Limbo SP viability

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

14 hours ago, Raarsi said:

1. Believe it or not, changing just Banish and Cataclysm still wouldn't remove the Rift from the game.  His passive doesn't really provide any problematic consequences for other players like Banish or Cataclysm can, so there's not really any reason to change that.

2. It wouldn't really change the questline since all it boiled down to was that Limbo had a theory that backfired.  On top of that, if the passive was still intact, then your claim here falls apart.

3. I see frames like Hydroid and Inaros and see that falling more in-line with more modern frames really wouldn't be the worst thing for him.  He'd be more party-friendly, what's so wrong with that?

Don't get me wrong, I do like Limbo.  He has a neat aesthetic, but I'm fully aware that he has a glaring problem of easily becoming a glaring problem for others in a party that could be changed in a way that could make him more beneficial to parties in a more universally straightforward way for all players, new and old.

His lore goes like this:

SOMEONE in the orokin empire discovered the rift SOMEHOW while experimenting with the Void. They created a warframe to control that plane, named Limbo. Given its unique properties to phase through stuff, the people controlling the warframe thought of the nifty idea to make it go through the Void (may be to look for Lua, idk). Now the theorem/ technology that makes Riftwalking possible failed, as physics left the chat the moment limbo hit the Void. Due to this, spagettification/juicing/churning-whatever you u wanna call it-happened.

Now it is mentioned in the lore that limbo was able to send enemies into the rift, never to be seen again.

Rift is central to his theme. He didn't simply suck at math.

Now Inaros and Hydroid:

1. Inaros is what I call a dummy frame, warframe with no abilites(useful ones) . Soak up damage, let the weapons do the work. He is very limiting to play. Nothing wrong in that, just lackluster.

2. Hydroid is puddle of abilities without syneries and usefullness. His 1 is water tickling, 2 is a bad CC, 3... idk what it does., 4th locks you in a place and passive is useless.

These are genuine reasons for a complete overhaul. Limbo doesn't lack any jazz.

I have seen ideas in forums for their rework, all of them talk about preserving the idea of the warframe - Sand God, Pirate whatever. It gives it a character. Here you are advocating a saryn with limbo's passive. ...why?

If the only problem with limbo is team play, here is my solution:

Augment for Banish:

Uncertainty: Allies in the rift and enemies outside the rift can damage each other. Doesn't apply to limbo himself.

There, now everyone can benefit from stasis and no DPS capping while retaining everything about limbo.

 

 

[Raarsi]

18 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

SOMEONE in the orokin empire discovered the rift SOMEHOW while experimenting with the Void. They created a warframe to control that plane, named Limbo. Given its unique properties to phase through stuff, the people controlling the warframe thought of the nifty idea to make it go through the Void (may be to look for Lua, idk). Now the theorem/ technology that makes Riftwalking possible failed, as physics left the chat the moment limbo hit the Void. Due to this, spagettification/juicing/churning-whatever you u wanna call it-happened.

Now it is mentioned in the lore that limbo was able to send enemies into the rift, never to be seen again.

Where exactly in the lore is this specifically stated?  Please cite your sources, because all I got from his questline was...

Quote

"Operator, I think I know why we're finding Limbo parts scattered throughout the system. His final rift walk was a miscalc... --disaster.--"

...this quote from Ordis that pretty much states that Limbo failed at math.  Ultimately, the questline was just finding pieces of Limbo while Ordis was figuring out the Theorem.

18 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

Here you are advocating a saryn with limbo's passive. ...why?

Because it works without most Limbo players pissing off their teammates?

18 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

If the only problem with limbo is team play, here is my solution:

Augment for Banish:

Uncertainty: Allies in the rift and enemies outside the rift can damage each other. Doesn't apply to limbo himself.

There, now everyone can benefit from stasis and no DPS capping while retaining everything about limbo.

So really, the only difference between what I've been suggesting and what you have is that your "solution" wastes an augment slot.  That's all. 

At the end of the day, the "Rift-bound" effect caused by Banish is mechanically just another debuff, with the key difference is that it directly interferes with the gameplay experience of other players.  What I've been suggesting is to remove that element and establish "Rift-bound" as a more regular debuff that 1) won't interfere with group gameplay, 2) allows abilities like Stasis and Rift Surge to still work (they already work off of the "Rift-bound" debuff applied by Banish anyway), 3) improve Limbo's functionality as a support frame by adding damage increases and decreases to the "Rift-bound" debuff already in the game, and 4) make the frame less confusing for newer players in group content.  Heck, they could even adjust the lore so that the flavor text for Banish is about forcing enemies "temporarily through the Rift, leaving lingering effects", which would explain the debuff in-game.

While I apologize if I may not have ever been clear enough on the point I've been trying to make about the interdimensional illusionist, it should hopefully explain my confusion as to why you're so determined to place "lore" that can be tweaked easily enough over the enjoyment of other players.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

 

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

At the end of the day, the "Rift-bound" effect caused by Banish is mechanically just another debuff, with the key difference is that it directly interferes with the gameplay experience of other players.  What I've been suggesting is to remove that element and establish "Rift-bound" as a more regular debuff that 1) won't interfere with group gameplay, 2) allows abilities like Stasis and Rift Surge to still work (they already work off of the "Rift-bound" debuff applied by Banish anyway), 3) improve Limbo's functionality as a support frame by adding damage increases and decreases to the "Rift-bound" debuff already in the game, and 4) make the frame less confusing for newer players in group content.  Heck, they could even adjust the lore so that the flavor text for Banish is about forcing enemies "temporarily through the Rift, leaving lingering effects", which would explain the debuff in-game.

 

You are confusing me so much now. First you say you want his 2 and 3 to do more damage, to that I said why you want all damage abilities like saryn. Now you only want the riftplane removed... It feels like you are trying to fabricate this whole thing as we go.

Anyway, I will indulge you for the last time here:

Lets forget about the lore and quest here, say we work with 'temporarily through the rift'. Focusing on the build.

So the current version says. Keep the abilities same and just remove the rift plane. It will have following impact:

1. Utility: Defense limbo is dead. Excavation limbo is dead. Mobile defense limbo is dead. Ability based DPS setups with limbo are dead (Mesa, Gyre etc.), Spy limbo dead. Rescue limbo is dead. Limbo's utility is dead.

2. Survivability: Now that limbo don't have the protection of the riftplane, you have to fight the enemy in normal plane. That means TANKING DAMAGE. That means 3 mod slots. Or permanently sacrificing the heminth slot, but even then you need some tanking since now the eximus are a whole new threat. Now you can't stop their bullet even with stasis on. Infact you can't stop any projectiles.

3. Abilities: Passive is now useless. Cataclysm is useless.

This is a disaster.

Solo play will be most affected by this as now you have the undivided attention of every enemy in the game. Good luck trying to survive SP with all the .5 sec rift procing and 1 sec two hand animation of rift surging without rift plane.

Just take the Augment mod, trust me, modding is not the issue. Without the need to tank damage, you are freeing atleast 2 mods for steel path. Augment mod are created to facilitate a different kind of gameplay for a warframe. Thats in the job description.

Now if you want to discuss this build any further, create a separate post. This post has already deviated too much from the initial problem.

 

P.S.

Lore source:

Ordis: "This Limbo is quite mischievious. Zipping in and out of the rift, sending whole armies into a purgatory of his whole making. Physics is wonderful!"  (download, history)

Ordis: "The final part. I cannot wait. What harrowing leaps of cross-dimensional gymnastics will he attempt next?"  (download, history)

These happened in the quest. In the transcript parts of limbo theorem.

 Limbo's component blueprints were discovered by the player during the The Limbo Theorem quest, scattered across the Origin System as a result of the Warframe's miscalculations when crossing between the normal plane and the Void.

All sources from wiki. Could not upload pictures.

Also for some cross- dimensional gymnastics, you need some technology. No amount of math is going to get you there. It means some technology based on the Limbo Theorem was what Ordis was trying to reverse engineer and by extension trying to find the complete theorem. He didn't had a theory, he was build upon it. He did the miscalculation  because he was designed to do that miscalculation.

[Raarsi]

Okay, I can concede to Cataclysm being predominantly unchanged since there's also the damage component to factor in, and still applying the buff/debuff system that would be from Banish.  There, happy?

Now for the other things:

4 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

1. Utility:

By turning Banish into a buff/debuff system like I mentioned the first time (debuffing enemies to deal reduced damage to and increased damage from Limbo or any ally he has applied the buff to and buffs allies to deal increased damage to and take reduced damage from enemies with the debuff), it allows for roughly the same system except it doesn't only remove the gameplay interference factor, but it still comes out as a net gain in terms of support factor.

By keeping Cataclysm mostly the same and not touching his passive, that keeps most of his other utility in tact.  Except maybe Spy missions, which is pointless anyway since enemies can still see you in the Rift, you can still trigger traps in the Rift, and eximus units can still hit you regardless of whether you're in or out of the Rift.

4 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

2. Survivability:

Eximus units are a threat anyway, so why not deal with them in a way that more players would be able to handle?  Not only would things like Stasis still work because of that Banish buff/debuff system, but because of how I suggested the buff/debuff system would work, it would allow for helping to tank smaller enemies while still having his passive to deal with more extreme circumstances.

5 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

3. Abilities:

Cataclysm change mostly reverted, problem solved.

5 hours ago, K1ll8h0t_2454 said:

Solo play will be most affected by this as now you have the undivided attention of every enemy in the game. Good luck trying to survive SP with all the .5 sec rift procing and 1 sec two hand animation of rift surging without rift plane.

"Oh no, I have to have friends!  Whatever shall I do?!"  That's literally what that sounds like.

Anyway, yes, this is definitely an "agree to disagree" circumstance.  It's been a fun discussion, but it has run its course.

[K1ll8h0t_2454]

55 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

Okay, I can concede to Cataclysm being predominantly unchanged since there's also the damage component to factor in, and still applying the buff/debuff system that would be from Banish.  There, happy?

Finally!

That is an implementable change there! Change Banish and Radial banish to debuff than send enemies to the rift for a duration. In line with the lore by that nice momentary rift exposure and adds more functionality for public play.

Coming all the way from deleting limbo, this is much better.

Although I still think the Augment is a better solution since rift is back in the picture a big bubble is still a problem but like you said 'agree to disagree'.