Wishful Thinking: Reworks to some of the Genesis Incarnon forms (and the others get some tweaks)

[Azamagon]

In this thread I'm gonna propose some "what if"-changes to (most of) the Incarnon forms.

Two quick disclaimers:

• I will not go through all the evolutions - that's for another thread (which I've already made in the past). However, there might be some quick mentions of alterations where it makes sense.

• I will only sometimes use numbers, more likely talking about general concepts.

Now, why these suggestions though?

Well, imo, the Incarnon forms sometimes changes up the weapon far too much (Torid, Gorgon, Atomos and Gammacor, for example) and makes their modding really odd. Using Torid as an example, its normal form benefits nicely from fire rate and projectile speed, but its Incarnon form being a beam weapon doesn't need fire rate as much, and it wants beam range (if any), while projectile speed is useless for it.

On top of that, some of them also have augments which really don't fit with their Incarnon form, like the Gorgon for example. Its Metamorphic Magazine augment is truly terrible for the Incarnon due to its very low rate of fire (and high burst damage), whereas the augment fits perfectly for a high rate of fire, like with the base gun.

Meanwhile, weapons like the Boltor has equal modding for both the normal mode and Incarnon mode, which feels very nice in contrast.

So the point of these suggestions is to make Incarnon forms more "Boltor-esque" in regards to their "normal vs Incarnon form" feels. Some are tweaked more, some are tweaked less.

Let's get into it!

 

SOME GENERAL CHANGES:

• Ranged Incarnon charged - Now all of them partially also gain Incarnon charges via bodyshots. How much charge they get on bodyshots depends on the individual weapon, but generally I think a good standard amount would be around a 5th or 6th of what a headshot would give.

• Melee Incarnon chargeup - Now has a chargeup bar just like ranged weapons, which doesn't have a timer, unlike the combo count. Melee Incarnons are still activated with heavy melee attacks, they still require full chargeup to activate, and the chargeup of the meter is still tied to combo count gains - so more combo gain still grants quicker Incarnon bar chargeup. Also, when the melee Incarnon form expires, the current amount of combo points you have will immediately contribute to the next Incarnon charge counter! This means initial combo and/or keeping your combo meter high is still very valuable for quicker reactivations into Incarnon mode.

  • Overall, this just means a massive QoL-bonus to melee Incarnons, reducing the stress to quickly find enemies to be able to enter the Incarnon form before the combo timer runs out.

 

PRIMARY GENESIS WEAPONS:

• Braton - Just a little bit more base rate of fire for the Incarnon mode would be nice. Currently, the base gun has around 10 rate of fire and Incarnon only around 5, so I'd propose around 7 or 8 for the Incarnon form.

• Paris - Could potentially "quickfire" its Incarnon arrows for either less damage or less projectile width. Increased max charge capacity (say, from 20 to 30).

• Latron - This now instead shoots basic hitscan bullets with homing richochet (like Lato, Bronco and Dual Toxocyst). These Incarnon shots would hit a whole bunch harder than the base gun, with similar crit and status stats as its current Incarnon form.

  • The bouncy explosive projectile is a cool effect though, so I moved that effect to a different gun where I felt it fit better. Speaking of which...

• Torid - This Incarnon form now instead uses the bouncy explosive projectiles that the Latron currently uses, but it also leaves lingering toxic clouds everytime it explodes, similar to the base gun! Also, the base damage of the explosions (and clouds, obviously) is now pure Toxin.

  • Sidenote: By leaving clouds behind with every explosion, just like the base gun, its evolutions (namely the crappy multishot one) could potentially deal with some cloud or area bonus instead, tieing the theme of the base gun and the Incarnon form better together too.

• Miter - I think this could stand to have a little bit more Incarnon charge (like, from 20 up to 30-ish).

• Soma - Revamped: No longer shoots like a shotgun in Incarnon form. It now shoots just like the base gun; a fastfiring fully automatic rifle with some windup and with LOTS of ammo, and has 1 homing richochet on hit. This Incarnon form now also has (compared to the base gun) a bit better damage and status chance, and an even higher critchance!

  • I think something like this is more what people would've wanted out of its Incarnon form. I find it really weird that the critchance, in particular, is so low in its current Incarnon form. It just doesn't fit thematically at all with feel of the Soma.

• Burston - A small change: Now always shoots bullets in multiples of 3. It's still fully automatic (or, well, technically it would be auto-burst now), and wouldn't feel all that much different.

  • This is more of a small thematic change, since it would instead technically shoots in bursts, more akin to its name.

• Dread - Same as Paris: Could potentially "quickfire" its Incarnon arrows for either less damage or less projectile width. Increased max charge capacity (say, from 20 to 30).

  • I'd suggest that the Dread and Paris could have different quickfire penalties, for example that the Dread always shoots the same size of the projectile, but the damage is lesser. And then on the Paris it's the opposite, with the damage remaining the same, but the quickfired shot's size is not nearly as wide.

• Gorgon - Another big revamp: Now shoots like a mini-shotgun (more like current Soma/Boltor Incarnon), but with some initial windup just like the base gun has, and obviously also has a plethora of Incarnon ammo.

  • This would fit far better with its base gun's modding style, and it would also work fantastically with its Metamorphic Magazine augment. Its damage per projectile could be slightly lower than the base gun, but the multishot from its shotgun-effect would mean it does more damage overall (and its crit and status effects could be very similar to the base gun as well).

The Boltor, Boar and Strun (arguably) I feel work well enough as they are right now, so I left them as they are. If any changes were to be made to them, I'd maybe say that the Strun's Incarnon form could have some multishot (say, 5, up from 1), but each explosive then only deals 20% of the current damage.

 

SECONDARY GENESIS WEAPONS:

• Lato + Bronco + Kunai + Despair - I think the effects they have are all fine, but I'd increase their Incarnon ammo a bunch. Like, something like double the amount, at least? 24 on Lato and 20 on Bronco/Kunai/Despair just feels far to little, so somewhere between 40 and 60 sounds good to me. The Bronco could also really stand to get way more Incarnon charge per headshot.

• Dual Toxocyst - The "Frenzy" bonus you get upon a headshot is altered: The +150% rate of fire bonus is now instead a flat 1,5 base rof-bonus. That means that it remains exactly the same for the base form, but the Incarnon form benefits considerably less.

  • Incarnon form's rate of fire is 4,5 so it will only be boosted up to 6 with the buff, instead of being boosted up to a whooping 11,25. This makes modding for fire rate (which the base form really wants and benefits from) less extreme and nigh uncontrollable for the already much faster Incarnon form. If this is considered too much of a nerf for the Incarnon form, its base rate of fire could be increased a bit to compensate (Like, 6 at base, and then raised to 7,5 when the Frenzy buff is active, for example).

• Atomos - Big revamp: Now instead shoots an explosive ricochet-beam, just like how the current Torid Incarnon functions. However, it instead has base Heat-damage, naturally.

  • The Torid's beam mechanically fits WAY better on the Atomos, and would make its modding far more sensible.

• Vasto - Quite a massive revamp. Due to the many details I'll provide its changes in a bullet list:

  • It now has way more Incarnon ammo (say, 60, instead of 24) and you gain 2x Incarnon charge per headshot (so, 6 instead of 3).

  • Recoil is slightly lower than the regular form.

  • Damage dropoff is removed.

  • Status chance is the same-ish as the regular mode.

  • Now has a "Quickshot" feature: The aiming reticle / crosshairs is slightly bigger than usual, and if an enemy is in the crosshairs and within 20 meters range, your shots will autoaim at the enemy when you shoot ("Mesa at home", if you will). If the requirements aren't met, it will simply shoot straight forward as normal.

  • Zooming is now available, and zooming will also completely disable the above Quickshot feature. The zoom level is slightly lower than normal though.

    • All of this would make for a far more useable gun, imo.

• Zylok - Tweaked quite heavily, so I will also provide its changes it in a bullet list:

  • Now no longer has a charge-trigger, it instead shoots with a Duplex trigger, just like the base gun.

  • Incarnon ammo is greatly increased: From 12 max charge and 1 charge per headshot, to 40 max charge and 4 charges per headshot.

  • Recoil is lowered, to the same as the base gun.

  • However, the damage is lowered a bunch to compensate. It currently deals 400 direct and 600 aoe damage, and I'd suggest to lower it to ~200 direct and ~275 aoe damage (using the Zylok Prime's stats).

    • Overall, I think these changes would make it feel a little bit more in line with the base gun.

• Gammacor - Also heavily tweaked. Instead of a vacuum-explosive, it now shoots a fully automatic trio of beams (I chose three beams, because of its 3 "horns"), far more similar to the base gun. These three beams, however, behave a bit differently than other beam guns:

  • It shoots one beam with pinpoint accuracy right where you aim (just like the base gun). However, the 2 other beams also shoot straight forward, but with a little bit of distance from the main beam, while also quickly "circling" around the main beam in a clockwise manner, more or less giving its attack a "thick beam" sort of feel. Each beam deals a seperate instance of damage though, so hitting with all 3 beams on the same target will of course give the highest damage output.

  • All 3 beams have different damagetypes: The main middle one deals Magnetic (same damagetype as the base gun), while one of circling beams has base Cold damage, and the last one has base Electric damage!

    • With these changes, I think the gun would not only mod better for both forms, I think it would also be far more fun and less limitted.

Furis and Lex I left as they are. While the Furis and Lex goes from longrange hitscan bullet-shooters to more shortrange beam/wave guns, I think they play and mod similar enough to leave them as they are.

 

MELEE GENESIS WEAPONS:

A lot of the suggestions for the melee Incarnon forms is mostly to just add new options and functions. The basis for this is because the Innodem has a whooping 3 special functions; 1) aerial blades, 2) DR-bonus on finishers and 3) increased range. Personally, I think all Incarnon melee should have at least 2 special functions, so the focus here will mostly just be new effects (and tweaking some of the weaker ones). This will be a little bit more numbers-heavy, so the "vibe" of the suggestions can be understood a little bit better. Also note, unless stated otherwise, everything here are additions to their current effects. On to the melee Incarnon changes:

• Skana

  • The finisher-stun effect is beefed up like this: On Incarnon transformation, or on any finisher, stun and blind all enemies for 6 seconds within 10 meters. Furthermore, performing finishers in Incarnon form also grant +200 Overguard (bonus capped at 1200 Overguard).

  • Additionally, Incarnon heavy attacks also add a quick wall of blades, slashing at all enemies in a cone in front of you. Its forward range is the same as the heavy attack itself but the wall's verticality and width is bigger. It deals damage 3 times in very quick succession, each hit dealing 30% of heavy attack damage and has guaranteed slash-procs.

• Bo

  • Incarnon form's followthrough is also increased to 0,9x (From its very meager 0,5x), to make its reach bonus more potent.

  • In addition to current effects, slide attacks launches a "Storm Wheel" attack, which is basically an electric wind-replica of the staff, launched in the aimed direction in a spinning fashion (similar to a Glaive, just way bigger in size). This wind wheel pierces all enemies, but bounces on terrain up to 6 times. The wind wheel has an 8 second cooldown, and this cooldown is reduced by 0,5 seconds for every kill with the Bo (not counting Storm Wheel kills). The Storm Wheel deals 200% modded slide attack damage (same damage distributions, status, crit etc), grants 5 combo per enemy hit and produces a guaranteed electric status on each enemy hit, regardless of modding.

• Furax

  • The Incarnon form's fire effect on heavy slams now also drag in enemies from a 10 meter radius for 1 second.

  • Every 4th melee hit also creates a fiery explosion around the impact point. The explosion has base heat-damage, deals 150% of base melee damage (and is of course fully moddable), in a 4 meter radius with no falloff and guarantees a heat status-proc on all affected targets (regardless of modding). The explosion also adds 1 combo point per target struck - even if it occurs from a heavy attack (but is added AFTER combo points have been consumed from the heavy attack).

• Magistar

  • The 50% wind up speed bonus is removed.

  • In Incarnon form, heavy slams now also stab enemies with stone spikes if they are caught in its slam radius, enhancing the damage of the heavy slam. These spikes add damage equal to 25% of modded heavy slams, along with having a forced slash-proc. However, this stone spike attack has a 12 second cooldown, and Magistar kills which are not made by the stone spike attack reduces its cooldown by 0,5 seconds.

  • The secret passive lifesteal bonus which is granted for Sancti Magistar Incarnon is now ALSO given to the regular Magistar Incarnon.

• Ceramic Dagger

  • The spectral dagger explosions launched from heavy attacks no longer staggers the player.

  • In addition, upon equipping the dagger (via quick melee or full melee mode, doesn't matter), you gain the "Hidden Blade" buff, which grants +30% attack speed for 5 seconds.

• Dual Ichor

  • When the Dual Ichor is held (via quick melee or full melee mode, doesn't matter) and is in Incarnon mode, it now also provides the Mending Heart buff, which regenerates 10 health every second. When you are missing health, the heart-like structure on the Dual Ichor's handles start beating faster and eminate a soothing energy glow.

• Ack & Brunt

  • The spectral axe explosions launched from air/slide attacks no longer staggers the player.

  • With any Ack and Brunt kill, you gain +1 "Axe Power" charge, max 10 stacks. Each charge adds +50% damage for your next Spectral Axe throw (i.e. max +500% bonus at max stacks), but each throw only consumes ONE charge each!

  • Furthermore, the Ack and Brunt in Incarnon form can also absorb damage by blocking physical damage (not just elemental) and when attacking with stored damage, now the absorption damage bonus lasts for 4 seconds after attacking. Each time you block to absorb more damage and attack again, this creates a new seperate 4 second timer, which stacks additively with previous one(s)!

• Nami Solo

  • In addition to current effects, slide attacks produce a "Ghastly Tsunami" attack, which is basically a wide and far-travelling ethereal water wave, traversing across terrain similar to Frost's Ice Wave. This water wave pierces all enemies, and has an 10 second cooldown, and this cooldown is reduced by 0,5 seconds for every kill with the Nami Solo (not counting kills with the Ghastly Tsunami). The Ghastly Tsunami wave deals 100% modded slide attack damage, knocks down all enemies, procs 1 Cold status on them and grants 5 combo per enemy struck.

• Sibear

  • Heavy attacks also launches 7x icicles, shot out in a horizontal fan. The icicles have base Cold, Slash and Puncture damage (split 33/33/33%) and the total damage is 25% of the heavy attack's modded damage for each icicle, and they each have 1 meter punchthrough.

  • Its allegedly intended "ice fields" need 2 things: 1) to actually EXIST, and 2) a visual representation of them. The ice field could also get extended duration equal to this: 4 seconds at base, +1 second more per additional combo multiplier (so max 16 seconds).

• Hate

  • In addition, on heavy attack or heavy slam, spawn an "Orbital Blade". The Orbital Blade is a spectral blade, similar looking to the blade-component of Hate. The Orbital Blade revolves around you 2 times per second. It deals 25% of modded melee damage (basic melee, not heavy melee), and has a 25% combo count chance, otherwise with the same stats (crit, status etc) as regular attacks. The blade lingers for 3 seconds, +1 second per combo multiplier (meaning max 15 seconds on a heavy attack with a 12x combo multiplier). The Orbital Blade can be refreshed, but only with heavy attacks which would produce a longer lasting Orbital Blade than the current one's remaining duration.

• Anku

  • In addition to current effects, on kill, a homing soul-projectile is launched from the killed enemy. The projectile travels through walls, deals 100% melee damage, grants 1 combo point and produces a guaranteed cold status effect on the enemy.

 

So, those were my "what if"-suggestions!

Anything in here you strongly agreed or disagreed with? Please discuss!

Edited June 6 by Azamagon

[a1man57]

Wishful thinking, but I am expecting some heavy nerfs to some of these weapons come the Jade update. The only reason I say this is because after playing with the Latron and the Angstrum, the game has become a lot more trivial. For instance, the Latron's incarnation radial attack hits harder than a fully built kuva bramma. I've not known DE to buff already hard-hitting weapons. Food for thought...

Edited June 6 by a1man57

[HRW33544]

My thoughts on changing was just make killing enemy also charges the bar but with less charge. 

[Azamagon]

10 hours ago, a1man57 said:

Wishful thinking, but I am expecting some heavy nerfs to some of these weapons come the Jade update. The only reason I say this is because after playing with the Latron and the Angstrum, the game has become a lot more trivial. For instance, the Latron's incarnation radial attack hits harder than a fully built kuva bramma. I've not known DE to buff already hard-hitting weapons. Food for thought...

I think it's unlikely that they will nerf the Incarnons (much, at least). They have no problem with us being powerful, the reason for nerfing weapons like the Kuva Bramma was most notably because of its automated power via Warframes like Wukong using his clone. As you may know, when we put weapons into Incarnon form, that form does NOT carry over to clones. So while the Incarnons are very powerful, they can't be automated as much, which they seem to be ok with.

That said, most of the suggestions here aren't all meant to be buffs (the melee ones definitely aside). For example, the Latron, Torid, Soma, Gorgon and Gammacor are all straight up sidegrade/reworks, not plain buffs.  The Angstrum, as you mentioned, with me suggesting it to have an AoE component to it, I'd imagine that addition would come with a nerf to its direct damage, for example. In its case, I meant for it to be available to be modded more similarly to the base gun, such as modding it for AoE radius for example. And with something like the Braton's increased RoF, I could see its damage being nerfed if need be, and then have its max Incarnon charge increased to compensate for that. You know, shifting it around from raw damage to a bit more speediness more in line with the base gun.

And, hypothesize that my suggestions came to fruition, and now some of the weapons have become a bit too strong. Well, then tune down some of their numbers or what have you. The point of this thread is mostly (at least for the Primaries and Secondaries) to match their Incarnon forms better with their base forms.

4 hours ago, HRW33544 said:

My thoughts on changing was just make killing enemy also charges the bar but with less charge. 

Well, that could work too, but I think getting a small charge on bodyshots is arguably more useable. For example, think of fighting bosses with no weakpoints and no minions - something the Torid and Angstrum completely doesn't care about.