MarakViri

I am aware. Not everyone uses just one build on a weapon though, but yes. Chances are there are no faction mods at all on most builds. I mean, [Primed Serration] doesn't exist, but even then, given the arcanes that also provide base damage, the edge would probably still go to Eclipse due to it being a multiplier. If you have Faction mods, you get one more multiplier than Roar can provide.

Considering the current discussion plays under the assumption that using [Total Eclipse] comes at the cost of a mod slot (and therefore assumes that you arent using [Piercing Roar], otherwise there would be no "mod loss" but instead a "range loss"), that's somewhat misleading, but alright then. With both of them at 30%, they will be equal except in DoT damage when running with no Faction Mod. When running a faction mod, Eclipse will result in more initial damage due to having an additional multiplier (and Roar will still have the edge on DoT due to the higher double dip value). With a 50% base Eclipse, thats only true at above 200% Strength, as far as they compare at a 1-to-1 ration, and equipped with Faction Mods. With a 75% base Eclipse, then it has the DoT advantage at even 500% Strength when paired with Faction mods (under the same solo condition). Trying to balance Roar and Eclipse is harder because [Total Eclipse] exists, allowing you to make it a multi-player buff (even though its both easier and worse than Roar in thia regard). That is the issue regarding balancing them that everyone seems to be disregarding. Or, alternatively, they simply don't care to do that, and want to balance the base helminth abilities in a vacuum that provides every advantage to Roar. And that's without factoring in the Faction Damage Multiplier it gives to abilities. It's somewhat akin to comparing Pillage and Terrify solely based on their ability to armor strip.

It doesn't. Faction Mods, however, do double dip on DoTs. Hence why there is no double dipping on the "No Faction Mod" calculations.

Again, welcome to the conversation? I have said this in almost every single post when you quote it, so I don't see why you keep mentioning it. And, as you say later in the post, people play differently,(you technically say "Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play", since you seem insistent on calling me out on paraphrasing. So, do I think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for [Total Eclipse] in order to give their team a 45% weapon buff? Maybe. Especially since Roar is far more prevalent, and you can have both buff effects simultaneously. There will be times that, at 45% (which is not the number I stuck with, as you might recall (assuming you actually read the entire post, but as you seem to disregard anything that would come close to having your respond with something other than "you're wrong", you naturally avoid mentioning it (even if you probably still would go with a "no you're wrong" anyway)). You know, this little bit here? But, of course, it's not your magic 90% of damage regarding the ability damage output of Saryn, but given that youi are arguing from the perspective of giving Roar every advantage, and Eclipse no advantage, I can't say I'm surprised. See, if you pointed only pointed out logical inconsistencies and errors, I might agree with you. However; You are in fact not. You quote me out of context. From a response of you claiming I do not use my brain. Not "you lack critical thinking" or something similar, but the straight disuse of my brain. What you are doing, to go along with your analogy, is seeing the spade and saying "You're a horrible pitchfork". It's amazing that you decide to single out a mis-quote, of all things (even when no indication of genuine quotation was implied) in order to shift your perspective into a place of intellectual superiority. I would say I'm surprised, but it certainly seems in character. Yes. But you gave no indication of diameter. I have been under the assumption that you were using the "official" stats, which have it calculated by radius (since you've constantly quoted "patch notes" and keep referring to the 30% Eclipse despite it's lack of relevance in our actual discussion at this point). Yes, it's not that much of a trade-off, because most people don't sacrifice their best mod when needing to "sacrifice" a mod slot. Yes, they are the backbone to a large amount of the power the player wields. Again, very disingenuous in making the assumption that people are going to select [Blind Rage] as the mod to replace, but you've been doing similar things the entire time. No, I am not thinking from an exclusively Solo-Player perspective. I am also approaching it from the public matchmaking perspective and the pre-built squad perspective. Roar gives better overall results, yes. When did I say it didn't do this? You keep trying to strawman me, and it's getting very repetitive to explain my position when you keep assigning new ones to fit your argument. Would I pick additional weapon damage at the cost of losing ability damage? Depends on the frame I am using and the content it will be used in. It also depends on how I have the weapons modded, I suppose. But again, my number is no longer 45%. You could up that comparison to 80% as a generic point (as that's where I said it is most likely balanced), but that would require you to, you know, argue with validity instead of absurdism. Not all frames have high damaging abilities. Some would benefit more overall by having a larger increase to weapon damage. And, since Roar is better on ability-damage viable frames, chances are a teammate will have that anyway, allowing you to have both effects. You can't bring up the team-damage comparison without factoring in the team. But, since you are comparing these two abilities on Ability-Damage frames, I'm really not surprised (even if most frames have the capability to run Ability DPS at this point). But there are still frames that get little benefit from it. And again, you're playing by the min-max perspective. Saryn would likely use Roar even if Eclipse had the full 200% weapon damage because her primary form of damage is abilities. As is Ash's. If your going to make arguments, try doing it in good faith. A fair point, actually. And, again, my number is now around the 80% mark. Do you know how much Ability Strength Roar needs to outscale Eclipse at that number? Let's compare them at 500% to (80% and 90% Eclipse). I'll even give you the same benefit of assuming it affects all your teammates. What do we see here? The Raw Damage is higher at both values only at the individual level (being stronger than 2 people with all setups), but being outclassed at DoT damage in all setups too (the most prominent being the lack of faction damage, obviously). However, most people that run Roar don't mod the weapon for faction damage due to diminishing returns, so it's probably more accurate to factor at least one player under it aas having no faction mod. Regardless of all of that, it sill does more DoT damage. Functionally, these two numbers achieve the same effect. You are just too caught up in your "I use DPS abilities" argument to consider it from a perspective other than your own playstyle. So, yes, the surgeon is better than the general practitioner. But I'm probably not going to go to the surgeon for a headache. Even at the 31% weapon damage, it would be better if all you need is weapon damage (and disregard DoT damage). Yes, Rhino is diverse in his kit potential, true. Mirage is not particularly diverse, also true. Here's the thing though, Rhino himself doesn't really benefit from Roar. Why? Because it is his Support ability. It is intended for Support of your team more than Rhino himself, unlike Eclipse, which is intended to assist solely Mirage. They are, by their very nature, in-equal. DE tried to equalise them solely based on numerical matching, and failed. You are trying to match them based on diminish scaling, and that is better but still fails. Why? Because an apple and an orange will always be an apple and an orange, and everyone wants the orange to make apple juice. Again, only quoting a small portion of my response to fit your narrative. That is the effect it has, not the intended cause. Yes, it has always buffed both ability and weapon damage (since it's introduction anyway). And, "as it got updated" implies they have actually looked at him with genuine desire to rework him. But, he functions well, is the new player favourite, and one of the most used frames at lower MR levels. And yes, Mirage in her base kit, is intended to have a better buff than Roar. So was Vex Armor (which is what they tried to do to Eclipse if you recall) which is significantly weaker. DE was very clearly trying to weaken the ability, even when compared to Roar. Now, you keep trying to go against that decision, which isn't going to happen (not again). I am trying to make it viable within those restraints. But yes, devolve back to insults. Honestly, they'd be far more impactful if they weren't based on your own ego and desires. Ahhh. I see. You made no mention of Spores, hence my confusion. Thankyou for the clarification. Amazing how you go to "let people play how they want to play" from "you don't belong here" when I mention a different perspective. And, keep that same energy on yourself my guy. Just because you run DPS nukes doesn't mean everyone does. AAnd trying to make a weapon buff equal the DPS of Roar on those frames is obscenely ridiculous, because that is quite literally an advantage it has always had, especially on Saryn who loves both buffs more than most frames. But I agree, nobody is enjoying Eclipse right now, because Roar is worse only in very specific, uncommon examples as is. Even at 45%, that becomes less true (though it is still better in the vast maajority, hence why I increased the number I am arguing). Eh, it's amazing that you say that when you've made grand total of one decent argument in favour of your numbers (and even that is against the clear purpose of the reduction), but it was acknowledged and my argument was altered. I still think that 90% is unlikely, but if they do decide to partially reverse the nerf, and stick it there, I won't be complaining. Heck, I wouldn't be complaining at either 120% or 50% either, because I can see the use-case. It seems like you would be if they only increased it to 80% though, which says more about you than me. The ability has been changed. Accept it. Argue your reasoning why it should be reverted. You're doing that (albeit with far too many insults and ego). And no, +30% Weapon Damage at the cost of the 30% Ability damage is not breaking even, because Eclipse is a unique multiplier. But, by that logic, and increase of 31% would be acceptable (being a technical improvement), but you claim it needs another 30% to be that. Why? I can't be certain, but I would hazard a guess that it is because you treat every single frame in the game as one that wants ability damage enhancements (as that's definitely the impression you are giving). Besides, if you really wanted Eclipse to be better than Roar at weapon damage, it would need to be at least 121%, technically, to be better damage than a squad-wide Roar of equal Strength. And by all means, play who you want to play, how you want to play it. That's what they are there for.

Assuming that a Proficiency System was implemented, they could have it be expanded to have certain milestone requirements for the options though. An example would be having the requirement of "Kill 1000 Eximus Units with Headshots" in order to choose the proficiency upgrade of "Headshots gain 50% increased Critical Chance and +1.5x Critical Multiplier" or something. My understanding of this proposal was some kind of combination of the Incarnon and Riven systems, so that would certainly be doable. Heck, each weapon could have "skill branches" if they really wanted to go through all the effort (though it would get negated fairly quickly as players discover the new "best" weapons), where the options are determined by your playstyle. They could also do a deep dive, and simply have the requirements for upgrading be something as simple as "Kill 100 Enemies with this weapon", but have the game track how you kill the enemies, and provide increases based on that, such as a straight Damage Boost, Headshot Multiplier, Status Damage/Duration, or so on. Honestly, this entire thing seems unlikely anyway, but it's fun to think about.

Uhh, so ... about that ... Scarab Shell's negation triggers before sources such as [Primed Sure Footed], so that's not really going to help. Also, the Status Protection lasts for roughly 3 seconds (from what I've been able to tell). Given that it drains an un-scaling 5% of your Scarab Shell with each negation, it will last for 20 activations, giving you a rough minimum of 60 seconds. It's also unaffected by Nullifier bubbles, so there's that at least. I'm not sure if it triggers before or after [Arcane Nullifier], but that should be fairly easy to check (summon some Hollow Vein units in the Simulacrum and see if your shell gets depleted (assuming you have a max rank [Arcane Nullifier], which I don't (and thus cant check myself))). So, really, this provides 60+ seconds of Status Immunity, which is actually pretty good (compare it to the other methods of attaining Status Immunity). The main downside is that is has priority activation, so [Primed Sure Footed] (and I imagine the resistance arcanes) are basically useless at minimising the drain. If they simply had it apply it's negation after a check for other means of status negation, then it would be so much better. It does make me curious about how he would function with Spellbind or Hideous Resistance. Would Scarab Shell deplete or would Hideous Resistance deplete (or both), and would Spellbind completely prevent the drain, or would it's own immunity be functionally pointless until you lost the shell? Granted, I could check these, but I'm not that curious yet.

This seems to be something we both believe true of the other. You seem to be reading, but not really understanding several of my points. That might be mutual as well honestly. I understand that my posts can be read that way, so I understand why this would be the conclusion you would come to. Still seems a bit excessive to devolve into insults so quickly, but perhaps that's simply my lacking of understanding as to "brevity" being the source of wit or something. After all, you are certainly concise with your insults. My question would then have to be "why would you sacrifice that mod". Because, yes, there is a mod that can provide 99% Ability Strength. But nobody is saying that you have to exclude that mod. The mod you exclude could be [Augur Message] on some builds, because some frames don't really need all of their ability slots to be dedicated to a single thing. But, if you choose to sacrifice [Blind Rage] in place of [Total Eclipse] on a build in which [Blind Rage] is viable, you do you. ... Okay, so you are doubling the ranges off the bat. Interesting approach. As to number two, I would argue that to be a trade-off as opposed to a downside, as you have to be within range of Roar at the moment of casting to receive the buff and, as the ability isn't recastable (unless you run the augment), this can leave you without the buff for up to (if not over) a minute. Your third point (specifically regarding [Narrow Minded]) is just straight correct though. Changing the ranges from 15/25 to 5.1/8.5. Of course, [Piercing Roar] would alter that back up to 18.5 meters, which is a massive difference in Range, which makes it very worth the mod slot, unlike in the case of [Total Eclipse]. Again, insulting (though not actually an insult, so progress). We are, as I've stated before, simply in disagreement over how powerful Eclipse should be in comparison to Roar. You want it to be, hands down, the better weapon buff, and at a rate that it compensates for the damage Roar provides to abilities (for some reason). I understood this quite a while ago, and your remarks on Master-v-Jack was my understanding of what you wanted. "Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff" ... well, no, but also yes. It was designed back before damage buffs were really a thing. That's why it's coded as Faction Damage, because old DE loved to tie systems together to make the game function through the spaghetti code. But, even if that were false, the fact that Roar pre-dates Eclipse quite significantly. Regardless, it has become the Jack-of-all-Trades Damage Buff, so let's roll with that. Nope! Mirage isn't a support frame. She's a frame that specializes in crowd control or damage. Her augment should stay an augment. I'd prefer if Total Eclipse was changed to give allies the full duration of the buff when they are in range. True! Mirage isn't a support frame. I mean, she has CC viability, a damage buff and damage reduction buff, a nuke ability, and another damage enhancer, but she is not a support frame. Do you know who else isn't technically a support frame? Chroma. He's a DPS frame. Two of his abilities (Elemental Ward and Vex Armor) both function the way that [Total Eclipse] does. What I find funny is that you disagree with me ... only to agree with me. Because your proposed change to [Total Eclipse] would have it functioning exactly the way that [Everlasting Ward] does, which was my suggestion. Funny how that works. Oh, but I'm sure you knew that. After all, your very careful with your words, and have immaculate understanding of these topics. I've always known what frames what Roar. You, however, don't seem to know which frames want Eclipse, as you keep trying to tie its damage output potential to match the output potential of a Roar boosted ability, though I could be mistaken. But speaking of your Miasma math could I have a breakdown, because I'm not entirely sure how you got those numbers. This might be a lack of understanding on my part (which would probably account for a large part of the misunderstandings we seem to be having), so it would be greatly appreciated. It depends on how you choose to build the frame. My Roar-Saryn, for example, has it subsumed in place of Miasma. Is this the most optimal for the meta? Probably not. Do I enjoy the build far more? Absolutely. And to me, when I am playing a game, my own enjoyment has a far higher value than straight statistical performance potential. But yes, with their current values (equal at 30%), Eclipse is only better at weapon damage when modded for faction damage and you disregard DoT damage. Thus, you know, the entire post chain regarding the incorrect values. Well no, you have proven that you aren't willing to listen to any argument I make. I have mentioned before that my intent with the numbers I proposed was to let Roar remain stronger in regards to DoT damage at higher power strengths. We are arguing for two different results. However, let's shift entirely to your idea of Eclipse completely outdoing Roar when it comes to weapon damage, because you certainly aren't going to adopt what you see as an incorrect interpretation (DE claimed that they wanted the pick rate of Eclipse to go down after all, and your proposal doesn't really achieve that). No, your "understanding" of my point is the surface level. You disagree with the intent behind my numbers, and that's okay. You seem to be looking at this as if these are the only two abilities that need to be balanced around each other, and that they both need to be better at something. Maybe this is true. But half the subsume abilities don't get used unless someone has a specific need for it. Roar fits the "I need a damage increase", and is on an early-game frame. Eclipse is hidden behind a quest (or the Circuit I suppose), and is only good for weapon damage. Having it always be better than Roar is, in my opinion, not the way the ability should be altered. If you can find the math that has the damage and DoT be better when paired with a Faction Mod, but not better when lacking it, then I will agree with that value. Eclipse should have the potential to be better when built correctly. It is a weapon buffing ability, so it makes sense that the weapon should be built to maximise that. After all, it's not the plug-and-play, jack-of-all-trades ability that Roar is. No, I didn't pull it out of nowhere. I started at 50%, then realised it outscaled too well. In retrospect, that may have been hasty (I didn't do comprehensive, inclusive math, and only did some surface level math), but my initial idea was a sweet spot of 50-60%. But yes, I suppose that the diminished value lacks the general logic in comparison to the source values. By that logic, 50% would be far better (being a 75% reduction instead of a 77.5% reduction). Again with the insults. Here's the thing with a "Standard". They are based on a "Precedent", and those get created. There was no diminished helminth abilities until there were. There was no 85% reduction either, but now there is. That's kind of the point. They aren't based on a "Standard", but on a semblance (true or otherwise) of "Balance". Yes. The source abilities are fine. The reason they went beyond 60% for Eclipse was because of the values themselves (50% v 200%). The 60% reduction to "match" the diminishing of Roar would still leave it at 120% (which they for some reason think is four times stronger than Roar, which we know it just isn't due to how they function, but whatever). Applying the diminish of 60% to the already diminished value seems poor (that's actually a 65% diminish technically), but averaging the two values as a compromise is a fair enough reason. And honestly, once I did the math at 45%, I didn't really factor in the diminish percentage, 85% was bad enough that I didn't really care honestly. If the perfect "balance" had it at 63.134532% or something, then so be it. After all, this is all just theoretical anyway. And again, insults? Really? Is that the only way you know of that allows you to convey your opinion and perspective?

Because, despite what you seem to believe, discussions on a public forum aren't meant to be competitive. Why would I try to compete when I am trying to explain and understand? That's what a discussion is meant to be. And, this is debatable. My logic and reasoning do, in fact, have standards. They just align themselves differently to yours. Ah, so having a different opinion than you is pretentiousness? Got it. My most heartfelt and sincere apologies your all-knowingness. And yes, Eclipse should be arguably better. However, you are making a fair few assumptions in your claim. Firstly, you are assuming that all allies are within range of Roar at the moment of casting. In coordinated squads, this may be the case. But most content the game offers is not run in prebuilt squads, and most players tend to use non-recastable abilities (such as Roar) as soon ass they are available to cast, regardless of where your teammates are. It is true that Eclipse does not provide this at base, though claiming that the one mod-slot required is "significant trade-off" seems disingenuous. That said, it will still be worse than Roar, as it has under half the effective range, so there is trade-off to make it a partially functional imitation. Making it "equal" Roar in range would be more akin to a "significant trade-off", so I'm going to assume that is what you meant. That said, I am fully aware that Roar provides better damage, even at lesser values, due to being shared with teammates by default. Of course, that is under the assumption that they, as I previously stated, where close enough at the time of cast to be affected. Given the general gameplay style most present in most endless missions (standing in a small area and creating a chokepoint), this occurs fairly frequently, admittedly. But building Eclipse with it's augment provides that exact same feature. Honestly, I would argue more that Eclipse should have the effect of it's augment become integrated to it's kit, with the augment shifting to function more like [Everlasting Ward], but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, Roar does do that. Provides a Faction Damage Multiplier to all outgoing damage caused by somebody with the buff. So, yes, frames that utilise ability damage such as Saryn are going to prefer this. The thing is, Saryn would use Roar over Eclipse even if the latter had no diminished effect, because the ability damage is so integral to their kit. Especially given the interaction with Toxic Lash. Yes, I understand you are trying to keep them in-line with their full power (even if you got the numbers wrong in doing so). And, despite your belief to the contrary, I actually can differentiate singular and group buffing abilities. But, prior to the update, how frequently was Eclipse actually better than Roar? It happened to be sure, but it was only really against DoT immune enemies (and even then it required some kind of snapshotting to be consistent, or was helped by the light coding for this express purpose). You seem to be forgetting the fact that the initial, raw damage was never the strength of Roar. It was always the Damage over Time. You're also only providing examples where Primed Faction Mods are present (which gives Eclipse a distinct advantage). Also, we've already agreed that 30% is too low of a value, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up as if I'm defending that particular value instead of comparing the value's we are arguing (45% for me, and 120% for you (to keep it accurate to the diminish of Roar). Now, I'll run some math myself (I'll even do so under un-augmented conditions regarding Eclipse, and give Roar a full 4x multiplier for the players, as you wished. Do you see the pattern? Regardless of the chosen strength of Eclipse at base, the team damage from Roar will outpace it, regardless of whether your modded for Faction Damage or not. That's how it is meant to be. Roar, as a team-wide buff, should provide more DPS when used as a team than Eclipse should as single target ability. However, Eclipse should be better at the individual level, but even Roar at 2 (or possibly 3) should out-DPS it. A 45% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 30.37% of the raw damage, and 25.44% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 34.24%, and the DoT goes to 24.68%. A 90% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 39.79% of the raw damage, and 33.34% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 50.46%, and the DoT goes to 36.24%. A 120% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 46.08% of the raw damage, and 38.60% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 61.27%, and the DoT goes to 44.17%. These values all fall into what I would call an acceptable range (dealing more than 1 user of Roar, but less than 3). Except that both of your proposals have Eclipse outscaling Roar regarding DoT here. However, what happens when you use non-primed faction mods, or no faction mods at all? The 45% Eclipse calculation, with regular faction mods and at base strength, deals 29.45% raw damage and 23.93% of the DoT, the 90% version will deal 38.59% raw damage and 31.35% DoT damage, and the 120% version will deal 44.68% of the raw damage, and 36.30% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, these shift to (32.5% / 22.23%), (47.89% / 32.77%) and (58.1% / 39.79%). Notice that the DoT is still outscaling? Now, once you lose the faction mods, things change. Kind of. The 45% base value deals 27.88% of the raw damage, and 21.44% of the DoT, the 90% version deals 36.53% of the raw damage and 28.10% of the DoT damage, and the 120% base value deals 42.3% of the raw damage, and 32.54% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, these shift to (29.68% / 18.55%), (43.75% / 27.34%) and (53.12% / 33.20%). Without Faction damage multipliers, the 90% proposal now has it's DoT damage outscaled by Roar, but the 120% version (which, again, is what the logic you used says it should be) still scales beyond Roar regarding DoT damage at 200% Strength. Now, 200% Strength is functionally nothing (being achieved with just [Blind Rage] (technically 199%, but whatever)), and there are many builds in the 300%+ range. However, let's see the side by side more clearly, with the 45% value on the left, your 90% value in the middle, and the 120% value (which is what you technically claimed it should be to maintain the diminish scaling between the abilities) on the right; Primed Faction Mods Raw Damage : 30.37% > 34.24% == 39.79% > 50.46% == 46.08% > 61.27% DoT Damage : 25.44% > 24.68% == 33.34% > 36.24% == 38.60% > 44.17% Regular Faction Mods Raw Damage : 29.45% > 32.50% == 38.59% > 47.89% == 44.68% > 58.1% DoT Damage : 23.93% < 22.23% == 31.35% > 32.77%== 36.30% > 39.79% No Faction Mods Raw Damage : 27.88% > 29.68% == 36.53% > 43.75% == 42.30% > 53.12% DoT Damage : 21.44% < 18.55% == 28.10% < 27.34% == 32.54% > 33.20% This has given me two conclusions. The first is that I am incorrect with my number. 45% is still too low, as the raw Damage should be higher. The second conclusion is that you are also incorrect, as 120% leaves the DoT outscaling Roar, which it most definitely should not be doing, and the 90% value only scales correctly when no faction mods are included at all However, I am now more open to higher values, so congratulations. The way you went about it was very, very poor, but I am closer to agreeing with you then I was before. I could do the math to find the ideal value, but, honestly, I don't really care enough when there's no real benefit, but it's probably around 80%. ... Yes and no. You would deal 2945 damage with Eclipse, true. However, in the same scenario with Roar, under the hypothetical you are running with in that it affects every team member, even if you remove faction mods, each teammate will be dealing 1300 damage a piece, for a total of 5200 damage. That is not a difference of 195 damage. If you're going to set the rules of this discussion, at least play by them. Are we going off of 1v1 or 1v4 math? Because you're calculating Roar without the Faction Mods. Now, granted, you don't really use them together due to diminishing returns. But there is no reason that your teammates wouldn't be running them. Also, don't know if you know this, you can have both buffs simultaneously, you just can't have both abilities on the same frame. So any argument regarding team composition is immediately flawed, as you could have one team-buffer support unit with Roar, and your DPS unit(s) with Eclipse or something anyway. Ah yes, because comparing the things they don't share is how you balance it, yes. How much damage reduction is Roar capable of providing again? This is why I said that your math is good, but the argument isn't. You're coming from the position that Eclipse, an ability that is solely a weapon buff, has to compete with the combined damage capability of Roar, which is both a weapon and an ability buff. If you are on a frame that wants to deal damage with abilities, then Eclipse doesn't matter. Even if it had a multiplier of 500%, so long as you wanted to improve your ability damage (granted, at that value you wouldn't need to). This would be like me arguing that Roar needs the ability to reduce incoming damage because that's something that Eclipse can do. The abilities are not identical. Treating them as if they have to have identical damage outputs is foolish and detrimental. They don't need to equal, they simply need to be equally viable. If I am going to run the Murmur Assassination with, say, Loki, do I want the ability that boosts ability damage and weapon damage, or the one that just boosts weapon damage, but does so better? The DoT scaling doesn't really matter there either. Correct. That was a typo. Thankyou for pointing that out. The attitude seems unnecessary, but given you seem to be treating me as a hostile entity because I disagree with you, I suppose it makes sense. Still incredibly rude though. I mean, I'd like to say that "different" would be more apt, but yeah, this is worse. Kind of. It can be useful, such as when teammates are far away at the time of casting, but something more like [Everlasting Ward] would be way better. Ah yes. Focusing on a single aspect. I suppose you don't do that. That's why you knew that 60% of 200% was 90%, even though it is 120%, and based your math around that. And are trying to make to make Eclipse provide weapon damage potential equal to the combined ability damage potential and weapon damage potential of Roar, instead of just trying to have it outperform the Weapon Damage Potential (even if not the DoT damage, but I might give you that if you were able to make that work). I simply can't convince you because you are so sure of yourself that you won't actually internalise or even comprehend anything that goes against your viewpoint. And, again, going right to insults when you can't understand somebody's point of view instead of asking them to elaborate or something. I would respond in kind, but you actually can make a fairly convincing argument ... even if that is only because you are capable of math, and were so far off in your understanding of what I am trying to convey that I had to expand my reasoning, ultimately coming to the conclusion that you are still wrong, but not quite as wrong as I thought. Again, the insults. You're really coming across like somebody who doesn't understand why (almost) nobody likes them, but does absolutely nothing to change themselves, or figure out why it is that way. I do have awareness outside of myself. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be a trait we share. You seem aware that their is an outside, but are perfectly content letting it remain that way as you adopt a "me-against-them" mindset in literally everything, including an entirely pointless discussion about numbers in a videogame, as if either of our opinions (no matter how backed up they are) will change anything. I simply enjoy the conversations with differing viewpoints, but I'll make an exception for you, as you don't want a discussion, you want to browbeat people into agreeing with you without even attempting to understand their viewpoints or basis of their opinion. And the "issue" was apparent. The numbers are too low. You know, the thing I've said the entire time, but you have been to busy being angry and insulting to notice? It's been pointed out to you by me in every response, was pointed out to you by another poster, and yet you are still on the "you have no idea what you're talking about" high-horse that, at this point, is beginning to look like barely clears my ankles. Perhaps you could try to explain, as calmly (and possibly simply) as you can, what it is that you think I am trying to convey? Because I feel like you are under a mistaken impression on that topic. I genuinely hope you are able to improve yourself and your ability to communicate without immediately falling into insults when people disagree with you though, as it's clear you have, at bare minimum, a decent amount of intellect behind the arrogance.

Alright, so, I don't normally fight the unarmed in the battle of wits, but I find you lack of civility genuinely toxic, so I'm going to try one last time to explain to you, in as simple terms as I can, exactly what is happening, since it is clear you have been unable to do that on your own. Firstly, here are some of the quotes from my own posts on this very topic (from earlier pages), in which I am referring to the "Patch Notes"; Wow. Tell me you have literacy capability, but still somehow fail to read. I have been making that exact argument the entire time. The only difference is that I have at least some understanding of damage scaling, and am aware that, at the base 100% strength that you proposed, the roles get reverse, and Eclipse becomes overwhelmingly better than Roar. ... The numbers being the same doesn't make them equal when they are added to different things. Yes, both of the multipliers are for damage, but Roar applies Faction damage (and thus gets quadratic scaling with DoT effects), whereas Eclipse is a unique multiplier. I've run the math. You have run the math (for the 30% strength at least), and still fail to understand that. I am in absolute awe at your lack of awareness. And no, Roar applies to all enemies allies in range of the ability at the time of casting, and will remain on them for the entirety of the duration, regardless of whether they remain in range. [Total Eclipse] applies to allies that are within range of you at any moment while the ability is active, and will only remain active so long as they are still within range of you (which is more similar to the base effect of Elemental Ward). I am aware. You, however, don't seem to be, despite many attempts to educate you (even though you could educate yourself just by reading the posts you quoted properly), that we are doing just that. I am simply going further and saying that some of the player-proposed changes (such as going from 30% to 100%) are, while resulting in the ability being stronger, not going to meet the criteria that DE claimed to be the reason for the nerf. Again, my math wasn't wrong. You just saw the values of the argument and instantly jumped on the "but the values aren't the ones in the patch notes" as if I was countering the patch notes. Imagine claiming somebody's math was wrong because you didn't read the question they were answering. Do you want to see where I did that for the patch note values? Let's have a look; Huh ... how strange. This appears to be the math for the patch notes, along with my proposed value (changing 30% to 45%). But, that can't be, because I never read the patch notes. Now, lets look at your math for a second, and compare the two. And this is on the top of the page ... what is happening? Wait, what's this? The numbers are identical. I mean, except for your conclusion to the Eclipse DoT, which is wrong, but the rest is the same as mine. How could this happen when you based your math on the patch notes? Yeah, 100% has it out-scale Roar in DoT damage at every achievable Strength Value when modded for Faction Damage. I can see your argument in that (having Eclipse be better at the cost of the weapon mod slot), but it isn't meant to be better. It's meant to be equal or worse (hence why they matched value, resulting in it never having better DoT than Roar, which is why people use Roar). Yes, it would be a trade-off ... except it wouldn't be 3x the damage at base. As pointed out by somebody else, people don't use faction mods with Roar (diminishing returns and all that), so only in that situation would it be 3x the damage (3100 v 1300 and 1681.75 v 591.5). But, how would [Total Eclipse] fit into that? Have it altered to have it's strength reduced when allies are within range, or let them get the 3x stronger buff? There are many considerations that have to go into balancing these things, and you are clearly only focusing on one factor. Bringing up the helminth diminish as if I am unaware of this (it's the first quote in the spoiler text, since I know you don't want to read) doesn't change anything. I agree that the drop is too sharp, and it sets a dangerous precedent, but yes, it ultimately makes the ability useless. Welcome to the conversation. Pro-Tip; learn to actually read the posts you quote and the counter-arguments rather than arguing from a ditch thinking you have the high ground. I do accept when I am wrong. I have been wrong several times. None of those times have been against you. And, no, why would I want the base ability to be further nerfed? Are you arguing strawman fallacies now? Also, no. Your math is wrong. And this is basic math too. Roar has a base value of 50%. Eclipse has a base value of 200% (as declared in the patch notes you so espouse as gospel). That is 1/4 of the value. So really, it wouldn't be 30/90, but 30/120 that would "make perfect sense" to you. But, you'd have to admit you're wrong. Nah. DE did that. You're just trying to remove Roar as a viable buff. You know, the thing I've been arguing from the start? And no, that isn't the reason it's viable. So long as it is legitimately competitive to Roar, it is viable. Some people play solo, and Eclipse has a lower energy cost. It doesn't have to be better than Roar, it just can't always be worse (as it now will be, as there is no situation where its DoT is better than Roar, and only does more raw damage when the weapon is modded for Faction Damage). And yes, our little "argument" is over. Eclipse offers more than just damage (even though the DR isn't really worth the ability slot with it's cap of 75%), and can be used for that purpose on certain frames if desired. Roar will still remain the "plug-and-play" damage buff ability, and Eclipse will likely only be used on faction-modded weapons when targeting DoT immune enemies. But I know I'm not going to convince you, as you don't seem on-board with actually hearing (or reading in this case) and digesting viewpoints before responding, instead preferring to shut down the discussion. Have a pleasant day.

So that you can use it as a team buff? Why does [Everlasting Ward] exist if not to allow you to support your teammates better? Also, [Total Eclipse] doesn't make it function like Roar. It makes it function like Elemental Ward and Vex Armor, only providing the buff to teammates while they are within range, instead of applying to teammates that are in range at the time of casting. No, I'm not using the patch notes. Very observant. Except the fact that I mention that 30% in my first sentence. You even quoted that! I am, in fact, using the correct math, as it is based on somebody else's recommended value. (Let me quote it for you;) I am running math based on this suggestion, not DE's official value. I did that a page or two ago. I have also run the math for the ability being a 45% multiplier. So, you didn't "fix" any math. The math I ran was at the suggested 100% buff value, not upcoming 30% value. That said, your math is good. And comes to, functionally, the same thing I have been arguing; that 30% is too low if it is meant to be "equal" to Roar. Though I also argue that going up to 100% is far too high, which you might have known if you read even the post you quoted me from. Again, maybe actually read the post you're quoting? It ended with this; Pro-Tip. Read your source material. Granted, this doesn't mention the patch notes at all, but if you read just this page alone, you would probably understand why my math is where it is. Ah, so completely remove Roar as a viable weapon damage buff in comparison to Eclipse? Maybe you didn't notice, but I ran the math for it at 100%. Heck, I gave Roar a 79% Strength advantage, and it was still failing to compare even at over 500% Strength. You might not have noticed that; you only quoted it after all. You saw those numbers, and are now saying that 90% would be a good, balanced option? Maybe you're the one who needs to do some reading. Okay, a range mod to match the range. That makes sense, I suppose. Arbitrary, but if you want it to be used as a team buff that would make sense. This makes so much more sense. I mean, that's still only if you want to be a team support, and don't hug your allies, but I'll concede the point. Granted, the frame using the ability in this way probably has other needs for range, but regardless. Perhaps this is me lacking a level of understanding, but why would it have double the strength? I get that [Overextended] would reduce the Strength by 60% ... but uhh; I ran them with a Strength variation of 79%. And, on that topic ... I provided math for the Primed Faction mods and no faction mods. Either way, Eclipse is better (when everything is built properly) when it has a base value of 100%. This was at 100% and 179% Strength (Strength variation). Yes, without Faction mods, Roar outpaced in terms of DoT. I suppose I could have used regular Faction mods but, as you said, most people don't use then with Roar. Realistically, you should be comparing Eclipse with faction mods to Roar without them by that logic, and that is a landslide victory to Eclipse. ... I mean true, but completely missing the point. That said, with all the means of energy economy we have, it probably wouldn't make much difference honestly.

"For Eclipse to be what Roar is" ... yeah, that's not how abilities work. Roar is a damage multiplier, and that's all it is. Granted, it's a team-wide damage multiplier, but still a damage multiplier. Additionally, the multiplier stacks additively with Faction Mods. Eclipse, on the other hand, is not additive to any source of damage (as far as I am aware), existing as a wholly unique multiplicative factor. This means that, for the same buff value, Eclipse will never result in less raw damage than Roar. However, this comes at the cost of it not being privy to the quadratic scaling when factoring Damage over Time (functionally leaving it as the worse option in the current Viral-Slash and Viral-Heat meta). Now, you've mentioned that Eclipse requires additional mod slot to allow it to function as a team buff, which is true. Furthermore, "For Eclipse to be what Roar is, it needs 2 mod slots" is how you phrase this. Ignoring the fact that the two are, inherently not equal, I am not sure why you are saying this takes two mod slots. I will give you benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are referring to [Total Eclipse] on the Warframe, and a Primed Faction mod on the weapon in question, and work from that. In this regard, you are incorrect. With Faction mods or without them, with a base of 100%, Eclipse will outperform Roar, so long as they either both run with the faction mod, or neither run with the faction mod. Only when you use Roar with a faction mod will you do more DoT damage than using Eclipse without the faction mod (dealing a little over 100% additional DoT damage). So, really, the only mod-cost to "match" the two is the one slot for [Total Eclipse] to provide a damage increase to your teammates. But, let's ignore that, and assume that there is the 79% difference in Power Strength between the two abilities, and run the math from that, using the same base as my previous math, where Eclipse provides a damage increase equal to Ability Strength; 100% Eclipse / 179% Roar Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 2 = 3100 DoT : 3100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75 Roar : 1000 * 2.087 = 2087 DoT : 2087 * 2.087 * 0.35 == 1524.44915 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000 DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700 Roar : 1000 * 1.537 = 1537 DoT : 1537 * 1.537 * 0.35 == 826.82915 500% Eclipse / 579% Roar Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 6 = 9300 DoT : 9300 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 5045.25 Roar : 1000 * 3.287 = 3287 DoT : 3287 * 3.287 * 0.35 == 3781.52915 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 6 = 6000 DoT : 6000 * 0.35 == 2100 Roar : 1000 * 2.737 = 2737 DoT : 2737 * 2.737 * 0.35 == 2621.90915 This version of the math has Roar eventually overtake Eclipse in DoT Damage when no weapons are modded for faction damage, but has Eclipse vastly overperform when they are. However, your argument was that Eclipse takes two mod slots to "compete" with Roar. So, we will use the Faction Modded damage of Eclipse, and the non-faction modded damage from Roar. From that we get a damage discrepancy in favour of Eclipse. At (100%/179%), Eclipse deals 101.69% more raw damage than Roar, and 103.39% more DoT damage. At (500%/579%), it deals 239.78% more raw damage, and 92.42% more DoT damage. Functionally, there is no achievable build in which Roar, when paired with a weapon lacking faction mods, will deal more raw damage or DoT damage than Eclipse paired with faction mods. Even if you take them as both being modded for faction damage, the same trend continues. It is only when neither weapon is modded for faction damage that Roar will deal more DoT damage than Eclipse. That said, please tell me what you meant by 2 mods, because this cannot be it. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this. You're saying that you think that Eclipse should always be better than Roar in solo (assuming identical builds) from what I am reading, if I am reading it correctly. But, if that is the case, then there would be functionally no reason to ever subsume Roar, except for frames who's main method of DPS is ability based. In this situation, as I've stated, you could have Eclipse drain your entire energy bar, and it would still be a better choice than Roar, so making it have a higher cost would not prevent it from being spammed (if there was a reason to spam it, which there isn't). Also, I'm guessing that by "Have both effects as needed", you are referring to the Solar Eclipse and Lunar Eclipse buffs? It is my understanding that you could only have one active at a time, so I'm guessing this means cycling between the effect that is more beneficial at any given time. However, with the damage scaling as you proposed it, you would only use Solar Eclipse, as there's no damage to reduce if everything is dead, which they would be. Yeah, at this point there's no real chance of it being changed for the next update. My argument to you is that 100% is far too high of a base (honestly, I didn't realise how strong it was until I got into all the math myself), but even at 50%, it is conditionally stronger in damage that Roar all the way up to 300% strength. At 45%, it's conditionally weaker by 175%. That is how ludicrous the ability scaling can be.

... because this isn't the "obvious solution" maybe? 100% is obscenely better than 30% (like, exponentially). Let's do some quick math for you, where Eclipse provides Uniquely Multiplicative damage equal to Ability Strength (as you proposed), and compare it to Roar and it's 30% at base, both with and without the Primed Faction Mods, to see the damage difference (and DoT difference), assuming a base damage of let's say 1000 (for the easy math). At 100% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55* 2 = 3100 DoT : 3,100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75 Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 DoT = 1850 * 1.85 * 0.34 == 1197.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000 DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700 Roar = 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5 At 500% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 6 = 9300 DoT : 9300 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 5045.25 Roar : 1000 * 3.05 = 3050 DoT : 3050 * 3.05 * 0.35 == 3255.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 6 = 6000 DoT : 6000 * 0.35 == 2100 Roar : 1000 * 1.5 = 1500 DoT = 1500 * 1.5 * 0.35 == 787.5 At 1000% Power Strength Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 11 = 17050 DoT : 17050 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 9249.625 Roar : 1000 * 4.55 = 4550 DoT : 4550 * 4.55 * 0.35 == 7245.875 No Faction Mod Eclipse : 1000 * 11 = 11000 DoT : 11000 * 0.35 == 3850 Roar : 1000 * 3 = 3000 DoT : 3000 * 3 * 0.35 == 3150 Do you see the theme? There is no achievable level of Power Strength where Roar will deal more weapon damage than Eclipse, be it Raw Damage or DoT damage, even without a source of Faction Damage on the weapon, provided the builds are the same. While it would still allow you to deal Faction Damage through abilities (and thus still gain quadratic scaling for them), very few frames actually care about that. Additionally, [Total Eclipse] allows you to provide the buff from Eclipse to your teammates so long as they are within range. I do, however, agree that they should increase the DR cap to 90% and lower the initial value from 75% to compensate (and ideally let Mirage reach the cap of 95% still). Altering the energy cost makes no real difference, and, with the 100% scaling, this ability could instead cost 100% of your maximum energy, and it would still be the most energy efficient damage enhancement ability available in the helminth when weapon damage is concerned. Roar gets applied to allies within 25 meters by default, and they maintain this regardless of how far they go after the cast until the duration expires. This, alongside the ability to increase ability damage, and ultimately being a better damage increase should be the benefits of running the ability. In order to achieve a similar thing, Eclipse needs it's augment mod (which will create a pale imitation of Roar's damage support for teammates), and has a shorter duration by default (compensated by the lower energy cost).

Okay, so, as far as the general idea goes (Weapon Proficiency), I support it wholeheartedly. Something like this could be, functionally, a better weapon balancing system than the Riven system, provided the Characteristics Changes (which I'm picturing similarly to the Incarnon Levels) would be individualised to each weapon themselves, with them potentially being mutually exclusive with the Incarnon Adapters. Ideally, the Incarnon Adaptor would not need to be fully mutually exclusive, as their could be a toggle between the two within the arsenal (Enable/Disable Incarnon Adaptor). This would allow you to choose between Incarnon Form + Boosts, and the new Proficiency Boosts (which would likely be stronger). Of course, each weapon would likely need to have individualised Characteristic Improvements, in both values and the features themselves (as well as weapon versions as the Incarnon Boosts and Rivens also differentiate). This would require more work on DE's part, but would ultimately result in a better system. Given that you've suggested 25 levels, and a total of 5 Characteristic Buffs, this would visually appear similar to Incarnon Adaptors as well, allowing all weapons to become viable if built correctly (and used enough), though I do argue that the means of gaining proficiency would likely also need to be altered for certain weapons. Additionally, you show now real rewards for any levels other than levels 5-10-15-20-25. Instead, I would argue for having only six levels (akin to the Incarnon Adaptors) just to streamline the process, with exponential requirements (as well as potentially having weapon specific challenges). However, weapon versions (such as regular and Primed Variants) would be entirely separate (unlike with Incarnon Adaptors), due to having different statistics. Let's use the [Hystrix] as an example. The first level requirements could be something like 500 Kills, and 500,000 XP (functionally level 31.5) to unlock the ability to perform the first challenge; inflict 250 ETCH status effects (Electric, Toxin, Cold, Heat). This would be easy for this weapon, as each shot has a 100% chance to do this (and therefore this challenge is basically just "land 250 shots". Completing this challenge would give you your first Characteristic change. Something like, "Increase Critical Chance by +6%", "Switch Puncture Damage and Slash Damage" and "Increase Reload Speed by 25% (+ Khora (Prime) has a 20%(+12%) chance to instantly reload on headshot)". The fifth level could be the addition of an elemental type for certain weapons (or elemental combinations), or adding forced procs (such as a forced Electric Proc on the [Prova] on a Heavy Attack). The first five challenges would provide characteristic improvements, whereas the sixth (achieved at maximum weapon experience (as listed in the profile)) would unlock an exclusive skin (or possibly the Conclave Skin, making them obtainable for the people that don't play conclave, but that might get backlash from the conclave players). This would be sufficiently grindy for it to reward Conclave Skins (or new exclusives) but not time-gated or restricted, allowing players to gain them at their own speed (no matter how fast or slow that happens to be). To summarise, as long as the upgrades (and their values) are targeted to the weapons (and variants), this is viable (no-one cares if the [Stug] gains +500% base damage, but giving it magnetic and gas, and upping its multi-shot and status chance might allow it to act as a good primer).

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, technically, technically, there are only 13 Helminth abilities (Empower, Infested Mobility, Master's Summons, Rebuild Shields, Perspicacity, Energized Munitions, Marked For Death, Expedite Suffering, Parasitic Armor, Hideous Resistance, Voracious Metastasis, Sickening Pulse, and Golden Instinct). Of course, that's a technicality, as the general overarching term typically includes the subsumable abilities as well. More accurate of a comment would be to say that 90% of the abilities are off-meta or non-competitive to the meta. That said, my mind is now on the Helminth abilities, and how they could (potentially) be pushed to be more viable options, as well as the inclusion of augment mods for one of them. Keep in mind that the numbers I am using are indicative of the effect I am imagining, not absolute (obviously). But, back to the initial point I am quoting, the insult was uncalled for. The game has a meta. Every game with even half this much content and player controlled variability will. People make simple builds. Granted, a lot of people just copy-paste builds they see on YouTube, but there are a lot of people that experiment, or play by arbitrary self-enforced rules to make the game meet their standard of fun (or, like Triburos' Stug Challenge, to induce self-psychosis). The fact that certain things are just straight up better is fact. My [Stug] will never outcompete with a [Torid] (Incarnon), no matter how many Forma I throw at it. That's just how it is. The abilities are the same. Thermal Sunder will always perform better as a Lith-Nuke than Fire Blast on Titania because it's factually better. It has higher damage, and lower energy cost. It doesn't matter that it only has half the range, or that the latter can armor strip, because the prior kills everything. Leaves a field of death too. Now, calling 90% of the abilities "trash" is just incorrect. But, when you are targeting the meta, and judging them solely through that lens? Then I'd say 75% of them are functionally non-viable. Even on the nerfs this is about (Eclipse and Nourish), I can only really agree that the second was a fair nerf (as is evident by my other posts), as Eclipse does become practically non-viable as a damage enhancer with their proposed numbers, as Roar vastly outperforms it, even with the energy cost difference, as, unless you mod the correct faction onto your weapons every mission, Roar is a better choice because of the meta. If you are using either of those abilities, of course.

No, the math works. It just makes assumptions that are false in most situations, as the general player base (myself included) typically doesn't use Faction Mods, whether that be due to the annoyance of cycling them for different factions, a lack of necessity (as the builds without them are still capable of outputting sufficient damage), or just a lack of space on the build (and Faction Damage being regarded as more of a "flex" option than a necessary one). Of the weapons I have actually used recently, I think only three or four of them currently use Faction Mods. I also don't use Roar as a subsumed ability (and therefore don't get the giant damage boost), and currently only have Eclipse on two or three frames (barring outdated builds that I don't use), so most of my gameplay is done without the oppressive presence of the damage boost. I am running Nourish on a few more frames, but that is honestly more for the Energy Multiplier. But, as far as the math and intention of the ability change goes, DE want Roar to be the better damage buff overall. Given the reliance it has on Ability Strength, I would say that having Eclipse provide better DoT DPS at lower Strength values, but being quickly outscaled, would be a significantly better implementation than the listed values. Under the assumption of the current strength values, a weapon that deals 1000 Damage, and both with and without a Primed Faction Mod (+55%), then you get the following (which is basically just slightly expanded math); (30%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.3) = 2,015 | = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300 DoT == (2,015 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,093.1375 | == (1,300 * 0.35) = 455 (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850 | = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300 DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875 | == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5 Basically, Roar has less initial damage when modded for Faction damage, and equal when it isn't, but a higher DoT DPS in both forms. In this iteration, Eclipse will never perform better than Roar when not modded for Faction damage, and will only ever outperform Roar in flat DPS (excluding DoT) even with Faction Mods (and will never outperform it regarding DoT. Now, alter the base value of Eclipse from 30% to 45% (which is my new "ideal" as 50% was realistically too high (I screwed up my math a bit)), and you instead get the following; (45%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.45) = 2,247.5 | = (1000 * 1.45) = 1,450 DoT == (2247.5 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,219.26875 | == (1,450 * 0.35) = 507.5 (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850 | = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300 DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875 | == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5 Eclipse now has better initial Damage and DoT than Roar (at base strength) when modded for Faction Damage, but still loses out in DoT on builds without Faction Damage (though the initial hit will now always be higher). This allows Eclipse to be consistently better at initial damage, both with and without Faction Mods, but keeping Roar as the better form of DoT damage due to its higher quadratic scaling. It also allows Eclipse to be similarly viable in regards to DoT Damage when your weapon is modded for Faction Damage, up until around the 175% mark, where Roar begins to outpace it. Summarily, Roar will always result in more DoT damage if the weapon is not modded for faction damage, whereas Eclipse will always result in more raw DPS regardless. This functionally makes Eclipse more viable for damage at lower Ability Strength values than Roar, but keeps Roar as the superior option for high Strength builds (or when running without faction mods) for DoT builds. Additionally, Eclipse will work better (and not just as an equivalent) when it comes to dealing raw damage, and when facing entities that are not members of a moddable target faction. Note; The reason that I have lowered my suggested value from 50% to 45% is that 50% makes Eclipse better at Faction-Modded DPS than Roar even at 300% Ability Strength (though only slightly). Given that Roar is meant to be a better damage boosting ability, I decided to lower it. The reduction of only 5% lowers that exchange of power scaling from 300% Power Strength to only 175% Power Strength. Basically, with this value, under the assumption of using Faction Mods, you would use Eclipse on builds of less than 175% Strength, and Roar on builds with more than 175% Power Strength, if DoT damage is your priority.

Loki's kit is fairly well rounded (even though I enjoy hypothetical rework conversations) for the most part. He only has two genuine flaws in his current iteration; his Passive serves functionally no purpose (even though it can be kind of fun to stick to a wall for practically an entire mission at times), and that his Decoy gets evaporated merely by being seen by range-capable enemies (which was made harder to counter due to Eximus Overguard). Minor issues with his kit included the mobility penalty from Switch Teleport, and a lack of actual damage viability, as he has no means of increasing his outgoing damage or increasing incoming damage (such as armor removal or damage vulnerability). The changes that are being implemented remove one of his major flaws (or give the potential for it), and fix the first of the minor issues (and actually reverse it by providing him aa mobility boost). Ultimately, DE admitted that they "don't really have any great ideas" regarding a full Loki rework, which means the odds of changing his passive are rather low. Which I see as a shame, as they could easily provide him a passive that does something akin to increasing his damage potential; "Loki gains x% Critical Chance and Damage against enemies targeting his Decoy, and gains x% Status Chance against disarmed enemies." or something. Or, keeping with his current Wall Latch passive, simply expand upon that to provide him some kind of buff while latched (and thus tying the passive into his general gameplay loop). Especially since they went through the effort to make sure that all of his abilities can be cast while latched (excluding when you activate the Ability Menu with a controller at least, which is kind of annoying sometimes). On that same issue, it would also be nice if the "on Wall Latch" triggers (such as on [Arcane Avenger] and [Proton Snap]) would have their timer paused (or extended) while wall latched, but that's even more unlikely. Some additional synergies would be appreciated as well. Decoy receiving some kind of buff when targeted by Switch Teleport or (as discussed in another post) casting Radial Disarm alongside Loki himself would be interesting implementations, but his kit is rounded enough that he doesn't need overly complicated ability synergies. With the new update, I'm already having problems deciding which ability to overwrite via the Helminth as is, as all of them can be equally viable (and running without a Helminth is even more viable now than before). Not to mention he will actually benefit from the +300% Strength boost in Arbitrations and Archon Hunts now, to some degree. Then there's his upcoming augment, [Damage Decoy], which implies that the ability will either have innate damage reflection, or will have said feature added by the augment itself (though the wording infers the prior), while the augment itself acts as a fairly good, randomised primer (and let's him easily trigger [Manifold Bond], which means he will work very well with altered Companion Nuke builds (which may be a viable substitute in most content to make up for his own lack of DPS viability)). On the visual front, a change I would like to see is Decoy being more customisable in appearance. It technically copies the fashion frame of the caster, but the image it takes is heavily altered. If it would become harder to distinguish from the caster (or if it looked more like the caster if the caster was under the effects of Invisibility or it was subject to Switch Teleport even), and potentially was equipped with the user's Secondary (instead of the Lato/Lex Prime). The upcoming changes to invisibility customisation are great, of course, but being able to customise the Decoy in a similar fashion would be something I would greatly enjoy. I'd also really like a symmetrical skin, but that seems very unlikely.

I mean, not entirely useless (it can be a nice subsume heal for low HP frames that need the stun), but I wasn't even aware of this interraction ... mostly because I haven't touched Marked for Death more than twice. But I've edited my initial post to include this.

So, I agree with you partly (in that this is not survivable enough). However, you can technically now build for a more survivable Decoy with Ability Strength. Removing this by making him intangible or invincible (thus making it Duration-only) will not only result in the Duration being drastically reduced for balancing purposes, but it removes the potential synergies that it now opens up for the Helminth (as so many of them need Strength, and none of Loki's current abilities do). For example; does Null Star provide damage reduction to Decoy? Now, yes, I know that that scales off of Duration, but the augment is a Strength nuke (kind of). Because, you already build Loki for Duration (four of my six builds are at or over 300%), and giving it health to take advantage of that may be nice. Of course, Loki doesn't really need it himself (even if functionally guaranteed 90% DR is nice), so let's shelf that (that's more of a personal curiosity thing anyway). Besides, the only reason you tank Strength is because he wants maximum duration (and thus uses [Narrow Minded]) but also wants Range (and therefore needs [Overextended]). If you don't tank your Strength, you can make good use of Breach Surge as both additional CC and a damage enhancer. You could also make potentially better use of Nourish. The armor-stripping abilities are now feasible without sacrificing a mod slot that adds nothing to the rest of your kit. Heck, Decoy is the ability most people subsume over. Do you know what that means? The builds don't change. Now, let's make it completely indestructible. First, we need to rebalance the Duration and/or the Threat Level. So, the Duration goes from 25 seconds down to 8 seconds, and enemies will now prioritise the Defense Target if they can see it. Why? Because everyone builds for Duration and its too good of a stall if it can't die. Oh, also, you now need to rework [Deceptive Bond], as it would make you unkillable at just 200% Strength (although it already kind of needs a rework to be fair, but for the opposite reason). Now, if they gave it a period of Invincibility (ie, the first five seconds after appearing), then they could keep the proposed change that allows it to scale while still providing a minimum survival time. You also have to keep in mind that, if you want an "invincible decoy", you can use Resonator. That "fixes" the flaw in his kit in a more effective way. Also, you could just use Decoy after Radial Disarm. The enemy's have to path to it before they can destroy it. Alternatively, you can put it somewhere that the enemies can't target it (like behind a wall), and they will shoot the wall. There are ways to make the ability work even without the increased survivability, they're just painful. Besides, even if you change absolutely nothing about the builds, this proposed Decoy is still likely going to survive longer than the current one, even on Strength-Dump build. Also, I don't think I did misunderstand you. Even if you drop the Duration to four seconds, you can still keep it indefinitely. It just requires recasts ... just like it does now. I am aware that you want it to be indestructible, not permanent. But if it lives and dies solely by Duration, then the only thing you ever need to worry about when playing Loki is running out of energy, and it allows for practically AFK strategies (cast 2, cast 1, repeat). There would never be a reason to use your fourth ability, except to force enemies to your Decoy due to it's heightened threat level. Making the Decoy indestructible will functionally destroy Loki, not fix him. Brief invincibility could work (like Iron Skin or Snowglobe), but it should be a few seconds at most and probably un-spammable (cannot recast while active) to balance even that. If you want to keep it invincible you can with [Safeguard Switch] (although, as I mentioned, I feel that should be innate to the ability synergy), and it should have scaling Damage Resistance or some kind of Damage Attenuation, but pure invincibility is, in my opinion, not the way to go. Also ... Kind of, but not really. If the Duration is, say eight seconds on the invincible one, but the Strength Scaling one is twenty-five, the first one only lasts longer if you can't protect or preserve the latter (basically, it lasts longer if you set-and-forget). I proposed Switch Teleport providing it a period of invincibility (and possibly a heal, now that I think of it) that scales off of either Strength or Duration (or both), which the augment already technically does. Provided you actually interact with it, is lasts far longer. It just requires you to maintain it. I will almost always argue that interaction is better than a lack-of it (except in the cases of micro-managing, like the pre-Dante Eclipse is in regards to light levels and snapshotting). DE could definitely improve their idea further, but this is a good start. A halfway point (12 second Duration, no health) could possibly work, but it ultimately comes back to it being a matter of interaction and the fact that most of us want to be able to play Loki without engaging more than 2 brain-cells. His Invisibility is the longest in the game, and people complain because it isn't re-castable and he dies if he gets breathed on too hard. I have been enjoying the Circuit (SP) for the past few months, and Loki actually performs fairly well there, whether I play with Decoy or Radial Disarm replaced by a Helminth ability (or neither of them). I even have a build waiting for the new augment and changes that I'm legitimately excited to play. The only thing that stalls me, realistically, is the Assassination stage, as I have no reliable form of DPS as Loki, nor can I contribute much to that stage as him except armor-stripping or disarming, and need to rely on my weapons or teammates, and it is more often than not the latter. That's just my opinion though, but I have actually played Loki (and not just used him to cheese, though that can be fun too). It would be an improvement in ease of use, but overall I think it would just result in a nerf again when they removed it.

I'd settle for having it tied to your Primary Energy/Emissive colour. You run a brighter colour, Solar Eclipse becomes stronger but Lunar Eclipse becomes weaker. Run a darker colour, and the opposite is true. As long as the scaling strength of Solar Eclipse isn't a measly 30% (50% is the sweet spot by the math, though I could be wrong). This way, the default is 30/75, running with a bright (white) energy/emissive and it goes to 50/50, but run a dark (black) energy/emissive, and it goes to 20/90. Honestly, I don't think that 30% is good enough of a damage buff, nor is 75% good enough of a damage reduction. Having it be one or the other in this sense lets you build for your preferred option, but still gives you access to the alternative (at a reduced strength), or even just buffing the chosen attribute without weakening the other (going from 30/75 to 50/75 or 30/90). I think it was originally, but it was too strong. Plus, it currently has a very good duration, and losing that (which you would have to if it was straight unkillable) would decrease energy efficiency (which is admittedly less of an issue these days). But honestly, I think that's the point. Negative-Strength is still detrimental to it, but still allows it to scale fairly well if you place it properly. I think the main issue is; "draws 15% of the Health and Shield totals of enemies within a base of 15m, scaling with Ability Strength and Range, respectively". This means that his armor (and thus damage reduction) does not really increase by much. If they provided some form of innate Damage Reduction or Damage Attenuation, he would be more useful as, without armor, his health doesn't matter too much against 1000+ SP enemies. This may provide him a few extra second of survivability though, which means he is easier to target with Switch Teleport, so you could conceivably keep him alive for the entire duration if you use [Safeguard Switch]. Ideally, you should be able to make the Decoy invulnerable without using that augment (and have the augment give the invincibility to you when yo switch with it), but you can somewhat do this already. That said, it does add a far better distraction even with their proposed changes, and some improvement is better than no improvement. Could still be better, of course, but this is a good start, and I'd rather small, consistent improvements rather than a single buff and consequent nerf. But this is, ultimately, a first step. If this is the only change they are intending to make, however, then it will likely fall flat, though actual play-testing will be required.

Okay, so I'm not sure how you're getting those problems. I literally just hopped into the Simulacrum with a 300% Strength half-build, with [Elemental Sandstorm] and [Archon Continuity], with a Nourish Subsume. The weapon I chose for this testing was the {Galatine Prime}, as it has 95% Slash-Weight at base. Modded with a max rank [Fever Strike], to keep the weighting about even. I'm guessing you're using a weapon with different IPS weighting, so that might be why. Without Nourish active, the elemental weighting is 1.3% for both Impact and Puncture, 50% for Slash, and 47.3% for Toxin. My quick spin of Sandstorm ended (when I could look at the enemy), with 5 stacks of Slash, 4 of Toxin, and 3 stacks of Corrosive. So, [Archon Continuity] was definitely activating, but it would only activate once per instance, even if the number of Toxin status effects being applied by that same instance was 2, as the rotation would be; Slash/Slash/Toxin(Corrosive) Toxin(Corrosive)/Slash/Slash Toxin(Corrosive)/Toxin/Slash Repeat With Nourish however, the elemental weighting gets demolished, with Viral taking 54.2%, Toxin taking 21.6%, Slash taking 22.8%, and Impact and Puncture taking 0.6%. With this cast (which was longer), I had 10 stacks of Viral, but only 3 of Slash and Toxin and Corrosive. Again, that makes sense numerically, as the rotation would be; Viral/Viral/Slash Toxin(Corrosive)/Viral/Viral Slash/Toxin(Corrosive)/Viral Viral/Slash/Toxin(Corrosive) Repeat Then I tried running with [Primed Fever Strike] and [Buzz Saw], which gave initial weightings of 0.6% for Impact and Puncture, a 43.5% for Toxin, and 55.1% for Slash. This had the same problem of double-procs on Toxin not being applied as Corrosive however. Activating Nourish alters the weightings, putting Impact and Puncture down to 0.4%, Toxin down to 27.3%, Slash down to 34.6%, and Viral at 37.2%. This particular combination resulted in equal distribution of Toxin and Corrosive in my test. Now, with the upcoming changes to Nourish, the weighting on a 300% Strength build will drop, as the Viral Damage addition will drop from 225% to only 135%. On the same (first) build, this would change the weighting to 0.7% Impact and Puncture, 29.2% Slash, 27.6% Viral, and 41.5% Viral. This will still result in a similar loop of Viral priority however. The second build however would maintain an initial weighting of 0.6% for Impact and Puncture, 55.1% Slash, and 43.5% Toxin, but would shift to 0.4% Impact and Puncture, 40.6% Slash, 32.1% Toxin, and only 26.2% Viral. This completely removes the double activation of Toxin, which would give an even distribution of Toxin and Corrosive, and a fairly even spread of Viral as well. However, the upcoming changes to Inaros himself means that he has an alternative means of applying Corrosive status in the form of Scarab Swarm, so there is no need to rely on [Elemental Sandstorm] for this particular purpose (especially since Sandstorm is being reworked from a channelled ability to a Duration ability (and one with a fairly short base duration at that)). That all said, I'm actually very much looking forward to the update, especially when it comes to Inaros on Duviri (My SP Circuit Inaros just ... doesn't right now). His new Scarab Shell works really well with Fortified Will, specifically at Rank 3, which will let you get the 500% Strength bonus even if you have 40% Strength and no additional armor, and Molten Mettle adds scaling Heat damage to [Elemental Sandstorm]. His survivability might still be a bit problematic, but I might actually be Polarizing over some Umbral slots on him, which brings tremendous pain. Of course, then there's the further synergetic nature of Luscinia's Suffering, Shattering Frost, and Baneful Harmony, as well as Twofold Torment and Close Contagion, which will give him potentially ludicrous amounts of damage. Add Roar into that, and not much will be surviving his Sandstorm. Went a bit off topic there. Theoretically, in order to get all 3 every time, with a zero chance of failure or inconsistency (theoretically), you would need a 300% Strength Inaros (for [Elemental Sandstorm] to apply 3 status procs each tick), Nourish, and a Dorrclave (the only 100% Slash melee) modded with a rank 3 [Buzz Kill], a rank 2 [Rending Strike] or [Jagged Edge] or [Carnis Mandible], a rank 10 [Primed Fever Strike], and a rank 3 [Virulent Scourge]. This mod combination would give you 499.5 (+125%) Slash and (+225%) Toxin Damage, which is the exact amount of Viral damage that Nourish would give you. I can't test this however, as I do not have those mods at those ranks, nor do I desire to (I already don't like using the non-max mods I do use (such as r9 [Blind Rage] on certain builds). Of course, these numbers are for the current iteration of Nourish. After the rework, you'd need to drop that to +35% Slash and +135% Toxin. This would require the same mod combinations for Slash, but with both of the mods being r0. Toxin, however, would need regular [Fever Strike] instead of ita Primed counterpart, and one of the two mods would need to be one rank below maximum (r4+r3 or r5/r2), putting both damage values at 299.7, which is what the new Nourish will provide. You could also use [Masseter] / [Masseter Prime] with a Riven possessing -100% Impact (which the Prime doesn't have the disposition for) to get a 100% Slash melee, though you would need to balance the stats differently, getting both Toxin and Slash damage to exactly 542.3 Damage, which I'm not even certain is possible (in fact, I actively don't think the balance can be made an exact 3-way split). TLDR; It should work as long as you are applying Toxin, but might not apply at an equal ratio if your Toxin weight is too high.

Okay, so I feel this is quoting me slightly out of context, but you're objections are 100% correct. They are different frames. Mirage is made of tissue paper. However, when you look at the places where Eclipse was most likely to be used, it is in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis, where the luminosity levels provided a very consistent Damage Buff. Yes, the reduction needs to be larger, as most frames that will subsume it are, unlike Mirage, made of something other than wet tissue paper (most of the time). But it was still too large of a reduction, especially since the other "half" of the ability us borderline useless as a Helminth option (75% DR is not really worth the ability slot). The comparisons (such as Thermal Sunder doing 135 damage) were to highlight how absurd the decrease was, not as an actual indication of balance. All my actual comparisons were in regards to Roar, as far as the numeretical balance of the ability goes, as thats the only ability in the Helminth that functions similarly enough to be a fair comparison. But, due to the quadratic scaling of Faction damage (which is not present in the Final Multiplication of Eclipse), having the two be "equal" in their base numbers would ultimately lead to Roar being used in almost every situation where you would take Eclipse, except in the odd case where you wanted the Damage Reduction or were targeting a boss and had your weapons modded for Faction Damage (such as The Fragmented One or Profit-Taker), and even then the different wouldn't be large enough to bother with for most people. That would lead to the usage stats of Eclipse as a Helminth Ability being transferred, almost in their entirety, to Roar, which is already used more. And that would certainly not "make the more used Helminth ability's less used", which was functionally their reason for the proposed "balance". ... yeah, that's what I suggested? I've already run the math. People are proposing 75-100%, which I feel is too strong. The sweet spot is between 40 and 60 percent, to allow Roar to still be the ultimately better choice overall while still allowing Eclipse to shine in the places where it can (such as on Status Immune (or DoT immune) enemies). Ultimately, Roar will always be a better option for Endurance, because most enemies are not DoT immune, whereas Eclipse is better for targeted missions, such as the Eidolon fights, or the Profit-Taker, which would not be the case if it's Base value was the same as Roar. I understand that this is a 9 page post (currently) and my initial post was on page 7, and was a rather long post so it might not have been read ... but you were responsible for the post after my initial post.

In the actual stream, it showed enemies getting maximum Corrosive Stacks with a few seconds. I'm guessing that the Swarm does a fraction of the actual damage (let's say 1/30th of Inaros' Health, but they attack three times per second, equalling 1/10th of his maximum hp. Now, this might have been because of the enemy grouping and the capability for spreading the ability has, but its definitely possible. It really doesn't explain that well in the post though.

Well, it's nice to see that his finisher-heal is retained. The alteration of his innate death-resistance is glorious though, as it was completely unusable when playing solo at even average levels. (it could be used in squads due to the mechanics, but required a very specific level of team synergy that was often not accomplished). Obviously, this is dependant on the exact number of hits required, how it scales with consecutive bleedouts, and the rat of decay. It has, however, retained the minor problem of squad reliability. As it is listed as being "normal" movement and melee-exclusive combat, the included clip indicates that this leaves you with no weapon (which is fine, as it is hit dependant and not damage dependant), which minimises your attack range along with having a slow attack speed (which I am seeing as an inbuilt balancing mechanic), as well as forcing you into what appears to be parkour-viable walking speed. If this allows full parkour (specifically Bullet Jumps) and/or allows Sprinting, then there should be no issue for the most part. Having high KPS teammates may cause problems however (can't hit an enemy if there are no enemies), but with full mobility this should be manageable for the most part, especially on a base-counter phase. Without full mobility however, those high KPS teammates will likely prevent Inaros from activating his self revive mechanic more frequently than they would with it. Slightly sad about the lack of change on this ability. A more reliable blind, or at least an indication of a blind, would be vastly appreciated. Of course, "largely unchanged" doesn't mean "unchanged", so perhaps that is simply unlisted here. Additionally, the minimal True Damage this ability inflicts is functionally useless. I would personally like to see it removed, as it provides nothing to Inaros himself, and has minimal effect as a Subsumed Ability. Of course, while it functionally adds nothing, it doesn't really take anything either, so there's snot really a need to do anything about it. EDIT : @Mayhem-Ivory Has brought to my attention that this does, in fact, actively take something away, in that the True Damage DoT triggers Marked For Death, preventing Desiccation Finishers from dealing AoE Damage when paired with this Helminth ability. Therefore I am changing my opinion here from "not really a need to change" to "please change, it is more of a hindrance than a help". Granted, this is, as even they state, a rather niche use, but I argue that it has a more viable use than the minimalistic DoT (and even lower heal) in regards to its functionality on Inaros himself, which should be prioritised over the Subsume viability of Desiccation, wherein the consistent heal of 2HP/s per enemy may actually be helpful. How exactly will this function as a Railjack ability? A cone of conditional blind? Or would it be a more interesting implementation, such as clogging engines if having correct targeting (with the same mechanic as the base ability's current blind)? Okay, first change is good. Devour was overly clunky, and slowed gameplay drastically. I mean, it could be beneficial in Endurance Defense, locking the last enemy of a wave in an unkillable trap for as long as it took for the Defense Target to regenerate, but that was basically the only use it had, and their are other (better) ways to play Defense that relying on a between-wave heal. An increased movement and animation is wonderful, as it did feel punishing (though not exclusively for this reason). The invulnerability is also a nice touch, and I'm guessing is the reason for the extremely low duration (I think it was four seconds) on the ability. Removing it's channelled function is also a nice change. It might have some impact on Arcane choice (if anyone was running [Arcane Intention] that is), but I don't see that as anything close to a problem giving the trade-off. Being an attraction rather than a repulsion is a wonderful change. Especially with the Ground Finisher synergy which pairs with his passive for very reliable heals, pairing with the innate healing of Sandstorm itself (though I'm uncertain as to how good of a heal that will be, even if it looked fairly good in the clip). A question I have is "how long will the enemies be prone/open to Ground Finishers?". The clip had them prone for 3 seconds before the last was killed with a Finisher, so I'm guessing it's around the 3-4 second mark, which is more than sufficient. Splitting his previous fourth wasn't what I pictured from this rework, but I can certainly see the benefits to it. Providing it's own GUI is great, as trying to track your various buffs can be problematic, especially given the integration of [Negation Swarm]. Altering this from being a full-body animation to a two-handed animation (which is certainly what it looks like) is a great change, and honestly how it probably should have been, but this is an old frame, and the game was far less mobile back then. Scaling. Oh good god, he finally has scaling armor. And it's buffed too! Oh glorious days. That said, I probably would have gone with a dual-scaling mechanic of Armor + Strength, wherein the base effect of the ability is determined by his Armor Value, to give the ability better scaling on already defensively-focused builds. Of course, that's probably biased because I have an Umbral Inaros, so take it with a grain of sand. Integrating [Negation Swarm] has upsides and downsides. The main upside being the addition of a mod-slot on his build. The downside is that, if you weren't using the augment, you will now start losing your additional armor. Of course, that encourages player interaction, but includes an aspect of micro-managing that some players might not appreciate. Overall however, I see this as a net-positive. That said, this depends on just how much armor is lost when negating a Status Effect, whether that depletion is affected by mods, and how long the Status Immunity it provides lasts for. Okay, so the health cost is solely restricted to the defensive side. That's probably a good thing for Inaros' usage stats, though this ability will now be functionally spammable with some builds. Which, honestly, isn't the worst thing, given that this is an armor stripping ability (technically). It does kind of force Inaros into running with 2 Emerald Archon Shards if he wants a full armor strip though (but again, not the worst thing). Health-Scaling damage is nice. The fact that it's entirely unaffected by Ability Strength is slightly disappointing given that the defensive side scales with it, but it's still decent. It should probably also be dual-scaling (Health + Strength), but maybe that would result in too high a DPS. Sand Kavats are interesting, though their utility would be dependant on how exactly they function and what their stats are. And, of course, the AI. And on to the augments. I like [Desiccation's Curse], though I'm curious about a few things regarding it. Firstly, does this allow a spawning of up to the maximum number of Sand Kavats (five), solely through the use of this ability (instead of being three for Scarab Swarm and two for Desiccation)? Secondly, do they still apply Scarab Swarm if you have Subsumed over said ability? [Elemental Sandstorm] is unchanged. I'm somewhat sad about this, as I was hoping it would be expanded upon to draw elements from Inaros' entire loadout (a fever dream, I know), especially given that his melee works best with Finisher viability (for his passive), which takes up mod-slots. It would probably be fun to turn this into a Heat-Nuke though, especially with [Archon Vitality], though the loss of triple-umbra may make this less used. Either way he is able to function as a self-primer, which could be good. Though, that said, there are still plenty of viable synergies I can think of. Now that I think about it (and this is more the augment itself and should function even before the update), does this benefit from the Decrees in Duviri? Specifically, Venomous Touch, and Smoldering Strike. UPDATE : Checked it with Smoldering Strike, which does indeed apply (pre-Dante at least). I have not checked it with Venomous Touch, nor the two in tandem. I imagine it would only apply if your next melee hit would apply it, and would factor in as a mod (and have very heavy weighting), allowing you to control when it triggered, but I have yet to test it. [Negation Armor] should be fun. True Death Prevention is great for non-death modes, and Inaros already has a counter to the downside of this in the form of Sandstorm. I am curious if re-casting Scarab Shell before the Slash-proc applies would negate it (if you even can cast it before it applies that is), as well the actual mechanic of the slash proc. Is it a single tick of fatal damage, or is it a few ticks that will kill you if you don't work around it? If so, would [Rapid Resilience] make it survivable? Or even [Adaptation] or [Shock Absorbers]. Also, is it prevented by [Arcane Deflection]?

Yes, I am aware of this. If you read back a little bit however, you'd see that this isn't viable for me personally. That, of course, should have no effect on anything, but there are players that are functionally forced to play Solo, often due to poor connection, and some who prefer it. You are correct here. I wasn't a fan of the Helminth's Ability Subsuming function upon its introduction, and didn't use it until a few months after it. Heck, I still don't have every frame subsumed, including some of the "meta" subsumes, such as Gauss. However, I have to correct something here. "... is more damaging than losing a fundamentally unbalanced mechanic". You are not losing a "fundamentally unbalanced mechanic". You are going from an very potent (beyond the reasonable expectation of capability) "unbalanced mechanic" to a woefully insufficient one. That is my problem with the change. They want to balance an ability amidst a broken system, and decide to do so by making it an option that nobody will be chosing. If they want the high-pick rate abilities to be picked less, driving more people to pick Roar (which is significantly more used than Eclipse) instead is certainly not achieving that. That is why I am saying the Solar Eclipse needs an increase for its Helminth version. Or, alternatively, Roar needs a debuff. I am just aware that one of these will receive insane levels of player opposition from all levels of player progress and capability. And yes, introducing certain abilities to the Helminth were mistakes. But, what would you suggest Mirage's subsume be if not Eclipse? I'm genuinely curious. See, the thing is that, for the most part, I actually agree with you. The only difference is that you seem to believe that the best way to achieve this is by making Mirage the only frame in the game that gets any actual use out of the ability. Nor that you want her to get significantly more out of it, but essentially have her have no subsume ability at all (because that's basically what the change will do). Mirage receives the buff at more than 6.5x the strength of the Helminth ability with the proposal. I'm simply arguing that that discrepancy should be reduced by increasing the Diminished version. The Lunar Eclipse is a pipe dream (as everyone knows its not going to get a 90% DR ability on the Helminth, especially one that is so easy to achieve). I assume you're referring to the augment here? And yeah, that was stupid. But that happened because it was affected by the augment, not the base ability, since the augment doesn't get diminished. If they had reworked the augment to have scaling based on the actual stays of Null Star, and altered the helminth version, then they could have achieved the same effect without affecting Nova. But they either couldn't figure out how to do it or simply didn't want to, hence the universal nerf. They have already provided a diminished effect for Eclipse. It's simply too strong of a nerf for an ability they claim they want to have "less" usage (as opposed to "no" usage). I'm not saying the Helminth version should be equal to the original. I'm not even saying it should be half as good. I'm saying it should be a quarter, or a fifth as good. I'm...not sure I understand what you're saying here, honestly. I assume you mean "activate damage buff and shoot", but I actually want this to be good defensively too. I just don't think a 75% DR is worth an ability slot, especially given the frames I had been intended on putting this on prior to the numbers (such as Inaros, who would benefit from both effects). Now, if the ability was also affected by energy color or something (a bright energy color would increase the Solar buff, whereas a dark color would increase the Lunar buff, similar to Equinox' form shifts colors), and that would allow you to have either a 50% Damage increase but a 75% DR, or a 30% Damage Increase but a 90% DR, I would say its worth the trade. Heck, if the numbers were 30% Damage and 90% DR, I would agree that the strength of the defensive buff warrants the lack of damage from its offensive buff, as that 30% is still good. It's not Roar good was the issue, and only because the defensive side is lacking. One of the numbers needs to go up, and I know it's not going to be the DR, even though that's the one I'd be happier about.

Im pretty sure they want it to be ... you know, killable, so probably not. Would definitely be nice though.