ReThinking Fissures, Relics & Releases

[Voltage]

This is how I feel about Fissures overall:

Relics need to be consolidated per Prime Access so there isn't as much bloat. This changes up RNG, it makes farming more straight forward, and it also reduces the overall roster of Prime Relics. We have 528 unique Relics as I am writing this post, and most of them aren't available anymore. This has been a predictable issue since Fissures were introduced in 2016. Not every Prime Part for a new Access needs a new Relic, and not every new Prime Access relic needs parts in it that are about to be Vaulted on the next rotation. I am not suggesting that you only need 1 or 2 Relics to finish an entire Prime Access, but you don't need nearly as many as we have now. Gunsen doesn't need all 3 parts in 1 Relic, but it can certainly have 1 Rare Wisp part and a common Gunsen part and vice versa. Consolidation relieves RNG in the scope of one access in isolation, it relieves the RNG on which Relics you need to farm, and it also relieves matchmaking for older Prime Access or older Relics in general. The downside to this would be that Prime gear would be even more trivial to earn than it already kind of is. As you can see through trade chat over the years, a new Prime and its gear get cheaper and cheaper within a 24 hour period of release the more time goes on. Though, you could argue that most Prime equipment aren't even the "best versions" when it comes to weapons anymore.

Remove Reactant. I don't know why this was ever added. Just finish a mission, and objective completion equals reward screen. It's how the rest of the game works, and the secondary objective just becomes annoying in missions where you can be "too efficient" at the mission (Disruption, Excavation, low level Exterminate/Capture, etc.). This is even worse when you consider crossplay. A console host Lith Fissure is an absolute disaster. It just is. That problem shouldn't be the player's to solve.

Repetition of low level content with little variety. I don't mind repetition in a game like Warframe. Clearly I've been around so long because it's not a huge deal. However, something wrong with Fissures is how low level enemies are with how repetitive the missions are for "high end" gear (I use the term "high end" lightly because of the current state of various weapon variants). Void Storms and Steel Path tried to spice things up, but it ultimately fails because these modes don't offer a meaningful difference in the drop table besides the unrewarding nature of the evergreen rewards in both Steel Path and Void Storms at the expense of the mission taking much longer. This is a problem that requires tackling many things at the same time, but here are my thoughts and suggestions on giving Fissures more variety, less repetition of one mission on a rotation, and promoting players to participate in different content:

Remove the ability for players to refine Relics. You're probably going to think I'm crazy, but hear me out. The nature of Traces creates several annoyances within Relics, two of which are alleviated through Boosters/Smeeta, and a higher Mastery Rank. These two things don't really have a place in Fissure restrictions. Removing them also removes their need to be something crafted for Dragon Keys. I am not asking for everyone to get crap drop rates though, and I think the drop chances of Relic rewards should depend on the type of mission selected. Here are the current drop rates based on Relic refinement:

• Intact - 76% Common (25.33% per individual drop), 22% Uncommon (11% per individual drop), 2% Rare
• Exceptional - 70% Common (23.33% per individual drop), 26% Uncommon (13% per individual drop), 4% Rare
• Flawless - 60% Common (20% per individual drop), 34% Uncommon (17% per individual drop), 6% Rare
• Radiant - 50% Common (16.67% per individual drop), 40% Uncommon (20% per individual drop), 10% Rare

With this, you widen the modes and mode variants in which Fissures/Relic opening can be applied. This reduces mission RNG and mission fatigue. You also allow players to open any Relic in any Fissure (with the exception of Requiem), and balance Relic drops based on level. A Steel Path mission should never reward less than an Axi Relic for base mission drop tables. Low to high level start chart missions offer an increasing level of drop rate tier, going from Intact to a cap at Flawless. Flawless and Radiant drop chances are reserved for Steel Path and Void Storm missions depending on their objectives (Void Storms would always be Radiant due to their mission length, but missions like Steel Path Capture, Sabotage, and Spy could be Flawless tier drop chances given how quickly spamming them would be). The amount of available Fissures is then scaled per reward tier to have a variety of gamemodes available across all tiers of the system, with the inclusion of specialized modes like Arbitrations, (Elite) Sanctuary Onslaught, Zariman missions (Void Armageddon, Void Cascade, Void Flood), Defection, etc. This encourages players to often burn more Relics as they will be more inclined to play the Fissure version of a mission they are doing. This also encourages players to go into Void Storms and Steel Path for the higher drop rates at the cost of mission speed. This also bumps up the drop tables for Requiem Relics in their base Fissures, and could change the mission booster for Endless Fissures from a Relic of varying tier to a Mod Drop Chance Booster.

I'm not in a position to have every little detail that would be just right depending on missions, but the basic suggestion is to spread out the existing drop chances and make them always available in a variety of ways. This promotes players into higher level content while removing an unnecessary middle-man step of how Relics are used. I don't believe this would have significant impact on value as most value comes from whether something is Vaulted. If a Relic is available, earning a set is rather trivial in isolation. The system becomes annoying and daunting the more you need from it. If you're just farming the newest Prime Access because you have everything before it, the current system is honestly laughable in terms of time needed to finish stuff.

What bothers me about Fissures the most is just how boring they are compared to the equipment they offer. The Reactant and Traces systems are also restricting on whether you can just play a mode at whatever speed you wish and earn rewards. Cherry-picking one suggestion of mine probably won't cut it. If you increase RNG in opening a Relic slightly, but severely cut down on the middle-man systems and bloat of the Relic roster, I think the experience overall wouldn't be negatively impacted.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Voltage

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

This is how I feel about Fissures overall:

Relics need to be consolidated per Prime Access so there isn't as much bloat. This changes up RNG, it makes farming more straight forward, and it also reduces the overall roster of Prime Relics. We have 528 unique Relics as I am writing this post, and most of them aren't available anymore. This has been a predictable issue since Fissures were introduced in 2016. Not every Prime Part for a new Access needs a new Relic, and not every new Prime Access relic needs parts in it that are about to be Vaulted on the next rotation. I am not suggesting that you only need 1 or 2 Relics to finish an entire Prime Access, but you don't need nearly as many as we have now. Gunsen doesn't need all 3 parts in 1 Relic, but it can certainly have 1 Rare Wisp part and a common Gunsen part and vice versa. Consolidation relieves RNG in the scope of one access in isolation, it relieves the RNG on which Relics you need to farm, and it also relieves matchmaking for older Prime Access or older Relics in general. The downside to this would be that Prime gear would be even more trivial to earn than it already kind of is. As you can see through trade chat over the years, a new Prime and its gear get cheaper and cheaper within a 24 hour period of release the more time goes on. Though, you could argue that most Prime equipment aren't even the "best versions" when it comes to weapons anymore.

Remove Reactant. I don't know why this was ever added. Just finish a mission, and objective completion equals reward screen. It's how the rest of the game works, and the secondary objective just becomes annoying in missions where you can be "too efficient" at the mission (Disruption, Excavation, low level Exterminate/Capture, etc.). This is even worse when you consider crossplay. A console host Lith Fissure is an absolute disaster. It just is. That problem shouldn't be the player's to solve.

Repetition of low level content with little variety. I don't mind repetition in a game like Warframe. Clearly I've been around so long because it's not a huge deal. However, something wrong with Fissures is how low level enemies are with how repetitive the missions are for "high end" gear (I use the term "high end" lightly because of the current state of various weapon variants). Void Storms and Steel Path tried to spice things up, but it ultimately fails because these modes don't offer a meaningful difference in the drop table besides the unrewarding nature of the evergreen rewards in both Steel Path and Void Storms at the expense of the mission taking much longer. This is a problem that requires tackling many things at the same time, but here are my thoughts and suggestions on giving Fissures more variety, less repetition of one mission on a rotation, and promoting players to participate in different content:

Remove the ability for players to refine Relics. You're probably going to think I'm crazy, but hear me out. The nature of Traces creates several annoyances within Relics, two of which are alleviated through Boosters/Smeeta, and a higher Mastery Rank. These two things don't really have a place in Fissure restrictions. Removing them also removes their need to be something crafted for Dragon Keys. I am not asking for everyone to get crap drop rates though, and I think the drop chances of Relic rewards should depend on the type of mission selected. Here are the current drop rates based on Relic refinement:

• Intact - 76% Common (25.33% per individual drop), 22% Uncommon (11% per individual drop), 2% Rare
• Exceptional - 70% Common (23.33% per individual drop), 26% Uncommon (13% per individual drop), 4% Rare
• Flawless - 60% Common (20% per individual drop), 34% Uncommon (17% per individual drop), 6% Rare
• Radiant - 50% Common (16.67% per individual drop), 40% Uncommon (20% per individual drop), 10% Rare

With this, you widen the modes and mode variants in which Fissures/Relic opening can be applied. This reduces mission RNG and mission fatigue. You also allow players to open any Relic in any Fissure (with the exception of Requiem), and balance Relic drops based on level. A Steel Path mission should never reward less than an Axi Relic for base mission drop tables. Low to high level start chart missions offer an increasing level of drop rate tier, going from Intact to a cap at Flawless. Flawless and Radiant drop chances are reserved for Steel Path and Void Storm missions depending on their objectives (Void Storms would always be Radiant due to their mission length, but missions like Steel Path Capture, Sabotage, and Spy could be Flawless tier drop chances given how quickly spamming them would be). The amount of available Fissures is then scaled per reward tier to have a variety of gamemodes available across all tiers of the system, with the inclusion of specialized modes like Arbitrations, (Elite) Sanctuary Onslaught, Zariman missions (Void Armageddon, Void Cascade, Void Flood), Defection, etc. This encourages players to often burn more Relics as they will be more inclined to play the Fissure version of a mission they are doing. This also encourages players to go into Void Storms and Steel Path for the higher drop rates at the cost of mission speed. This also bumps up the drop tables for Requiem Relics in their base Fissures, and could change the mission booster for Endless Fissures from a Relic of varying tier to a Mod Drop Chance Booster.

I'm not in a position to have every little detail that would be just right depending on missions, but the basic suggestion is to spread out the existing drop chances and make them always available in a variety of ways. This promotes players into higher level content while removing an unnecessary middle-man step of how Relics are used. I don't believe this would have significant impact on value as most value comes from whether something is Vaulted. If a Relic is available, earning a set is rather trivial in isolation. The system becomes annoying and daunting the more you need from it. If you're just farming the newest Prime Access because you have everything before it, the current system is honestly laughable in terms of time needed to finish stuff.

What bothers me about Fissures the most is just how boring they are compared to the equipment they offer. The Reactant and Traces systems are also restricting on whether you can just play a mode at whatever speed you wish and earn rewards. Cherry-picking one suggestion of mine probably won't cut it. If you increase RNG in opening a Relic slightly, but severely cut down on the middle-man systems and bloat of the Relic roster, I think the experience overall wouldn't be negatively impacted.

Gonna be honest I had a little trouble following this. I got:

1. Remove reactant (I'm actually totally onboard with this even by itself, or at least share it)
2. Remove relic refinement (and void traces)
3. Make it so players can crack any relic they want on any mission they want(?) All missions can be fissures (?)
4. Award relics on (all?) missions but automatically refine those relics for the player based on the mission type. The harder the mission, the better the refinement
5. Condense relics to reduce bloat

Let me know if I got something wrong or missed something. If this is a good summary then I like a lot of what you have going on here, but I see a potential problem where the only way to get radiant relics is to play SP. While I think the warframe population should be pushed into the SP, this feels a little unjust for new players, and for people playing nothing but SP they would have radiant overload, and you don't always want radiant. I feel like it might be smoother to award progressively better refined relics based on waves in endless missions or something, so if you stay for 20 waves in a defense you get an intact, a flawless, an exceptional and a radiant, for example - or at least the chance for them, with the type of relic based on the mission reward pool like it already is (?)

I especially like the suggestion to let players crack any relic they want, I've often had the thought that there should be a fissure that accepts any relic type, and players can just jump into it and do whatever, and this is along those lines but broader it sounds like.

 

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

1. Remove reactant (I'm actually totally onboard with this even by itself, or at least share it)
2. Remove relic refinement (and void traces)
3. Make it so players can crack any relic they want on any mission they want(?) All missions can be fissures (?)
4. Award relics on (all?) missions but automatically refine those relics for the player based on the mission type. The harder the mission, the better the refinement
5. Condense relics to reduce bloat

Let me know if I got something wrong or missed something. If this is a good summary then I like a lot of what you have going on here, but I see a potential problem where the only way to get radiant relics is to play SP. While I think the warframe population should be pushed into the SP, this feels a little unjust for new players, and for people playing nothing but SP they would have radiant overload, and you don't always want radiant. I feel like it might be smoother to award progressively better refined relics based on waves in endless missions or something, so if you stay for 20 waves in a defense you get an intact, a flawless, an exceptional and a radiant, for example - or at least the chance for them, with the type of relic based on the mission reward pool like it already is (?)

I especially like the suggestion to let players crack any relic they want, I've often had the thought that there should be a fissure that accepts any relic type, and players can just jump into it and do whatever, and this is along those lines but broader it sounds like.

1. Yes
2. Yes, but the refinement drop chances are moved away from refinement and relocated to where you open them.
3. Fissures are still a random event mission, but there is more variety in mission types with vastly more options possibly available. Instead of enemy level dictating which Relic tier you can open, it only restricts what drop chances the Relic has. So you could open an "Intact" tier of drop chance with an Axi Relic on Mariana Earth if you wanted, but you could also open a Lith Relic at "Radiant" tier drop chances in any Steel Path Fissure.
4. I'm using the refinement words to correlate to their drop chances. Refined Relics simply wouldn't exist. You play the game and earn Relics, and depending on where you open them, you would get higher/lower drop rates for Common/Uncommon/Rare Relic rewards.
5. Yes.

Not really though, because Void Storms could be the alternative to Steel Path for the same tier of drop chances. You're also forgetting that Relic cracking is often done in groups, and Flawless is still accessible in Normal Path Fissures. A player who hasn't finished their base starchart doesn't exactly need Radiant drop chances I feel, and Flawless on every Relic cracked in Sedna is still a vast improvement to mostly Intact Relics unless you refine every single Relic to Radiant when you plan to run (which isn't the case in public matchmaking). You're not unjust to new players by better refining progression in this game to slowly lead the player to harder content. Steel Path should be "normal mode" for the people with thousands of hours and immense power with rewards set accordingly. Unfortunately though, it's more of a side-toggle with mostly the same rewards, and players will often point out that you're gaining a marginal amount of rewards in very select areas while mission time skyrockets, meaning it's a waste of effort in most cases.

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

On 2023-07-29 at 2:47 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

Create a featured game mode that is only available during releases. This game mode only awards relics from the release

Why stop there? Just reward the new WF parts. Or even better let's ask DE for free WFs to existing players. Only nee players have to farm!

On 2023-07-29 at 2:47 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

Make relics individually purchasable for higher rates. Say I want a Meso S6 relic. Say I want 10 of them. What if I could buy a pack that would contain a guaranteed minimum of 33% (or something) Meso S6 relics instead of random relic pack #18?

Just add all unvaulted to Varzia. Sell 2x unvaulted relics per Aya 

Or, just leave everything alone. It's fine.

[Karyst]

On 2023-07-29 at 11:41 PM, PublikDomain said:

One thing I'd really like to see are condensed Relics. Instead of Axi A92, Neo Z36, Bingus J55 nonsense Relics that are all jumbled up and need to be vaulted, replaced, shuffled, and regenerated every 3 months, why not do what Baro and Prime Resurgence already do and just have one set of Relics for each PA right from the start?

For example, Baro's Axi V8 and Neo O1:

These contain every item you need for Volt PA. If DE started with this they'd never have needed to add all of these Relics: Axi N1, Axi N3, Axi V1, Axi V4, Axi L4, Axi K1, Axi T1, Lith V1, Lith F1, Lith K1, Lith O2, Lith F2, Meso C2, Meso O3, Meso V2, Meso V3, Neo V1, Neo V8, Neo N3, and Neo V8. It's just Relic E-waste.

Another example being the condensed Resurgence Relics like the current Lith K5, Lith M7, Meso E5. Neo B6, Axi H5, and Axi A12 which in just 6 Relics replace the dozens that contain Banshee and Mirage PA items.

Condensed Relic sets already exist and are already being used, so use them more often! Make 4 Relics per PA that contain just that PA's items plus filler like Forma and evergreen Primes as needed. Then instead of the 520+ Relics we have today, there'd be about 160. And then instead of giving them nonsense names like "A4" and "G7" they could just be given a set name. What do you get from Axi N1? Nezha? Nidus? Nyx? Nobbleberry? Wrong, you get Ash. But call it "Ash Axi Relic" and wow, now you can tell what's in that Relic without needing to look it up!

It'd make matchmaking easier to understand ("H [Nidus Meso Relic] 3/4"), make matchmaking easier to organize (since there'd only be one Nidus Meso Relic instead of the current 9), and make it easier for DE to manage and maintain (since they can just add/remove 4 Relics whenever they need to Vault/Unvault something instead of tracking down dozens to remove or replace). And it's not like this would need to change much downstream because, while Relic shares would need fewer total runs overall (since even "failing" a Share would get you something from that set), that can be managed through initial Relic drop rates.

What if I want Axi F69?