 2 uncommon, and 1 common beacon types even at 15% (an example) Delta beacons would have been fairly rare (as the gate way piece they should be) because it's only 15% once a mission.

 

DE recognized that restricting the source was not really all that fun, so they boosted the spawn rate of the source by hundreds of percent.  But now that 15% of a delta per mission is significantly higher because it's now 15% PER mob not mission.  By lowering the drop rate of Deltas they bring the drop rate of the gateway piece back into line of the intended rarity.  Keep in mind that percentages are 0 sum and if you take from one it's going to others so look at the following examples:

 

- If you dropped all three types you create a "super" common and three relatively rare pieces - worse than the current situation

- If you Dropped 2  types you have 1 common, 1 uncommon, 2 rare - worse than current

- You can't drop all of them without the ratios staying the same so that's out

- and you can't leave them the same without it being ludicrously easy, so that's out

 

What they did was create a single rare piece that still isn't impossible or even all that hard to get (if you are trying) resulting in a ratio of beacons that fairly assures that you will be able to build a key when you have enough deltas to do so.  It was the right call and it's better than it was when the drop rate was higher but the spawn rate was lower.

You are wrong. Making the mob spawn more than once per mission doesn't increase the drop rate. going through 15waves get you 9more mob than doing 5 wave per time. The only they did was making it easier for you to farm. Not increasing the drop rate. There is a difference. 

[SirAuron]

As someone who plays regularly but casually I truly think people start complaining way to easily.  Personally I play on average a couple hours a day on top of a personal life and a full time job and I have been playing since open beta and have pretty much everything at his point.  It's been my experience that you can and will get everything and that far to many people are too worried about getting it sooner and getting frustrated unnecessarily. 

I get drop faster than other, all warframe and weapon parts faster than everyone so I should feel the same way you do but in the end, it's simply luck and maybe what others are not doing.

 

So you cannot base any situation on your luck or the luck of 20 clan members. If there are many that have issues getting even one, either the system is biased, their luck is crap or the system maybe playing favorites or might need to be looked at. If you do 5 survivals without one or 3-4. Something isn't right.

[Zkorp]

the problem with RNG is just that you want something from the game and not play the game for what it is.

It's look like you don't even like to play and kill mobs you just want something "new", badly...

I play the game for killing a lot of mobs, loots always come even if it's not instantaneous, they will eventually drops.

 

play for playing not for looting...

[arche]

the problem with RNG is just that you want something from the game and not play the game for what it is.

It's look like you don't even like to play and kill mobs you just want something "new", badly...

I play the game for killing a lot of mobs, loots always come even if it's not instantaneous, they will eventually drops.

 

play for playing not for looting...

Its not possible for most veterans because our weapons got so overpowered that we can easily mow down any mob in the game, making it boring. Therefore we want content. When new things comes out, of course most of the veterans will go for it because they have nothing else to do in the game.

[izzatuw]

R.I.P... Nugget_ Clan warlord

[Althix]

making it boring.

making it boring. yes pretty much.

my sentinel can solo ceres nuovo for 30 minues alone and with some help 50 minutes.  let say as it now i am 4383 (i believe) mastery points behind MR16. Which leads me to believe that in the first two days after U13 some people already made it MR16. Which is good i guess, on the other hand there is no point in all that. I was playing exactly 3 days after U13, however where i was playing?

Ceres Kiste? old mobile defense.

Pluto OT and Narcissus? Endless defense.

I wasn't playing survival because i am the only one member of my clan who is still playing once in a month. Because rest of my cell already quit for good.

I wasn't playing Interception, i wasn't playing highjack either. Because these game modes have no value. I wasn't playing new tile sets. Like Gas City or Earth, simply because of spawn system. These tilesets so bad, than even corpus outpost mobile defense looks decent. And i am not talking here about how these tilesets looks, i am talking about kills per minute ratio and this is where these tilesets failed. Sadly. If i can't have 80 kills per minute, i will not play this mode, because it's a waste of my time. Normal players are killing 1000-1200 mobs in 13 minutes. And solo player is killing up to 900 for the same time.

 

And reason for that is, all new game modes brought nothing useful or fun enough. Nothing that would inspire both teamplay and decent affinity/mods/resources income.

I had built Solar Rail, hell i even have enough resources to build a solar rail for a moon clan solo. But again, what's the purpose behind it? No new game modes unlocked, no new tile sets (well except for one room that look different). Pointless. And yes i understand that Dark Sectors is still WIP. I well at least i hope it is.

 

As it was mentioned many, many times before game is in stagnation. It reached some level of content and stopped. Nothing was added to give more depth needed. Visual and cosmetic redo is not the same than have a new game mode to play.

 

Some time ago i was thinking that DE just don't want to split their player base on two sides. On hardcore and casual players, because if you recall, some time ago some players voiced their displeasure about the fact, that events were only active for the couple of days and they simply don't have time to participate in the events. Some of us indeed have families and other activities. So window for events was extended to a week long. Which is good... i guess.

However problem is not in difference of demands of players base. Warframe in current state of it's ingame mechanics can't be a skill based or skill dependant game. Therefore we can't have a game mode that will include some challenge for a player base. The only thing that can stop us, is that we will face either armor scaling or time barrier (as you ay know group of buriburi simply won survival, there were no more spawns after some point.)

 

So kinda this. It was mentioned before, by me, by other players who actually gave this game a lot of personal time, money, hopes. But... we have what we have.

[Luminati07]

the problem with RNG is just that you want something from the game and not play the game for what it is.

It's look like you don't even like to play and kill mobs you just want something "new", badly...

I play the game for killing a lot of mobs, loots always come even if it's not instantaneous, they will eventually drops.

 

play for playing not for looting...

I was playing the game for what it is. A farming simulator.

 

Plenty of players use this argument, that you should only play for fun. I agree with the statement, but what do I play for when the game is no longer able to hold a player with the novelty of mowing down thousands of enemies without a shred of difficulty?

 

You can tell me to ignore RNG and grind all you want, but let me direct your attention to Update 13.

Melee 2.0 - Hyped to hell and back building a tonne of player anticipation. Locked behind multiple layers of RNG, and put behind a massive grind wall.

Vay Hek - Hyped to hell and back and locked behind RNG and grind walls.

 

Tell me again how I'm just supposed to enjoy content when it's locked behind these walls. Please do.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Nugget_

[arche]

-snip-

Thanks for spending the time to actually type what I'm trying to say.

 

I was playing the game for what it is. A farming simulator.

 

Plenty of players use this argument, that you should only play for fun. I agree with the statement, but what do I play for when the game is no longer able to hold a player with the novelty of mowing down thousands of enemies without a shred of difficulty?

 

You can tell me to ignore RNG and grind all you want, but let me direct your attention to Update 13.

Melee 2.0 - Hyped to hell and back building a tonne of player anticipation. Locked behind multiple layers of RNG, and put behind a massive grind wall.

Vay Hek - Hyped to hell and back and locked behind RNG and grind walls.

 

Tell me again how I'm just supposed to enjoy content when it's locked behind these walls. Please do.

Let me add a little something too. DE: " We are aware of the grind and will reduce it" Bam~ U13 comes.

[Luminati07]

New, and final edit added.

[CBAROG]

Farewell, Nugget_. Hope you will find your ideal game.

Edited April 21, 2014 by CBAROG

[LukeAura]

Tis a dark day then.
Enjoy your greener pastures all the same. 
 

[Rakosta_Kai]

While I didn't always agree with Nugget_, I did respect his views.

 

U13 has been a lot of things good and bad... But what it told me, most clearly, is that RNG (in it's current form) is here to stay...

Nugget_ clearly called that one.

 

As of U13, I am now viewing the game as indirectly P2W... Only DE is acting as the Bank as opposed to the Cashier and letting short item supply encourage Platinum purchases.

Whether that's on purpose or not is irrelevant... It's happening.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

Nugget, what you have to understand is that all games have flaws.  Warframe's flaw is RNG, and its sort of just intrisicially part of the game and the economy that DE want.   Good luck finding a game that doesnt have an overpowering flaw, Nugget.  You won't.

While I didn't always agree with Nugget_, I did respect his views.

 

U13 has been a lot of things good and bad... But what it told me, most clearly, is that RNG (in it's current form) is here to stay...

Nugget_ clearly called that one.

 

As of U13, I am now viewing the game as indirectly P2W... Only DE is acting as the Bank as opposed to the Cashier and letting short item supply encourage Platinum purchases.

Whether that's on purpose or not is irrelevant... It's happening.

Whats wrong with that?  Hm?  It's an economy.  It's a trading economy right out of an MMO.  In my opinion this is for the better.  It adds another breathing layer to the game.  THEY HAVE TO MAKE MONEY SOMEHOW.

 

enough with this defeatist, whiny, doom-and-gloom talk.  Warframe is what it is and I'm sorry that you got bored of it. 

And dont you dare call DE a joke.  They worked for over a decade to make the game of their vision and here it is.  I respect them for that dedication, that love of what they do.  They are not a joke, because they worked hard towards this goal, past even their repeated denial and failures.. 

 

They aren't perfect, they could fix RNG, but honestly that's just part of this game whether you like it or not. 

Seriously though, good luck finding a game that's perfect, or that has a clear vision, or that's always moving ahead.  No game has ever done that.  At least not like what you're thinking.  There will never be a "nail on the head" update.  it comes over time, and I honestly dont know why but that's just how it works. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gaminus

[Luminati07]

 Good luck finding a game that doesnt have an overpowering flaw, Nugget.  You won't.

At what point did I ever mention that I am going to find a game without flaws?

Finding it hard? Right, because I didn't.

 

"Don't you dare call DE a joke"

Mate, I don't care if its a game developer, a person on the street, or a @(*()$ circus animal.

If someone is going to break promises on numerous occasions, I'll call them a joke, no matter what their background story is.

The fact that they worked for 10 years to create Warframe (and I seriously doubt its current iteration was their original vision) is irrelevant.

[LukeAura]

 

Whats wrong with that?  Hm?  It's an economy.  It's a trading economy right out of an MMO.  In my opinion this is for the better.  It adds another breathing layer to the game.  THEY HAVE TO MAKE MONEY SOMEHOW.

 

And dont you dare call DE a joke.  They worked for over a decade to make the game of their vision and here it is.  I respect them for that dedication, that love of what they do.  They are not a joke, because they worked hard towards this goal, past even their repeated denial and failures.. 

Cause it's effectively being P2W by creating unreasonable time gaps and grind walls from the most basic changes and content of U13, which is the metaphorical devil of F2P games.

And they have plenty of other ways to make money, that are openly ways to make money. Cosmetics, Prime Access, exclusives, slots. 

But creating large grind walls against basic content like boss fights and the enhanced melee system that can be skipped with cash is wrong. 

Their repeated denial and failures and you still don't see why Nugget calls them a joke? Denying issues is a bad thing, and with how strongly they deny some issues and go back on their word it certainly is laughable.

I can spend 24 hours hammering a screw and people will laugh at me for not using a screwdriver. Effort means nothing without solid direction and basic sense.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

Cause it's effectively being P2W by creating unreasonable time gaps and grind walls from the most basic changes and content of U13, which is the metaphorical devil of F2P games.

And they have plenty of other ways to make money, that are openly ways to make money. Cosmetics, Prime Access, exclusives, slots. 

But creating large grind walls against basic content like boss fights and the enhanced melee system that can be skipped with cash is wrong. 

Their repeated denial and failures and you still don't see why Nugget calls them a joke? Denying issues is a bad thing, and with how strongly they deny some issues and go back on their word it certainly is laughable.

I can spend 24 hours hammering a screw and people will laugh at me for not using a screwdriver. Effort means nothing without solid direction and basic sense.

They are working towards a mini EVE online, so that explains the economy and the plat and the whole "Cashier" thing.  Sure, they have other ways of making money but regardless this is a mechanic they're setting up here.  It's for metagame.

 

They don't deny issues.  They work past them.  Sure, they arent the most on-target Developers but who is?  Even Valve bumble around issues for a while before actually fixing them.  It's just human nature.  But when de finally find that screwdriver they'll work wonders with it.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gaminus