Burnout and how it gets handled by DE

[Clegz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb 3xt1inct:

I rly don't see the problem here, maybe this sounds a bit unsensitive or you find it a bit controversial, but during gargoyle's cry getting a set of a legendary arcane took longer as it does in Belly of the Beast, it is just that they made the lower tiers much much easier to get, which means the comparative time to get them has increased but not total time.
P.E. a successful run at the assassination from gargoyle's cry took around 8 mins if you had a good team running and it took 3-4 runs, to get 1 copy of a rank 0 legendary arcane.
belly of the beast takes about 6-7 mins with an open lobby and low 6 with a good team, still it will take you 4 runs for 1 copy of a rank 0 legendary arcane, however there is also the alerts which give 15 volatile motes for an avg time of 4 mins (spy, exterminate, capture take litterally 1 min and a half).
Botb will land you the legendary arcane faster than ever before. Also because the ascension mission is much harder to grief (leech resistant).

for every alert (sometimes a literal minute for 15 volatile) you get 15 bronze arcanes, 15-5 silver arcanes or 3 gold arcanes. In gargoyle's cry you got 1 bronze guarantee, 1 silver with luck and for a gold you needed at least 2 runs and got 3 golds for 4 runs (every run is 7 mins minimum(fastest completion time i have seen proof of)). The effort needed for lower tiered arcanes got lowered drastically (the effort for a legendary arcane got lowered, but not as much) for this event compared to past ones. They are fighting burnout by eliminating the one that is most common with these events, new players grinding out lower tiered arcanes. 

so lets list how long it takes to get a legendary set in botb and compare it to gargoyle's cry, excluding mission alerts (due to gargoyle's cry and most previous events not having alerts) and assuming a good running team for SP (arcanes/runtime of 1 successful mission):

• bronze arcanes:  in botb avg 12 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 11 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 1.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 2 hrs 9 mins for a set
• silver arcanes : in botb avg 4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 32 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.8 arcanes/ 8 mins  or avg 3 hrs 30 mins for a set
• gold arcanes: in botb avg 2.4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 53 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.66 arcanes/8 mins or avg 4 hrs 15 mins for a set
• legendary arcanes: in botb avg 0.26 arcanes/ 6 mins full set in avg 8 hrs 4 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 9 hrs 20 mins for a set.
• Just to bring the point across that with mission alerts those times for the arcanes in botb go down a lot

Yes the legendaries take more effort to obtain, that is why they are legendary, why are you complaining about getting those great items faster than ever before?

Not everyone runs SP and not everyone has a good running team i´d argue the majority go in with randoms or solo and not in SP. So your argument and calculation just considers the most optimal conditions to farm. But that doesn´t depict the reality. On top of it it´s quite disputable if the time needed under your described conditions are reasonable in the first place. My opinion to this would be no.

Further your argument of burnout elimination via lower tiered arcane prices is kind of wobbly because the incentive to grind for them is enhanced due to the fact that higher ones are more costly thus even more timeintensive so players with less time to spend logically prioritize lower tiered arcanes as they are cheaper no matter if it´s this event or past events with slightly higher prices. So the player goes for what he can get in his available time to play and the majority of players are not nolifers. That leaves a bad aftertaste.

The result in the end is that this design locks players with less time out of obtaining higher tier arcanes by design and that never is a good healthy approach.

[Chaotictempleknight]

I feel the price for the legendary arcanes is a little steep. I KNOW, they are legendary arcanes and the event is around for a month, but 5 to 46 is quite the jump in price. It is a bit of bummer to come back with say 10 - 12 motes only to realize you need around a thousand for a fully ranked legendary arcane. I'm prone to boredom and eventually I won't want to do the event.

[3xt1inct]

20 minutes ago, NickeyGod said:

I think no one understands my concerns. It's not actually about the time to aquire stuff. Its about that they said that they want ppl to not burnout but putting this in is literally the reason for ppl to burn out. They literally just straight lied to our faces.

I agree that arcane farming is burnout inducing, i remember someone calculating how much time you would approximately need to  max out all eidolon arcanes the normal way (eidolon hunting) and they came to a time between 297- 365 hours of eidolon hunting, but yes getting arcanes is something that was always intended to do gradually and not in 1 sitting, if you log on every day for 2 hours and play the alerts and a round of ascension and do other stuff during the rest of that time you can get a set of all 3 legendary arcanes in 21 days...

16 minutes ago, Clegz said:

Not everyone runs SP and not everyone has a good running team i´d argue the majority go in with randoms or solo and not in SP. So your argument and calculation just considers the most optimal conditions to farm. But that doesn´t depict the reality. On top of it it´s quite disputable if the time needed under your described conditions are reasonable in the first place. My opinion to this would be no.

Further your argument of burnout elimination via lower tiered arcane prices is kind of wobbly because the incentive to grind for them is enhanced due to the fact that higher ones are more costly thus even more timeintensive so players with less time to spend logically prioritize lower tiered arcanes as they are cheaper no matter if it´s this event or past events with slightly higher prices. So the player goes for what he can get in his available time to play and the majority of players are not nolifers. That leaves a bad aftertaste.

The result in the end is that this design locks players with less time out of obtaining higher tier arcanes by design and that never is a good healthy approach.

true, that is why explaining the circumstances is important. the ascension mission takes 10 min tops unless you were abusing the enemy spawn bug before hotfix, meanwhile gargoyle's cry missions regularly took 15 mins in a random squad. as for the burnout prevention, it is not rly wobbly, its solid it is just not in line with what you want to hear. Players with less time are always locked out of time intensive things, i mean such is live, someone who did not have time to get good at a sport will very rarely become a pro, or those who pick up chess at age 19 have never become a grandmaster as far as i am aware of etc.

The arcane reward table will come back in future events, you dont have to get it all now, fomo is something you allow yourself to feel, with rationality that goes away. personally finishing up my arcane collection in this event and it is my 4 th one with this table, i dont have a lot of time to play the game, but i love the game and find myself consistently playing it when i have time.

6 minutes ago, Chaotictempleknight said:

I feel the price for the legendary arcanes is a little steep. I KNOW, they are legendary arcanes and the event is around for a month, but 5 to 46 is quite the jump in price. It is a bit of bummer to come back with say 10 - 12 motes only to realize you need around a thousand for a fully ranked legendary arcane. I'm prone to boredom and eventually I won't want to do the event.

yes comparatively the price of a legendary arcane is steep, but then again the effort for one is still less than past events, but i get the fact it does not feel nice to get away from a mission and think you have so little to show for it, but that is helas the way it is. and yes it gets monotonous quick, at least now you can get a bit of reward from normal alerts instead of 1 mission only.

[quxier]

On 2024-06-19 at 4:09 PM, NickeyGod said:

Hello Folks,

So here is the thing. At first i think yes limiting the amount of buyable Arcanes is very reasonable. But what is not reasonable is 2 Things.

1. The sheer amount of Molts you need to even get near maxing the buyouts.

2. The time limitation on the event itself.

Arcane Energize Example:

42x46 -> 1932 Molts / average of 10 Molts per run means 193 runs.

Lets say you do have a average of 8 Minutes per Run which is probably not as much as you really need. this means

8x193 -> 1545 Minutes / 60 -> 25 hours. And that is Arcane Energize as ONLY.

So basically i have to play 25 Hours straight to optain 2 Sets Arcane Energize for me. And even if i don't want 2 whis is fine. I still need to grind at least for 12.5 Hours

You are forgetting that you are not only farming Volatile motes for those old arcanes & stuff. You are farming frame (2 for helminth), 3 weapons and 5 arcanes. Taking those 3 highest aside I can probably buy like 4-5 maxed arcanes. Plus I have 1 weapon, 1 Jade baking in the oven (pun, operator) and all arcanes on some rank 1-2.

Still you can get them to rank 3, which is "only" 10 rank0 arcanes. So it's still like 6 hours per arcane plus above. It could be better, like twice less price but... eh.. what to do. This is mostly tip, to begin with.

On 2024-06-19 at 4:09 PM, NickeyGod said:

So my suggestion is. Add more time to the event or let it occur after a certain time again. Like the Thermal Fractures or Ghouls.

Or just change current grind like Orphix, Eidolons older farms to have shops, less rng/timegate etc?

On 2024-06-20 at 10:49 AM, Zaghyr said:

Have any of you thought for a second that maybe you're not supposed to be able to get maxed sets of every single arcane? And that extremely rare Legendary arcanes are supposed to be, I don't know, extremely rare. Players have actually deluded themselves into thinking that they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO farm all of this and it's baffling.

On 2024-06-19 at 6:31 PM, DismalPanda said:

12ish hrs for one set is whats going to burn people out, not a purchase limit.

Kudos to DE for trying to alleviate burnout, but players burning out is not even remotely DE's fault, it is entirely the player's fault for thinking it is somehow their destiny to farm maxed sets of every single arcane in the store when their are other ways of getting them in game.

If normal grind were good enough there wouldn't be such extreme cases.

15 hours ago, Clegz said:

Cheapest Arcane 3 Motes

Arcane Energize 46 Motes

15x the price

Time investment needed not reasonable, but we all know it´s not the first time that that´s the case and it´s tedious. The good stuff is locked behind arbitrary gates for nolifers. Even if you don´t want to farm everything the shop offers you´ll burnout farming the expensive arcanes. These kind of designs raise stresslevels and frustration.

And the fact that you can farm those arcanes via other 2 ways doesn´t help because they´re also locked behind rng and imense farm to dissolve mechanics and lets you play a lottery.

I find this predatory to be honest...

Hey DE it´s 2024 wake the f up...

Be glad it's not disgusting lottery with Crescendo/Duplicate

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1401862-arcane-dissulution-is-useless-now-crescendduplicate-issue-that-has-to-be-joke/#comment-13061883

13 hours ago, trst said:

14 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

...I mean that is literally the point of why this is problematic. It is BECAUSE of how long it would take to normally get these items through non-event means, that people feel compelled to do BotB. Both sources of them in conventional content are very out-of-the-way, time-intensive or time-locked, and require a know-how and investment that normally doesn't come naturally to game progression...

For most players, orphix or eidlons are simply not an option. These events are the only way they can EVER reasonably obtain one of these arcanes.

Then why is it so awful to spend a dozen hours to max out an arcane you'd have no opportunity to farm otherwise? Especially when the time to invest that dozen hours is a month long and this isn't the first event of this type.

 

But also engaging in the event is not the only "reasonable" way to get them. All the arcanes are tradable while there's many ways to farm plat. Plus their prices will drop during and for some time after the event which makes it even easier to finish a set.

Also I don't see how vosfor isn't reasonable. That alone turned all arcanes in that system into entirely passive farms. Yes it'll take a very long time to max a legendary arcane solely from vosfor but that's still progress for anyone who can't/refuses to do the regular content. 

Getting rare from Dissolution is a joke. It should be banned. You need like 7 arcanes (probably even more) and you will get some cheap arcane. So you trading 10x of price in most cases. For stuff you may not want.

All arcanes are trade'able but some cost A LOT. Energize costed like 2 000 plat. Yeah, 2 with 3x "0s"!.

Why it's so awful? Dunno, spent some hours finishing whole game or doing 1 activity again and AGAIN for just 1 SMALL THING? Unless you love that game, it's going to burn out you soon.

1 hour ago, Clegz said:

Not everyone runs SP and not everyone has a good running team i´d argue the majority go in with randoms or solo and not in SP. So your argument and calculation just considers the most optimal conditions to farm. But that doesn´t depict the reality. On top of it it´s quite disputable if the time needed under your described conditions are reasonable in the first place. My opinion to this would be no.

I wonder how many people run normal version. Some time ago I would be with you here. Nowadays I feel like people have at least good enough to survive gear (or at least not die every 15 second). They push that SP and "harder" stuff a lot recently. I don't have real data.

 

[Skynet66]

Quote

1 hour ago, NickeyGod said:

I think no one understands my concerns. It's not actually about the time to aquire stuff. Its about that they said that they want ppl to not burnout but putting this in is literally the reason for ppl to burn out. They literally just straight lied to our faces.

 

i completely get you its honestly disappointing and disgusting that so many ppl are missing the point. the grind is legitimizing the fomo which will lead to burnout no way to sugar coat it

[Clegz]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Skynet66:

i completely get you its honestly disappointing and disgusting that so many ppl are missing the point. the grind is legitimizing the fomo which will lead to burnout no way to sugar coat it

Most people will also burnout trying to farm the expensive arcanes via Eidolons or Vosfor farm simply because the reward to time investment ratio isn´t reasonable. The event reward design just enhances and accellerates burnout + FOMO. 

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

4 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

during gargoyle's cry getting a set of a legendary arcane took longer as it does in Belly of the Beast

...And there were cases of players encouraged to play the game for an unhealthy amount of time.

There are a lot of different long-term approaches. Your suggestion to lower the grind for it in normal content would be a good way to decrease the FOMO factor from future events, but it is not something that would/should be implemented right away for reasons.

While some people do like to rush through things. all the big grinds and content windmills in the game are on the principle that they will always be there for you to do. As terrible as some of their time commitments are, they will always be waiting for players...

...And then there is the fact that some of those grinds are so out-of-the-way, so dedicated, that players can't help but feel events like these are basically their only option to get stuff. Forma from plague star can be obtained whenever from relics, naberus items are easy to get in so far that you just need to do a couple of runs of high-bounty to get everything...

I for one am turned off from the current event. I have already obtained evensong, a copy of jade, a maxed primary and secondary arcane from the normal motes. From the volatile motes I pretty much just bought the skin and arm thingy and was done with it.

[3xt1inct]

3 minutes ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

...And there were cases of players encouraged to play the game for an unhealthy amount of time.

There are a lot of different long-term approaches. Your suggestion to lower the grind for it in normal content would be a good way to decrease the FOMO factor from future events, but it is not something that would/should be implemented right away for reasons.

While some people do like to rush through things. all the big grinds and content windmills in the game are on the principle that they will always be there for you to do. As terrible as some of their time commitments are, they will always be waiting for players...

...And then there is the fact that some of those grinds are so out-of-the-way, so dedicated, that players can't help but feel events like these are basically their only option to get stuff. Forma from plague star can be obtained whenever from relics, naberus items are easy to get in so far that you just need to do a couple of runs of high-bounty to get everything...

I for one am turned off from the current event. I have already obtained evensong, a copy of jade, a maxed primary and secondary arcane from the normal motes. From the volatile motes I pretty much just bought the skin and arm thingy and was done with it.

Well ill repeat myself, but arcanes were never meant to be farmed in one sitting/one event, but gradually over time for casual players as a reward for longevity of play. First arcanes were put behind trials (LoR, nLoR and Jordas Verdict) and boy do i miss those missions, but they were timegated, practically you could do one of each/day for in total 3 arcanes/day. The fact that there were 3 arcanes per day is also the reason why there is 3 different eidolons, because DE thought that players would only be able to run 1x3 /night. which brings me on the next part that now they are behind eidolons with ridiculous droprates and to complete all of them you'dd be looking at around 300hrs spent in mission hunting eidolons. 2 years later the first arcane event shows up with current droptable after DE increase the arcane max rank from 3 to 5 (that is 11 extra arcanes to max rank) and about 10 months after that event a second one pops up, then nothing for 3 years until 6 months ago when gargoyle's cry came around, now we already have a second one and 4th event. It has been long since i first played warframe and have never had the opportunity to max out my eidolon arcanes until this event even though i played in every single arcane drop event, FOMO is something tricky, cause why would you feel it? if you need the arcanes this quickly youll be done with the game in a month or 2 anyway, so why grind? if you know you are in it for the long run you know they will come back some day, or you go through arcane dissolution....

[Clegz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb 3xt1inct:

Well ill repeat myself, but arcanes were never meant to be farmed in one sitting/one event, but gradually over time for casual players as a reward for longevity of play. First arcanes were put behind trials (LoR, nLoR and Jordas Verdict) and boy do i miss those missions, but they were timegated, practically you could do one of each/day for in total 3 arcanes/day. The fact that there were 3 arcanes per day is also the reason why there is 3 different eidolons, because DE thought that players would only be able to run 1x3 /night. which brings me on the next part that now they are behind eidolons with ridiculous droprates and to complete all of them you'dd be looking at around 300hrs spent in mission hunting eidolons. 2 years later the first arcane event shows up with current droptable after DE increase the arcane max rank from 3 to 5 (that is 11 extra arcanes to max rank) and about 10 months after that event a second one pops up, then nothing for 3 years until 6 months ago when gargoyle's cry came around, now we already have a second one and 4th event. It has been long since i first played warframe and have never had the opportunity to max out my eidolon arcanes until this event even though i played in every single arcane drop event, FOMO is something tricky, cause why would you feel it? if you need the arcanes this quickly youll be done with the game in a month or 2 anyway, so why grind? if you know you are in it for the long run you know they will come back some day, or you go through arcane dissolution....

There is only a minority of people who would take the deal being in it for longevity just to complete one set of arcanes which are btw in most cases build enablers for certain warframe builds. 

So your argument why would someone grind them that quickly is obviously because of build variety, it´s the builds that makes this game interesting not the grind for certain build enablers. The grind itself is in some cases a tedious endeavor. It´s in my eyes just a bad design at the end of the day.

I have just a little over 100 days of login on my clock and since deep archimedia came out i just logged into the game to do this and netracells simply because i couldn´t be bothered doing the tedious grind for other stuff like arcane energize. I knew such a event was coming so i said ok lets wait for this to have a fair opportunity to get it and maybe a few others. Turns out that isn´t the case. I have a lot of builds i would like to try out on different warframes depending on a couple of arcanes locked behind eidolons or vosfor grind. I also can not be bothered to farm the platinum to buy them in the market as that´s also a tedious endeavor with high burnout potential.

[3xt1inct]

1 hour ago, Clegz said:

There is only a minority of people who would take the deal being in it for longevity just to complete one set of arcanes which are btw in most cases build enablers for certain warframe builds. 

So your argument why would someone grind them that quickly is obviously because of build variety, it´s the builds that makes this game interesting not the grind for certain build enablers. The grind itself is in some cases a tedious endeavor. It´s in my eyes just a bad design at the end of the day.

I have just a little over 100 days of login on my clock and since deep archimedia came out i just logged into the game to do this and netracells simply because i couldn´t be bothered doing the tedious grind for other stuff like arcane energize. I knew such a event was coming so i said ok lets wait for this to have a fair opportunity to get it and maybe a few others. Turns out that isn´t the case. I have a lot of builds i would like to try out on different warframes depending on a couple of arcanes locked behind eidolons or vosfor grind. I also can not be bothered to farm the platinum to buy them in the market as that´s also a tedious endeavor with high burnout potential.

This is exactly what i mean, yes there is a boatload of content these days so you got to pick what you want to do and what you think is worth the effort, but then you also forfait the right to complain about any and all shortcuts for this process, be happy you dont have to spend the 300 hrs in PoE, also if you have a little over 100 days of login i would not expect you to have energize already, most ppl completed their first energize only after day 300 or so, but i guess everything has to come quick for everyone these days, noone actually values the road to get there. M

ost of the builds that require energize, victory, strike or aegis work perfectly fine with a r3 (10 r0) arcane as well (only arcanes you need a r5 of to work properly are the resistance arcanes looking at nullifier in particular), you get into a hairy situation here and there but that keeps you on yr toes and trains you how to make builds work properly. Trust me on this maxing everything out in a short time is what makes the game dull, not not having the perfect polished build does not matter if you want to try a lot of builds, which by reading between the lines you will just try copy from knightmareframe or warframeflo, both of which have more than 1500+ login days and 4-6k hrs of playing time and probably did not hit a complete energize till at least login day 600 and 900+hrs in game time.

[quxier]

3 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

if you need the arcanes this quickly youll be done with the game in a month or 2 anyway, so why grind? if you know you are in it for the long run you know they will come back some day, or you go through arcane dissolution....

Maybe in next event I won't be there. 2 months is like finishing 1 or more game. Not just few tools.

31 minutes ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

...And there were cases of players encouraged to play the game for an unhealthy amount of time.

There are a lot of different long-term approaches. Your suggestion to lower the grind for it in normal content would be a good way to decrease the FOMO factor from future events, but it is not something that would/should be implemented right away for reasons.

While some people do like to rush through things. all the big grinds and content windmills in the game are on the principle that they will always be there for you to do. As terrible as some of their time commitments are, they will always be waiting for players...

 

How about doing few things at the same time:

- decrease grind, time gates & rng

- increasing amount of toys (frames, weapons, arcanes, mods) each time you

- improve quality of toys

That way you move time required to achieve toys to time that player play with their toys. Sure, that's not easy but let's be at least decent.

[3xt1inct]

30 minutes ago, quxier said:

Maybe in next event I won't be there. 2 months is like finishing 1 or more game. Not just few tools.

How about doing few things at the same time:

- decrease grind, time gates & rng

- increasing amount of toys (frames, weapons, arcanes, mods) each time you

- improve quality of toys

That way you move time required to achieve toys to time that player play with their toys. Sure, that's not easy but let's be at least decent.

well events get announced well in advance, but yeah fair, still r3 arcanes have the same function and utility as r5's just a tad lil less boost.

funny you mention decreasing grind, time gates and rng, while something like base circuit exists where you can skip hours of grind for frame parts. There is also the fact that in the last 2 years of updates every single update grinds get lessened (arcanes with dissolution, frames with duviri), tedious things get increased drop rates, things that are hard to come by get given away for free, prime resurgence active at all times and most noticeably and justifiably the best thing they could do for newer players is decapitating the necramech and railjack grind (they lock quests, which im against) for reference crafting the railjack used to take a week and for necramech parts you had to pray that the vault guardians dropped them because you could not get them anywhere else.

DE has decreased the time needed to get to the mid game and arbitrations, from there on its just the same thing all players had to do for the last 3 years, although i do see them shortcutting arbitrations soon due to the mode being dead except for survival. 

You seem to forget that most players once they get the toys they want, will only play for about 1 more week and then leave, till next big update, there is no incentive for DE to move time that way. Because right now you need to grind before for the weapons/ warframe you want, with the weapons you once wanted, so the moving of time is a matter of perspective and incentive to the developper. I has been painfully clear that DE's incentive is player retention, keep that in mind, they will only decrease grind/ in game time needed to get something if their player retention goes up with it. What i mean to say is that DE won't decrease grind time for legendary arcanes/new quest locked weapons and frames super significantly as it is seen as "end-game" content, if the end game content is complete there is only platfarming and stacking left, which won't retain players if you get that logic.

Plus There is a decent bunch of ppl on forums, reddit and even on the wiki comments complaining about everything taking so long to do and build and master, etc, etc. I mean i have played casually for 4 years now on this account and i still have not managed to finish mastering all the lich/ sister of parvos weapons, they too are retention mechanics, plague star is the only event handing out forma and conveniently i miss it every year due to traditional reasons. That is no reason to get mad, life is unfair, some things take time, others don't, sometimes opportunities come along, sometimes they don't, still no reason to criticize any one of them. if you choose to play a live service game that has been going for 11 years you might just know that catching up will take a significant amount of time or a significant amount of money.

[Clegz]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb 3xt1inct:

This is exactly what i mean, yes there is a boatload of content these days so you got to pick what you want to do and what you think is worth the effort, but then you also forfait the right to complain about any and all shortcuts for this process, be happy you dont have to spend the 300 hrs in PoE, also if you have a little over 100 days of login i would not expect you to have energize already, most ppl completed their first energize only after day 300 or so, but i guess everything has to come quick for everyone these days, noone actually values the road to get there. M

ost of the builds that require energize, victory, strike or aegis work perfectly fine with a r3 (10 r0) arcane as well (only arcanes you need a r5 of to work properly are the resistance arcanes looking at nullifier in particular), you get into a hairy situation here and there but that keeps you on yr toes and trains you how to make builds work properly. Trust me on this maxing everything out in a short time is what makes the game dull, not not having the perfect polished build does not matter if you want to try a lot of builds, which by reading between the lines you will just try copy from knightmareframe or warframeflo, both of which have more than 1500+ login days and 4-6k hrs of playing time and probably did not hit a complete energize till at least login day 600 and 900+hrs in game time.

I don´t like knightmareframes build suggestions nor warframeflos in general i just watch yt´s videos now and then to get some inspiration. Sometimes it hits the nail but mostly not. And we´re not talking about maxing out everything in a short time period, we´re talking about reasonable timeframes to aquire certain things for casual players who don´t want to nolife a game because why? It´s not like Warframes content is so stellar that you wouldn´t mind sinking in a bazillion hours.

The game forces you to do certain things coupled with a steep time demand and mostly in tedious repetitve gamemodes. Damn even some of the most needed primed mods are locked behind a login wall  which programs you to log in every single day if you don´t want to hand over plat.

The game becomes dull because it´s content is dull with a few exceptions. Trying out new builds and push them to their limits that´s what delivers a refreshing experience in it´s current state.

[3xt1inct]

3 minutes ago, Clegz said:

I don´t like knightmareframes build suggestions nor warframeflos in general i just watch yt´s videos now and then to get some inspiration. Sometimes it hits the nail but mostly not. And we´re not talking about maxing out everything in a short time period, we´re talking about reasonable timeframes to aquire certain things for casual players who don´t want to nolife a game because why? It´s not like Warframes content is so stellar that you wouldn´t mind sinking in a bazillion hours.

The game forces you to do certain things coupled with a steep time demand and mostly in tedious repetitve gamemodes. Damn even some of the most needed primed mods are locked behind a login wall  which programs you to log in every single day if you don´t want to hand over plat.

The game becomes dull because it´s content is dull with a few exceptions. Trying out new builds and push them to their limits that´s what delivers a refreshing experience in it´s current state.

It is the general gist that min maxing builds is not considered something a casual player does as well, i get you want to do it, but that comes at the cost of your time, i get that is not a fun truth but it's the reality of the situation, you want to play like the no lifers without doing the no life part. Idk about what you consider to be a reasonable time frame to acquire things, but as far as i can tell maxing out  2 legendary arcanes will take about 1hr 30 mins / day for about 21 days if you consistently log in 2x45 mins before 1900 and after 2130 or whatever other time is most suiting for you and your life, provided there is a 2hr 30 mins gap between session start points (respawn of alerts). that is you play the 3 alerts available, then do one run of ascension, do anything else till another alert comes along (30 min refresh rate) play that and then log off you will have landed avg 72 volatile in between 30-45 mins, while your time spent in a jade themed mission totals about 10-20 mins (7 mins ascension rest of time depends on what alerts are available) you will have loads of volatile left over if you do it this way, its ez, you dont do the same mission over and over,...

I do think that 40 mins/ day on avg for 3 weeks is quite reasonable considering the game genre, i mean we have been through much worse *cough* CITRINE & arcanes *cough* Caliban *cough* *cough*
if you rawdog the event mission you will need 8 hrs 30 mins for a max arcane (calculated for other thread) without alerts. honestly spread that time out, you have a full month for it. 

[Clegz]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb 3xt1inct:

It is the general gist that min maxing builds is not considered something a casual player does as well, i get you want to do it, but that comes at the cost of your time, i get that is not a fun truth but it's the reality of the situation, you want to play like the no lifers without doing the no life part. Idk about what you consider to be a reasonable time frame to acquire things, but as far as i can tell maxing out  2 legendary arcanes will take about 1hr 30 mins / day for about 21 days if you consistently log in 2x45 mins before 1900 and after 2130 or whatever other time is most suiting for you and your life, provided there is a 2hr 30 mins gap between session start points (respawn of alerts). that is you play the 3 alerts available, then do one run of ascension, do anything else till another alert comes along (30 min refresh rate) play that and then log off you will have landed avg 72 volatile in between 30-45 mins, while your time spent in a jade themed mission totals about 10-20 mins (7 mins ascension rest of time depends on what alerts are available) you will have loads of volatile left over if you do it this way, its ez, you dont do the same mission over and over,...

I do think that 40 mins/ day on avg for 3 weeks is quite reasonable considering the game genre, i mean we have been through much worse *cough* CITRINE & arcanes *cough* Caliban *cough* *cough*
if you rawdog the event mission you will need 8 hrs 30 mins for a max arcane (calculated for other thread) without alerts. honestly spread that time out, you have a full month for it. 

The gist of min maxing a build is min maxing a build it doesn´t matter if you´re casual or not. Where does this perception come from that min maxing is reserved for non causals? It´s just arbitrarily made up. And what if i don´t want to follow a three week schedule to complete an arcane? Maybe i want to play on 3 days a week maybe only on 2 maybe i don´t want to play for a whole week? It doesn´t matter you´re forced to do it which brings us back to time investment and your point you mentioned having been through worse.

That should really give you to think because it´s 2024 man. Those systems are outdated imo, in it´s current state to say the least. The most valuable currency a human being has is his time and once spend you´ll never get it back so a game should be well worth your time or else it´s just a waste... 

[3xt1inct]

17 minutes ago, Clegz said:

The gist of min maxing a build is min maxing a build it doesn´t matter if you´re casual or not. Where does this perception come from that min maxing is reserved for non causals? It´s just arbitrarily made up. And what if i don´t want to follow a three week schedule to complete an arcane? Maybe i want to play on 3 days a week maybe only on 2 maybe i don´t want to play for a whole week? It doesn´t matter you´re forced to do it which brings us back to time investment and your point you mentioned having been through worse.

That should really give you to think because it´s 2024 man. Those systems are outdated imo, in it´s current state to say the least. The most valuable currency a human being has is his time and once spend you´ll never get it back so a game should be well worth your time or else it´s just a waste... 

Okay I'm very sorry for the intrusion but i just had to check your in game stats to get some points through to you you have 411 in game hours, you have pretty much every decent weapon choice at every point in the game EXCEPT for the things that take much time to get (read grind out a bit) or a decent amount of plat, unless absolutely necessary (your voidrig that you probably bought seeing yr standing with necraloid), you built an amp that you clearly intended to use for eidolon hunting, yet never went, so you decided eidolon took too long to complete, ALL OF WHICH IS FINE TO DO. this is just info i need to clarify what i will say below.

411 hrs in 100 log in days means you played an avg 4 hrs in game time/day, if you want the arcanes that badly i bet you can take out a day to get the ones you want. also 4 hrs a day no longer qualifies you as a casual, in my opinion, so it will just take you a little more playing the same missions to get to the material you need to start min maxing builds. min maxing in games has always been something considered for non casuals (ppl who play avg 2hrs/ day or less) IN 100 login days, min maxing is something you can do after significant time investment either over time or in one stint (no judgement). my argument was based on the fact you said you were a casual player, which i presumed meant you had 200 hrs or less in the game.

Secondly, attacking the possible solution to your problem with the time it takes to get the arcanes you want without inducing burnout/boredom just confirms you did not read my comment at all, my comment states that you would do on 40 mins/day on AVERAGE, so I did not dictate how to spend your time. Trying to ridicule someone who is trying to help you make attaining your goal more comfortable just looks bad on your part. You expect DE to just hand you "the good stuff" like legendary arcanes and all primed mods in 2 weeks time? how is that in any way good for their business model? For DE you either spend the time boosting their numbers or you pay them, simple as that.

Yes it is 2024 and the first real thing you have to grind out a little bit is the necramech and railjack (i'm against locking quests after grinds, so yes this one is scummy), but i presume you skipped necramech (necraloid has neutral rank). The oldest grind system currently not shortcutted in the game is the lich/sister system, which granted takes a lot of time to farm out and even more to master the weapons, bonus its bonus damage is based on rng but can be increased with valence fusion, or by paying plat for the variant you want. YOU authored a thread calling this system outdated and calling for its removal. You did not want to invest time in eidolon farming for arcanes, but then also call the shortcut for the eidolon hunts outdated, i mean what do you want DE to do? Lose money so they can no longer sustain the game? Just so you can have your cake and eat it?

See the pattern appear? What DE wants: players spending time playing their game or paying for the items they want either directly or indirectly, you call the systems they made to benefit their businessmodel outdated and start ranting about them, only to start criticizing the shortcuts to the items as well.

Calling all systems that you don't like outdated because you don't get what you want fast enough has the same vibe as a toddler throwing a tantrum because his mother said he could not get the toy they want 3 weeks before christmas instead of on christmas.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe in next event I won't be there. 2 months is like finishing 1 or more game. Not just few tools.

How about doing few things at the same time:

- decrease grind, time gates & rng

- increasing amount of toys (frames, weapons, arcanes, mods) each time you

- improve quality of toys

That way you move time required to achieve toys to time that player play with their toys. Sure, that's not easy but let's be at least decent.

well events get announced well in advance, but yeah fair, still r3 arcanes have the same function and utility as r5's just a tad lil less boost.

I meant that I may not play this game at all.

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

funny you mention decreasing grind, time gates and rng, while something like base circuit exists where you can skip hours of grind for frame parts. There is also the fact that in the last 2 years of updates every single update grinds get lessened (arcanes with dissolution, frames with duviri), tedious things get increased drop rates, things that are hard to come by get given away for free, prime resurgence active at all times and most noticeably and justifiably the best thing they could do for newer players is decapitating the necramech and railjack grind (they lock quests, which im against) for reference crafting the railjack used to take a week and for necramech parts you had to pray that the vault guardians dropped them because you could not get them anywhere else.

DE has decreased the time needed to get to the mid game and arbitrations, from there on its just the same thing all players had to do for the last 3 years, although i do see them shortcutting arbitrations soon due to the mode being dead except for survival. 

I was going to most of your examples but that would be too boring. So I'll tell you more or less.

Sure they decrease grind, here and there. However it's still mix of:

- good grind decrease

- timegated/limited grind cap

- nice grind decrease of things that players don't use too much

- paying stuff

They don't decrease (too much) old arcane grind/timegate.

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

You seem to forget that most players once they get the toys they want, will only play for about 1 more week and then leave, till next big update, there is no incentive for DE to move time that way. Because right now you need to grind before for the weapons/ warframe you want, with the weapons you once wanted, so the moving of time is a matter of perspective and incentive to the developper. I has been painfully clear that DE's incentive is player retention, keep that in mind, they will only decrease grind/ in game time needed to get something if their player retention goes up with it. What i mean to say is that DE won't decrease grind time for legendary arcanes/new quest locked weapons and frames super significantly as it is seen as "end-game" content, if the end game content is complete there is only platfarming and stacking left, which won't retain players if you get that logic.

Why is that? It's because there is no quantity nor quality (not huge).

Let's take quantity first. What this update brought? 3 weapons, 1 frame, 5 arcanes and 8 mods(?). There are quest, some changes/addition better or worse. We don't get too much new stuff. Nora (15 may) gave us 2 augments & 2 tenet/kuva weapons. Dante (March 27) gave us more. Back to last update. Giving us not too much isn't so bad on it's own. The problem is in quality.

The problem is quality. 2 augments from last nightwave is for only 4 (2 variants) weapons from hundreds. Frames are limited what they can do (interaction). Styanax cannot do most stuff during 4th. Dagath is just 1,2 4  and 3 is just there  like passive (till augment, I've not really tested it). Melee getting 'just' +6 second to slash so you cannot combine it with other 'extenders' (lavos, mods etc). Dual nikana that is.. just ok. Does bring anything new. So on and so forth. If majority of stuff is not allowed then it's obvious that I won't play too much.

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

How about doing few things at the same time:

- decrease grind, time gates & rng

- increasing amount of toys (frames, weapons, arcanes, mods) each time you

- improve quality of toys

That way you move time required to achieve toys to time that player play with their toys. Sure, that's not easy but let's be at least decent.

I would love that but the fundamental problem is how the grindset mindset benefits corprate too much for them to actually make meaningful choices about non-plat time-savers. The only reason ones like the even exist (IMO, this is conjecture) is because it is a way to keep players on for longer than it takes to get their small slice of the traditional update content, and move on to another game. Call me cynical (IMO, this is hot conjecture) but for any publicly traded company or conglomerate slice, money is #1, and said company's PR's sole goal is to make people think that pro-customer and pro-worker tendencies are as close a #2 as possible, if even at all.

BTW I am not throwing shade on the developers of the game. They have done a wonderful job overall, and their love and passion for the game and its players shows. However, as the game and it's ever-longer progression gets more monetized, I can't help but be reminded of the Tenicent merger...

As for those who say the current event grind is acceptable, or the arcanes in question should be farmed over multiple events... I can't help but feel they only speak for themselves, as an easier time getting the rewards would simply benefit everyone, and the cap on the amount limits any trade problems.

[L3512]

Math in the OP is a bit off, average motes per SP run is 12 and 6.5 minutes runs are very doable.

You are looking at 9 hours per Arcane Energize without doing any alerts. If you do 1 capture and 1 rescue per day (random alerts of course) over the course of the month long event, you could buy Arcane Energise for as little as 2 hours of invested playtime.

[MrShvaber]

Why whole event its just grind some coins? I mean we have nightwave, why not do something like acts? Or at least make daily/weekly caps which increased if you skip it.

This allow avoid bizzare numbers. And "You need do daily for a month" definetly sounds better then "You need grind ~10000 green goo which takes ~5 days pure time".

[PheonixFontaine]

21 arcane copies max out an arcane. You can do it twice.

Interestingly the only point of a second maxed copy is for trading and is optional and mostly for profit. In an event where you fight Parvos over his greed.

Not going to argue that the platinum arcanes are a bit too expensive feeling, but the way some of these complaints are framed around getting all 42 of an arcane rather than just 21 is kinda funny given the context. Yes, trading includes a copy for your friend in some cases, but also if your friend plays, aren't you just grinding this together? And all those arcanes also can be obtained from their original source. And all those arcanes can be obtained through Deimos recycling.

I dunno. Still a 30 day event. With alerts (some of which are captures) and SP ones for more, you'll be able to hit every mission type you really want to and still probably have spare motes by the end if you're regular about it, Doesn't have to just be Ascension mode.

[PheonixFontaine]

19 hours ago, Skynet66 said:

i completely get you its honestly disappointing and disgusting that so many ppl are missing the point. the grind is legitimizing the fomo which will lead to burnout no way to sugar coat it

That is dilution of the meaning of "fomo" as a negative game industry term. An event or seasonal happening is not fomo, these are event/seasonal, they are rotational. Seasonal come back and event encompasses participation elements, you can't miss what you didn't take time to do, like a concert. As industry terminology goes, it's a predatory methodology of making you purchase something with real money because it will not be available ever again. The original Heirloom pack definitely was fomo. This is definitely not that. 

This is Warframe. Almost all content comes back eventually somewhere. EVERY SINGLE ARCANE IS AVAILABLE FROM IT'S ORIGINAL SOURCE.

The new stuff costs 320 motes. The old stuff costs 145 and is from prior events. Outside these is only the arcanes. Every single arcane is still available even when this event ends. They will return for some subsequent events.

This is not fomo predation. This is DE, They've been exceptionally good about that on the whole, with only 2 particularly notable blemishes. (Excalibur Prime and Heirloom 1.0)

I don't think people are missing the point. I think the point is irrelevant. 465 motes to farm from this event that are "necessary" max. (Even that number isn't quite accurate given how some of these event "exclusives" will be re-added for availability later, potentially through the Ordis vestigial mote shop when he relocates to Earth camp post-event.)

[3xt1inct]

9 hours ago, quxier said:

I meant that I may not play this game at all.

I was going to most of your examples but that would be too boring. So I'll tell you more or less.

Sure they decrease grind, here and there. However it's still mix of:

- good grind decrease

- timegated/limited grind cap

- nice grind decrease of things that players don't use too much

- paying stuff

They don't decrease (too much) old arcane grind/timegate.

Why is that? It's because there is no quantity nor quality (not huge).

Let's take quantity first. What this update brought? 3 weapons, 1 frame, 5 arcanes and 8 mods(?). There are quest, some changes/addition better or worse. We don't get too much new stuff. Nora (15 may) gave us 2 augments & 2 tenet/kuva weapons. Dante (March 27) gave us more. Back to last update. Giving us not too much isn't so bad on it's own. The problem is in quality.

The problem is quality. 2 augments from last nightwave is for only 4 (2 variants) weapons from hundreds. Frames are limited what they can do (interaction). Styanax cannot do most stuff during 4th. Dagath is just 1,2 4  and 3 is just there  like passive (till augment, I've not really tested it). Melee getting 'just' +6 second to slash so you cannot combine it with other 'extenders' (lavos, mods etc). Dual nikana that is.. just ok. Does bring anything new. So on and so forth. If majority of stuff is not allowed then it's obvious that I won't play too much.

9 hours ago, quxier said:

 

If you might not play the game at all, well sure, you wont have to spend time getting your rewards then, problem evaded. 

Yes they decrease the grind, still some grind is necessary for a healthy business model, you pay one way or another either with your time or your money, that is just how games like this survive, so the duality of the problem is that without the grind, the game would not exist, but with the grind players like you keep complaining about the opportunity for entertainment DE provide. That is just how the organisational side of the game works. How do you keep the free to play players playing? by having that grind aspect. It is not that i absolutely love it, don't get me wrong, it is just unrealistic to think that any of your proposed changes will be implemented due to the organisational and financial repercussions for DE itself. I choose to accept the grind because i like the game and would love to see it survive for a little while longer. 

i mean i took a look at your in game profile, you have 3880hrs logged of in game time, you have less than 100 entities to lvl out and i guess you are the type of player that played a lot in the beginning and then returned to play again for a week at a time. you have enough mastery points to get to lr2 you clearly did the eidolons because you thought you had to (which i get, dont like em either). You should know that there is a lot of quantity from a new player perspective, but from our perspective there is not, both perspectives are equally valid though. However this feeling of not getting quantity is made stronger by the fact that there are already so many mods for weapons, so new ones don't offer anything new other than possible new interactions (locking fire rate in case of cannonade) and yes the game is not catering all that well to its end game players, true, weekly missions are not enough agreed. For vets contentwise Dante unbound did bring more than the recent update, then again he was massively delayed (EDA struggles). That aside the fact there is a lot of quantity for new players is the grind DE would like to keep going strong, it's new accounts that they hope will end up like yours, 3880 hours in game and almost everything done. I was commenting in this thread from the new player perspective when talking about grind, which i thought was clear when i told the thread they massively reduced burn out in new player grind (lower tiered arcanes are very easy to get with this iteration of the event loottable).

Quality, well yes this depends heavily on what you define as quality, yes there is no gearbalancing, so you will see that typical meta style, are there a lot of weapons that are great picks from the get go? no, most of the weapons can be classed as mr fodder, which is kinda sad, but a lot of them have better variants that are still good and are very much viable in all content. you seem to describe quality as the ability to use all of your loadout at all times, this is unrealistic from a coding standpoint, either these interactions that are not possible caused bugs and issues that currently have not been resolved (like styanax 4th), the extend-o melee weapon interactions were patched out with the nerf of attack range, when zaws were used to create melee weapons that strike through walls etc. It is not that the Dev likes to limit the player, but coding needs to be able to keep up as well. Further, removing the limits on these interactions would also impact the individuality and uniqueness some frames enjoy, first and foremost this would break exalted and semi exalted weapons. 

9 hours ago, L3512 said:

Math in the OP is a bit off, average motes per SP run is 12 and 6.5 minutes runs are very doable.

You are looking at 9 hours per Arcane Energize without doing any alerts. If you do 1 capture and 1 rescue per day (random alerts of course) over the course of the month long event, you could buy Arcane Energise for as little as 2 hours of invested playtime.

look this guy gets it, 2 hours of playtime for a legendary arcane set is a little low of an estimate imo, nevertheless its better than 300 hrs of PoE to get them.

[3xt1inct]

13 minutes ago, PheonixFontaine said:

That is dilution of the meaning of "fomo" as a negative game industry term. An event or seasonal happening is not fomo, these are event/seasonal, they are rotational. Seasonal come back and event encompasses participation elements, you can't miss what you didn't take time to do, like a concert. As industry terminology goes, it's a predatory methodology of making you purchase something with real money because it will not be available ever again. The original Heirloom pack definitely was fomo. This is definitely not that. 

This is Warframe. Almost all content comes back eventually somewhere. EVERY SINGLE ARCANE IS AVAILABLE FROM IT'S ORIGINAL SOURCE.

The new stuff costs 320 motes. The old stuff costs 145 and is from prior events. Outside these is only the arcanes. Every single arcane is still available even when this event ends. They will return for some subsequent events.

This is not fomo predation. This is DE, They've been exceptionally good about that on the whole, with only 2 particularly notable blemishes. (Excalibur Prime and Heirloom 1.0)

I don't think people are missing the point. I think the point is irrelevant. 465 motes to farm from this event that are "necessary" max. (Even that number isn't quite accurate given how some of these event "exclusives" will be re-added for availability later, potentially through the Ordis vestigial mote shop when he relocates to Earth camp post-event.)

 

50 minutes ago, PheonixFontaine said:

21 arcane copies max out an arcane. You can do it twice.

Interestingly the only point of a second maxed copy is for trading and is optional and mostly for profit. In an event where you fight Parvos over his greed.

Not going to argue that the platinum arcanes are a bit too expensive feeling, but the way some of these complaints are framed around getting all 42 of an arcane rather than just 21 is kinda funny given the context. Yes, trading includes a copy for your friend in some cases, but also if your friend plays, aren't you just grinding this together? And all those arcanes also can be obtained from their original source. And all those arcanes can be obtained through Deimos recycling.

I dunno. Still a 30 day event. With alerts (some of which are captures) and SP ones for more, you'll be able to hit every mission type you really want to and still probably have spare motes by the end if you're regular about it, Doesn't have to just be Ascension mode.

most people in this thread including OP seem not to grasp these ideas

[L3512]

5 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

look this guy gets it, 2 hours of playtime for a legendary arcane set is a little low of an estimate imo, nevertheless its better than 300 hrs of PoE to get them.

Two minute completion time, I was being generous. Hell if there was enough capture alerts you could complete Energize in sub 40 minutes.