Warframe: Very Close To Pure P2W

[G3rman]

Sorry, but punishing players by making them spend real money is not a good business practice in F2P. Punishing them with in-game penalties on the other hand works out relatively well, as they are not losing anything tangible.

It doesn't matter what you specifically feel is too much or too little helping or hurting, its the simple fact that people realize platinum is basically real money and they don't want to spend it on an integral mechanic like revives.

Since the first mission of Mercury is in no way set up to be a training mission, giving free revives there is pointless.

F2P games are inherently casual and that appeals to a certain audience of gamers who enjoy a relatively easy time whenever they play. Handholding is an integral part of that, streamlining it so it doesn't bother experienced players but is also present for those who need it is crucial. You are wanting Warframe to become something it honestly cannot become if it wants to survive as a F2P title.

Edited February 23, 2013 by G3rman

[negutivzero]

I feel like there's been a sudden influx of threads like these lately. Going on about how free players aren't getting enough free stuff I mean.

[neKroMancer]

I think Warframe's P2convenience design is quite fine.

Revive isn't exactly limiting gameplay. Even if you spend all revives on Pluto - you can still continue playing without revive, No revive =/= No play. New players should stick with beginner's area like Mercury where things aren't as deadly as late level anyway. Dying in Mercury is quite unthinkable even when playing with lv1 starter frame and MK1Braton.

Slot is one argument that really is problematic. Right now we have two frame slots and eight weapon slots + 50 plat for free player. Everyone want more slots which is understandable since it's the ony thing in the game that require platinum purchase. However, with future updates planned, more frames will be created - see the problem? There will never be enough slot. Even DE dicide to be generous and increase beginning slot to 6 frame slots and 18 weapon slots when there're probably 12 frames and 30 weapons in the market - There'll always be players crying about this subject.

As for buying new frame with plat - it should be expensive. I think the price is meant to discourage players from outright buy the frame and go play the game and earn it instead.

[G3rman]

As for buying new frame with plat - it should be expensive. I think the price is meant to discourage players from outright buy the frame and go play the game and earn it instead.

No, no, and no. You do not want to discourage anyone from buying anything in your cash shop, that's the entire point is to spend cash. Spending $30 on a single item in any game, class or no, is too much. New players start with 50 patinum which is less than $5. Warframes should ideally sit somewhere below $20. It is impossible for a new player to get more platinum to reach the required amount unless they buy it anyway, so your argument is invalid.

Edited February 23, 2013 by G3rman

[SoulEchelon]

Sorry, but punishing players by making them spend real money is not a good business practice in F2P. Punishing them with in-game penalties on the other hand works out relatively well, as they are not losing anything tangible.

Players are punished by having to use the revives they already have. It's not like you INSTANTLY have to pay money to continue playing if you die - ala ALOT of other F2P games out there. 4 revives a day. Automatically refilled. Isn't shared between multiple warframes. You keep pointing out the absolute lowest common denominator of skill in people playing a game like this, and ignoring all the things DE has placed between the player dying and having to buy revives. It's not as if you can't continue playing anyway. As someone else stated earlier, ALL of your drops, exp, and earnings are saved if you forfeit the mission anyway. So if you die and you're out of revives....just forfeit and retry. You don't lose anything - not even your time, really.

It doesn't matter what you specifically feel is too much or too little helping or hurting, its the simple fact that people realize platinum is basically real money and they don't want to spend it on an integral mechanic like revives.

Again, that's their choice, and they aren't really punished severely for not buying more revives anyway.

Since the first mission of Mercury is in no way set up to be a training mission, giving free revives there is pointless.

So you completely disreguard my "olive branch" of a proposal because you think it's pointless. Gotcha. Oh, and btw, it's not pointless. Having a mission that's NOT designed to be a training mission but instead designed as one you'll be playing in the normal game giving free revives is a GOOD thing. Training is just that - Training. You learn the ropes, but you're not being put in the same danger and situations as the real thing.

F2P games are inherently casual and that appeals to a certain audience of gamers who enjoy a relatively easy time whenever they play. Handholding is an integral part of that, streamlining it so it doesn't bother experienced players but is also present for those who need it is crucial. You are wanting Warframe to become something it honestly cannot become if it wants to survive as a F2P title.

No, I want Warframe to become a game where casuals can play as much as they like as well as the "hardcore" type. But I also want this game to stay afloat - both in popularity and in costs. You're trying to do away with something that not only costs barely anything, but frankly doesn't need to be removed.

I feel like there's been a sudden influx of threads like these lately. Going on about how free players aren't getting enough free stuff I mean.

This. A thousand times this. It seems as if when the F2P open beta weekend came, we got an influx of people crying about how this game doesn't give enough free stuff when it frankly gives a -ton- of it. Freeloaders will be freeloaders, I suppose.

[G3rman]

If revives are so pointless and never used then why not do away with the system entirely? This is by your logic of course.

Yes, you are losing time if you choose to forfeit. Any progress you made toward beating that level is completely gone and, for those without team-mates that are willing to help, are completely screwed unless they spend an hour of carefully maneuvering the level a second time. The casual market will not want to waste this much time and frustration and will quit if they run into this roadblock. There is a pyschological effect behind seeing "Mission Failure" in gamers, so this is not good to encourage.

I don't see how its an olive branch when I made no inclination for something to that nature in the first place. Why are you trying to end the argument when you aren't solving anything by doing that? The mission is by no means a place for new players to fully explore the game; a dedicated tutorial level needs to be created for something like infinite revives to matter. With random tiles and enemy generation, there is a relatively good chance the players will not experience or understand all of what Warframe has to offer just by playing the first mission.

[Deucalian]

They're not entirely pointless. You get to pop back up where you were. Whoop-de-friggin-doo. This is a co-op game anyway meaning that you should have people around to revive you. Your entire argument is based around "People die and therefore constantly need Revives and therefore they should be free". It's the same in any game though; if you want to play solo then be ready to accept the consequences. It's not as if "Oh you died with no Revives? Psssh, you're gone til they reset." No. It just means that you need to be more careful and not charge in like an idiot every 3 seconds when there's 80+ enemies in a room. Even "casual" gamers should know that if you're playing solo you need to be careful. I'm by no means a hardcore gamer and I knew this fact waaaayyyy back when I was a little kid playing PS.

The system is fine the way it is. No one is saying "Well you want a Warframe, cough up the $. Well you want a weapon, cough up the $. Well you want Reactors/Catalysts, cough up the $." Everything excluding some color options, avatar images, and weapon skins are attainable in-game as a F2P player if you bother to work at it. As I said the only thing that actually warrants spending platinum on are slots and even then if you're one of those "I MUST HAZ IT ALL AND HAZ IT CAPPED" then you should have no issue paying a little bit of cash,

Be glad this isn't a Freemium game where you need to be a P2P player just so you can revive in the middle of a stage. As I said; DE was more than generous and gave people an inch and now they're gonna keep crying their way to a mile.

[aMannus]

I still laugh at how people complain about P2W games while the game is PvE only. How exactly does someone paying for an item influence your game in any way? At best it means they are only more effective at helping you finishing missions. If that doesn't fit you there's always the private mode. How can a PvE only game be wrong about selling items if purely having a price tag for them doesn't influence your game at all?

Complaining about prices being too high with valid reasons is alright, but complaining that certain things are for sale in general while it's still obtainable in the game is stupid.

[G3rman]

You did not read my argument at all. I am not saying the revives should be free by any means, but that making them require platinum is a really bad tactic of trying to make money. It is similar to facebook games requiring players to buy energy to continue to do tasks.

I have played worse F2P games than this (SW:TOR) and I know that DE's policies are arguably nicer. That does not mean however they are innocent or that their practices are necessarily better just because they have a slightly different value attached.

[SoulEchelon]

If revives are so pointless and never used then why not do away with the system entirely? This is by your logic of course.

To quote what I said before:

Infact, DE? Make this game harder. Make 4 revives all you get per day - no more "refilling". We need to toughen up this generation of easymode gamers.

Yes, you are losing time if you choose to forfeit. Any progress you made toward beating that level is completely gone and, for those without team-mates that are willing to help, are completely screwed unless they spend an hour of carefully maneuvering the level a second time. The casual market will not want to waste this much time and frustration and will quit if they run into this roadblock. There is a pyschological effect behind seeing "Mission Failure" in gamers, so this is not good to encourage.

I don't know the policies on this forum governing stating the names of other F2P games, but there's one that I'll just call "Vin" that does exactly what you just stated, yet it's hugely popular in Korea and Europe (and would be just as popular in the U.S. if the company's U.S. branch wasn't horrifyingly bad). You seem to think just because someone loses in a game, they'll instantly stop playing it forever. That's rarely the case - especially when they get a whopping 4 "extra lives" a day.

I don't see how its an olive branch when I made no inclination for something to that nature in the first place. Why are you trying to end the argument when you aren't solving anything by doing that? The mission is by no means a place for new players to fully explore the game; a dedicated tutorial level needs to be created for something like infinite revives to matter. With random tiles and enemy generation, there is a relatively good chance the players will not experience or understand all of what Warframe has to offer just by playing the first mission.

Then make a more broad tutorial while having the first real mission give free lives. THAT was my "olive branch" - you're just too damned argumentative to see it. Hell, I even agreed on your other suggestion about having the punishment instead be lowered rewards for each death, but woops - didn't see that too now did ya?

So if you're just going to keep arguing logic that both undermines the business side of a F2P game while also trying to make the game abhorrently easier than it already is while ALSO telling everyone who doesn't agree with you that their opinions are pointless, I officially don't believe you deserve my time any longer.

Good night. Off to do real world things.

[G3rman]

Haha, you seem to misinterpret my points constantly or don't properly express your own because of some built up frustration. If you will twist my words or not read them properly then I suppose I can't do much here either.

If you can't see benefits of arguing then this is a bit pointless. I didn't denounce your arguments as pointless, you just refuse to see my side or my attempt of trying to have you expand your point beyond your existing bias. You didn't make your points clear at all and just expect me to assume everything is what I want to see.

Cool that you like my idea or agree with it, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop arguing and trying to hammer out the issue. I shouldn't have to fall back on that as being an acceptable end to the conversation.

It is not undermining the business of a F2P by removing a seldom used feature, it may in fact help it by removing the platinum pressure effect entirely. They get their money from the cash shop just like any other F2P game does. Turning an integral mechanic into a money grabber does not make good design.

[Zonzai]

Respawns also cost less than a dollar, and you get 4 free respawns every single day. Not only that, EACH frame you own, no matter if it was crafted or bought, get their own respawns. There's no need to change this whatsoever. Hell, you really shouldn't be needing to revive yourself constantly anyway. I only used up my 4 revives while fighting a level 77 Jackal on Pluto that one-hit everyone constantly (during an alert yesterday), Other than that, and a few random careless moments soloing, I've NEVER had to use revives.....and my main warframe is Ember.

Long story short: You're doing something wrong. Don't blame DE for your lack of survival skills.

We're not even close to being on the same page here. You're talking about something completely different. I say "Warframe will be criticized for making people pay to revive" and you say "OMFG L2P nub?" It seems like you're a very confused little boy.

It doesn't even matter how many times you can revive per day and not pay. Both DE and you will have to spend all of your time defending this position to people who are &!$$ed about it and we will all suffer for it if the media and/or players blast DE for it. Which I think they will.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Zonzai

[breakandburn]

First things first, the game has huge potential. The gameplay is great, the combat is fast, frenetic and fun.

Its looks nice, and is actually well optimised for a beta.

Customisation is again great. Deep and complex, lots of options for builds and tactics.

Aaaaaaand then the "micro"-transactions show up, and things nosedive rapidly.

Its easy to argue that everything is "optional" and that nobody needs to buy anything to progress, and its true. As far as I know, the devs are going for "Pay-to-Shortcut" instead of "Pay-to-Win".

But £20 for a frame? Platinum sale options that go up to £100 (which should in itself tell you everything you want to know about Warframes "F2P" model). And the worst, most scummy kick in the teeth for free players I have ever seen (outside of maybe SW:TOR);

Pay 4 Respawns.

Wow. Just wow.

Pay to win. Against what exactly? As of now this is pure PvE.

You can get catalysts and warframes for free. You can play all high level missions with a full party. You are not playing against other people, i.e. you always play cooperatively. Four revives per day, per Warframe is pretty generous too.

Remember that you are not entitled to anything. Free to Play is a business model. Business means it has to generate profits to keep going.

It took me three weeks before I decided to throw some money in DE's direction, but considering the amount of time I've played and enjoyed the game so far, even in the beta stage, I've made a better "deal" than with some other AAA full price titles.

[Maeka]

The only thing I could see having any point is the amount of slots you get for your Warframes and Weapons. I'm sure there are a lot of people that like to collect things and wish to have an alternative way to store them. Besides that, I don't see a P2W arguement at all. Everything minus the color pallets and slots are available in an alternative way. Only difference is, is you have to actually go out and earn it and then build it. How is that P2W?

[Deucalian]

Because they don't get their way and it's therefore the devs fault for not making it easy for them.

Also you actually have ways to store stuff. I only have 4 Warframe slots (2 default and 2 bought) but I have every Warframe available to me. I just keep the actual Warframe stored as the blueprint as opposed to letting it sit and collect dust because I enjoy playing others more than some. Guess I'm just smarter in that rather than rage at DE for not giving me slots for things I won't play anyway, I just use the system that they give us to store them until I feel that I'd use them.

[Maeka]

Because they don't get their way and it's therefore the devs fault for not making it easy for them.

Also you actually have ways to store stuff. I only have 4 Warframe slots (2 default and 2 bought) but I have every Warframe available to me. I just keep the actual Warframe stored as the blueprint as opposed to letting it sit and collect dust because I enjoy playing others more than some. Guess I'm just smarter in that rather than rage at DE for not giving me slots for things I won't play anyway, I just use the system that they give us to store them until I feel that I'd use them.

Yeah I can understand that, but I personally want all the weapons and warframes and I want to max them at rank 30. I'm a completionist and it's what I do haha. So yeah, I know I buy slots. I'm just thinking about the people that are like me and can't afford to spend much or any on a game like this. I'm fine with the system, it's just a thought for others.

Still don't NEED it to win, so still not a P2W system of course. But it might be something to consider having a work around. Dunno.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Maeka

[Deucalian]

Like I said I wouldn't mind if DE did a "You get a choice per 3 levels" or something like that. It'd mean that you worked for it. But the whole "Well people who paid for it get it so I should too" argument is just...no.

As I said if you're a completionist then you really shouldn't have any problem spending at least $5. That's 75 platinum which is: 3 Warframe Slots & 2 Weapon Slots, 2 Warframe Slots & 4 Weapon Slots, 1 Warframe Slot & 8 Weapon Slots, or 12 Weapon Slots. That's on top of the 50 plat they give you to start. Given that there really isn't all that much to get in this game, 39 weapons (41 if you're a Grand Master in which case...don't cry that you don't want to spend money on this game -.-) and 10 Warframes (11 for...Master I think?), you're looking at a guesstimate of like maybe $30 for everything the game has to offer atm. It's not that bad compared to a lot of other titles.

[G3rman]

I could see Mastery playing a part in unlocking new slots; a single weapon and warframe slot each rank up. Its few and far between but it opens the player to the next tier of progression and if they need a slot sooner they can still just as easily buy it. P2Convenience at its finest.

[Black_ScOrpion01]

didnt read the whole thread

One problem with crafting aswell. lets say i go craft akbolto i have to buy 2 leto to craft 2 bolto so while this progress is ongoing i have to block 2 slots of weapons just to craft.

One solution could be that the weapons you got equipped not showing up in your inventory. that would safe 3 slots of weapons per frame ( that means also that you need 1 weapon ( main/side/meele ) spare in the inventory to change between frames ). The frame you use could be not showing up aswell would give you one slot more there and the world would looks pretty much better.

If you store weapons in a box and take it out to use them, there might be slot for a weapon but the weapon u took out isnt in anymore.

i think this way would be fine for players and dev's

players safe this way money and dev's anyway getting money from weapon/frame collectors

And for the topic there is no p2w in an pve game where u also can farm everything

[Kse_]

Or prime gear or color pickers, etc.

Point remains: slots are diversity, not power, and a pretty conventional thing to charge for and directly affects bandwidth and server capacity.

May I add something about my pet peeve with this game... Yea it's slots what else.

Right now I have 2 frames and about 7 weapons just sitting in my Foundry (I already am using 5 frames btw). To try that new stuff out, I'd need 88 plat. Just to try them out. I can't even tell whether they're good or not. If all of those items turn out not exactly good, I'm out of plat and end up with useless free slots until new content arrives.

Now, catalysts and reactors I kinda get. If you take a frame/wep to lvl 15, you have an idea what it is and whether it's worth upgrading. If it is, you spent some plat to get a better version of it. Straightforward enough. Just like with colors. You know what you're getting.

But when the slots are full, you need to buy more basically only to find it whether the new gun/frame is even worth it. Do you really want people to sell their supercharged, tweaked frames/weapons to try a new one?

I don't know, maybe in the future you'll provide 30 frames and 100 weapons to chose from and make it possible to craft one without having to hunt for rubedo/alloy like crazy, so it'll be worth it to spend some plat for slots to try new things. But at this stage, selling slots so players can betatest the remaining few frames and weapons isn't cool.

Consider: I won't buy those slots. It's just not good investnment, definitely not at this beta time. However if I had those slots in the first place, I'd try those frames and weapons and might purchase catalysts/reactors for them later. But now, stuff sitting in my foundry, I won't buy those upgrades because I can't try those frames and weapons because I have no slots. I sure as heck won't sell my lvl 30 Mag, lvl 30 Volt or lvl 30 Nyx, I won't even sell that Frost I don't like much but it took me ages to get his parts. So I won't try Loki sitting in my Foundry and therefore won't buy a reactor for that Loki. Do I make sense?

If I were in your place, I'd try to make and sell tweaked variations of each weapon. Like the Vandal - more damage, slower rate but otherwise the same gun like the standard Braton, that would be a straightforward platinum purchase for someone who knows the Braton but wants it slightly different. And a nicer design to boot. You already do that with alternative helmets and since I can see a lot of people running around with those helmets, it probably works (unless all of those which I saw got them from the few alerts). Doesn't this work better than selling slots?

No, you can't please everyone but you can definitely get closer than this.

[Cakes]

didnt read the whole thread

One problem with crafting aswell. lets say i go craft akbolto i have to buy 2 leto to craft 2 bolto so while this progress is ongoing i have to block 2 slots of weapons just to craft.

Just wanted to point out that the Lato is "consumed" in the crafting process and therefore no longer taking up one of your weapon slots. While I'm at it, might as well also mention that completed weapons/warframes in the Foundry do not take a slot until you click [Claim].

.:Lato typo

Edited February 23, 2013 by Cakes

[SoulEchelon]

We're not even close to being on the same page here. You're talking about something completely different. I say "Warframe will be criticized for making people pay to revive" and you say "OMFG L2P nub?" It seems like you're a very confused little boy.

Don't get mad. You're taking my post far too personally, and nowhere in said post did I use that sort of speech. I said, plain and simple, that making the revive system even MORE lenient than it already is will cut deeply into DE's pockets. At the moment there are barely any "money sinks" for real cash in this game. There's "Rushing" crafts and buying more weapon/frame slots, but those can't really be labelled as "sinks" because eventually the player will not want/need more slots or won't need to craft anything. Revives, on the other hand, can be consistently bought and refilled depending on the skill and the pockets of the player in question. That is what I meant - I wasn't saying YOU were bad or anyone else.

It doesn't even matter how many times you can revive per day and not pay. Both DE and you will have to spend all of your time defending this position to people who are &!$$ed about it and we will all suffer for it if the media and/or players blast DE for it. Which I think they will.

Extremely doubtful. Why? Once again I must bring up "Vin". This game was all over the place for a little while a few years ago, being advertised at E3, gaming magazines, and I THINK had a commercial at some point - I'm not sure. It was even featured on Xplay, a popular television gaming show (Rest in peace...). Vin gave you absolutely NO free revives other than through a few random events here and there. Though you can be revived by teammates, if you were playing solo then you were SOL unless you bought "Goddess Graces" with real cash. Was Vin attacked for this sort of thing? Nope. Not at all. Not by anyone. It wasn't criticized at all for this particular way of getting players' money. This sort of thing happens in many F2P games with "dungeon crawling" aspects. Revivals cost you money...or you just were dead and had to restart from the beginning.

So why, all of a sudden, would the "media" blast this particular F2P game for having a revival system that's even MORE LENIENT than what i've just shown as an example?

[Nokturnel]

This reminds me of the WarZ forums.

"ITS NOT P2W ITS JUST DIFFERENT AND YOU DONT UNDERSTAND IT"

Any game whose fanbase constantly complains "This isn't pay to win" basically means "Yea... this is pay to win I'm just in denial"

[MJ12]

Any game whose fanbase constantly complains "This isn't pay to win" basically means "Yea... this is pay to win I'm just in denial"

So if a game was 100% not Pay to Win, and I made a thread in the TF2 or DoTA2 or LoL forums claiming the game was "Pay to Win", that would suddenly make the game Pay to Win, because the fanbase would say "This isn't pay to win at all". Why people make such amazingly absurd assertions I have no idea, but it just makes them look incredibly foolish.

Of course, "Pay to Win" seems to have gained the current definition of "I have to pay for something I kind of want but can't instantly get no matter how useful or not it is" in a certain outspoken minority of gamers. So maybe that is true, from your point of view.

Edited February 23, 2013 by MJ12

[SoulEchelon]

So if a game was 100% not Pay to Win, and I made a thread in the TF2 or DoTA2 or LoL forums claiming the game was "Pay to Win", that would suddenly make the game Pay to Win, because the fanbase would say "This isn't pay to win at all". Why people make such amazingly absurd assertions I have no idea, but it just makes them look incredibly foolish.

Of course, "Pay to Win" seems to have gained the current definition of "I have to pay for something I kind of want but can't instantly get no matter how useful or not it is" in a certain outspoken minority of gamers. So maybe that is true, from your point of view.

They're called trolls.. and these in particular are extremely bad ones.