Hildryn - Feedback and Proposed Updates

[MarakViri]

So, I'm sure the title gave some indication, likely a minor one, as to the contents of this particular post, but this is a post about the Helicopter Parent herself, Hildryn.

In 2023, Hildryn and Hildryn Prime had a combined usage rate of just 1.74%, with the concentration of users being at the peak of the Mastery System (MR30+), according to the official statistics. Now, I am most certainly not a Hildryn main (my account usage statistics for her are 1.7% for Hildryn Prime, and 1.2% for Hildryn), but she is my number one pick for the Circuit, prior to which her usage was significantly lower. So, the majority of my suggestions are geared in regards to increasing her actual viability in lower MR levels, as well as Circuit runs.

As Hildryn utilises her shields in place of the regular energy pool, it becomes doubly important for her to keep a level of shield presence at all times. Which can be hard to do, given that she has no innate sense of damage reduction beyond the regular 50% that applies to the Tenno Shield of all Warframes. This ends up creating a system at where you can find yourself doing nothing but casting Pillage for potentially lengthy periods of times while under constant enemy fire, leaving you unable to utilise your other abilities at all. This becomes especially burdensome when playing with higher enemy density and levels.

This is exacerbated by the effect that Ability Duration has on Pillage as, modding any higher than 175% results in Pillage taking longer than 3.5 seconds to return to you, during which time you are vulnerable. Of course, you can get around this by utilising the Operator or [Rolling Guard], but even those have shortcomings, and having a frame as unique as Hildryn falling into the same band-aid survival doesn't sit well with me.

Haven is a very versatile ability, providing an increase to ally Shield Capacity and Shield Regeneration as well as increasing their Shield Gate to match Hildryn, while simultaneously damaging enemies, can be very useful, though it's greatest use is actually when paired with Pillage and it's augment, [Blazing Pillage]. Of course, as this is a channelled ability, it gets cancelled every time Hildryn's shields get depleted, and Hildryn loses shields for every enemy and ally this ability affects.

The fact that the channelled  nature of this ability is actually not the problem with it's upkeep bothers me greatly. I (as someone not particularly skilled in my own opinion) can keep Haven active without pressure for regular content, without needing to turn it off, due to Pillage. The two abilities synergise tremendously well, which is probably obvious given the fact that there is a dual-ability augment (another thing that bothers me, but I'll get into that later).

The main issue in Hildryn's kit is actually her ultimate, Aegis Storm. This is another channelled ability, scaling its drain by the number of affected enemies, with no real cap, making it a very quick way to lose your shields (and therefore both your energy and survivability). Furthermore, while it is active, your mobility becomes absolutely awful, you cannot use any weapons other then Hildryn's exalted weapon, and (most importantly), can't use Pillage. And, in return, you can ... hover? Oh, and any enemy affected by the ability (which is all enemies within a 15 meter sphere of Hildryn at base) becomes affected by a non-status variation of the Lifted Status, will periodically drop Energy Orbs, and take small amounts of Radiation Damage.

Now, Hildryn could pick those Energy Orbs up in order to keep her ability active, but roughly 98% of builds (no source here, just a guess) have this replaced through the Helminth for an ability that doesn't neuter her for basically all content. This is a sad state of affairs, as there are maybe two times where I can see this ability being at least somewhat useful, and even in those cases, the rest of her kit would do the job, arguably better.

Then there's the Balefire and [Balefire Charger] from her first ability, which is capable of some serious damage ... but it is effectively a [Stug] with upgraded damage. Not even joking, the stats are basically identical. 5% Critical Chance and 1.5x Critical Multiplier are shared. The [Stug] is listed as having a 0% Status Chance in game, but the explosion has a 10% Status Chance, just like the [Balefire Charger]. The [Stug] has a 2.8 meter explosion radius, whereas the [Balefire Charger] has a 3.0 meter radius (which scales with Ability Range so ... good job DE). It's honestly laughable how low this weapons numbers are, but it has a base damage of 500 Electric Damage to make up for it (especially since the [Stug] has a whopping 4 damage), and it's labelled as an acceptable Exalted. You are almost forced to run with Arcane Avenger if you want to use this weapon. Oh, and the damage of this weapon doubles if it's fully charged ... which makes the Charge Rate and Fire Rate very painful unless you mod to correct them.

And, the only real synergy it has with the rest of this kit, without its augment, is that it is usable while Aegis Storm is active, which makes it unique because nothing else can be used. Of course, Hildryn is shown as having two of these while her ultimate is active, so you at least get some kind of improvement to fire rate. Except you don't, because that's purely cosmetic. Yet another thing that ruins her ultimate.

Then there are her augments, of which she currently has two. The first is [Balefire Surge], which makes fully charged shots restore 250 Shields. This activates even if Aegis Storm is active, making it almost necessary for builds using these two in tandem. Additionally, fully charged shots will also instantly destroy Nullifier Shields, and return 3 times as much shield (750) for doing so. Her second augment, [Blazing Pillage], causes enemies affected by Haven to take 200 Heat Damage with a Heat Proc when struck by Pillage, and restore an additional 50 shields. This makes this a very potent source of DPS, all things considered, and allows the ability to be useful against the infested (as well as enemies that have no armor or shields, such as enemies already fully stripped).

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, here are my suggestions.

Passive

Spoiler

So, Hildryn's current passive is a higher-than normal Shield Gate cap of 3.5 seconds, in comparison to the regular 2.5 seconds, and is shared to teammates affected by Haven. Of course, Protea provides 5 seconds with her first ability, most builds that utilise shield gating run Augur mods and/or Brief Respite and/or Catalyzing Shields, so that particular feature is rarely actually useful.

My suggestion for this comes in two parts. The first suggestion is particularly powerful, and might make her the most survivable unit in the game, whereas the second is more balanced.  Ideally, both of these would be implemented.

The first suggestion if Segmented Shielding. Hildryn's Shield is segmented into two segments, each possessing its own Shield Gate. The first segment possesses a Shield Gate of up to 0.5 seconds, whereas the second provides up to 3.0 seconds. The first triggers when Hildryn loses 75% of her shields (and her over shields), whereas the second triggers when Hildryn loses her shields completely.

Functionally, the first segment will function similarly to Overguard, preventing excess damage from bleeding into her secondary shield pool. This provides Hildryn a small window of time in which she can utilise a small portion of her shields for abilities, even after taking severe damage. This also allows her to keep her channelled abilities active for longer periods of time if she is played correctly.

The second suggestion is Armored Shields, wherein Hildryn's Armor value provides additional damage reduction to her Shields. At base, this would provide her shields a total of 75.6% damage reduction instead of 50%. While this would mostly be effective at the lower levels still, it may provide some benefit to damage over time effects such as Electricity and Heat status effects.

Of course, Hildryn would still retain her Overshield immunity to Toxin damage and Status. Additionally, her own abilities will negate this shield gate of her first segment if the usage of an ability (or drain) causes it to fall below the threshold. Only damage from an enemy will cause this to trigger.

First Ability

Spoiler

Balefire is actually fairly easy to "fix" in my opinion. Increase the Critical Multiplier somewhat (maybe up to 2.3 or so), and increase the Status Chance (maybe up to 20%. but 15% is also fine).

Now, other upgrades to the ability are for its synergy with Aegis Storm. Therefore, specifically while Aegis Storm is active, the Balefire Charge has its Fire Rate and/or Charge Rate doubled. Alternatively, double its Multi-Shot. Very simple.

Second Ability

Spoiler

Pillage is already Hildryn's best ability, so I'm not actually going to touch on it. Functionally, it remains identical.

Synergistically however, here is my proposed change. When Aegis Storm is active, Pillage can still be cast. However, it will no longer regenerate shields (except with the augment), but will have its Armor and Shield stripping force doubled. This would mean that a 200% Strength Build would allow for full stripping while Aegis Storm is active.

Additionally, I would suggest an augment that can be used without another of Hildryn's abilities, as this is a Subsumable, making the augment completely useless on other frames.

Third Ability

Spoiler

Haven is also a very good ability. Its only real downfall currently is that is doesn't persist when your shields are destroyed, making it difficult to recast when under fire, without having either low duration for Pillage return, [Rolling Guard] for extended invincibility, or highly increased Casting Speed (which usually needs to be paired with one of the other two options).

Perhaps an augment that allows this to function alone without being used primarily as a [Blazing Pillage] DPS enabler.

Fourth Ability

Spoiler

As I've mentioned, Aegis Storm is the clear replacement ability on Hildryn at the moment and, while that will likely still be the case, I am taking a crack at it.

Firstly, when activated, Hildryn will automatically equip a Balefire Charger (even if the ability has been removed). Activating Balefire (or having it active already) will instead increase the Fire Rate and/or Charge Rate and/or Multi-Shot of the attack.

Secondly, Pillage can be cast (as discussed), but will be twice as effective at removing armor and shields, but will no longer return shields at base. [Blazing Pillage] will still return shields, however.

Thirdly, Hildryn's mobility will be increased the lower she is to the ground, allowing her to move at approximately 150% her usual sprint speed when at her lowest altitude, falling to 25% at her maximum altitude.

Fourthly, the energy drain caused by this ability is capped at 10-15 enemies, to prevent a swarm from instantly depleting all of your shields.

Edit (Update):

Fifthly, the removal of shield drain on "roll". This is unnecessary now, and would be even more so with the proposed changes. Unless rolling had an effect on enemies (drawing in enemies or picking up items from a large radius), this is just an Annoyance.

Sixth, provide an additional benefit to picking up Energy Orbs. Sure, they regen her shields, but not by a lot (250 drains in a few seconds), so maybe amplify this while in Aegis Storm, or have it trigger a Knockdown or a chance at creating a Vortex (dragging enemies in from a large radius, with a cooldown).

Anyway, that's the post. Let me know what you think, especially the Hildryn mains.

Edited March 8 by MarakViri
Updates

[Okaazkul]

As a Hildryn main, I really like your proposed changes for her, all except one.

Il y a 22 heures, MarakViri a dit :

The first suggestion if Segmented Shielding. Hildryn's Shield is segmented into two segments, each possessing its own Shield Gate. The first segment possesses a Shield Gate of up to 0.5 seconds, whereas the second provides up to 3.0 seconds. The first triggers when Hildryn loses 75% of her shields (and her over shields), whereas the second triggers when Hildryn loses her shields completely.

Functionally, the first segment will function similarly to Overguard, preventing excess damage from bleeding into her secondary shield pool. This provides Hildryn a small window of time in which she can utilise a small portion of her shields for abilities, even after taking severe damage. This also allows her to keep her channelled abilities active for longer periods of time if she is played correctly.

I find this passive to be too complex for no real benefit. She is already the frame with the biggest shield in the game and it will probably still be the case for the next 10 years of content. Having 2 gating is good, don't get me wrong, but how will it interact with ability and mod that change the Shield gate, like Protea's 1 and Catalysed Shield ? And does Haven give the same property to allies ?

 

Il y a 22 heures, MarakViri a dit :

The second suggestion is Armored Shields, wherein Hildryn's Armor value provides additional damage reduction to her Shields. At base, this would provide her shields a total of 75.6% damage reduction instead of 50%. While this would mostly be effective at the lower levels still, it may provide some benefit to damage over time effects such as Electricity and Heat status effects.

Il y a 22 heures, MarakViri a dit :

As I've mentioned, Aegis Storm is the clear replacement ability on Hildryn at the moment and, while that will likely still be the case, I am taking a crack at it.

Firstly, when activated, Hildryn will automatically equip a Balefire Charger (even if the ability has been removed). Activating Balefire (or having it active already) will instead increase the Fire Rate and/or Charge Rate and/or Multi-Shot of the attack.

Secondly, Pillage can be cast (as discussed), but will be twice as effective at removing armor and shields, but will no longer return shields at base. [Blazing Pillage] will still return shields, however.

Thirdly, Hildryn's mobility will be increased the lower she is to the ground, allowing her to move at approximately 150% her usual sprint speed when at her lowest altitude, falling to 25% at her maximum altitude.

Fourthly, the energy drain caused by this ability is capped at 10-15 enemies, to prevent a swarm from instantly depleting all of your shields.

I really like those ideas, having Shield affected by Armor will make sense of the big base armor she have. Having Pillage doubling in its stipping potential at the cost at losing her shield regen is a better idea that what we curretly have. But all those idea have a big problem...

They will change (close to) nothing.

Those change are good, don't get me wrong, but Aegis Storm is a flawed ability. Why it generate energy orb when Hildryn doesn't need them heavily compare to all other frame minus Lavos ? Why just CC-ing enemies with a big shield drain when you have effectively the same thing with Haven + Blazing Pillage ? Why dodging cost shield when Aegis Storm is active ? Why losing all my mobility option (Double jump, Bullet jump...) to instead have a slow jetpack ? Why the Area of Effect is affected by my height ?

And even if those change take effect, what ability will be replace ? I think it will still be Aegis Storm. Maybe some will switch to replace Balefire Charger (like some people already does) but I don't really think it will be a majority. Hildryn is one of the rare frame that have more than one optimal option, other than just Nourish-Roar, from the Helminth, like Elemental Ward to cause Electric proc all around you when using your abilities, Vorasious Metastasis if you want your teammate to have no energy problem, Rebuild Shield or Condemn if you want another solution to regenerate shield, the new Eclipse will be a good solution to make your Shield even more tankier, etc.

But to be honest, I'm just one Hildryn main with my point of view. Maybe other Hildryn main have another opinion.

Edited March 7 by Okaazkul

[MarakViri]

2 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

I find this passive to be too complex for no real benefit. She is already the frame with the biggest shield in the game and it will probably still be the case for the next 10 years of content. Having 2 gating is good, don't get me wrong, but how will it interact with ability and mod that change the Shield gate, like Protea's 1 and Catalysed Shield ? And does Haven give the same property to allies ?

Ah. Yes, it is fairly complex, I suppose. And yes, Hildryn does have the largest Shield Pool in the game. Even without her own Overguard, she dwarfs Harrow with his doubled Overshield.

That said, those "impressive" shields disappear like smoke when exposed to even a single bullet at higher levels of endurance. The reason for the segmenting was to prevent Hildryn from losing the entirety of both her survivability and energy in a single instant, leaving you (well, me) floundering around for whatever length of time it happens to be, spamming Pillage just to regain enough shield to regain enough shields to lose them instantly and gain my full Shield Gate.

The intended interraction would be for Haven to provide the full Duration of her Shield Gate (0.5 + 3.0 = 3.5) to allies, which would function identically.

As to the interaction mechanics with Protea's Grenade Fan (Shield Satellite Configuration), my thought was to have it apply only to her secondary shield pool. Basically, the first Shield Pool would be more akin to Overguard, having the static 0.5 second shield gating, with the rest of her Shield Gate (which would be 4.5 seconds paired with Protea) applying to her secondary pool.

Catalyzing Shield would therefore be a 0.5 + 0.83 section if Hildryn had it equipped (but why tho). If an ally had it equipped, it would function identically to how it does now.

Haven would not give the segmentation to allies, though it could maybe provide a brief Shield Gating upon the loss of Overshields.

Heck, this could simply have Hildryn gain a 0.5 second Shield Gate upon losing her Overshields, and having excess dmaage not Bleed into her regular shields, for functionally the same effect. Basically Overguard as Shield.

2 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

I really like those ideas, having Shield affected by Armor will make sense of the big base armor she have. Having Pillage doubling in its stipping potential at the cost at losing her shield regen is a better idea that what we curretly have. But all those idea have a big problem...

They will change (close to) nothing.

Yep. Pretty much. Level 2000 Grineer Breath would still destroy your shields. Might pair well with [Health Conversion], or some Duviri Decrees, but yeah, your shields are still ultimately tissue paper.

And yes, Pillage working with Aegis Storm is better than its current state, but the main reason it's currently not working in tandem is due to the shield regeneration, so removing that for a new benefit seemed like a decent idea.

3 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

And even if those change take effect, what ability will be replace ? I think it will still be Aegis Storm. Maybe some will switch to replace Balefire Charger (like some people already does) but I don't really think it will be a majority. Hildryn is one of the rare frame that have more than one optimal option, other than just Nourish-Roar, from the Helminth, like Elemental Ward to cause Electric proc all around you when using your abilities, Vorasious Metastasis if you want your teammate to have no energy problem, Rebuild Shield or Condemn if you want another solution to regenerate shield, the new Eclipse will be a good solution to make your Shield even more tankier, etc.

Yeah, probably. But look at Wukong. I have builds on the God-Monkey with no Helminth at all, because his kit is so synergistically viable already, and each ability is also very useful to his kit. In fact, Defy is probably his least used ability for me, but I have builds where it is central to the functionality of the build.

Hildryn doesn't have that. If you remove Balefire, then Aegis Storm has no weapon to use, so you have a fully defunct ability (unless you want to hover above the field in Infested missions and nothing more, I guess).

The idea was to have this make the ability better, and allow it to function even in that particular case, so you could keep her Ultimate and not have it be useless without her Exalted.

And yes, she has a lot of good Helminth options. I've had some difficulty with Electric Elemental Ward not really applying after a few rounds of Circuit (damaging only one or two enemies), and I've not tried Nourish (as the Viral damage seems nice, but I try to maximise Helminth viability. Unless it affects her shield regen from Pillage, then Im not all too interested), Roar is a very good option, as is Voracious Metastasis in DPS and Team Support respectively (although the refusal to trigger [Archon Intensify] on the latter has soured it for me personally), and Ive never found Rebuild Shields to be a better option, as I am either using Pillage or I don't have shields (and therefore can't use any abilities).

The upcoming Eclipse might be good, but I'll probably stick with my current setups for the most part.

I hope I've explained the thought process (in the earlier half of this response) and haven't bored you with the rambles kn the latter half.

I am curious however. When has Rebuild Shields been useful to you on Hildryn? I understand it's a full Shield restore, but I personally can't see any instance I would use it where I actually can use it (I tried once, before my brain got wrinkles, at using it after my shield broke and I couldn't use Pillage, lol).

[Okaazkul]

Il y a 3 heures, MarakViri a dit :

That said, those "impressive" shields disappear like smoke when exposed to even a single bullet at higher levels of endurance. The reason for the segmenting was to prevent Hildryn from losing the entirety of both her survivability and energy in a single instant, leaving you (well, me) floundering around for whatever length of time it happens to be, spamming Pillage just to regain enough shield to regain enough shields to lose them instantly and gain my full Shield Gate.

It only append to me in Duviri SP Circuit against lvl ~1000 enemies. I find that to be very respectable. Could it be better ? Yes, but there is no need because it's already strong enought for 99.9999% of the content the game have.

 

Il y a 3 heures, MarakViri a dit :

Heck, this could simply have Hildryn gain a 0.5 second Shield Gate upon losing her Overshields, and having excess dmaage not Bleed into her regular shields, for functionally the same effect. Basically Overguard as Shield.

Yeah, that could be simplier.

 

Il y a 3 heures, MarakViri a dit :

Yeah, probably. But look at Wukong. I have builds on the God-Monkey with no Helminth at all, because his kit is so synergistically viable already, and each ability is also very useful to his kit. In fact, Defy is probably his least used ability for me, but I have builds where it is central to the functionality of the build.

Hildryn doesn't have that. If you remove Balefire, then Aegis Storm has no weapon to use, so you have a fully defunct ability (unless you want to hover above the field in Infested missions and nothing more, I guess).

The idea was to have this make the ability better, and allow it to function even in that particular case, so you could keep her Ultimate and not have it be useless without her Exalted.

I totally agree, I would also like to use her entire base kit as well, but for doing that you need to scrap her current ult, because of the many flaws the ablity have, to make a new one instead of (trying to) correcting it. Or, if you still try to correct it, correct all the flaws and not just half of them.

 

Il y a 3 heures, MarakViri a dit :

When has Rebuild Shields been useful to you on Hildryn?

For me, never, but there was a short time after the arrival of the Helminth system when you could use this ability during Aegis Storm. An argument can be make when you are against Infested, but Condemn is better in this case imo.

Edited March 7 by Okaazkul

[Fred_Avant_2019]

There was a time where you could cast Condemn while under the effects of Aegis Storm. That did not make Aegis Storm relevant. But hey, at least they "fixed" it. Now you can't use helminth abilities while in Aegis Storm (or at least not condemn).

[MarakViri]

8 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

It only append to me in Duviri SP Circuit against lvl ~1000 enemies. I find that to be very respectable. Could it be better ? Yes, but there is no need because it's already strong enought for 99.9999% of the content the game have.

Yeah, the 950 mark or so is when it becomes frequent, though it can happen earlier on the assassination (around 700 I think, which is fine since it's a boss after all), but at 1100 or so, any fodder enemy decimates your shields.

But you're right, of course. Her shields are more than enough for 99.9999% of the game. But out of the the base tank frames (who tank with their base stats and not necessarily abilities), only pre-rework Inaros is worse in endurance. Nidus could be considered worse if you don't factor in his passive, I suppose, but he is also an ability tank.

I was just hoping that Hildryn could have some kind of unique survivability mechanic to allow her to survive endurance. Even if that was something as simple as "Overshields are treated as Overguard".

8 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

I totally agree, I would also like to use her entire base kit as well, but for doing that you need to scrap her current ult, because of the many flaws the ablity have, to make a new one instead of (trying to) correcting it. Or, if you still try to correct it, correct all the flaws and not just half of them.

Yeah, you might have a point there. I forgot about a large chunk of them on account of the fact that I haven't actually used Aegis Storm since ... when was Hildryn introduced? March 2019? Then I haven't used Aegis Storm since around June 2020.

But yes, it would need a comprehensive overhaul to fix its issues. The idea of the ability is fairly good, which is why I tried to fix it rather than replace it, but if replacing it has a better effect on the kit, then by all means.

The most inportant questions in that direction becomes "What does she need for her kit?" and "Does this feel like an ultimate ability?".

Without Aegis Storm, she has no real means of Crowd Control, Orb Generation (which isn't really needed too much), no innate answer to the Infested Faction (without augments, though the Balefire could be considered an answer I suppose).

She also has no form of damage amplification or damage resistance, both of which would be great for her kit. That makes Eclipse a great Helminth option (post rework), especially if it boosts the damage of Balefire, which I cant remember if it does (exalted weapons have some weird interractions). Roar is also good, as you mentioned, because it enhances [Blazing Pillage] as well as [Balefire Charger].

8 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

For me, never, but there was a short time after the arrival of the Helminth system when you could use this ability during Aegis Storm. An argument can be make when you are against Infested, but Condemn is better in this case imo.

Ahhh, yeah, the only Helminth I had on Hildryn until a few months ago (Duviri) was Voracious Metastasis, as it allowed me to provide energy for the squad, and paired well with the [Combat Discipline] + [Arcane Avenger] combination. Was really sad when I discovered that [Archon Intensify] wasnt triggered by the heal though, and now I have more selfish builds.

I also don't really take Hildryn up against Infested, but I do have a Condemn Hildryn (still instead of Aegis Storm) I'm gradually building. Sucks Toxin fumes at the moment, but it's getting there, since I'm designing it solely for Hildryn-boost Arbitrations, and therefore only need to worry about keeping Strength neutral to get a 100% Pillage (for the Swarm MOA's), and still get really good damage from [Blazing Pillage] and [Balefire Charger].

29 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

There was a time where you could cast Condemn while under the effects of Aegis Storm. That did not make Aegis Storm relevant. But hey, at least they "fixed" it. Now you can't use helminth abilities while in Aegis Storm (or at least not condemn).

Yeah, that sucks. That wouldn't have fixed anything really (you'd probably be subsuming over Pillage, and therefore not have [Blazing Pillage] for DPS when not in Aegis Storm), but would have been fun to play around with.

Edited March 8 by MarakViri
Spelling corrections

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 4 minutes, MarakViri a dit :

but would have been fun to play around with.

Yeah but not really because if you think about it, your movement in Aegis Storm is more restrictive than your basic ground movement. Using the dodge roll gives you a kinda bad dash that doesn't do anything but cost you some shields. Hildryn's flight is kind of useless, think of it as trying to fly a huge blimp at a low altitude against an entire army of anti aircraft canons. That's what using Aegis Storm feels like in steel path. Having crap movement there is just begging your enemy to shoot at you. Not only that but being locked to the slow balefire just makes it worse. Titania just accomplishes everything Hildryn's Aegis Storm attempts but way better in every possible way, that's why one ability is  basically unremovable when considering to use helminth, while the other is the designated subsume slot.

 

If Aegis Storm must be so underwhelming, then it has no right being an "ultimate" ability. Just like old Pulverize on prerework Grendel was.