Please re-introduce a reason for building for multiple damage types for the one mission

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

-snip-

Come to think of it, why am I discussing this with you?

You didn’t know what it was like before and you can’t trust someone who, for reasons beyond just putting the right thing in the right box, did it for years. You’re not interested in learning because you’ve never been interested in much aside from what it takes to make the game as simple as possible. If we’re not even on the same basic page of “This fight plays out differently for your build and my build”, then I’m wasting my time talking to you. The system’s been removed, what’s left is a hollow and simple experience that you were already experiencing, except now I’m forced into experiencing it too.

So in all honesty, the more I talk to you and think about what’s happened while you’re trying to tell me how it’s a good thing, the more furious I get while wasting my time dealing with you.

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

11 hours ago, quxier said:

My builds won't be affected too much because of this change. However my builds changes for some time because of few things they added. I'm sometimes using magnetic with Melee vortex. I'm thinking about magnetic arcane that jams weapons (I don't have full arcane). And some others.

🤔 But since you’re going to keep running your mouth, maybe I should use that to my advantage. I’m looking for interesting things to do in the new system while I deal with the whiplash of lost options.

This quoted bit here: you seem to think it’s an example of..  something. What is it supposed to do and what’s the thinking behind it?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, let's assume I'm stupid & ignorant. All you are saying is that there were many (?) interaction between your loadouts (damage type) and enemies. Give me at least 10. 20 should be easy for you. However DIFFERENT interaction.

Sure! In fact, let me show you! Give me a loadout and an enemy to fight, and I’ll give you a build that will have you switching between your gear and thinking on your feet according to how a fight is playing out according to things like where it’s taking place and what your objective is, if you don’t keel over and die first because you’re a fish out of water when your build isn’t doing all the carrying alone with barely any input from you aside from point and click. There’s 10 interactions in that one mission with that one set of gear and builds alone

Ok, then post that examples. You are an expert here. Post YOUR experience with system. And more than oh this enemy takes X damage and that enemy takes Y.

All I'm hearing is there are lot of interactions but I haven't seen a lot proper examples. If you are going to convince someone like me (that are not doing all those stuff) then you need proper examples. Because what you have just said is so generic that my solo run is like this. That run doesn't takes into account too much of enemy vulnerability.

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Overpowering doesn't not mean simplifying system. Overpowering means giving it more "power" or "strength". Removing (simplifying) system does not neccessary make us stronger (overpowering). However it can (doesn't have to) happen.

It’s what actually happened. There is no ambiguity, when you had an enemy that was resistant to a damage type and you hit them hard enough to kill them in one shot even though they were reducing the damage you were doing to them by whatever the percentage was, you were overpowering the system and it might as well not have existed for you.

Good job.

If you hit hard enough everything dies. That was and is still the fact. There are not many examples with some kind of damage reduction where how  hard you hit isn't exactly beneficial.

You haven't proven anything...

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Not sure exactly what you are talking here about. Like Single target were good for many mobs if you have some setup?

What?

I’m saying that AoE for the fodder and single target for the big bad is like, one of the most basic considerations. The game has all these enemy types and enable you to do just that, whether it’s an Angel and those around it or a Heavygunner and a bunch of lancers or anything where there’s enough of a relative difference between two enemies that hitting one with AoE does a lot less against the one but a goodly chunk of damage against those around it

I'm not sure about early to mid game but Angel fights were different than Heavygunner. With Heavygunner I pick best damage/status/stuff against those enemies, put some AoE around them and everything dies around them. Angel's fight were different. AoE that worked on lesser enemies hasn't worked on Angels for me. I've used K.nukor at that time. My setup has been dealing good damage against enemies while Angel weren't too much affected.

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

And it’s not just that; maybe you just need to soften up a group to pick them off with abilities like Nekros’ Soulpunch to add to your army or a single target that pops enemies in a chain reaction or whatever, maybe the projectile speed on your AoE and the amount of reserve ammo is such that picking off three little dudes with consecutive headshots makes more sense and you save your status-applying AoE for something else. I don’t know exactly what your gameplay has been like, but I’m guessing AoE was the answer to all your problems, so try and imagine what might happen when AoE is still useful, but isn’t going to be the best solution all the time

And then add extra layers on top of that; AoE may wipe out a group of enemies but leave resistant enemies standing, facilitating a requirement for something else to be brought to bear because simply shooting them again isn’t the solution. Maybe the damage type of one weapon means it’s not so useful against an enemy despite having its use against a different enemy, but the status effects it applies is actually more valuable for that particular moment and sets up some kind of synergy with another piece of kit.

That sort of interaction, adjusting on the fly as things happen around you, setting scenarios up to make the most out of what you brought while simultaneously not being killed by those trying to kill you (adding further wrinkles to the scenario and mini puzzles to solve and micro goals to achieve), what do you know about that?

Those kind of interaction sounds reasonable but when you start playing with teams all of sudden AoE starts to be more important. Sure, non sp low level you can do this. On higher levels you are mostly expect to deal with many enemies, hence AoE. That's why I said Angel fight were much different.

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

-snip-

Come to think of it, why am I discussing this with you?

You didn’t know what it was like before and you can’t trust someone who, for reasons beyond just putting the right thing in the right box, did it for years. You’re not interested in learning because you’ve never been interested in much aside from what it takes to make the game as simple as possible. If we’re not even on the same basic page of “This fight plays out differently for your build and my build”, then I’m wasting my time talking to you. The system’s been removed, what’s left is a hollow and simple experience that you were already experiencing, except now I’m forced into experiencing it too.

So in all honesty, the more I talk to you and think about what’s happened while you’re trying to tell me how it’s a good thing, the more furious I get while wasting my time dealing with you.

You want to prove me (us) that old system had some value. I may still don't like but I would at least get why you liked it. And maybe other people would find it more interesting (hat they have not used it). All I know that you have spreadsheet in your head and read damage types of enemies and interact with certain weapon.

But if you are going with "this had some 10 interactions" then I will just

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, then post that examples. You are an expert here. Post YOUR experience with system. And more than oh this enemy takes X damage and that enemy takes Y.

All I'm hearing is there are lot of interactions but I haven't seen a lot proper examples. If you are going to convince someone like me (that are not doing all those stuff) then you need proper examples. Because what you have just said is so generic that my solo run is like this. That run doesn't takes into account too much of enemy vulnerability.

If you hit hard enough everything dies. That was and is still the fact. There are not many examples with some kind of damage reduction where how  hard you hit isn't exactly beneficial.

You haven't proven anything...

I'm not sure about early to mid game but Angel fights were different than Heavygunner. With Heavygunner I pick best damage/status/stuff against those enemies, put some AoE around them and everything dies around them. Angel's fight were different. AoE that worked on lesser enemies hasn't worked on Angels for me. I've used K.nukor at that time. My setup has been dealing good damage against enemies while Angel weren't too much affected.

Those kind of interaction sounds reasonable but when you start playing with teams all of sudden AoE starts to be more important. Sure, non sp low level you can do this. On higher levels you are mostly expect to deal with many enemies, hence AoE. That's why I said Angel fight were much different.

You want to prove me (us) that old system had some value. I may still don't like but I would at least get why you liked it. And maybe other people would find it more interesting (hat they have not used it). All I know that you have spreadsheet in your head and read damage types of enemies and interact with certain weapon.

But if you are going with "this had some 10 interactions" then I will just

You’ll just what? Not know what I’m talking about, which are things I wouldn’t be so vehemently arguing for the sake of if there wasn’t something there?

Do you think I’m stupid and played “Match the colour” for years because it played out like what your experience has been just with diiiiiiifferent cooloooourrs? Do you think I didn’t explore what those resistances and bonuses actually translated to in-game? Do you think I’m going to sit here and give you a blow-by-blow of every decision I’d make in the fight, simulating what the enemy response would most likely be, drawing you the gridwork of my positioning based on whether I’m considering using my more-effective-but-more-risky melee and less-effective-but-more-range primary and then how I’m going to swap between the two as enemies with different resistances and weaknesses join the fray as reinforcements while I’m defending the mobile defense target, since you can’t imagine something outside of your knowledge base and you seem to think what I’m describing is what you’re describing when we’re not even reading the same book much less the same page?

 

Because I would, even though you read (?) what I’d already pointed out and parsed it through the lens of your perspective and came out the other side convinced it’s the same thing that you know when I have to ask how you figure that. Except it’d be a waste of time. The system’s gone anyways, you’re convinced that simplicity is for the better when what I’m positing is the exact opposite, and luckily you aren’t the game designer who I’m asking to “reintroduce complexity back into the game, here are objective reasons why cutting down the complexity this much is a bad thing”. Unless you are, in which case I want words with you, starting with how the concept of different bonuses and resistances in the one mission and what they mean seems to fly over your head.

 

Since I’ve got a more open mind and broader perspective, how about you instead explain to me your magnetic build. The status changes were good, could’ve been better with the old damage system as the old system encouraged and rewarded multiple elements in the one loadout which translated into more reason to bring different status effects to bear. So if you’ve got something that can be done with the new more-basic system that might seem interesting, lay it on me

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[x90maverick]

11 hours ago, Merkranire said:

 

Sure! In fact, let me show you! Give me a loadout and an enemy to fight, and I’ll give you a build that will have you switching between your gear and thinking on your feet according to how a fight is playing out according to things like where it’s taking place and what your objective is, if you don’t keel over and die first because you’re a fish out of water when your build isn’t doing all the carrying alone with barely any input from you aside from point and click. There’s 10 interactions in that one mission with that one set of gear and builds alone

 

Caliban
 

Edited June 21 by x90maverick

[Fallowsthorn]

As someone not involved in... whatever the above argument is turning into, I just want to say the rework is actually doing more to diversify my builds, because now I actually understand what I'm doing and it's less frustrating to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Before it was 13-way elemental rock-paper-scissors, except after C or when sounding like A as in "neighbor" and "whey," so I basically just gave up, slapped on Toxin, and only ever messed with the other elements for the Nightwave dailies. It was just too much memorization and complexity. I don't begrudge other people liking that kind of thing, but I'm a liberal arts gamer, let's say. With the new system, it's boiled down to eight or so, and I'm not tearing my hair out wondering why this element doesn't affect that enemy when it works on all the others.

There are still some missions where you want to bring multiple damage types. Crossfires, Fissures, some Bounties, some events, etc, have multiple factions per mission. I still rather favor the "overwhelming power" approach, myself, but there is some incentive for contingency planning and the like, and most of it is at least mid-game, giving new people a chance to learn the basic system without needing an encyclopedia on hand and then get fancy with it.

I hear you, though. You invested a lot of time and effort into perfecting a skill, and then all of a sudden you've been told that no, actually, most people would rather not do all that. That has to sting no matter what the skill in question is. Since the other common complaint is that end-game/challenge content is too easy, maybe we could solve one problem with another? Normal missions have the simplified damage types, and SP/Netracells/Deep Archemedea which I've spelled wrong but whatever have the more complex system? I don't know, I'm not a game designer. Adding it to Teshin's whole "I will train you to be Super Cool" schtick seems like a pretty good handwave. [shrug]

[Merkranire]

46 minutes ago, Fallowsthorn said:

As someone not involved in... whatever the above argument is turning into, I just want to say the rework is actually doing more to diversify my builds, because now I actually understand what I'm doing and it's less frustrating to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Before it was 13-way elemental rock-paper-scissors, except after C or when sounding like A as in "neighbor" and "whey," so I basically just gave up, slapped on Toxin, and only ever messed with the other elements for the Nightwave dailies. It was just too much memorization and complexity. I don't begrudge other people liking that kind of thing, but I'm a liberal arts gamer, let's say. With the new system, it's boiled down to eight or so, and I'm not tearing my hair out wondering why this element doesn't affect that enemy when it works on all the others.

There are still some missions where you want to bring multiple damage types. Crossfires, Fissures, some Bounties, some events, etc, have multiple factions per mission. I still rather favor the "overwhelming power" approach, myself, but there is some incentive for contingency planning and the like, and most of it is at least mid-game, giving new people a chance to learn the basic system without needing an encyclopedia on hand and then get fancy with it.

I hear you, though. You invested a lot of time and effort into perfecting a skill, and then all of a sudden you've been told that no, actually, most people would rather not do all that. That has to sting no matter what the skill in question is. Since the other common complaint is that end-game/challenge content is too easy, maybe we could solve one problem with another? Normal missions have the simplified damage types, and SP/Netracells/Deep Archemedea which I've spelled wrong but whatever have the more complex system? I don't know, I'm not a game designer. Adding it to Teshin's whole "I will train you to be Super Cool" schtick seems like a pretty good handwave. [shrug]

It seriously wasn’t that hard, and it all could have been taught to players in such better ways… It took 5 minutes of pointing Simaris’ upgradeable scanner (that gives live feedback of what they were strong and weak against) at some dudes in-mission and a few missions to get a feel, and in the case of forgetting, we had the codex to have a quick glance through.

I didn’t even usually take full advantage of the stuff that did like 25% bonus damage ( 🤔 though Corpus would entice me to consider it more), opting for the more simplified 50 and 75% ones, but I knew that if I build for cold because I wanted the status effect and pointed it at some Grineer who was weak to cold, I’d do a bit more damage and it felt more rewarding. DE didn’t have to strip it down so much when they could have tried educating players first and making the idea of engaging with the system less scary, instead of relying on the community

They could have figured out ways to entice and inspire players to learn, and instead we got something that been pared back, with the tragedy that even if someone was inspired now to try and do something interesting, their options are limited

Edited June 21 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

I respected DE for how they made changes and introduced systems that shook the lump-on-a-log community up, introducing things that would briefly remind players that it’s still a third person shooter that’s trying to kill you and it’s up to the player to stop that from happening (at least until someone came up with some guide that turned the game off again). And I could see how much thought went into so many of the systems while I engaged with them, how stuff like Overguard’s weakness to void made sense because it had the whole range of game levels and whole range of every build and loadout we could possibly make to consider even if players just wanted it to cater to Steel Path and whatever flavour of the month build they were using.

Now I’m not so sure anymore, since it feels like the community won. My only hope is that they reintroduce some systems down the line that build off of the now simplified design and reintroduce reasons for and reward building for multiple damage types in the one mission

[Merkranire]

I cannot believe how uninterested I am in changing my builds while looking at my next mission because the game is telling me that all the thought has been distilled into the equivalent of faction mods. Whatever alternative damage types I might play around with just feel unrewarded when it’s purely for the status effect alone

It feels like my early days when I didn’t know anything and didn’t care, and not in a good way

Edited June 22 by Merkranire

[Rexis12]

Lmao, buddy is just talking to himself now. 

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Rexis12 said:

Lmao, buddy is just talking to himself now. 

Laugh it up. When you start wondering why you’re not enticed into exploring more of what the game has to offer, and when you start *@##$ing and moaning if DE did reintroduce some thinking to the game, I’m going to just watch

[Rexis12]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Laugh it up. When you start wondering why you’re not enticed into exploring more of what the game has to offer, and when you start *@##$ing and moaning if DE did reintroduce some thinking to the game, I’m going to just watch

'Looks at me considering using Magnetic and Blast now and changing up my builds for the faction I'm using instead of just the one-size-fits all builds I used to have'

Sure buddy. 

[Merkranire]

Just now, Rexis12 said:

'Looks at me considering using Magnetic and Blast now and changing up my builds for the faction I'm using instead of just the one-size-fits all builds I used to have'

Sure buddy. 

Funny that you mention the ones that got a status effect change, something new and shiny.

You mean you’re not going to make one-size-fits-all and then wonder why you’d use something else?

[Merkranire]

37 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

'Looks at me considering using Magnetic and Blast now and changing up my builds for the faction I'm using instead of just the one-size-fits all builds I used to have'

Sure buddy. 

Go on. The system was already in place to entice and reward changing things up, you just couldn’t be bothered to figure it out and now that you think you’re going to explore it, there’s less to explore

Unless you want to educate me how what you’re going to do is of interest

Edited June 22 by Merkranire

[Rexis12]

Buddy loves to hear himself speak lmao. 

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Rexis12 said:

Buddy loves to hear himself speak lmao. 

Well, I’m listening now; tell me what’s so intriguing about what you’re allegedly about to do when it comes to changing the damage of your gear for the faction you’re about to fight

edit: It’s been over an hour. I figured you’d have had some kind of thoughts about why you’re going to do the things you say you’re going to do

Edited June 22 by Merkranire

[alchemyisreal]

So I can take my mono blast Paris Incarnon to any level slap a bane for any specific faction and just oneshot everything from level 1-9999 without armor strip. Good change now I can use blast on all my weapons.

[Merkranire]

4 hours ago, alchemyisreal said:

So I can take my mono blast Paris Incarnon to any level slap a bane for any specific faction and just oneshot everything from level 1-9999 without armor strip. Good change now I can use blast on all my weapons.

Sounds like you’re making the most of the whole resistances and bonuses system

[Merkranire]

I miss the intertwining nature of the old system