Jade's new kit and what it can mean for the design direction in the future worries me.

[stormy505]

I always find it weird when people ask for the CC meta back, considering how awful the game is when CC is meta. Like, going back to the CC meta, means going back to missions where killing enemies doesn't matter, it means having modes with similar designs to interception, mobile defense, and the old raids. A more recent example would be scarlet spear, CC was meta in that since kills largely didn't matter at all, wanna know what happened? People played limbo, used cc, and left the game for 2+ mins because turns out when the optimal strategy is CC, interacting with enemies doesn't matter and it isn't fun.

CC in it's current state is honestly in an ok place with the addition of higher level modes. Since it's a supplement to survivability and that survivability is actually needed when you start pushing higher and higher level content. (I always look at frost, even prior to cold rework and his buffs, people wanted him in SP circuit runs because CC and defensive utility was valued in high level content and defending objectives.)

Also, Pablo is just right about Loki. Pure CC frames are from an old era of warframe that just isn't coming back because the gamemodes that enabled pure CC were bad and DE realized that, shame the playerbase hasn't. And he can't make him relevant without really annoying the Loki mains. I like Triburos, but you always have to take his video essays with a grain of salt because his opinions are formed in an isolated vacuum that don't look at the entire playerbase but only his opinions. There's benefits and detractors to that methodology and content product style, but that specific video REALLY shows the negatives of that mindset.

[Darlf]

Jade is new Wips.

 

they call her support

 

but she is not a support, sure she at this point better that wisp who just trow some skill and forget abaut it to end of game but still how many dmg builds jade have ? how many supports on she have ?  people say she kill what left of trinity and othet suppoers.. but to be fair she not. trinity still will be god of WARFRAMES NEVER DIE, support oberon still end up make duviri a joke. ect ect, she not take place of any other support frame or support build, except wisp who like i said i not see as support. 

[Rexis12]

9 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Like, going back to the CC meta, means going back to missions where killing enemies doesn't matter, it means having modes with similar designs to interception, mobile defense, and the old raids.

I just want CC to be allowed to he as useful in stopping enemies, especially in regards to priority targets. 

Disruption has a mechanic where you can time out the Conduits, but made it so that all CC that can slow or stop them is ignored, making me wonder why even have that mechanic in the first place? Presumably as a safeguard for bugs, but that's not really a balance decision and just them covering their fcuk ups. 

Or how Interception can now only be handled with DPS, and trying to actually control thee points mean nothing as Enemies can just walk in. I mean you still have to kill them at the end, so I don't even know why they bothered. 

Or hell Defense and Survival are already kill focused, why would us being able to stop them be any big deal? 

9 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Pure CC frames are from an old era of warframe that just isn't coming back because the gamemodes that enabled pure CC were bad

Ok but does that justify gutting abilities like Radial Disarm or Mind Control. Or to allow things like Rev's current Mesmer Skin that only came about due to them wanting to slam CC in general, but forgot that the Prime that they were going to release had a CC component as his major survivability and scrambled the mess that's current Mesmer Skin? 

Chaos literally cannot function at the final waves of SP Defense due to them spamming Exists units, when that should be the exact time it would work. 

Even Void Armageddon, the mod where CC should be better off, fails due to te fact if you don't kill them when you leave to the other Exodamper, they'll just... Destroy the machine once the CC wears off. 

At that point why bother with the CC immune enemies, if the design of the game is already that inherently hostile to CC. 

[stormy505]

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Disruption has a mechanic where you can time out the Conduits, but made it so that all CC that can slow or stop them is ignored, making me wonder why even have that mechanic in the first place? Presumably as a safeguard for bugs, but that's not really a balance decision and just them covering their fcuk ups.

Two reason come to my mind immediately,

1. Ironically having the Demo's be CC immune makes CC frames actually playable without annoying the rest of the team.  Imagine a max range limbo stopping the demos at their spawn. With them being CC immune, you can stop normal enemies with a CC frame and let the team focus ONLY on killing the demo. CC immunity in this instance is them learning from defense missions where they learned that (hey, people get REALLY annoyed when people slow the mission down with cc frames, let's not do that again.)

2. Also, so we can actually fail the mission. It's inconsistent... but I think it's important for missions to have fail or soft fail conditions. If you could just perma stun the demos in place, it'd lower any difficult the mission has.

The time-out condition is specifically for demos spawning or not pathing correctly. I don't really think it was designed for CC to be an auto win button vs demos.

Also, Demos aren't cc immune. CC resistance and CC adaptability is closer to the correct terminology. The more you spam a specific CC on a Demo the less effective it is. They still do something, especially useful when you're cutting it close to the damage break point for whatever difficulty you're doing. There's also a couple cc's that just work and don't get removed, Cold, equinox/sevagoth slow, someone said Decoy but I haven't tested it.

 

 

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Or how Interception can now only be handled with DPS, and trying to actually control thee points mean nothing as Enemies can just walk in. I mean you still have to kill them at the end, so I don't even know why they bothered. 

? It's technically optimal (in terms of effort) to CC them. Cause once you reach the enemy cap no new enemies can spawn, ie no new eximus. No new higher level enemies. CC is often used by newer players to clear the mission assuming they are doing a solo play through of warframe, cause their damage builds don't meet the requirements to kill fast enough to clear. And it comes up again when they clear the star chart solo.

I haven't tested it thoroughly, ( I tried just now) but the leave none alive at the end of the mission isn't very strict. I can't tell if it's a time limit or what, but you don't have to kill all the enemies at the end, I left like 15+ alive at the end and it just went to the next round after a bit. But I killed a few... I'm not sure if you can do a killess interception cause I don't know the clear conditions at the end. But I also don't think it's a huge ask for CC frames to kill the eximus that show up and kill the enemies at the end of around.

 

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Or hell Defense and Survival are already kill focused, why would us being able to stop them be any big deal? 

Assuming you're talking about Eximus here? I'd blame Scarlet spear for the Eximus rework. Although it's a core design issue with CC to begin with. If DE makes a mode that doesn't require killing to progress, but want enemies to have any sort of presence, CC frames stopped that from happening ever. De saw people sitting in a squad of 4 afking the mission and said "nah... that ain't ok." So they hotfixed limbo for the event, and went to the drawing board to make something that made CC frames interact with enemies at all.

My guess at least. I don't fully agree with the eximus rework, but I understand where DE is/was coming from.

I also think these are modes DE probably wouldn't make in modern warframe, cause they try not to invalidate warframes in recent mission design. They might not be optimal, but modern gamemodes by DE tend to let everyone do something productive. (I might eat my tongue for saying this.)

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Ok but does that justify gutting abilities like Radial Disarm or Mind Control. Or to allow things like Rev's current Mesmer Skin that only came about due to them wanting to slam CC in general, but forgot that the Prime that they were going to release had a CC component as his major survivability and scrambled the mess that's current Mesmer Skin? 

Mind control is IMO buffed this patch, cause Jade Eximus are the first unit that is pretty dang good at killing other enemies, especially boosted by Nyx. Or when you have multiple as Nekros. Compared to warframe damage it's eh, but like, it's leaps and bounds better than any enemy vs enemy damage we've had before.

I don't remember a specific nerf to radial disarm, I'm going to again assume you're referring to eximus changes. Which I'd site when I talked about scarlet spear. DE saw a design issue that was/is going to persist into future game design. Not fully agreeing with their changes, it makes sense WHY they wanted change.

Rev's survivability is an issue that was caused by DE wanting to improve the sales of a weak frame. Arguably his CC improved cause it removed the ability for enemies to eat two charges if they did multiple attacks or attacked fast enough. He'd honestly be fine in the current state of the game (slightly below average) cause he'd play like how most CC frames play, where they don't want to spam abilities to shield gate, and minimize their gate breaking with CC, but DO have the ability to shield gate as soon as they get shot by high level enemies.
 

 

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Chaos literally cannot function at the final waves of SP Defense due to them spamming Exists units, when that should be the exact time it would work

 

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

At that point why bother with the CC immune enemies, if the design of the game is already that inherently hostile to CC. 

Again, scarlet spear moment. CC just stopping enemies entirely independent of level makes it real hard to make content for them. DE, understandably, wants players to interact with enemies, to kill them. Hard to do that if we can make them vegetables on demand.
 

23 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

Even Void Armageddon, the mod where CC should be better off, fails due to te fact if you don't kill them when you leave to the other Exodamper, they'll just... Destroy the machine once the CC wears off. 

I've done far less experimentation in this mode compared to others. I'd assume there's still value in CC in combination with the turrets letting them maintain their health more? I don't really know if that's possible though as I just don't play the mode, like at all.