Railjack on-call crew for solo suggestion

[ThePredicament]

On-call crew members should not automatically withdraw the timer counts down to zero while playing solo or alone. This will make clearing starcharts in empty regions of the map a little easier and eases some of the problems solo players get into while playing higher level missions. Especially compared to having two or more allies out. While RJ crew members have infinite ammo, their weapons are still dependent on the player's ability to build weapons and they do not have frame powers like specters.

If playing an open game and someone joins in and the timer does end up being zero, then they withdraw right away. If there is still some time left, then on-call will act regularly.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Its already too easy,

To have permanent helper till death , you should invest in specters.

But we know that the rj crew can use op weapons, so their draw back is the timer. Since afk/ macro play disease is a thing perma solo rj crew is a no go, since they would enable /encourage afk play more.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

This would be one of the fastest way to get On Call Crew nerfed. If you have them out longer? Their damage and stats will be tuned to compensate, so they'll essentially just become Spectres. You also want to be careful how you frame such points as well. Like the idea "they are dependent on players ability to build weapons"... well yeah, that applies to players and the star chart in general. Players who know how to mod better will have an easier and more effective time, therefore players who learn, test, follow guides, get community help, consider their builds, are rewarded. So using that as a selling point or argument can end up being counter productive/intuitive. 

On Call Crew are very potent as they are. Personally? I think they are fine as is, but I also see many players argue that they need to be nerfed (though sometimes some of their arguments seem more out of spite), but and again personally, I would rather them not just turn into a Spectre. Being shorter term, more powerful versions is a decent compromise and way to distinguish them in my eyes. 

[ThePredicament]

On 2024-03-21 at 7:09 PM, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Its already too easy,

Subjective.

What actually isn't is the fact that people complain about not having people to clear out the outer edges of the starchart with, so there's that.

On 2024-03-21 at 7:09 PM, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

To have permanent helper till death , you should invest in specters.

But we know that the rj crew can use op weapons, so their draw back is the timer. Since afk/ macro play disease is a thing perma solo rj crew is a no go, since they would enable /encourage afk play more.

This argument doesn't even make sense. The weapons and mods are limited to whatever the player has available, it would only be OP at endgame where an endgame player wouldn't even need to have assistance. A newer player or even a midgame player is most likely not going to have endgame gear and even if they did, a crewman will still not be more powerful than an actual player with a Frame in the team and absolutely nothing when it comes to two or more. It's basically just a clone of the player without powers, not as beefy, and with dumb somewhat cheaty ai holding the same weapon.

As for people that afk, it's 100% better with them going solo and afking with a crewmate than leeching off a team.

On 2024-03-21 at 7:55 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

This would be one of the fastest way to get On Call Crew nerfed. If you have them out longer? Their damage and stats will be tuned to compensate, so they'll essentially just become Spectres. You also want to be careful how you frame such points as well. Like the idea "they are dependent on players ability to build weapons"... well yeah, that applies to players and the star chart in general. Players who know how to mod better will have an easier and more effective time, therefore players who learn, test, follow guides, get community help, consider their builds, are rewarded. So using that as a selling point or argument can end up being counter productive/intuitive. 

On Call Crew are very potent as they are. Personally? I think they are fine as is, but I also see many players argue that they need to be nerfed (though sometimes some of their arguments seem more out of spite), but and again personally, I would rather them not just turn into a Spectre. Being shorter term, more powerful versions is a decent compromise and way to distinguish them in my eyes.

How does learning to build a weapon to give to a crewmate suddenly become "counter productive/intuitive?" People will still need to learn how to build, test, follow guides, get community help, consider builds, etc. Actually, how is joining a game with a player or two rolling the map with meta gear "productive/intuitive" to all that? Should we not play with other people then?

Why would they even need to be nerfed? Do their weapons get bonuses that make them do more damage than the player that built them using the same weapon? Is the damage enough to compensate for missing three other frames, especially in SP where the spawn rates are adjusted for full teams or even in midgame where they have midgame weapons build with midgame mods? Would be better than another player with an incarnon form Phenmor or Laetum?

On-call crew being more "powerful" than Cosmic Specters because of the mods in the gun is the fault of the Cosmic Specters' extremely outdated design rather than the on-call itself.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

3 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

What actually isn't is the fact that people complain about not having people to clear out the outer edges of the starchart with, so there's that.

Still specters do better job than on calls on normal star chart. More so in situation where you summon vapor specter, roller specter, osprey specter, ancient specter. And oncall on top to be the side dmg dealer. 

 

3 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

This argument doesn't even make sense. The weapons and mods are limited to whatever the player has available, it would only be OP at endgame where an endgame player wouldn't even need to have assistance. A newer player or even a midgame player is most likely not going to have endgame gear and even if they did, a crewman will still not be more powerful than an actual player with a Frame in the team and absolutely nothing when it comes to two or more. It's basically just a clone of the player without powers, not as beefy, and with dumb somewhat cheaty ai holding the same weapon.

As for people that afk, it's 100% better with them going solo and afking with a crewmate than leeching off a team.

The problem is that we need to view from game side.

If system allows any sort of afk play, it has to have limits. So oncall be 10 min cooldown, when it dies or time runs out is ok, since he can use OP modded weps.

People as soon as mr5 can get acces to zarr/bramma/ogris  once they kill liches with that weapon. Mod with base mods, then upgrade to prime/galvanize variations and you have endgame tier. So over all crewmates are good as is, and you should use them as assist in tough position , not rely on them doing mission partly in your place. But of course people would prefer zarr spammer on call w/o limits.

Since missions can be done solo, with out help of specters and on calls having things made easier isnt necesary.

Afk play should not be encouraged in any way shape of form, its already disease as is with macro plays... And have been cause for nerfs , because decent ammount were afk macro playing. So rest had to suffer.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

How does learning to build a weapon to give to a crewmate suddenly become "counter productive/intuitive?"

 

A misunderstanding, so please allow me to clarify. In the abstract, buffing the duration on On Call Crew will only lead to a nerf to On Call Crew in other ways. So in practice its unlikely to happen. Its a bit like asking that Fulmin do infinite damage. Then trying to justify that by explaining "well, some AOE weapons already one shot groups of enemies, if you mod them well, and so would have a higher KPM than the Fulmin anyway, so it doesn't really matter" except that doesn't account for other factors that would become issues if Fulmin did infinite damage. 

Then its like someone reading what I just wrote and saying "how does buffing the Fulmin suddenly invalidate certain game mechanics" well, no, not that, the other context and implications naturally. Its the idea thats counter productive, like a Monkey Paw. 

 

5 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

Actually, how is joining a game with a player or two rolling the map with meta gear "productive/intuitive" to all that? Should we not play with other people then?

 

I really hope this is more sincere misunderstanding that attempts to frame others input in such a way that reduces them, but no. There is a difference to DE between actual players engaging in the game, and their effectiveness being the result of that engagement, to players having automated tools that can replicate that experience, the same way. Actual players have many inherent differences to players automating systems. There is no suggestion or implication to not playing with other people. Rather encouragement. 

 

5 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

Why would they even need to be nerfed? Do their weapons get bonuses that make them do more damage than the player that built them using the same weapon? Is the damage enough to compensate for missing three other frames, especially in SP where the spawn rates are adjusted for full teams or even in midgame where they have midgame weapons build with midgame mods? Would be better than another player with an incarnon form Phenmor or Laetum?

 

Yes, relatively speaking they are more power, but not to players. To many other types of games automated AI copies, facsimile, CC. Like again Spectres, Wukong Clone, Nyx's Mind Control, Chroma's Effigy, Protea's Turrets. So on. On Call Crew can kill/dispatch Acolytes with relative ease and speed. As well as Eximus and many other types of enemies. Except they are only around for a limited time, and they have a decent cool down. 

Is the damage enough to compensate for missing three other frames? Well, thats the thing, in Warframe there are so many variables involved in hypothetical maximum output by a team, and minimal output, that all the inbetween is deep and wide. So much so it can be used as justification for many many things. Like there can be some seasoned knowledgable veterans of the game, with Saryn and Incarnon weapons who could potentially out KPM a whole other team of players with less knowledge and "inferior" gear selection, in a SP Survival. So framing it only in that context isn't the best. Since thats not necessarily the only context and variables around decisions around the games balancing mechanics.

Its a bit like the idea that Energy Pizzas should be free and infinite, because Dispensary doesn't cost resources aside from Energy, but since it gives Energy you can in theory have free and infinite Energy, and therefore. Well, there's just more to it than that. 

To DE, absolutely they would rather prefer another actual person and player with an Incarnon Phenmor and Laetum playing alongside a potentially struggling player on a Steel Path mission, rather than the original player having an On Call Crew that could enable AFK playing and speedily killing the Acolyte when it shows up. I mean, it can actually already do the latter, but they will be dismissed and on cool down, but the time the second Acolyte shows up. So to DE its not necessarily about "winning" but engagement.

 

5 hours ago, ThePredicament said:

On-call crew being more "powerful" than Cosmic Specters because of the mods in the gun is the fault of the Cosmic Specters' extremely outdated design rather than the on-call itself.

 

If thats your subjective belief on the matter, sure. I just don't necessarily thinks DE agrees with you on that, nor is going to "update" the design to match your belief.

I get the impression you feel strongly about this, and thats totally fair and valid. I am not here as some antagonistic trying to rain on your parade, or anything. I just don't think the reasons you have offered as to why this should be changed, are that persuasive or consider the potential for exploiting the tool, for automated gameplay. Again, also counter productive. It would be like if DE decided to revert the Wukong nerfs, and then actually buffed Wukong Clone, by giving you another Clone that did triple damage. People would immediately realise that was a bad idea and the Wukong would be nerfed again, possibly harder than before. 

There are probably going to be people who read your thread and think "see, this is why On Call Spectres should be nerfed, because people use it as a crutch" because that sentiment already exists (not myself though, I think they are alright as they are now. Don't think they need buffs or nerfs). 

All the best. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I don't get your reasoning.

If you've done enough railjack to get a on call crew member, you should be good enough at the game to not "require" a bottomless ammunition aimbot that follows you around to clear niche/unpopular missions / the star chart.

Like others said before, specters can already offer alot on that matter, as they scale with current enemy level. You're not even restricted to a single specter either, you can make up an entire squad of these things, you get one tenno specter and a bunch of random eximus units from syndicates, with Clem as well, on top of which you can add the on call crewmate.

 

If you need your missions to be made easier to clear them, you in fact actually don't. Learning newer stuff about the game and gaining experience over time will take care of the mission difficulty. Just like how you can learn to mod for raw toxin damage to cheese 95% of the corpus unit pool because their shields don't protect them against it.

The game does a poor job at being intuitive for newer tenno that want to learn stuff outside having a daily routine of opening the wiki, but if it took just one second to tell players to hover the text on the left side of the upgrade/modding screen, people would have a much easier time getting around stuff.

 

Buffing the on-call crew function wouldn't help. Nor does it help with star chart nodes being left in the dust once you're done with them.

[ThePredicament]

11 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

A misunderstanding

Nah.

I'm gonna be honest with you, I only picked out that because the rest of the stuff you said, mostly presumptuous, was bunk to begin with.

Love how you speak in behalf of DE though.

5 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If you've done enough railjack to get a on call crew member, you should be good enough at the game to not "require" a bottomless ammunition aimbot that follows you around to clear niche/unpopular missions / the star chart.

Like others said before, specters can already offer alot on that matter, as they scale with current enemy level. You're not even restricted to a single specter either, you can make up an entire squad of these things, you get one tenno specter and a bunch of random eximus units from syndicates, with Clem as well, on top of which you can add the on call crewmate.

You can get an on-call crew member as early as mr3, so no. Not everyone is going to be good enough at the game to not "require" aid for clearing empty starchart areas.

What you seem to be saying is that there should be a limit imposed on what can be summoned and you're partially right, but if somehow having an on call crew to be a companion is breaking the game, more than having another person or two join, then there's something inherently wrong with the systems mechanics, outside of bypassing the damage attenuation.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

8 minutes ago, ThePredicament said:

Nah.

I'm gonna be honest with you, I only picked out that because the rest of the stuff you said, mostly presumptuous, was bunk to begin with.

Love how you speak in behalf of DE though.

 

If you want to try and frame it that way, sure.

Except I am not really interested in the whole "I don't like what this online anonymous internet person said, so I am going to accuse it of being presumptuous bunk", nothing in my original post or replies was hostile, insulting or an attack on your character. So I am not really sure the defensiveness on your part. 

Nothing in my post is an attempt to speak on behalf of DE, rather its just pointing out and referring to their own statements and reasoning behind similar mechanics. I can be extremely sarcastic/snarky too, if you'd like? I usually like to extend good faith first, and well self deprecating sarcasm I also tend to enjoy more, this is after all just a game, and you might also just be a random anonymous online person, but I am sure you have better things to do than the whole typical internet passive aggressive thing to people who don't lavish false praise and agreement on your every idea. 

 

 

[ThePredicament]

For someone that said "all the best" to signal your exit out of this topic, you surely do have a lot to say.

19 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

If you want to try and frame it that way, sure.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

8 minutes ago, ThePredicament said:

For someone that said "all the best" to signal your exit out of this topic, you surely do have a lot to say.

 

Indeed. What can I say, I like talking about the game. Also when I say all the best, thats just my way of saying I hope you have a good day. Its not announcing my exit. Its like take care. Or good luck. They can be temporary in nature. For example my first post was more than a few days ago. For all I know, your next reply might be in a few days. 

Hope that clarifies, cheers! 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 15 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

You can get an on-call crew member as early as mr3, so no.

MR3, except that's not the whole picture, that's also Command Intrinsic rank 9 to unlock the on-call feature. That's 511 RJ intrinsics points spent in just that category assuming you would sink all of them in that, and not the rest of the Intrinsics. That alone in terms of mastery points puts you nearly at MR6.

Il y a 15 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

Not everyone is going to be good enough at the game to not "require" aid for clearing empty starchart areas.

So? Give them an aimbot companion that can outdps them? I don't think so. A rank 8/10 Serration and any sort of elemental combination on any weapon in your arsenal can take you up to the last of void missions.

Not only that, but if people aren't good enough at the game to not require aid for clearing empty starchart areas, they would already not be good enough at the game to deal with even just saturn proxima enemies inside objectives.

Il y a 15 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

What you seem to be saying is that there should be a limit imposed on what can be summoned and you're partially right, but if somehow having an on call crew to be a companion is breaking the game, more than having another person or two join, then there's something inherently wrong with the systems mechanics, outside of bypassing the damage attenuation.

There has to be a limit and that's a hard fact. What do you even mean "partially right"? Specters already can break the game and they don't even use mods. Mods are this game's source of power/scaling. Slap it on a specter then it's like it's specter on steroids. That's what the on-call function is. And you'd want it to have no drawbacks nor limits just because some MR3 can't defend a mobile defense objective alone? That's not how the game works. Nor how it should.

Everything that needed to be said was there :

Le 22/03/2024 à 03:09, AntifreezeUnder0 a dit :

Its already too easy,

To have permanent helper till death , you should invest in specters.

But we know that the rj crew can use op weapons, so their draw back is the timer. Since afk/ macro play disease is a thing perma solo rj crew is a no go, since they would enable /encourage afk play more.

But you refuse to see their point.

Players should not be able to clear content if they are not good enough for it. That's what games are about. It's like being infuriated about not getting past the first pipe in the first mario game just because you actively don't want to jump.

[ThePredicament]

9 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

MR3, except that's not the whole picture, that's also Command Intrinsic rank 9 to unlock the on-call feature. That's 511 RJ intrinsics points spent in just that category assuming you would sink all of them in that, and not the rest of the Intrinsics. That alone in terms of mastery points puts you nearly at MR6.

And? Having a full crew for solo RJ would be the first thing anyone should do and that's already more than half way there. Anyone with a clan

9 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

So? Give them an aimbot companion that can outdps them?

"That's not the whole picture" -> hyper focuses on the damage dealt instead of everything else.

9 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Players should not be able to clear content if they are not good enough for it. That's what games are about.

Versus having a whole team of players nuking the whole map clearing it for them instead?

What's hilarious about this whole thing is that ONE OTHER RANDOM PLAYER with a rounded out loadout and a smidge of skill would be a better companion to clear levels than a crewmate with, most likely, the same gun the player is using. Not only that, crew member target acquisition is on point but the way they handle their weapons is abysmal, missing some shots and getting mostly bodyshots at 5m, sometimes less like with the Acceltra P.

9 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

But you refuse to see their point.

Because "it's already too easy" is an absolute trash excuse for having a lopsided experience when it comes to playing with a full team versus playing solo, where people are either forced into it at the edges of the starchart or they voluntarily run solo so they don't get rushed while exploring. Do you sit there and watch a person as they explore tiles? Do you sit there and babysit them while looking for collectibles?

I guess if you have that kind of mentality where you think EVERYONE is going to use it to go solo and somehow clear the starchart with it by abusing it or if you don't have the self control to NOT rely on it, this would be apocalyptic but do you even see people summoning all their specters into a game to AFK? I've never seen anything beyond ancients and maybe even a osprey, have never even seen a frame specter and I've been playing this game for more than a decade. Besides, why would you even care? If you don't use it, you'd NEVER EVER EVER EVER see it because it would only apply to solo games.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 7 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

And? Having a full crew for solo RJ would be the first thing anyone should do and that's already more than half way there. Anyone with a clan

Yep, still doesn't solve anything regarding getting your cheeks clapped in boarding objectives, which the AI will not clear for you.

 

Il y a 7 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

"That's not the whole picture" -> hyper focuses on the damage dealt instead of everything else.

That's the only thing On-Call crewmates provide, unless you specifically give them a primer or whatever (though that'd be a waste).

This is what you said when opening your thread :

 

Le 22/03/2024 à 00:39, ThePredicament a dit :

This will make clearing starcharts in empty regions of the map a little easier and eases some of the problems solo players get into while playing higher level missions. Especially compared to having two or more allies out.

So go on, tell me, what "problems" do they encounter? Being overwhelmed because their gear is garbage, poorly modded and they were carried by their allies this whole time? Give me a break. Higher level missions equate to higher difficulty.

 

Le 22/03/2024 à 00:39, ThePredicament a dit :

While RJ crew members have infinite ammo, their weapons are still dependent on the player's ability to build weapons and they do not have frame powers like specters.

Yeah guess what was nerfed on Celestial Twin and the Duality augment.

Il y a 8 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

crew member target acquisition is on point but the way they handle their weapons is abysmal, missing some shots and getting mostly bodyshots at 5m, sometimes less like with the Acceltra P.

Thank god they have at least one flaw, which is using the spaghetti code AI we know and love.

Il y a 8 heures, ThePredicament a dit :

Because "it's already too easy" is an absolute trash excuse for having a lopsided experience when it comes to playing with a full team versus playing solo, where people are either forced into it at the edges of the starchart or they voluntarily run solo so they don't get rushed while exploring. Do you sit there and watch a person as they explore tiles? Do you sit there and babysit them while looking for collectibles?

I guess if you have that kind of mentality where you think EVERYONE is going to use it to go solo and somehow clear the starchart with it by abusing it or if you don't have the self control to NOT rely on it, this would be apocalyptic but do you even see people summoning all their specters into a game to AFK? I've never seen anything beyond ancients and maybe even a osprey, have never even seen a frame specter and I've been playing this game for more than a decade. Besides, why would you even care? If you don't use it, you'd NEVER EVER EVER EVER see it because it would only apply to solo games.

Are you being delusional or are you trying to defend your point out of sheer bad faith?

"Do you sit there and watch a person as they explore tiles? Do you sit there and babysit them while looking for collectibles?"

I have done so already out of boredom, but that's irrelevant to the topic.

"Because "it's already too easy" is an absolute trash excuse for having a lopsided experience when it comes to playing with a full team versus playing solo, where people are either forced into it at the edges of the starchart or they voluntarily run solo so they don't get rushed while exploring."

If you're having a lopsided experience when it comes to playing with a full team versus playing solo, it shows just how little you were contributing to the team in the first place. Being carried is a horrible experience, but hey, what do I know, Revenant Prime is the highest usage in the game. Which leads to your next point :

"I guess if you have that kind of mentality where you think EVERYONE is going to use it to go solo and somehow clear the starchart with it by abusing it or if you don't have the self control to NOT rely on it, this would be apocalyptic "

People will actively look for the next broken thing to abuse and render the game trivial. That's the main reason people wanting to never worry about damage taken use Revenant or his Prime counterpart. There has never been a day where I've done all 5 of my SP dailies where revenant has not shown at least once in completely random squads ever since Mesmer Skin was buffed and popularized by content creators.

"Besides, why would you even care? If you don't use it, you'd NEVER EVER EVER EVER see it because it would only apply to solo games."

I care because it has consequences beyond your suggested usecase. People playing solo with the use of illegal afk macros have been a consistent plague to this game, breaking it with Wukong in the past. I don't understand how you do not see all of this despite having played this game for a decade. Was your decade burried in a cave unaware of anything going on in the game?

 

Lastly, and going back to what I was talking about : Wukong. Having an endless On-Call RJ crew member specifically to handle solo play is basically asking to have Celestial Twin on every frame. Except a better unnerfed version of it, where it has specifically the gun that you want, with all the modded damage that you want it to have, even coming with extra boosts of its own if it's an Elite one. Not only that, but you can also add a damage multiplier to them thanks to their own bonus points system. I don't understand why you want to bribe DE into effectively canceling out one of their most problematic balancing flaw that took them years to look into and fix, much less why you justify it with "oh but people can't clear this node no one cares about when they're forced to play solo", that doesn't make any sense, nor does it fit into the scale of the chaos your suggestion would generate.

[ThePredicament]

3 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

-snip-

It's hilarious and shows how terrible your argument is when you keep flip flopping between "IT'S TOO POWERFUL IT'LL MAKE YOU A TERRIBLE PLAYER!" and "It's garbage and there are better alternatives (that no one actually uses) and won't even help that much..." then compare it to a skill that can be recast right away, instead of just killed and have a long cooldown.