Nekros Critiques And Proposals - Last Updated 1/13

[Archwizard]

What I would love to see:

 

Base stats: Increase Energy pool, and (possibly) increase Speed from 1.1 to 1.15. Leave everything else untouched.

Well, they boosted his speed by 10% to make up for reducing his shields by 10% from Excalibur.

For them to buff his energy, they'd have to further nerf his survival, eg armor.

[Archwizard]

I think Soul Punch should change to do AoE damage from the Initial Target. More simple and usefull.

 

Also true, but it would be an interesting experiment to see a frame whose first skill provides some fundamental synergy with the rest of their skillset, while still being a strong standalone skill.

 

Thus far the only frame who dabbles in that is... maybe Mag.

Loki being the exception to all rules.

 

Given the aimlessness of Soul Punch (the secondary projectile just does not work as long as we can't see it and it's that thin), it seems like the prime candidate, especially given the problems inherent with Shadows of the Dead.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Archwizard

[Charismo]

Soul Punch really shines when used from an elevated position. It sends enemies flying back, while also easily procing surrounding enemies as if it were an AoE attack.  I've gotten a good taste of that on these Invasion missions.

 

Like most of Nerko's abilities, I love the idea behind them. The Soul projectile idea is one that I really wish worked out, but it simply doesn't. I'm not the first to say it but I think that instead of a soul projectile flying out the back of enemies, that a small to medium sized "soul explosion" AoE effect was used, simular to a Shockwave Moa's stomp. This would bring it more in line to the way it acts when used from those higher elevations.

 

As far as the issue of synergy goes, enemies caught in the soul explosion should be marked for a higher priority agro from summoned shadows, quickly drawing their fire while downed.

 

Terrify is great for clearing enemies quickly out of an area, but adding a slight slowing effect to affected enemies would be a great help in tracking them down once they're on the run.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Charismo

[Foxtrot_VII]

Now, this is all opinion, and I have not read through all of these pages but:

In my opinion, Nekros is a necromancer frame - he should focus specifically on manipulating the dead through his 'powers', I dont think 'nanobots' should be used (both for desecrate and for an explantion for shadows of the dead), why do we need an explantion any way? necromancey would be closer to magic than science, something more befitting IMO would be say "Nekros feeds of the souls of the dead, drawing sustanence from their lifeless husks" (energy/health? dosn't really explain ammo etc however)

 

I like the idea of soul punch adding 'priority' souls, however, just a suggestion, why not (idk through what means) the more 'souls' you have, the more damage soul punch does and cost less energy, as if you're using a soul itself to attack, not attacking the soul (if that makes any sense xD)

 

Bit off topic (an I apologise for going so off topic), a cool ability IMO would of been something along the lines of being toggleable.

Nekros, goes all melee (can still use powers),with increased movement speed (and melee damage?), every kill he gets would regen a slight amount of health or energy and amplify his soul punch ("drawing power from the dead")? Maybe even have his model being slightly hunched with a 'shadowy' cloak on his back - very fitting to the necromancer/reaper theme IMO, and would make nekros unique in that he could survive off his abilities, given he is an 'end-game' frame a change of pace would be good to those with lvl 30, potatoed, formaed everything.

 

EDIT: ^^^^^ could work when terrify is active/last for its duration???

 

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Foxtrot_VII

[Archwizard]

Bit off topic (an I apologise for going so off topic), a cool ability IMO would of been something along the lines of being toggleable.

Nekros, goes all melee (can still use powers),with increased movement speed (and melee damage?), every kill he gets would regen a slight amount of health or energy and amplify his soul punch ("drawing power from the dead")? Maybe even have his model being slightly hunched with a 'shadowy' cloak on his back - very fitting to the necromancer/reaper theme IMO, and would make nekros unique in that he could survive off his abilities, given he is an 'end-game' frame a change of pace would be good to those with lvl 30, potatoed, formaed everything.

 

Not quite sure about this suggestion, since it seems a cross between what Trinity is already capable of and what the Berserker should be able to do. If he were to have a life drain effect, I'd prefer it to just be an instant ranged (possibly even conic AoE) attack, not a melee stance- while it might match his polarities, it doesn't match his stats or his real intent as a pet frame.

[Archwizard]

I like the idea of soul punch adding 'priority' souls, however, just a suggestion, why not (idk through what means) the more 'souls' you have, the more damage soul punch does and cost less energy, as if you're using a soul itself to attack, not attacking the soul (if that makes any sense xD)

 

I feel like if the priority system were to be implemented AND Soul Punch increased the target's threat to Shadows, then that would probably be a bit much for Soul Punch to do.

 

Might be an interesting idea for a future frame though.

[Archwizard]

Now, this is all opinion, and I have not read through all of these pages but:

In my opinion, Nekros is a necromancer frame - he should focus specifically on manipulating the dead through his 'powers', I dont think 'nanobots' should be used (both for desecrate and for an explantion for shadows of the dead), why do we need an explantion any way? necromancey would be closer to magic than science, something more befitting IMO would be say "Nekros feeds of the souls of the dead, drawing sustanence from their lifeless husks" (energy/health? dosn't really explain ammo etc however)

 

Speaking as a matter of opinion? I like the idea of it not being entirely one or the other. 

Warframes seem to be a mix of advanced technology and what is hinted to be legitimately supernatural abilities; nobody really knows where their powers come from, as stated at the end of the Arid Fear event splash screen (in which Captain Vor scoffed at the Corpus' attempts to hide within the Void due to the Tenno's "ties" to that place, even stating his belief our powers come from "whatever demons reside within"). It would make sense- even if their powers were wholly technological in origin- for the Tenno to play up superstitions against their enemies. Honestly, I'm not sure even the Tenno know one way or the other.

I'm okay with having pseudo-scientific explanations for Warframe powers with much darker, more mystical aesthetics, ie stealing souls, exhaling swarms of flies or calling forth solid shadows. It befits a shinobi's methods of psychological warfare.

[Foxtrot_VII]

If he were to have a life drain effect, I'd prefer it to just be an instant ranged (possibly even conic AoE) attack, not a melee stance- while it might match his polarities, it doesn't match his stats or his real intent as a pet frame.

 

True, again, just a suggestion.

Just thinking about it, he kind of has 'life drain' through his desecrate (seriously 90% time I get health orbs).

 

 

I feel like if the priority system were to be implemented AND Soul Punch increased the target's threat to Shadows, then that would probably be a bit much for Soul Punch to do.

 

Yeah I guess it is a bit too much for a spammable 25 energy ability - I'd just like to see some more 'utility/synergy' come from his abilities (like the armor debuff from soul punch, albeit not much, still adds a bit of use to the ability), having said that, I do have to say, his abilities are nearly all equally effective throughout the whole of the game (aside from damage from soul punch)

 

 It would make sense- even if their powers were wholly technological in origin- for the Tenno to play up superstitions against their enemies. Honestly, I'm not sure even the Tenno know one way or the other.

I'm okay with having pseudo-scientific explanations for Warframe powers with much darker, more mystical aesthetics, ie stealing souls, exhaling swarms of flies or calling forth solid shadows. It befits a shinobi's methods of psychological warfare.

 

 Fair enough point - makes sense I guess, after all, Tenno =/= human, and Nekros is the 'fear' warframe, more adapted to psychological warfare - explaining how Nekros appears a bit more 'ceremonial' in appearance.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Foxtrot_VII

[DeathInk]

Nekros is one of my favorite frames, and I feel the same way.

Soul punch is ok, could use some work, love the idea of stealing the soul and making minions focus the affected target.
Terrify... love-hate relationship here. When a teammate is down and I'm surrounded, it works great for a room clearing spell to give me a minute to pick a brother off his back and get him into the fight. But I agree, sending enemies miles away in terror is a bit much, especially in exterminate.

Now, I do like your "flies" suggestion for desecrate, but I have y own suggestion. Replace desecrate with a spell to raise the corpses that litter the battlefield around you (no more being the jerk stealing kills!), and change SotD to an AOE spell, which makes minions do more damage for a time, or causes the souls of enemies to leave their bodies, causing damage and dropping health orbs. Just some of my suggestions, doesn't change the fact that Nekros still needs work

Also soul punch could be renamed soul reap?

[Archwizard]

Also soul punch could be renamed soul reap?

Nah, they love the corniness of the name far too much. Just imagine that announcer from Dive Kick saying "Soar Paunchu!"

[DeathInk]

How about just rework Nekros' abilities so that
1. Soul punch -> Soul Reap:    Deal damage to a target by stealing his soul. Soul bursts out of the target in a small AOE, damaging and rag-dolling adjacent enemies. If target dies -> health orbs! If target lives -> Becomes a minion for x amount of time. 25 energy
2.Terrify -> Pure Terror:  Enemies nearby are stunned in fear. If below 20% health, they take their own life (except for bosses/stalker)(suggestion of course). 75 Energy

3. Desecrate -> Desecrate. But use the flies suggested. 50 energy
4. Shadows of the Dead -> The souls of the dead posses nearby enemies of the same type (ie if you have a napalm in cache, his soul cant posses anything but another napalm) or form shadows of their former selves if no vessel is available, and act as a loyal squad. Melee ghosts/possessed (ie infested)  follow you, but will move to attack closest enemies. Ranged ghosts/possessed stay close to you. All ghosts and possessed can be moved through and shot through by tenno. Possessed enemies look the same as ghosts, and if not killed when SotD wears off, they die like the ghosts too. Explanation: The ghost took their soul. end of story.

Edited October 31, 2013 by DeathInk

[DeathInk]

Nah, they love the corniness of the name far too much. Just imagine that announcer from Dive Kick saying "Soar Paunchu!"

That's true, they do love that name!

[Archwizard]

1. Soul punch -> Soul Reap:    Deal damage to a target by stealing his soul. Soul bursts out of the target in a small AOE, damaging and rag-dolling adjacent enemies. If target dies -> health orbs! If target lives -> Becomes a minion for x amount of time. 25 energy

 

Could work, though with the "if target lives" condition, it seems like Mind Control on crack. Not to mention the health orbs are redundant with Desecrate still in existence.

 

2.Terrify -> Pure Terror:  Enemies nearby are stunned in fear. If below 20% health, they take their own life (except for bosses/stalker)(suggestion of course). 75 Energy

 

Probably still a bit on the overpowered side. Wait no, that's... effectively just a health reduction.

A very morbid version.

But given who's casting it, I guess it could slide...

 

4. Shadows of the Dead -> The souls of the dead posses nearby enemies of the same type (ie if you have a napalm in cache, his soul cant posses anything but another napalm) or form shadows of their former selves if no vessel is available, and act as a loyal squad. Melee ghosts/possessed (ie infested)  follow you, but will move to attack closest enemies. Ranged ghosts/possessed stay close to you. All ghosts and possessed can be moved through and shot through by tenno. Possessed enemies look the same as ghosts, and if not killed when SotD wears off, they die like the ghosts too. Explanation: The ghost took their soul. end of story.

 

That... actually... could be interesting... Gives me a reason to not exclusively snipe heavies, at least. But again, any instant-death mechanic is sketchy.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Now, I do like your "flies" suggestion for desecrate, but I have y own suggestion. Replace desecrate with a spell to raise the corpses that litter the battlefield around you (no more being the jerk stealing kills!), and change SotD to an AOE spell, which makes minions do more damage for a time, or causes the souls of enemies to leave their bodies, causing damage and dropping health orbs. Just some of my suggestions, doesn't change the fact that Nekros still needs work

 

I'm not so sure about this suggestion; a replacement of Desecrate in such a manner would not only remove the last decent facet of the skillset (healing through the production of health orbs), but would still have the same problem as Desecrate in terms of corpses despawning.

Replacing Shadows of the Dead with a method of making health orbs would tackle the first of these, but just having the minions "do more damage" makes the effective cost of his ultimate 175 rather than 100, while the idea of it generally just being an AoE is rather boring when you consider how many ultimates are just glorified AoE damage moves (which is... all but 3 of the current ultimates including Shadows of the Dead itself).

[Archwizard]

4. Shadows of the Dead -> The souls of the dead posses nearby enemies of the same type (ie if you have a napalm in cache, his soul cant posses anything but another napalm) or form shadows of their former selves if no vessel is available, and act as a loyal squad. Melee ghosts/possessed (ie infested)  follow you, but will move to attack closest enemies. Ranged ghosts/possessed stay close to you. All ghosts and possessed can be moved through and shot through by tenno. Possessed enemies look the same as ghosts, and if not killed when SotD wears off, they die like the ghosts too. Explanation: The ghost took their soul. end of story.

That... actually... could be interesting... Gives me a reason to not exclusively snipe heavies, at least. But again, any instant-death mechanic is sketchy.

 

And now that I REALLY think about it, Defense/Survival missions. Snipe some heavies in the lower level ranges, pop Shadows of the Dead a few waves later against enemies double their level. Bonus points for Shadows of the Dead still giving you the "souls" of any enemies you kill- perpetuating the effect.

 

I withdraw my previous statement, that's more reason to snipe heavies.

[DeathInk]

And now that I REALLY think about it, Defense/Survival missions. Snipe some heavies in the lower level ranges, pop Shadows of the Dead a few waves later against enemies double their level. Bonus points for Shadows of the Dead still giving you the "souls" of any enemies you kill- perpetuating the effect.

 

I withdraw my previous statement, that's more reason to snipe heavies.

Good point, I can't say I thought of that. Perhaps a general AOE possession spell for x number of enemies around you, and shadows to even out so a minimum number of minions is spawned.

[DeathInk]

Although that would require not killing enemies for a few rounds, and being even more of a downer for your team

[Archwizard]

Good point, I can't say I thought of that. Perhaps a general AOE possession spell for x number of enemies around you, and shadows to even out so a minimum number of minions is spawned.

 

Sounds a bit much like a more limited, higher-cost Chaos, don't you think?

[Archwizard]

Although that would require not killing enemies for a few rounds, and being even more of a downer for your team

 

If the effect's self-perpetuating, (given that kills the Shadows make also count toward the effect- so enemies killed by the effect ending would count too...) after a certain point it wouldn't be true.

[DeathInk]

Sounds a bit much like a more limited, higher-cost Chaos, don't you think?

I guess so, but the enemies are a loyal squad I guess. That's why I suggested reworking desecrate to raise dead bodies as shadows, soul punch to drop health, (as to replace the health from desecrate) and have SotD be an AOE possession. It could be used to make sure Nekros constantly has minions, especially since desecrate only has a 50 energy cost, and a more or less limited effect (it only effects dead bodies, which tend to despawn quickly). But that leads to the question: what is the purpose of terrify? I guess it would be useful to stun enemies in place (make it so they don't run aimlessly) and debuffing their armor or whatever, allowing the party to kill enemies more effectively for the short time, similar to radial blind, but with the debuff, which might justify the 75 eng cost

[Archwizard]

I guess so, but the enemies are a loyal squad I guess. 

 

Either way, needs some AI changes to minions to work.

[WarlokLord]

Option for Reanimation/Shadows Of The Dead:

 

Keep track of Nekros` kills at all times. When Nekros uses Shadows Of The Dead, a random number of his kills come back as Shadows of their former selves (keep track of kill types as well). Anything that comes back is subtracted from his 'kill cache'. The kill count decreases slowly over time, the unused souls of the enemy expiring after a period.

[Archwizard]

Option for Reanimation/Shadows Of The Dead:

 

Keep track of Nekros` kills at all times. When Nekros uses Shadows Of The Dead, a random number of his kills come back as Shadows of their former selves (keep track of kill types as well). 

 

So you're saying the price for getting the ability to track Nekros' kills is... to make his collection utterly meaningless.

I don't see how that's any form of improvement.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

The kill count decreases slowly over time, the unused souls of the enemy expiring after a period.

 

Simply put: why.

 

It's bad enough that the skill has terrible AI and only affects kills made by Nekros (to say "and his Shadows" would be a joke), it doesn't need to be the only ultimate whose casting period is capable of expiring if you weren't fortunate enough to have the energy needed to spam-cast it- especially since Nekros has a very low energy cap.

 

That's the ADVANTAGE of Shadows of the Dead, by-the-by: you don't just spam it to win, you actually have to consider your arsenal when you fire it off- at least, in the ideal world where they actually can kill things.

 

There is simply no reason for the souls to expire prior to the end of the mission.

[Archwizard]

A few of the abilities don't fit the warframe style, a little too complex. I have made a post about Nekros before and I am happy to say we came to the same conclusion on the matter of Terrify. Asides from that I believe there are better, more straightforward fixes.

 

It's funny, the more I come back to this post and look it over, the only one of them I could see as "too complicated" by any stretch is Desecrate, and only because I know what I would like it to do (pre-emptively summon a swarm of flies that will automatically Desecrate corpses to mitigate imprecise timing on the player's part) but am scrambling just a tad on how to deal with it.

 

Terrify you yourself agree with, while the other two are brute-forcing the solutions to problems with the abilities; after all, Shadows of the Dead ALREADY has two different caches of souls to choose from (those caused by the player, and those caused by the Shadows)- I just don't think those should be treated any differently from one another, but that summoning priority should be in the hands of the player.

 

If anyone has any simpler alternative solutions to Desecrate in the same department, I'd be open to discussion. Admittedly, it's a personal preference that the flies be a part of it- but as long as the solution isn't another bland glowing debuff (Lootorbammo Prime!) or lag-inducing corpse extensions, I'm open to discussion toward any solution.