Limit The Elemental Types To One Type Per Weapon.

[TwiceDead]

EDIT: 

DISCLAIMER
This was typed early in the morning after a day of work on a sunday and no sleep, so the following post is only a half-assed thought, as I didn't really think much about it and just typed. Remember to use your brains people, or else you get the following mess: 

 

Or do something that obliterates the cookie-cutter rainbow builds. 

Anyway my suggestion is to simply limit the amount of elemental types a weapon can have to 1 type per weapon. 
Which means your weapon can only have one of these + your weapons base damage. 

Fire
Cold
Lightning
Toxic
Gas

Blast 

Radiation

Viral

Corrosion

Magnetic

 

Which means if your weapons base damage already is an Electric elemental type weapon, you get Electric + Elemental type. 

Edited November 25, 2013 by TwiceDead

[MetalGerbil]

the current system works.

if you did go full tilt and pack in elemental mods, you will have it reduced to 2 actual elements (if you are a sane person) that are at that point very restrictive in terms of what they are optimal for.

which means that you are throwing ALOT of mods for extra damage that you dont even need most of the time (braindead high wave endless defence being the exception).

making this chance would improve nothing and would hit weps with catalyst the hardest. forcing you to put in fluff mods because what the hell else are you going to put there?

[Eirshy]

So make it impossible to have a gun that is all around good for T3?

 

Sounds like a GREAT idea! Completely great idea!

 

 

 

 

How about no.

 

Besides the "cookie cutter" build is something like Magnetic + Fire + Puncture, or Corrosive + Cold + Slashing. The problem is they made rainbow the *only* option because physical scales to only one physical stat rather than the gun's actual damage. Meaning you can't add a damage type to something that doesn't already have that damage type.

 

Fix that and Maybe. But even then no. No real reason.

[TwiceDead]

So make it impossible to have a gun that is all around good for T3?

 

Sounds like a GREAT idea! Completely great idea!

 

 

 

 

How about no.

How about yes? One of the reasons they introduced 2.0 was so that you couldn't just slap all the elemental mods on one weapon and be done with it. They wanted to have you switch weapons around in order to spice up gameplay. At current, that's not even necessary as all you need to do is slap all the elemental mods and the base damage scaling mods on one weapon and throw yourself into the fray.

 

Besides the "cookie cutter" build is something like Magnetic + Fire + Puncture, or Corrosive + Cold + Slashing. The problem is they made rainbow the *only* option because physical scales to only one physical stat rather than the gun's actual damage. Meaning you can't add a damage type to something that doesn't already have that damage type.

 

Fix that and Maybe. But even then no. No real reason.

In that case they should downscale the elemental mods to only give you 30% like the base IPS damage types do, rather than the current 90% you get from rifles and melee weapons, and 60% for pistols. 

To be entirely honest I have no idea how they should fix the rainbow issue, but it needs to go because it dumbs down gameplay severely. 

[Eirshy]

Okay no, they "claimed" that the goal was to stop rainbow builds. The real goal was almost definitely something much more noble. (unless u10 made some strange change that made Rainbow > Crit on crit-able weapons. Which I don't believe it did due to the comments I've seen on Ancients with Dmg2.0).

 

Why?

 

 

NOBODY USED RAINBOW BUILDS on anything that could do a crit build.

 

The only viable guns were ones that had innate armor bypassing damage types. You could brute-force your way into making a gun viable if it had good other stats to start, but it would still be out-performed by something that didn't have to overcome that hurdle. Guns like the Twin Vipers were able to solo T3 Exterms, but guns like the Gremlins or Kunai/Despair/Hikou/Acrid would simply do it better. The Vulkar was abject trash because it was Bullet damage.

 

The only time you'd use Rainbow (or Chromatic, as I usually called it) is if crit mods did nothing for you- because outside of fringe cases and low level content, those elemental mods did nothing for you as well because things like Ancients had over 90% DR past like level 45 (T3 keys went lv50-100, mostly in the 60-80 range). Crit mods were the only remaining way to increase your armor bypassing damage until Corrupted mods were introduced, at which point some guns adapted those into their builds.

 

Ye Olde Builde was literally AP + Cold. You'd add Electric or Fire depending on taste, and electric was actually better than fire simply because Moas were weak to it and didn't have armor scaling. Fire damage was good to help you clear light infested (since they took a long while to break 100 armor), but was all but usless the majority of the time. The only reason Cold got a free pass was its bonus damage to shields, and the fact that you had to break shields before you could crit. That may or may not still be a feature of shields, by the way, I can only confirm it was back in U9.

 

 

 

 

Now the new system is mostly suffering from the pains of elemental mods scaling better than physical mods. That's the primary reason why everyone's embracing elemental damage so much- because the physical mods suck with their current implementation.

 

So instead of nerfing things that are relatively balanced (snort), how about you buff things that are underpowered first?

 

This is practically a copypasta of one of the "Despair/Kunai needs nerfs" threads.

 

 

 

EDIT: Noted that it's the primary reason. The other reason is because elements have more cross-faction ability than physical, and things like Tower runs require a mix. Switching weapons is great and all, except it's extremely annoying to be required to do, especially if you're trying to builid something like a Lanka for tower runs. Weapons should fill combat roles, not anti-faction roles.

 

Hell, the Lanka even goes best as Corrosive (+Electric +Toxic with a r9 Serration and multishot gets you to 3500 listed) and a crit build.

Edited November 25, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[TwiceDead]

NOBODY USED RAINBOW BUILDS on anything that could do a crit build.

Lies. Rainbow Crit builds were plenty viable. 

The sniper's could all do it, so could the Synapse, and Soma.

Besides pre-update 11 there were hardly any weapons that were epic crit weapons, besides the ones I mentioned. 

 

Now the new system is mostly suffering from the pains of elemental mods scaling better than physical mods. That's the primary reason why everyone's embracing elemental damage so much- because the physical mods suck with their current implementation.

There, this I agree with. But that's not going to make rainbow builds any less valid even if you buff these physical mods, considering the elemental damage types seem to scale depending on all the IPS stats, so even if you buff the physical damage mods to grant 90% rather than 30%, you'll simply be giving your rainbow build more fuel. 

[Eirshy]

Lies. Rainbow Crit builds were plenty viable.

The sniper's could all do it, so could the Synapse, and Soma.

Besides pre-update 11 there were hardly any weapons that were epic crit weapons, besides the ones I mentioned.

There, this I agree with. But that's not going to make rainbow builds any less valid even if you buff these physical mods, considering the elemental damage types seem to scale depending on all the IPS stats, so even if you buff the physical damage mods to grant 90% rather than 30%, you'll simply be giving your rainbow build more fuel.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Also, don't tell me Rainbow Crit builds weren't viable. There was no such thing as Rainbow Crit. Because you couldn't physcially do them. You didn't have the mod space. 8 slots:

1) +Damage (Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike)

2) +Multishot (Split Chamber, Hell's Chamber, Barrel Diffusion)

3) +AP (Piercing Hit, Flechette, No Return)

4) +Cold (Cryo Rounds, Chilling Grasp, Deep Freeze)

5) +Crit Chance (Point Strike, Blundarbus, Pistol Gambit)

6) +Crit Damage (Vital Sense, Ravage, Target Cracker)

7) Combo Mod. Usually Hammer Shot on rifles (though some corrupted mods deseated it), Accelerated Blast for shotties, and Lethal Torrent for pistols.

That 8th mod was all you had left to play with. Most weapons took a weakness-fixer, such as the Lanka using a Speed Trigger to make its charge less of a hinderance. Some needed both aspd and reload speed (like the Lex) in order to deal with multiple targets. Others just plain needed an ammo sustaining mod (like the Twin Vipers).

As for not "epic crit weapons" I ran numbers back in the day and anything with a 15/150 or 10/200 chance/damage was better crit than rainbow by a sizeable margin by like level 30, and by level 70 or so both went down another stage of chance (10, 7.5) in order to be better.

You're not understanding how the system works if you think that.

Here's how it REALLY works:

+Damage mods Multiply all damage dealt by the weapon. This is multiplicative.

+Multishot mods add additional bullets. This is multiplicative.

+Physical Damage mods increase their respective physical types by the percentage This is additive.

+Elemental Damage mods add a percentage of the gun's BASE damage as elemental damage. This is additive.

The problem isn't simply the percentages on physical are lower, and the problem is not that elemental is multiplicative with physical mods (re: it's not). It's that you can't give a gun piercing if it didn't already have piercing. The physical mods are scaling to a smaller number (as well as straight up do not work on pure elemental weapons), while the elemental ones get full scaling.

 

 

EDIT NOTE: added a few things for clarity.

 

 

 

EDIT TWO: Also, the majority of weapons you couldn't build crit on usually took more fire rate style amplifiers- as in instead of increasing the D you'd decrease the S (both in DPS). Or you'd add Puncture for aoe, and other non-direct damage increases.

Because once again, rainbow itself was highly ineffective.

Edited November 25, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[TwiceDead]

Bear with me, it's early in the morning and I haven't slept, so I am quite slow. 

 

You aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Also, don't tell me Rainbow Crit builds weren't viable. There was no such thing as Rainbow Crit. Because you couldn't physcially do them. You didn't have the mod space.

So, I shouldn't tell you they weren't viable, but there was no such thing as rainbow crit. Do you mean I shouldn't tell you they ARE viable? Because they don't exist? Or am I misunderstanding again? 

 

You aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Also, don't tell me Rainbow Crit builds weren't viable. There was no such thing as Rainbow Crit. Because you couldn't physcially do them. You didn't have the mod space. 8 slots:

1) +Damage (Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike)
2) +Multishot (Split Chamber, Hell's Chamber, Barrel Diffusion)
3) +AP (Piercing Hit, Flechette, No Return)
4) +Cold (Cryo Rounds, Chilling Grasp, Deep Freeze)
5) +Crit Chance (Point Strike, Blundarbus, Pistol Gambit)
6) +Crit Damage (Vital Sense, Ravage, Target Cracker)
7) Combo Mod. Usually Hammer Shot on rifles (though some corrupted mods deseated it), Accelerated Blast for shotties, and Lethal Torrent for pistols.

 Have I misunderstood gravely or isn't a rainbow crit build simply to slap on all the damage multipliers?

 

Pre-update 11
On my Lanka I wen't Serration, Multishot, Cold, Fire, Electric, Point Strike, Vital Shot and Hammershot. 

Granted I didn't add No Return, because Lanka dealt Serrated Blade damage which ignored armor. Thinking about that now maybe it would've been better to add that rather than Hammershot.

So this still this doesn't qualify for rainbow? 

 

You're not understanding how the system works if you think that.

Here's how it REALLY works:
+Damage mods Multiply all damage dealt by the weapon. This is multiplicative.

+Multishot mods add additional bullets. This is multiplicative.
+Physical Damage mods increase their respective physical types by the percentage This is additive.
+Elemental Damage mods add a percentage of the gun's BASE damage as elemental damage. This is additive.

This I already knew. Don't jump to conclusions that I am entirely ignorant on the topic, 400 hours should've gotten me something out of this game afterall. Thanks for a reminder though, in case I'd ever forget. 

 

 

The problem isn't simply the percentages on physical are lower, and the problem is not that elemental is multiplicative with physical mods (re: it's not). It's that you can't give a gun piercing if it didn't already have piercing. The physical mods are scaling to a smaller number (as well as straight up do not work on pure elemental weapons), while the elemental ones get full scaling.

 

Then could you change elemental mods to scale only by the number of the highest value on the IPS? Rather than the total damage? 

[Eirshy]

The thing is your build is massively sub-optimal compared to mine in Damage 1.0 (Serration, Split, Piercing, Cryo, Point, Vital, Hammer, Speed). There are only two things that resisted AP, the gun barrel of Moas and light infested. The Lanka already dealt x3 to light infested, and simply not sucking at aiming fixed the Moa's. Against Heavy Grineer past level 77 (EDIT NOTE: I forgot to apply the Heavy Gunner's LA of 7), you were dealing at best an extra 27% per elemental mod; Maxed Storm and Hellfire nets 54%, maxed Piercing Hit nets 60% with less mod points and mod space. Against Ancients you were even worse off, dealing only 6.3% extra for Storm and 12.6% extra for Hellfire- while Piercing Hit was still netting 60% extra.

 

I still have my damage spreadsheet.... lemme give you a comparison.

Here's the Spreadsheet

First is vs lv77 Heavy Gunners, second is vs lv70 Ancient Healers and Ancient Disruptors (lv75 Toxics).

 

EDIT NOTE: I did not do a Chrom Lanka in these pictures (as in full CoAPElFi) with the replaced Hammer Shot. The spreadsheet itself has that done; the DPB was as follows

vs 238 armor (lv77 Heavy Gunner): 1986.5

vs 1336 armor (lv70 Healer/Disruptor): 1480.7

 

In both cases it is notably lower; however, pre-normalization it will be higher than either other build approximately 27.5% of the time (single or double, no crits) but will lose horrendously the other 72.5% of the time (as the end result of the normalization shows).

 

I never said it was not viable. I did however say that nobody used them. Why? Because they were sub-optimal and required a lot more mod points to *be* suboptimal (though if you polarized smartly you could do it with 5 forma still). Anyone good at math could run the numbers and tell you: That build is suboptimal.

 

And that's strictly from a DPB perspective. Couple the lack of Speed Trigger on your Lanka with that reduced DPB and you're looking at swarms wrecking you in addition to heavy units taking two shots sooner with your build.

 

The only thing your build performed better on was things with low armor- most of which didn't have the health to tank the normalized Serrated Blade damage the Lanka had by itself. Maybe Phroid had the health, but it likely wouldn't matter if you sonar'd on him. What with the fact that people were oneshotting him with Primed Chamber with a Snidal, and an unmodded Lanka deals a little more than 2x the damage of a Fire+AP Primed Snidal to the poor dog.

 

If their goal was to make something that was already sub-optimal worse, they fail at balancing forever.

 

 

 

You already knew all of that?

 

Now the new system is mostly suffering from the pains of elemental mods scaling better than physical mods. That's the primary reason why everyone's embracing elemental damage so much- because the physical mods suck with their current implementation.

 

There, this I agree with. But that's not going to make rainbow builds any less valid even if you buff these physical mods, considering the elemental damage types seem to scale depending on all the IPS stats, so even if you buff the physical damage mods to grant 90% rather than 30%, you'll simply be giving your rainbow build more fuel. 

 

The problem isn't simply the percentages on physical are lower, and the problem is not that elemental is multiplicative with physical mods (re: it's not). It's that you can't give a gun piercing if it didn't already have piercing. The physical mods are scaling to a smaller number (as well as straight up do not work on pure elemental weapons), while the elemental ones get full scaling.

 

No, I'm pretty sure you didn't know all of that, since you stated something completely different. I actually was thinking you went back and edited your posts to make yourself seem smarter and that I was merely misunderstanding, but you didn't, and I apologize for thinking you were That Guy. Kudos for not being That Guy.

 

 

 

 

That would mean pure elemental weapons can't scale to elemental mods at all, and would not make physical mods good.

This seems to be where you're not getting what's going on:

Physical Damage Mods as-is suck.

You want someone else explaining it?

 

They scale based on the physical type the gun already deals rather than the gun's base damage.

This means that if your gun has:

10 Impact

10 Piercing

100 Slashing

 

Even with +100% Physical Type Mods (x2), the best you will do is

20 Impact

20 Piercing

200 Slashing

 

So if you want to use this gun against Grineer, where EVERYTHING is armored, too bad. You aren't getting ANY piercing damage onto it. What's the solution? Corrosive (Toxic + Electric). Which will get full base damage. As in 180% (two 90% mods together) of the total BASE damage.

So if we add that on top of our three +100% Physical Type Mods....

20 Impact

20 Piercing

200 Slashing

216 Corrosive

 

Now this gun is viable against Grineer. Say you want it to also be better against Corpus (or Shield Osprey in general). Since you've taxed your gain of Impact damage, you need to add Cold or Magnetic for anti-shield. Magnetic requires an electric mod, which Corrosive took, so plain Cold is the best you can do.

20 Impact

20 Piercing

200 Slashing

216 Corrosive

108 Cold

 

 

Hypothetical versions....

 

If things worked the way you stated in the quote I did of you it would be:

20 Impact

20 Piercing

200 Slashing

432 Corrosive

216 Cold

As elements would scale to modified physical scores.

 

If things worked the way you apparently want it would be

20 Impact

20 Piercing

200 Slashing

180 Corrosive

As you would get only one element AND you would only get the highest BASE physical score.

 

If things worked the way I want them to, it would be

130 Impact

130 Piercing

220 Slashing

216 Corrosive

108 Cold

As physical mods would be scaling to the 120 base damage rather than their individual damage types.

 

 

So, what's the advantage of my way?

If you want anti-armor, you can literally just slap a Piercing mod on and call it good enough.

If you want anti-shield, you can literally just slap an Impact mod on and call it good enough.

If you want anti-flesh, you can literally just slap a Slashing mod on and call it good enough.

 

Instead, right now, you have to pick out elements that give you these coverages. Piercing/Magnetic/Fire does it. Corrosive/Impact/Fire and Corrosive/Cold/Slashing does it as well. Elements are your only options if you want diverse coverage on your gun- because currently you cannot use Physical to give you a full spread.

 

 

You're seeing people using Elements too much, and wanting to take away Elements. What you should be doing BEFORE you scream NERF!! is ask yourself WHY they're using elements so much.

 

The problem is that using Physical is not viable unless the gun already caters to that type (and then it's simply sub-optimal).

 

If you made the physical % on par with the elemental %, the only real difference is how many and which mods you use to get there.

A Two-Element Element would get there at 180% Base Damage (plus innate). Electric + Toxic (Corrosive) is in this class as well as the Anti-Armor class

A One-Element  Type would get there at 90% Base Damage (plus innate). Cold or Impact is in this class as well as the Anti-Shield class

A Double-Element Class would get there at 180% (plus innate). Cold AND Impact is in this class as Anti-Shield.

A Triple-Element Class would get there at 270% (plus innate). Corrosive AND Piercing is in this class as Anti-Armor.

 

Physical mods would serve a purpose, as they'd graduate to the same level as the "true" elements in terms of effect. You'd no longer HAVE to devote two slots for Corrosive to a gun with no innate Piercing, because you could just GIVE IT PIERCING.

Edited November 25, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[MECT_HET]

Pre-update 11

On my Lanka I wen't Serration, Multishot, Cold, Fire, Electric, Point Strike, Vital Shot and Hammershot. 

Granted I didn't add No Return, because Lanka dealt Serrated Blade damage which ignored armor. Thinking about that now maybe it would've been better to add that rather than Hammershot.

So this still this doesn't qualify for rainbow? 

 

Now replace these useless elems with a heavy caliber and bane of something and compare again. Your "crit build" just lack of damage and totally suck at the high levels because of armor mitigation back to the old damage1 system.

 

Actual physic boosters such as sawtooth ot piercing hit just increasing selected damage but don't affect any base damage unlike serration/heavy caliber does.

 

let's take soma: phys 10 which is 1-5-4 ips

add here ice and you'll get 10 phys and 9 ice = 19 total

add here sawtooth clip and you'll get 11.2 phys (1-5-5.2 ips) and the same 9 ice = 20.2 total

or replace here sawtooth with fire and you'll get 10 phys and 18 blast = 28 total

 

So all this physics crap is useless. We've got actually no options but using elementals. And yes, providing your suggestion shall be added - what's the weapon setup are you going to pick raiding t3 solo?

[ThePresident777]

Limit the nerfs to some other game.

No, I don't want to switch weapons spaztically while fighting off a horde. I don't want to agonize over loadouts before every location. I want versatile weapons. I don't want everything to be a niche. That is not what spices up game play. What spices up gameplay is fun game modes, ai, things that react, not a bunch of numbers and theory crafting.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Mastikator2]

Now replace these useless elems with a heavy caliber and bane of something and compare again. Your "crit build" just lack of damage and totally suck at the high levels because of armor mitigation back to the old damage1 system.

 

Actual physic boosters such as sawtooth ot piercing hit just increasing selected damage but don't affect any base damage unlike serration/heavy caliber does.

 

let's take soma: phys 10 which is 1-5-4 ips

add here ice and you'll get 10 phys and 9 ice = 19 total

add here sawtooth clip and you'll get 11.2 phys (1-5-5.2 ips) and the same 9 ice = 20.2 total

or replace here sawtooth with fire and you'll get 10 phys and 18 blast = 28 total

 

So all this physics crap is useless. We've got actually no options but using elementals. And yes, providing your suggestion shall be added - what's the weapon setup are you going to pick raiding t3 solo?

So, nerf elemental and buff physical to an equal footing?

[Notso]

Limit the nerfs to some other game.

No, I don't want to switch weapons spaztically while fighting off a horde. I don't want to agonize over loadouts before every location. I want versatile weapons. I don't want everything to be a niche. That is not what spices up game play. What spices up gameplay is fun game modes, ai, things that react, not a bunch of numbers and theory crafting.

 

[MECT_HET]

So, nerf elemental and buff physical to an equal footing?

I didn't say so.

 

I'd suggest to do this:

1. buff physicals to be on par with elemenals = 90% limit should be good.

 

old: sawtooth clip + 30% slash

new: sawtooth clip + 90% slash etc

 

2. And make physicals counted into the base physical damage - something where elementals will apply for.

 

old: 

soma: phys 10 which is 1-5-4 ips

add here ice and you'll get 10 phys and 9 ice = 19 total

add here sawtooth clip (30%) and you'll get 11.2 phys (1-5-5.2 ips)

 

new:

soma: phys 10 which is 1-5-4 ips

add here ice and you'll get 10 phys and 9 ice = 19 total

add here sawtooth clip (90% slash) and no return (90%pierce) and you'll get 17 phys (1-9-7 ips)

 

and ice will be 17*0.9 = 15 or 32 total

 

To make them cooperate rather than compete.

Edited November 25, 2013 by MECT_HET

[ThePresident777]

The utility mods need buff now and they did before damage 2.0. If you want variety, buff the utility mods so that they compete with damage mods.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ThePresident777

[TwiceDead]

Ho-wow, did I make a mess. 

The thing is your build is massively sub-optimal compared to mine in Damage 1.0 (Serration, Split, Piercing, Cryo, Point, Vital, Hammer, Speed). There are only two things that resisted AP, the gun barrel of Moas and light infested. The Lanka already dealt x3 to light infested, and simply not sucking at aiming fixed the Moa's. Against Heavy Grineer past level 77 (EDIT NOTE: I forgot to apply the Heavy Gunner's LA of 7), you were dealing at best an extra 27% per elemental mod; Maxed Storm and Hellfire nets 54%, maxed Piercing Hit nets 60% with less mod points and mod space. Against Ancients you were even worse off, dealing only 6.3% extra for Storm and 12.6% extra for Hellfire- while Piercing Hit was still netting 60% extra.

Yeah, I figured out it wasn't very good after a while. So I stopped using it. But that was not really what I was asking, I was asking if it qualified for a rainbow-crit. 
On the other hand I said earlier that epic rainbow-crit builds were plenty viable, I now retract that statement as I have been proven wrong. 

 

You already knew all of that?

 

No, I'm pretty sure you didn't know all of that, since you stated something completely different. I actually was thinking you went back and edited your posts to make yourself seem smarter and that I was merely misunderstanding, but you didn't, and I apologize for thinking you were That Guy. Kudos for not being That Guy.

Oh god you're right I did write that...

 

I meant to say physical mods scale depending on ONE of the IPS stats, depending on which mod you're using. So if you're slapping on a physical mod with a low initial number on the gun, it won't do much. I am sorry. I also retract saying that adding a physical mod will be giving your rainbow more fuel, I was wrong. 

 

Reminder to self, don't post on the forums after work and no night of sleep without coffee.. 

It might've seemed like I didn't know all that from the way I was typing things, but I assure you despite my stupid way of explaining nothing whatsoever, I knew that already. 

 

You're welcome. No I am the one misunderstanding and explaining things in a bad way, results of early-in-the-morning-not-thinking forum discussing. I'd mostly edit a post if I can word things to make more sense. In this thread I am not even going to bother. 

 

 

Hypothetical versions....

 

If things worked the way I want them to, it would be

130 Impact

130 Piercing

220 Slashing

216 Corrosive

108 Cold

As physical mods would be scaling to the 120 base damage rather than their individual damage types.

 

Just ran all the math myself. Not seeing where you got the 120 base damage from though... Must be some math I am missing. Those IPS stats look like they are 120 * 4, 480 damage in total rather than 120, so I can only assume you slapped on Serration and Split Chamber. Does this mean elemental damage mods shouldn't scale from an added serration and split chamber? 

 

You're seeing people using Elements too much, and wanting to take away Elements. What you should be doing BEFORE you scream NERF!! is ask yourself WHY they're using elements so much.

 

The problem is that using Physical is not viable unless the gun already caters to that type (and then it's simply sub-optimal).

 

If you made the physical % on par with the elemental %, the only real difference is how many and which mods you use to get there.

A Two-Element Element would get there at 180% Base Damage (plus innate). Electric + Toxic (Corrosive) is in this class as well as the Anti-Armor class

A One-Element  Type would get there at 90% Base Damage (plus innate). Cold or Impact is in this class as well as the Anti-Shield class

A Double-Element Class would get there at 180% (plus innate). Cold AND Impact is in this class as Anti-Shield.

A Triple-Element Class would get there at 270% (plus innate). Corrosive AND Piercing is in this class as Anti-Armor.

 

Physical mods would serve a purpose, as they'd graduate to the same level as the "true" elements in terms of effect. You'd no longer HAVE to devote two slots for Corrosive to a gun with no innate Piercing, because you could just GIVE IT PIERCING.

Wait... 

So you can just slap on a piercing mod even if the gun wasn't made for it? 
Are you saying if a gun has:

10 Impact
5 Piercing

50 Slash

 

We can just slap on a piercing mod and make it good for it? Even when it's initial stats aren't meant for it? 

Or are you saying we should equalize the IPS stats across the board depending on total damage in order to make that doable? And that physical mods should scale according to total base damage rather than the initial stat it's trying to increase? 

21.6 Impact

21.6 Piercing

21.6 Slash

 

So rather than scaling from 21.6 Piercing damage it should scale from 65 damage? Adding a 0.3(0.9?) damage boost to it? So... It would look like this?

21.6 Impact

80.1(+58.5p) (65 * 0.9 used in this case) Piercing

21.6 Slash

 

Or in the case where the IPS stats are not equalized:

 

10 Impact
63.5 (+58.5 from 5) Piercing (again using 65 * 0.9 value)

50 Slash

 

So it should work the same way as elemental mods? 

If this is a bother to you, you can ignore this, but you'd be doing me a favor by replying as I am just trying to understand your explanation by now. 

 

 

Limit the nerfs to some other game.

No, I don't want to switch weapons spaztically while fighting off a horde. I don't want to agonize over loadouts before every location. I want versatile weapons. I don't want everything to be a niche. That is not what spices up game play. What spices up gameplay is fun game modes, ai, things that react, not a bunch of numbers and theory crafting.

 

I come from a different place as I like having different weapons with different purposes, rather than just have one gun and not needing to grab another one because it will just work as the first gun I had anyway. Could be my Fallout geek speaking nonsense though. 

 

Otherwise I agree entirely on your post, except having versatile weapons. Of course some weapons should be versatile, but I'd prefer to have some specialization weapons anyway. Personal opinion though. 

Edited November 25, 2013 by TwiceDead

[PrismBlack]

Personally I think limiting your choice to one element is a bad idea why? It limits your choices your ability to customize your setup they way you want it. The cookie-cutter rainbow system is not a problem it is other players helping those that want the best setup they can to see the best possible combo for a weapon, it does not have to be used so why remove it? Really I like having choices and the ability to mess with weapons damage types If they made it be that you could only have one element type I would just play the worst fps that I have - Dust 514 it may be bad gameplay due to its TTK but at least I would be grinding isk for my character in EvE

[Llyssa]

Pretty sure the point of dmg2.0 was that a rainbow weapon, formerly, was a god weapon. You could freeze your opponent to slow them, set them on fire to distract them, and stun them by electrifying them, every time, on every hit. There was NO reason to do anything but dump all of the elemental mods on something and watch it be instantly nerfed into oblivion by the first attack.

 

Now, you can get any and all damage types you want, but you're not instantly turning every opponent into a pillar of slow-moving uselessness. You have to actually pick what bonus effects you'll get, and it's literally impossible to get them all on a single weapon.

 

This isn't about "oh gosh, WE MUST FORCE THEM TO SWAP WEAPONS MORE OFTEN!", which, honestly, is a really stupid goal. It was about people whining "The enemies are teh suck, and only get armor to protect them!" and being more or less correct. Enemies can't be turned into meaningless stumps on-demand now, so they're actually more-challenging, and in return, the level of armor-scaling-to-infinity is massively reduced.

 

They've accomplished all of that.There is no godweapon anymore. A rainbow build is still totally viable, but it no longer has the lots wife effect. You actually have to deal with the enemy as an enemy now, rather than mere target practice.

[Eirshy]

Erm, I realized I may have been using terminology some of you don't know.

DPB = Damage Per Bullet

DPS = Damage Per Second

 

Normalization = a method for converting chance occurances into an accurate average

 

Other terms:

EHW = Extreme High Wave

AoE = Area of Effect

 

Saturation = Weapon role, also known as "Support Weapons", focuses on outputting a large volume of rounds in the general direction of (a) target(s) with the goal of keeping heads down more than actually killing anyone/thing. The Gorgon and Supra are the most direct examples of Saturation weapons.

 

Spike = Damage Philosophy, often called Burst as well. Focuses most on high alpha (up-front damage). Multi-Hit subtype (more accurately called Burst) means it accomplishes its spike damage by quickly striking multiple times, followed by a cooldown. Hard Hit is the other subtype, which applies its spike damage via one really hard hit.

 

CC = Crowd Control, or secondary, non-damaging effects that hinder a target. Comes in three flavors, and a fourth cross-strength topping

Soft, which merely makes an action less effective. EX: Slows

Medium, which removes one action but leaves others open. EX: Roots/Snares

Hard, which removes all choice of action from a target. EX: Stuns, Taunts

Interrupt, which cancels any current actions (ex: silences (medium CC) that stop spells in warm-up or channel phase)

 

 

 

Yes, I know, I should write a paper on this theory stuff and get it published or something.

Some day I will.

 

Now replace these useless elems with a heavy caliber and bane of something and compare again. Your "crit build" just lack of damage and totally suck at the high levels because of armor mitigation back to the old damage1 system.

 

Actual physic boosters such as sawtooth ot piercing hit just increasing selected damage but don't affect any base damage unlike serration/heavy caliber does.

 

 

Just a note, Bane mods are actually quite bad; the content that would regularly benefit from them is Tier 3 Void keys (specifically, Defense), yet the only content that they're impractical on is Tier 3 Void keys. EHW Defense can benefit from it, too, however EHW usually ties more to strategy than raw damage output. As in if your strategy is solid, you can basically go until you get bored.

 

Heavy Cal was introduced before my time, only reason I didn't mention it.

However, even in the old system Heavy Cal replacing Hammer Shot actually *lowers* your damage output, and not running Speed Trigger on the Lanka is dangerous due to your target acquisition  time suffering.

 

Unless Heavy Cal was the difference between a one- and a two-shot, Speed Trigger was massively better simply because of the target switching rate increase.

 

Ho-wow, did I make a mess. 

Yeah, I figured out it wasn't very good after a while. So I stopped using it. But that was not really what I was asking, I was asking if it qualified for a rainbow-crit. 
On the other hand I said earlier that epic rainbow-crit builds were plenty viable, I now retract that statement as I have been proven wrong. 

 

Oh god you're right I did write that...

 

I meant to say physical mods scale depending on ONE of the IPS stats, depending on which mod you're using. So if you're slapping on a physical mod with a low initial number on the gun, it won't do much. I am sorry. I also retract saying that adding a physical mod will be giving your rainbow more fuel, I was wrong. 

 

Reminder to self, don't post on the forums after work and no night of sleep without coffee.. 

It might've seemed like I didn't know all that from the way I was typing things, but I assure you despite my stupid way of explaining nothing whatsoever, I knew that already. 

 

You're welcome. No I am the one misunderstanding and explaining things in a bad way, results of early-in-the-morning-not-thinking forum discussing. I'd mostly edit a post if I can word things to make more sense. In this thread I am not even going to bother. 

 

 

Just ran all the math myself. Not seeing where you got the 120 base damage from though... Must be some math I am missing. Those IPS stats look like they are 120 * 4, 480 damage in total rather than 120, so I can only assume you slapped on Serration and Split Chamber. Does this mean elemental damage mods shouldn't scale from an added serration and split chamber? 

 

Wait... 

So you can just slap on a piercing mod even if the gun wasn't made for it? 
Are you saying if a gun has:

10 Impact
5 Piercing

50 Slash

 

We can just slap on a piercing mod and make it good for it? Even when it's initial stats aren't meant for it? 

Or are you saying we should equalize the IPS stats across the board depending on total damage in order to make that doable? And that physical mods should scale according to total base damage rather than the initial stat it's trying to increase? 

21.6 Impact

21.6 Piercing

21.6 Slash

 

So rather than scaling from 21.6 Piercing damage it should scale from 65 damage? Adding a 0.3(0.9?) damage boost to it? So... It would look like this?

21.6 Impact

80.1(+58.5p) (65 * 0.9 used in this case) Piercing

21.6 Slash

 

Or in the case where the IPS stats are not equalized:

 

10 Impact
63.5 (+58.5 from 5) Piercing (again using 65 * 0.9 value)

50 Slash

 

So it should work the same way as elemental mods? 

If this is a bother to you, you can ignore this, but you'd be doing me a favor by replying as I am just trying to understand your explanation by now. 

 

 

 

 

I come from a different place as I like having different weapons with different purposes, rather than just have one gun and not needing to grab another one because it will just work as the first gun I had anyway. Could be my Fallout geek speaking nonsense though. 

 

Otherwise I agree entirely on your post, except having versatile weapons. Of course some weapons should be versatile, but I'd prefer to have some specialization weapons anyway. Personal opinion though.

 

Haha it's k bro, I've done that before myself.

 

Rainbow by definition is all elements. Crit by definition maximizes crit chance and damage.

Yours was missing Armor Piercing, which was still an element no matter what other people say.

Reason why I say it was physically impossible- there is only one free slot after you go full crit and take two elements.

 

You could try mixing it, ala dropping Hammer Shot like you had suggested, but that actually massively lowers your damage output (as the normalized DPB showed).

 

 

 

The base damage I used was:

10 Impact

10 Pierce

100 Slashing

 

Summing those together you have 120 base damage.

 

However your following example is essencially correct.

The idea of what I'd want to do is to treat the physical damage mods as the elemental mods they should be. Having them scale to base damage means the raw percent increase in damage would be the same between a +90% Piercing and a +90% Electric mod regardless of which weapon you put it on. This allows a pure elemental access to physical types, and allows a physical weapon able to deal a damage type it doesn't already cater to (ex: the Vectis has high piercing but low slashing and impact, this system would allow it to have meaningful Impact or Slashing by adding the relevant mod).

 

 

Weapon roles should always be a thing, however our definitions differ.

 

I have a long-range sniper weapon (Lanka) as my primary, either a mid-range saturation weapon (Gremlins) or a mid-range burst-spike weapon (Vipers), and either a generl-purpose melee (Orthos Prime) or a utility melee (Dual Zorens).

 

You seem to be defining it as Anti-X as a weapon's role, where as I define it based on where it is on each of the three damage philosophy specturms. This is partly because these damage philosophies are universal between all games- and even accurate in real life (though Spike damage tends to be massively more effective irl than in games).

Spike vs DPS

Short vs Long

Single vs AoE

 

Pretty sure the point of dmg2.0 was that a rainbow weapon, formerly, was a god weapon. You could freeze your opponent to slow them, set them on fire to distract them, and stun them by electrifying them, every time, on every hit. There was NO reason to do anything but dump all of the elemental mods on something and watch it be instantly nerfed into oblivion by the first attack.

 

Now, you can get any and all damage types you want, but you're not instantly turning every opponent into a pillar of slow-moving uselessness. You have to actually pick what bonus effects you'll get, and it's literally impossible to get them all on a single weapon.

 

This isn't about "oh gosh, WE MUST FORCE THEM TO SWAP WEAPONS MORE OFTEN!", which, honestly, is a really stupid goal. It was about people whining "The enemies are teh suck, and only get armor to protect them!" and being more or less correct. Enemies can't be turned into meaningless stumps on-demand now, so they're actually more-challenging, and in return, the level of armor-scaling-to-infinity is massively reduced.

 

They've accomplished all of that.There is no godweapon anymore. A rainbow build is still totally viable, but it no longer has the lots wife effect. You actually have to deal with the enemy as an enemy now, rather than mere target practice.

 

No, Rainbow was bad. Very, very bad in Damage 1.0.

I suggest you read my posts in this thread. I explain why rainbow was bad quite thoroughly.

 

There was every reason to not use Rainbow- namely because rainbow was trounced in damage output if the gun had non-terrible crit stats. And even if it did have terrible crit stats, increasing ammo economy and fire rate would generally increase your DPS by more than using rainbow when against content that actually needed high damage output.

 

Also, only Cold activated on every hit. Fire would do the animation but not always CC. Same with Electric. In addition, Fire and Electric's CC effects were not permenant, as well as could not proc multiple times on the same target within a short time window.

Edited November 25, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[TwiceDead]

Erm, I realized I may have been using terminology some of you don't know.

DPB = Damage Per Bullet

DPS = Damage Per Second

 

Normalization = a method for converting chance occurances into an accurate average

 

Other terms:

EHW = Extreme High Wave

AoE = Area of Effect

 

Saturation = Weapon role, also known as "Support Weapons", focuses on outputting a large volume of rounds in the general direction of (a) target(s) with the goal of keeping heads down more than actually killing anyone/thing. The Gorgon and Supra are the most direct examples of Saturation weapons.

 

Spike = Damage Philosophy, often called Burst as well. Focuses most on high alpha (up-front damage). Multi-Hit subtype (more accurately called Burst) means it accomplishes its spike damage by quickly striking multiple times, followed by a cooldown. Hard Hit is the other subtype, which applies its spike damage via one really hard hit.

 

CC = Crowd Control, or secondary, non-damaging effects that hinder a target. Comes in three flavors, and a fourth cross-strength topping

Soft, which merely makes an action less effective. EX: Slows

Medium, which removes one action but leaves others open. EX: Roots/Snares

Hard, which removes all choice of action from a target. EX: Stuns, Taunts

Interrupt, which cancels any current actions (ex: silences (medium CC) that stop spells in warm-up or channel phase)

 

 

 

Yes, I know, I should write a paper on this theory stuff and get it published or something.

Some day I will.

 

 

 

Just a note, Bane mods are actually quite bad; the content that would regularly benefit from them is Tier 3 Void keys (specifically, Defense), yet the only content that they're impractical on is Tier 3 Void keys. EHW Defense can benefit from it, too, however EHW usually ties more to strategy than raw damage output. As in if your strategy is solid, you can basically go until you get bored.

 

Heavy Cal was introduced before my time, only reason I didn't mention it.

However, even in the old system Heavy Cal replacing Hammer Shot actually *lowers* your damage output, and not running Speed Trigger on the Lanka is dangerous due to your target acquisition  time suffering.

 

Unless Heavy Cal was the difference between a one- and a two-shot, Speed Trigger was massively better simply because of the target switching rate increase.

 

 

Haha it's k bro, I've done that before myself.

 

Rainbow by definition is all elements. Crit by definition maximizes crit chance and damage.

Yours was missing Armor Piercing, which was still an element no matter what other people say.

Reason why I say it was physically impossible- there is only one free slot after you go full crit and take two elements.

 

You could try mixing it, ala dropping Hammer Shot like you had suggested, but that actually massively lowers your damage output (as the normalized DPB showed).

 

 

 

The base damage I used was:

10 Impact

10 Pierce

100 Slashing

 

Summing those together you have 120 base damage.

 

However your following example is essencially correct.

The idea of what I'd want to do is to treat the physical damage mods as the elemental mods they should be. Having them scale to base damage means the raw percent increase in damage would be the same between a +90% Piercing and a +90% Electric mod regardless of which weapon you put it on. This allows a pure elemental access to physical types, and allows a physical weapon able to deal a damage type it doesn't already cater to (ex: the Vectis has high piercing but low slashing and impact, this system would allow it to have meaningful Impact or Slashing by adding the relevant mod).

 

 

Weapon roles should always be a thing, however our definitions differ.

 

I have a long-range sniper weapon (Lanka) as my primary, either a mid-range saturation weapon (Gremlins) or a mid-range burst-spike weapon (Vipers), and either a generl-purpose melee (Orthos Prime) or a utility melee (Dual Zorens).

 

You seem to be defining it as Anti-X as a weapon's role, where as I define it based on where it is on each of the three damage philosophy specturms. This is partly because these damage philosophies are universal between all games- and even accurate in real life (though Spike damage tends to be massively more effective irl than in games).

Spike vs DPS

Short vs Long

Single vs AoE

 

 

No, Rainbow was bad. Very, very bad in Damage 1.0.

I suggest you read my posts in this thread. I explain why rainbow was bad quite thoroughly.

 

There was every reason to not use Rainbow- namely because rainbow was trounced in damage output if the gun had non-terrible crit stats. And even if it did have terrible crit stats, increasing ammo economy and fire rate would generally increase your DPS by more than using rainbow when against content that actually needed high damage output.

 

Also, only Cold activated on every hit. Fire would do the animation but not always CC. Same with Electric. In addition, Fire and Electric's CC effects were not permenant, as well as could not proc multiple times on the same target within a short time window.

 

I understand now, and I must say that I have been swayed. That is a better way to make physical mods decent and on par with elemental mods, compared to simply limiting the amount of elemental mods allowed.

 

Thank you for elaborating. :) 

[Ketec]

So in short.. .your idea is to make Void unplayable.

We cannot swap weapons ingame - but we  have to face ALL THREE types of enemies in a single game.

[TwiceDead]

So in short.. .your idea is to make Void unplayable.

We cannot swap weapons ingame - but we  have to face ALL THREE types of enemies in a single game.

Did you read the Disclaimer? I was under the effects of Stupify at the time and didn't even think before posting this topic, hence why I recommend people(mostly myself) to use their brains before they post. I just left the old post there for display because I am not embarrassed about making honest mistakes. Looking at my own stupidity in this thread now, I can only laugh and bring it along as a fond reminder. 

 

How's it going by the way? Seem to recall having a round with you earlier!

Edited November 26, 2013 by TwiceDead

[HateFueled]

EDIT: 

DISCLAIMER

This was typed early in the morning after a day of work on a sunday and no sleep, so the following post is only a half-assed thought, as I didn't really think much about it and just typed. Remember to use your brains people, or else you get the following mess: 

 

Or do something that obliterates the cookie-cutter rainbow builds. 

Anyway my suggestion is to simply limit the amount of elemental types a weapon can have to 1 type per weapon. 

Which means your weapon can only have one of these + your weapons base damage. 

Fire

Cold

Lightning

Toxic

Gas

Blast 

Radiation

Viral

Corrosion

Magnetic

 

Which means if your weapons base damage already is an Electric elemental type weapon, you get Electric + Elemental type. 

 

i don't agree. stacking damage is cool and should be left as is.

[MECT_HET]

Just a note, Bane mods are actually quite bad; the content that would regularly benefit from them is Tier 3 Void keys (specifically, Defense), yet the only content that they're impractical on is Tier 3 Void keys. EHW Defense can benefit from it, too, however EHW usually ties more to strategy than raw damage output. As in if your strategy is solid, you can basically go until you get bored.

 

Heavy Cal was introduced before my time, only reason I didn't mention it.

However, even in the old system Heavy Cal replacing Hammer Shot actually *lowers* your damage output, and not running Speed Trigger on the Lanka is dangerous due to your target acquisition  time suffering.

 

Unless Heavy Cal was the difference between a one- and a two-shot, Speed Trigger was massively better simply because of the target switching rate increase.

Erm...what?

Bane mod is good enough to do some planetary missions, so I was never offering someone to use it in the Void. Because, y'know, there is NO "baned" factions in there. 

 

And what did you tell me about removing or replacing hammer shot? I have never suggested that, this is part of lanka's power. Seems like you misunderstood. Heavy caliber should replace one of elementals, nothing more nothing less. 

 

P.S.: refused to use speed trigger/shred right after 3rd forma installed. Pretty useless and cripple damage output. 

[Feauce]

There is no good reason to ever think this is a good idea. Don't like rainbow builds? Fine. Guess what? Don't USE one!! Why should the rest of us be forced to conform to your restrictions just because you don't like it?