Nova Is Op

[ThePresident777]

I have already refuted this argument. Stop appealing to the extremes and applying selective logic to a broad topic. It just doesn't work. 

 

That's nice but I paid a good amount of money for this game precisely because of all the power spam, and melee spam, and bullet spam, and parkour, and fast fluid movement it has had, not because I wanted it all nerfed into a ping pong game, like some clunky crap bioware would make.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

A drop can hit an entire defense room with the right build, and M-Prime doesn't fire off instantly either. :|

 

The reason her other powers don't get used is not that M-Prime is the best, it's because her other powers, outside of wormhole, are difficult to use and/or lackluster.

"Oh hey, those infested are getting close. I could use rhino charge/shuriken/venom/shock and injure five of them... Or I could stomp/bladestorm/miasma/overload the whole room."

 

All this logic here is bad because it applies to most frames. The cost benefit analysis is such that firing off an ult is almost always the best option.

 

Other Ult's don't hit as big a zone AND do as much damage AND debuff anything that survives it. And did you seriously compare freaking BLADESTORM to Molecular Prime? No. That doesn't work at all. The other abilities lose their damage much earlier than MP, and they don't have the massive advantage of making enemies move slowly AND take more damage to ride on after that. It's not even close.

 

 

also, the MP vs AD thing:

MP- Base range of 25 m, explosions of 15 m

AD- blast range of 15 m.

 

No, AD CANNOT hit as big an area. You're just plain wrong.

 

(edit- ok, some ult's reach 25 meters, but they don't deal 800 damage per enemy. That's a big difference.)

Edited December 1, 2013 by XanaSkullpulper

[Cwierz]

That's nice but I paid a good amount of money for this game precisely because of all the power spam, and melee spam, and bullet spam, and parkour, and fast fluid movement it has had, not because I wanted it all nerfed into a ping pong game, like some clunky crap bioware would make.

I don't think you understand selective logic.

 

so what if, and i mean if, the molecular prime does everything that it currently does, minus one primed enemy setting off another primed enemy, would that be somewhat acceptable?

I have no idea if that would work or not.

[lautalocos]

That's nice but I paid a good amount of money for this game precisely because of all the power spam, and melee spam, and bullet spam, and parkour, and fast fluid movement it has had, not because I wanted it all nerfed into a ping pong game, like some clunky crap bioware would make.

then i can say that i paid money precisely to change settings in the options menu, but all i got was actually a third person shooter.

 

does that mean that DE should now make the game an options menu simulator 2013? because thats what im getting from you.

[Kyphe]

I try not to use M-prime on low to mid level missions unless things get really bad, I stick to the good ol Anti drop, it is so much fun and not as spammy for the team,

 

A 200 base dam guided missile that sucks up all shots giving your whole team a shield and then does 400% extra of whatever it sucked up, I did a defence and was wipeing huge mobs of grineer out with it.

 

launch at mob! empty grakata clip into it! watch everybody die!

 

ofc it is situational, its not an easy kill all like M-prime, and it's slow, your team can kill everyone before the ball exploads.

 

I just find it fair use.

 

Playing non AOE frames with people playing nova or volt or ember on mid to low levels and you are forced to rush like hell to get in front to kill anything at all.

 

Unless like me, they find wipping room after room out with a single button push boring as hell and would rather chop S#&$ up with a maxed out gram lol

[Empiren]

1. She can nuke mobs better than every other frame, no exceptions. She has the highest damage potential in the game, end of story. That is something that causes a lot of problems regarding point two.

 

2. Because she has the highest damage ability wise in the game, it just isn't balanced to give her the ability to slow, half damage, amp the teams damage, and do it all for 25 energy. Not to mention she has a whole nother' kit with instant teleportation for the entire team, a spam power that stuns enemys who might cc her, and a infinitely scaling power that was buffed by making it blast damage. (I am fairly sure on the last part but I could be wrong). Now for your specialist argument to be valid, there would have to be the slots for an infinite amount of frames. 

 

Lets say we are doing some void defense, it is fairly obvious that we are gonna choose frost first. Now lets say instead of nova we take the best damage mitigation, the best damage amp, and the best CC. So now we take trinity, banshee, and nyx. Why do we need to slot three other warframes to fill the role one warframe can fill with one power and an energy orb.

 

3. In order to balance her, once again I propose that we have M Prime actually be affected by mods other than range, and we add a treatment similar to nyx's chaos.  The ability itself might not be as good as chaos or bastille pre-nerfs, but it is still leagues better than every other nuking ability, and contains weakened versions of the "specialist" abilities to boot. It completely wrecks all content that has been balanced by DE (up towards the 40 area for most enemies and mods).

 

1. Actually, she can't.

She can nuke LOWER level mobs better than any frame(well, only slightly better, but someone has to be on top), late-game since it requires a kill and the damage falls off its not really much of "nuke" but a "buff".

 

2. Ok you are wrong on all four here.

A) Null star stuns people? cool, no one really uses it and nova's in general don't carry 4 skills. Not to mention it's not like someone is going to sit there casting it over and over to keep up the stun for any reason.

B) Antimatter drop isn't "infinitely scaling" per-se, it's more of a "scales with damage done. To my knowledge, nyx's absorb does too.

C) Vauban has a team-movement too!, yet no one should complain about wormhole in general. It's not breaking anything and is really only used for fun.

D) You mean 25 energy when specced into efficiency. Which is fine, except every 4(ult) has a side effect anyway.

 

3. Go play endgame, then come back. All your problems are from the starting area, and to be quite honest, petty.

I can wipe rooms with rhino/volt/ember/excal/mag/saryn/frost. Please come back when the thing you are complaining about involves the endgame, because as someone who's been there, nova is not overpowered.

 

Outside of antimatter drop, her abilities are nothing more than buffs later. Even then A-Drop is so clunky its useful for very specific scenarios.

 

It is merely the ILLUSION of her being "overpowered" that gets all the new players in here. Since her ability is detonated and you can see it, you think it's overpowered. However, most other nukes instantly kill their targets, therefore you think its "op" when a person does it on a scale you can see. 

------------

 

Also you don't even talk about the frail parts of nova, obvious bias.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Empiren

[lautalocos]

1. Actually, she can't.

She can nuke LOWER level mobs better than any frame(well, only slightly better, but someone has to be on top), late-game since it requires a kill and the damage falls off its not really much of "nuke" but a "buff".

 

2. Ok you are wrong on all four here.

A) Null star stuns people? cool, no one really uses it and nova's in general don't carry 4 skills. Not to mention it's not like someone is going to sit there casting it over and over to keep up the stun for any reason.

B) Antimatter drop isn't "infinitely scaling" per-se, it's more of a "scales with damage done. To my knowledge, nyx's absorb does too.

C) Vauban has a team-movement too!, yet no one should complain about wormhole in general. It's not breaking anything and is really only used for fun.

D) You mean 25 energy when specced into efficiency. Which is fine, except every 4(ult) has a side effect anyway.

 

3. Go play endgame, then come back. All your problems are from the starting area, and to be quite honest, petty.

I can wipe rooms with rhino/volt/ember/excal/mag/saryn/frost. Please come back when the thing you are complaining about involves the endgame, because as someone who's been there, nova is not overpowered.

 

Outside of antimatter drop, her abilities are nothing more than buffs later. Even then A-Drop is so clunky its useful for very specific scenarios.

------------

 

Also you don't even talk about the frail parts of nova, obvious bias.

you say you usually play endgame. then you know that in endgame having 1000 versus 250 shields dones´t make a difference, because they are stripped in less than a second.

 

at least, i guess that is the endgame of which you speak off, because thats when M prime explosions start to fall off.

 

that is considering that if you prime 10 enemies with 2000 health each, you kill one (easily because of the double damage), then another one (with less health because of the explosion), and then everyone is dead from the 3200 damage.

 

i imagine you are one of those players that go into defense wave 1000, right?

 

wormhole i have no problems with. it´s fun, it doesn´t hurt anybody. but don´t compare it to bounce. bounce is useless in almost every case.

 

 

antimatter drop only has just a lot of range on the explosion, and the damage mupltiplier is just too much considering that that damage is dealth to each enemy in range.

 

 

null star. i agree with you on null star, but saying that nova don´t carry all of her 4 skills isn´an excuse.

[__Kanade__]

I've been seeing alot more Nova's getting incapacitated left and right ever since Damage 2.0 came out, they must be the same players who did nothing but spam M.Prime thinking they were awesome or whatever term they liked to use, now all I see are panic M.Primes cause they know they're going to die, and many of those panic M.Prime don't even work since they spent too much time gathering the energy and trying to use it in a huge mob.

 

Now Nova is more of a liability with damage 2.0.

Edited December 1, 2013 by __Kanade__

[Cwierz]

1. Actually, she can't.

She can nuke LOWER level mobs better than any frame(well, only slightly better, but someone has to be on top), late-game since it requires a kill and the damage falls off its not really much of "nuke" but a "buff".

 

2. Ok you are wrong on all four here.

A) Null star stuns people? cool, no one really uses it and nova's in general don't carry 4 skills. Not to mention it's not like someone is going to sit there casting it over and over to keep up the stun for any reason.

B) Antimatter drop isn't "infinitely scaling" per-se, it's more of a "scales with damage done. To my knowledge, nyx's absorb does too.

C) Vauban has a team-movement too!, yet no one should complain about wormhole in general. It's not breaking anything and is really only used for fun.

D) You mean 25 energy when specced into efficiency. Which is fine, except every 4(ult) has a side effect anyway.

 

3. Go play endgame, then come back. All your problems are from the starting area, and to be quite honest, petty.

I can wipe rooms with rhino/volt/ember/excal/mag/saryn/frost. Please come back when the thing you are complaining about involves the endgame, because as someone who's been there, nova is not overpowered.

 

Outside of antimatter drop, her abilities are nothing more than buffs later. Even then A-Drop is so clunky its useful for very specific scenarios.

 

It is merely the ILLUSION of her being "overpowered" that gets all the new players in here. Since her ability is detonated and you can see it, you think it's overpowered. However, most other nukes instantly kill their targets, therefore you think its "op" when a person does it on a scale you can see. 

------------

 

Also you don't even talk about the frail parts of nova, obvious bias.

Your "endgame" is mathematically unable to be balanced. Because of the exponential scaling that this game posses it is impossible for set values to remain balanced past a certain point. This is a core concept that is not realized by many players.

Also, if you get the impression that I am a newbie compare the ranks in our profiles for a second and get back to me.

 

You cannot dismiss the claim that it is the highest damaging 4 in the game, just because damage abilities fall off in unbalanced areas of the game 99% of the community cannot hope to play.

 

1.) The math behind this is that at low levels, the nuking ability is the same as it will outright kill, there is a small middle window of about 5 levels for varying mobs that your standard nuking abilities will be better because the specialized elements will kill it and M Prime will not, and past that M Prime regains its status as the best nuker. 

 

After a certain point spamming your 4 isn't as time efficient as just laying down the extra bullets to kill one more enemy, or however many you need to. In the highest leveled game-play that isn't endless (t3 defense) M Prime becomes the only viable nuking ability, and it does completely fine. 

 

M Prime is the best nuking ability. Period.

 

2.) 

a.) Just because people don't use it doesn't mean it is not there, that kind of logic doesn't always work

b.) Both are infinetly scaling, because they dish out however much is dealt. An infinite amount can be placed into both.

c.) Obviously you have not seen the "skilled" nova players who can finish a mission in less than a minute or two with M Prime and Wormhole

d.) Every other ult has either a minor stun, or a invulnerability set of frames for the caster. They cannot half all incoming damage, reduce movement speed, and double your damage. The 25 energy build has no downsides either.

 

3.) Once again with the "endgame" argument. It is quite clear that this game is not balanced past a point around the upper to mid 40's. Just because damage scales off does not mean you can just say that the ability to completely destroy all current content is meaningless, not to mention the fact that if M Prime didn't even have damage, it would still be a very good ability. You cannot use endgame as an argument, it just doesn't work.

 

There is no reason for one ability to step into other frames niches like that, while providing the best damage in the game. This isn't limited to "my petty problems" as you state. It does more damage than every other ability in a all encompasing scope, while also providing enough utility to be good enough to quantify as an ult in the first place even without the damage. There is something obviously wrong with that picture, and if you can't see it I honestly just don't know what to say.

 

This isn't some type of illusion, I looked at the math behind it, and I looked at the secondary abilities to it. You cannot argue with math, and game mechanics, but it appears you think you can.

 

Frail part? Bias? are you freaking kidding me, ffs. I am now highly doubting your capacity to hold a rational debate. I owned a Nova but recently sold her to make some space for my valkyr. Her frailty is irrelevant, because at low levels she will never get killed because she can kill first, and at high levels anything that isn't with a blessing is gonna die anyways. 

 

All throughout your post were logical inconsistencies, points that have already been disputed, and claims based on baseless arguments. Your points lacked consistency, and were made off of a incorrect presumption/belief. 

 

M Primes damage scaling is also the best scaling of damage that isn't an infinite scaling ability. Because each death adds to the damage total you are getting at least a steeper slope on your line that represents damage dealt. It can still kill enemies to a very high point, which is significantly higher than others. This is undeniable

 

M Prime scales better, does more damage, contains 3 aspects of utility in fairly large proportions, and is the cheapest spammable ult in the game. Yet, because other abilities have some better crowd control in only one of the three areas this ability has it is suddenly balanced. Flawless logic

[ThePresident777]

then i can say that i paid money precisely to change settings in the options menu, but all i got was actually a third person shooter.

 

does that mean that DE should now make the game an options menu simulator 2013? because thats what im getting from you.

 

When I saw Warframe trailers and other representations, I saw a fast fluid movement game with bullet/melee/power spam.  I liked it so I bought it.  Which Warframe sales pitches did you see advertising an options menu?

[ThePresident777]

I don't think you understand selective logic.

 

Is that the logic of selecting a game for what it is and wanting it to stay true to that?

[Ragingkitty]

arguably, ember is matched with nova, whatever nova cant see, ember will kill with her ultimate. but if nova gets the chance to see a target in sight then she will take it. what nova needs is an animation to her skill. to give the other people to get some kills before she wipes the room. but one thing, only ember is great at rushing, since she doesn't have to stop to use her ult, and I mean literally she doesn't have to stop, just slide her down the hallway while she casts her ult. ember ultimate rusher, nova ultimate pooper scooper :o but one thing that makes me laugh about nova.

 

if she cant get her ult off in time she is as good as on the ground, while ember runs in circles and laughs while burning the world, since she can be mobile with her ult. going off and not pausing, like all the other frames.

 

but not to make this about ember, nova does need her ult nerfed bad. but as soon as it gets nerfed, everyone will cry and say how much nova sucks. honestly they should have made a whole new ultimate all together. or they should make it that if she does set off the move, but whoever kills the target first, that causes her ult to go off gets all of those kills.

[Cwierz]

Is that the logic of selecting a game for what it is and wanting it to stay true to that?

no, selective logic would be something like this-

There is a man who is allergic to peanuts, so they remove peanuts from the families diet

The brother is getting angry because he thinks they will have to remove things like eggs or shellfish from their diets.

 

See how that just doesn't work?

It is the same thing with nova, comparatively she oversteps many frames in a margin that has been deemed to big, but other frames don't. You seem to be under the impression that people like us just want to nerf the frame with the biggest numbers, when it just isn't the case.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Cwierz

[lautalocos]

When I saw Warframe trailers and other representations, I saw a fast fluid movement game with bullet/melee/power spam.  I liked it so I bought it.  Which Warframe sales pitches did you see advertising an options menu?

im saying that what you see in a video doesn´t mean anything. i just remembered a guy on youtube checking some things on the options menu, but that dones´t mean the game is about that.

 

if you are talking about the game trailers, then i have no idea where you saw power spam, because i never saw a trailer with nova spammin M prime.

 

 

also, what you mean with bullet spam? how do you even spam bullets? it´s a gun, it´s just fast firerate.

 

and finally, my original post was saying that its not right to think that just because you expended money, you have a say on how the game should be.

[Anunymau5]

OY FELLAS! If OP wont stand down then just ignore him. We've basically all universally agreed that Nova is NOT OP. So let's just stop arguing!

[Cwierz]

OY FELLAS! If OP wont stand down then just ignore him. We've basically all universally agreed that Nova is NOT OP. So let's just stop arguing!

Except we have obviously not. Once again with burying the problem with complaints.

 

See what I am talking about?

[ThePresident777]

no, selective logic would be something like this-

There is a man who is allergic to peanuts, so they remove peanuts from the families diet

The brother is getting angry because he thinks they will have to remove things like eggs or shellfish from their diets.

 

See how that just doesn't work?

It is the same thing with nova, comparatively she oversteps many frames in a margin that has been deemed to big, but other frames don't. You seem to be under the impression that people like us just want to nerf the frame with the biggest numbers, when it just isn't the case.

 

That's funny.  I thought selective logic was:

1)  Ignoring the many people who love Nova, especially before the stealth nerf..

2)  Ignoring that she was on the most popular purchase list for a long time, longer than Vauban, longer than Nekros who was never on the best sellers list.  Think about that, Nekros, the slow warframe with puny soul punch for an explosive power, was never on the best sellers list.  People don't spend money on lame Warframes.

3)  Ignoring other options like buffing other Warframes.

4)  Ignoring that people love to see a massive pile of mooks explode and immediately be replaced by the next wave.

[Cwierz]

That's funny.  I thought selective logic was:

1)  Ignoring the many people who love Nova, especially before the stealth nerf..

2)  Ignoring that she was on the most popular purchase list for a long time, longer than Vauban, longer than Nekros who was never on the best sellers list.  Think about that, Nekros, the slow warframe with puny soul punch for an explosive power, was never on the best sellers list.  People don't spend money on lame Warframes.

3)  Ignoring other options like buffing other Warframes.

4)  Ignoring that people love to see a massive pile of mooks explode and immediately be replaced by the next wave.

Are you a troll? Seriously.

1.) Irrelevant 

2.) That just illustrates why she is OP

3.) That doesn't work, I have outlined why before

4.) irrelevant

[IfritKajiTora]

Nova get easy kills with her Ulti so TOP players in kills have no sense.

HAHA I'M 1 TOP player on the warframe List!!! :DDDD
Do you play Nova?
Yeah she is awesome
Hahahahahahaha dont make me laught XD You are brag yourself because you have the most kills of all warframe players?! I can told you one thing, Nova is blowing everythings up so she get multi kills the most damage and the most kills on every mission, so you can get your first place in warframe list to the Grave.

Edited December 3, 2013 by IfritKajiTora

[Xana_Skullsunder]

OY FELLAS! If OP wont stand down then just ignore him. We've basically all universally agreed that Nova is NOT OP. So let's just stop arguing!

 

No u.

 

Seriously, if you're not even going to be polite anymore, I'm not either. You've done absolutely zilch to convince us you're correct, we have no reason to shut up. You fail at arguing forever.

[Anunymau5]

No u.

 

Seriously, if you're not even going to be polite anymore, I'm not either. You've done absolutely zilch to convince us you're correct, we have no reason to shut up. You fail at arguing forever.

Except all my arguments are variants of Nova is a glass cannon. Therefore she's balanced. Also I didn't actually say anything even remotely rude. 

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Except all my arguments are variants of Nova is a glass cannon. Therefore she's balanced. Also I didn't actually say anything even remotely rude. 

 

"The people disagreeing are wrong because herp derp community says so, so we should ignore them."

^This. This is rudeness. And this is what you just said. Acting like the point isn't even worth discussing because the other side is so obviously wrong.

[Anunymau5]

"The people disagreeing are wrong because herp derp community says so, so we should ignore them."

^This. This is rudeness. And this is what you just said. Acting like the point isn't even worth discussing because the other side is so obviously wrong.

No I'm acting like the point isn't worth being discussed any longer simply because it has been discussed for 9 pages on this thread alone. There are countless other threads dedicated to this and it's clear that its not going anywhere. The Devs already said that they like Nova the way she is. 

[SnipingZero]

I've posted a longer version of this response to TwiceDead in another thread:

 

Volt is on the same scale when it comes to Corpus.   Ember is on the same scale when it comes to Infested.

I guarantee you I can clear rooms that would explode to a Molecular Prime using a Volt, Ember, Mag, Rhino, or Banshee nearly or equally as effectively.  Once MP stops being able to room clear due to monster level, all those other frames would fall off in amazingness too.

 It's true. You can do that with Ember or Volt, except for the fact that those 2 frames have a particular enemy to rely on for the effectiveness of their ulti AND that they are way more exposed to damage when they activate it. Try to stay with a volt without any cover floating in the air during a storm of dera bullets hoping your power will kill every corpus in time or to throw yourself into a horde of infested with your Ember's ulti activated when it can hit just 3 enemies at a time. 

 

Those are all excuses and if everyone of you keeps saying that Mprime is not OP it's just denying what's most obvious. But it could be just as simple as it sounds and as it looks: just reduce it's base range and it's done. The craziest thing in that ulti is that it can cover almost a whole defense map and oneshot a lvl 50-60(by the new dmg 2.0 scaling) wave in the blink of an eye. That RUINS any gaming experience in this game. It's undenyable.

Edited December 2, 2013 by SnipingZero

[Cwierz]

No I'm acting like the point isn't worth being discussed any longer simply because it has been discussed for 9 pages on this thread alone. There are countless other threads dedicated to this and it's clear that its not going anywhere. The Devs already said that they like Nova the way she is. 

evidence/citation required