[Resolved] Question about Lavos "Valence Formation" elemental merging order rules.

[DimkaTsv]

Problem is such:

Let's say that i have weapon with innate basic elemental damage. I use single basic elemental mod with this weapon. And i use single basic element imbuement with augment. 
In process of figuring out rules i parsed every combination (except ones with cold innate weapons as currently don't have such at hand), and in general it is pretty consistent that imbuement prioritizes combination with modded elemental damage, freeing base weapon element as additional proc.

Aka Toxin base + Electricity mod + Heat imbuement ==> Heat forced + Radiation high chance + Toxin low chance (due to weighting shift). 
Or Electricity base + Toxin mod + Heat imbuement ==> Heat forced + Gas high chance + Electricity low chance.

But there are two major inconsistencies.

1. Heat innate damage completely ignores these rules, as it always combines first. Moreover. It will also ALWAYS combine with modded elemental damage as priority, and not imbued element. 
For example (incorrect interactions): 

Цитата

Heat base + Electricity modded + Toxin imbue = radiation (unexpected) + forced toxin 
[expected toxin forced + corrosion + heat remnant]

Heat base + Electricity modded + Cold imbue = radiation (unexpected) + forced cold
[expected cold forced + magnet + heat remnant]

As you can see all of these combinations produced radiation, instead of corrosion and magnet respectively. Reason for this is that innate heat prioritized merging with modded element over imbuement. 
These four samples are all following expected behavior, but only because heat is not innate element of the weapon. 

Цитата

Toxin base + Heat modded + Cold imbue = cold forced + blast + toxin remnant
Toxin base + Cold modded + Heat imbue = heat forced + blast + toxin remnant

Toxin base + Heat modded + Electricity imbue = electricity forced + radiation + toxin remnant
Toxin base + Electricity modded + Heat imbue = heat forced + radiation + toxin remnant

2. Cold base and Electricity modded will merge into Magnet damage, unless heat is involved, then heat forcefully prioritize merging with modded elemental damage.

Цитата

Example:
Electricity base + Cold modded + Toxin imbue = forced toxin + Magnet (unexpected)
[expected toxin forced + viral + electricity remnant]

But if cold is not modded but imbued, it works properly:

Electricity base + Toxin modded+ Cold imbue = forced cold + viral + electricity remnant

I assume if i did cold base + electricity modded + heat imbue, i would've got radiation + forced heat, but won't make guesses before i test it out (cold based weapon in process of making)

 

But at the same time when heat is involved it takes complete priority:

Цитата

[as expected] Electricity base + Cold modded + Heat imbue = forced heat + blast + electricity remnant
[as expected] Electricity base + Heat modded + Cold imbue = forced cold + blast + electricity remnant

Heat base + Cold modded + Electricity imbue = Blast (unexpected, look issue 1) + forced electricity
[expected forced electricity + magnet + heat remnant]
Heat base + Electricity modded + Cold imbue = Radiation (unexpected, look issue 1) + forced cold
[expected forced cold + magnet + heat remnant]
 

 

Main thing is that i want to know if such elemental merging priority rules are bug, or intended behavior. For example priorities for heat damage merging seems to be way off mark. 

I have excel table of combination tests. And only noticeably broken things, based on what i saw are ones that i mention here. But if someone wants to help me with innate cold weaponry, i would accept your input. 

-----------------

Main reason why i asked this question, is that based on what i managed to scrup i should have ability to make this combination:

heat base + toxin modded + electricity imbue = electricity forced + corrosion + heat remnant. 

But i freaking cannot because heat ignores merging rules! So i get [gas + electricity] instead... And that's it!

Edited March 29 by DimkaTsv
Issue was resolved. Renamed to remove confusion.

[ZenCrimson]

Heat isn't Ignoring Merging rules, rather you're missing a piece of information in the HCET rule, think of it like an extra four mod slots under your eight, as you know elements mix top right to bottom left across then down, just imagine an extra four slots in the order of Heat, Cold, Electric and Toxin.

all Elemental Innate's, Progenitor bonus', and ability additions from the like of Thermal exchange and the new Lavos augment go into those four extra imaginary slots. 

so rather than the order of Heat + Toxin + Electricity adding the ability element and modded first, then the base being left behind, the game treats it as Toxin in slot 1-8, Heat in slot 9 which it merges for Gas, and then electric in slot 11.

If we use a Toxin and electric mod, then the game sees have corrosive in slots 1-8 and heat is left to stand alone, and the electric is added to the corrosive value instead.

so, with this information you can see why Heat always mixes as a priority with whatever solo modded element you had, then the ability element applies after, because Heat is first in the HCET.

[DimkaTsv]

2 часа назад, ZenCrimson сказал:

so rather than the order of Heat + Toxin + Electricity adding the ability element and modded first, then the base being left behind, the game treats it as Toxin in slot 1-8, Heat in slot 9 which it merges for Gas, and then electric in slot 11.

[SPOILER: REDACTED]

Спойлер

Then why only cold innate + electricity and every heat innate broken?

I can properly merge toxin innate with modded elemental damage even though there are cold and electricity after that.

Toxin base // Cold modded // Electricity imbue = Magnet + forced Electricity + toxin remnant
Electricity // Cold // Toxin imbue = Magnet + forced toxin [broken, expected viral + forced toxin + electricity remnant]

Unless it is HECT and not HCET.
Then you do make sense, as data becomes aligned... And then based on HECT theory Cold innate + Electricity modded + Toxin imbued should give me Corrosion + forced toxin + cold remnant...

Yeah, HECT seems to align more based on info.
So Heat+Toxin+Electricity ==> Heat/Electricity/Toxin ==> Radiation + Toxin. 
---------------
Except, now that i double checked, this principle also doesn't always work for some reason.
How do you explain these combinations? Believe me, i tried everything i could to describe them logically, but rule didn't properly formed in my head. You may be at least partially correct. But i cannot apply HECT or HCET rule to these combinations... I would've saw tendency of always combining with specific elements first based on electric innate according HCET (or HECT) rule. But they just don't follow. 

Electricity innate + Cold modded + Toxin imbued ==> Electricity / Cold / Toxin [or Cold + Electricity + Toxin, again, shouldn't matter.] 
But here i do get toxin full separation. [aka Magnet + forced toxin]

Electricity innate + Toxin modded + Heat imbued ==> Heat / Electricity / Toxin
Drum rolls... Gas + heat forced + electricity remnant... How? 

Soo... Is it really HECT rule? Or am i mistaken somewhere?
It does explain heat innate, i admit. But it doesn't work as smooth for electricity innate.

Or wait... Now that i am triple thinking, you may have intended to convey slightly different situation.

Basically any modded damage (or combination of it) will be placed into absract slot (0) for elemental damage (not mods, just abstracted elemental type slot). Then goes innate and imbuement with order based on it's type [Heat(1) - Cold(2) - Electricity(3) - Toxin(4)]. And i just mixed them up in one pile... 
So by this logic Electricity innate + Toxin modded + Heat imbued ==> does not interpret as Heat(1) / Electricity(3) / Toxin(4), but as Toxin(0) / Heat(1) / Electricity(3) instead.

Yeah... Now that makes much more sense. 

What an annoying and obscure rule. (especially as heat is first to get cucked). Seems like i really need source of small amount of corrosion damage on my Nepheri. And by no chance i can get just small amount of it, without consequences on status weighting... 

Well, today i learned. When i do remember a lot of stuff about Warframe obscure BS, but this one caught me off guard, as i never actually played with imbuements, so never looked into rules.

Thanks. 

Now... Is must i do something to close topic? Or should is just drown with time? Tbh, probably some person will later stumble on it though googling.
 

Edited March 29 by DimkaTsv