De, How Are We Going To Fight Grineers Now?

[KazVN]

Lol that's the reason why 10 grinner lv 30 can tank horde of infrest invasion. Lol

[Liminal]

Why do we need scaling of mitigation in the first place?

Mob armor serves as a health amplifier in warframe. Due to the scarcity of health restoration for mobs it's functionally equivalent to a increase in health. It does provide a visual cue in reduced damage numbers and that helps create the "heavily armored mob" illusion.

So what's the point with scaling armor then?

* To make armor significant at high levels? A non-scaling % mitigation is still significant, at all levels.

* Because killing mobs need to be more time consuming at higher levels?  Scaling health is sufficient for this.

* To differentiate between mobs? Differing base armor is sufficient for this.

* To make the system unnecessarily complicated so that it's inaccessible to the average player?

I not read your maths because math hard for simple man.

But I completely agree with those 4 items. Armor scaling is completely unnecessary, that's why I liked that idea some suggested about making armor similar to shields.

[Phobose]

Hah, I wish. I tested it out not more than a few hours ago, and it is glitched as hell.

 

- Level 30 Lancers die very quickly. One shot from Brakk, one shot from Paris Prime, or two swings from Dakra Prime were enough to kill them. More or less the same as 11.3.0.

- Level 30 Troopers do not die very quickly. In the same run, it took three shots from Brakk, three arrows from Paris Prime, and six swings from Dakra Prime to kill them.

- Level 30 Napalms are just stupid now. In 11.3.0, I could kill them with about three Brakk shots. As of 11.3.2 (build unchanged), it takes seven clips of ammo from my Brakk to take them out. 4 damage per pellet.

- Level 30 Heavy Gunners aren't much better. In 11.3.0, my Despairs could take them out in about one clip (bodyshot). In 11.3.2, two clips of headshots reduced a level 30 Heavy Gunner's health by a third. Here's what really bugs me: it died the exact instant a yellow number showed up. Two thirds of its health gone in a single hit, where all of the other non-crit shots did a measly 6 damage each.

 

So no. Not functioning as intended. It needs fixing.

 

I don't find a problem with Damage 2.2 at the current moment.

 

Let me start off by saying my layout's 

 

2 Star Dera

Potato'd Aklex.

2 Star Ceramic Dagger.

 

All 3 of these hold the ability to Puncture, Seeing that I've noticed the damage increase from the damage reduction on a Heavy Unit go from 610 crits to 1416 crits with my Aklex on level 46 Grineer Heavy Units on Cressida Uranus.

 

On the same map, my Dera stacks puncture and Corrosive dealing about 100-200 damage a shot on a Heavy Unit (Grineer Napalm) normally Once Puncture and Corrosive kicked in the Napalm died rather quickly for me to check the numbers.

 

My Ceramic Dagger was having the most trouble  because... Well Melee 1.0 and Scaling on Mods at the moment.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/147381-armor-scaling/?p=1745622

I used the Soma. I'm aware the Brakk still tops the DPS chart, it's not like I'm gonna quit playing but....

 

The Brakk is still unavailable to the average/new player. It isn't an answer to poor content changes. My Vectis got hurt bad by this too.

 

That Thread is Outdated, DE addressed this situation already and reduced the scaling on the Corrupt Heavy Gunners they now aren't as Tank mode as they used to be.

 

Additional Note: I've Read the post after this one  and I need to speak out that there is a problem with the Critical Chance system in the game where your Critical Chance resets to standard when you are Client which is also another factor in damage not going through to it's fullest. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/148307-error-in-the-critical-chance-algorithm-between-client-and-host/#entry1755299

 

Also some of your Headshot Screen shots were slightly off the headshot hitbox for Corrupted Lancers because A headshot on them is a 100% Critical Shot  that Increases the Critical Damage of your weapon when shot there (Adding Banshee's Sonar on the permanent Weak points grants an even larger  and ridiculous number). It's very unlikely to get a Non crit Headshot on a Corrupted Lancer like that. Though I digress fully supporting that idea that you missed the headshot hitbox because I don't know if you were Host, Client or were testing these in a Private session by yourself.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ThatShadyGuy

[General_Krull]

I don't find a problem with Damage 2.2 at the current moment.

 

Let me start off by saying my layout's 

 

2 Star Dera

Potato'd Aklex.

2 Star Ceramic Dagger.

 

All 3 of these hold the ability to Puncture, Seeing that I've noticed the damage increase from the damage reduction on a Heavy Unit go from 610 crits to 1416 crits with my Aklex on level 46 Grineer Heavy Units on Cressida Uranus.

 

On the same map, my Dera stacks puncture and Corrosive dealing about 100-200 damage a shot on a Heavy Unit (Grineer Napalm) normally Once Puncture and Corrosive kicked in the Napalm died rather quickly for me to check the numbers.

 

My Ceramic Dagger was having the most trouble  because... Well Melee 1.0 and Scaling on Mods at the moment.

 

 

That Thread is Outdated, DE addressed this situation already and reduced the scaling on the Corrupt Heavy Gunners they now aren't as Tank mode as they used to be.

Curious, you are ignoring clear evidence that proves you wrong, while only providing anecdotal evidence without any backing.

[Redmage107]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but actually read the thread and timestamps Shady. You're complaining to me about being outdated something 10 hours before the damage revisions were applied. You're not contributing at that point, you're just making yourself look silly. plus the current numbers have been crunched and ARE current later in the thread which reflect the late game problems people are experiencing. Please do us all a favor and read the thread before you just toss stuff out there like that.

 

And level 46 for standard grinner isn't very much. That's still lower than T3 void armor which is the primary discussion point here.We're complaining about this for standard players, most people don't have your level of equipment. You also did not post your build so essentially your numbers mean nothing to anyone, since we can't replicate them.

[Definitegj]

I don't find a problem with Damage 2.2 at the current moment.

 

Let me start off by saying my layout's 

 

2 Star Dera

Potato'd Aklex.

2 Star Ceramic Dagger.

 

All 3 of these hold the ability to Puncture, Seeing that I've noticed the damage increase from the damage reduction on a Heavy Unit go from 610 crits to 1416 crits with my Aklex on level 46 Grineer Heavy Units on Cressida Uranus.

 

On the same map, my Dera stacks puncture and Corrosive dealing about 100-200 damage a shot on a Heavy Unit (Grineer Napalm) normally Once Puncture and Corrosive kicked in the Napalm died rather quickly for me to check the numbers.

 

My Ceramic Dagger was having the most trouble  because... Well Melee 1.0 and Scaling on Mods at the moment.

 

 

That Thread is Outdated, DE addressed this situation already and reduced the scaling on the Corrupt Heavy Gunners they now aren't as Tank mode as they used to be.

 

Additional Note: I've Read the post after this one  and I need to speak out that there is a problem with the Critical Chance system in the game where your Critical Chance resets to standard when you are Client which is also another factor in damage not going through to it's fullest. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/148307-error-in-the-critical-chance-algorithm-between-client-and-host/#entry1755299

 

Also some of your Headshot Screen shots were slightly off the headshot hitbox for Corrupted Lancers because A headshot on them is a 100% Critical Shot  that Increases the Critical Damage of your weapon when shot there (Adding Banshee's Sonar on the permanent Weak points grants an even larger  and ridiculous number). It's very unlikely to get a Non crit Headshot on a Corrupted Lancer like that. Though I digress fully supporting that idea that you missed the headshot hitbox because I don't know if you were Host, Client or were testing these in a Private session by yourself.

I think you mistaken a Elite Lancer as a heavy unit. Heavy unit only refers to those with 500 armor in the codex. Btw, Elite Lancer is very weak in game because its base level is 15. It has only 200 armor at level 15. At level 46, it only has 2875 armor. Trooper with base level 1, has extra 14 levels of scaling and has 5244 armor at level 46.

 

Lv46 Elite Lancer     - 2875 armor

Lv46 Trooper           - 5244 armor

Lv46 Heavy Gunner - 11626 armor

Lv46 Napalm            - 13149 armor

Lv46 Bombard          - 14790 armor

 

We are not interested in Elite Lancer.

 

 

 

Also Grineer headshot has x2 multiplier, not really called critical hit because it is still regular white numbers. Grineer headshot has x4 multiplier if you critical (yellow).

 

I think (not confirmed) the bug on client is that if your damage can kill the enemy without critical, it would never show the critical damage. Try finding higher health enemies to crit.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Definitegj

[Redmage107]

Also Grineer headshot has x2 multiplier, not really called critical hit because it is still regular white numbers. Grineer headshot has x4 multiplier if you critical (yellow).

Pretty much this. You CAN get non-critical headshots, it's very easy to do so with low level or low crit chance weapons.  I was testing solo and if you want I have multiple screenshots reflecting the same thing that I can upload. I just didn't feel like posting redundant headshots

[General_Krull]

I think you mistaken a Elite Lancer as a heavy unit. Heavy unit only refers to those with 500 armor in the codex. Btw, Elite Lancer is very weak in game because its base level is 15. It has only 200 armor at level 15. At level 46, it only has 2875 armor. Trooper who has level 1 as base level has 5244 armor at level 46.

 

Lv46 Elite Lancer     - 2875 armor

Lv46 Trooper           - 5244 armor

Lv46 Heavy Gunner - 11626 armor

Lv46 Napalm            - 13149 armor

Lv46 Bombard          - 14790 armor

 

We are not interested in Elite Lancer.

 

 

 

Also Grineer headshot has x2 multiplier, not really called critical hit because it is still regular white numbers. Grineer headshot has x4 multiplier if you critical (yellow).

 

I think (not confirmed) the bug on client is that if your damage can kill the enemy without critical, it would never show the critical damage. Try finding higher health enemies to crit.

You seem to know how these things work, did they change armor scaling or just how puncture/corrosion reacts to it? IIRC Puncture used to add more damage based on enemy armor.

[Definitegj]

You seem to know how these things work, did they change armor scaling or just how puncture/corrosion reacts to it? IIRC Puncture used to add more damage based on enemy armor.

Armor scaling didn't change since the first Damage 2.0.  Puncture used to have 50% armor ignore, Corrosive 75% armor ignore properties.

 

This effective means that you will always have 50% of puncture, 75% of corrosive no matter how high armor scale. Can also interpret that armor scaling capped at 25% and 50% for corrosive and puncture damage type. Finally, a cap and is accessible by every weapons.

 

So when you compared puncture vs slash (+50% to flesh), slash will deal more damage for lower level Grineers until a level where puncture will overtake slash. The difference between Slash and Puncture is what they refer by bonus damage based on enemy armor.

This system work very nicely. Even though still got some issues to iron out, newbies will still slaughter Grineers with Slash-based MK1-Braton, and most people is having fun except Cold which has negative armor ignore that will deal negative damage and round to 1.

 

However, to fix the cold (negative armor ignore) problem, they change the whole mechanics where they destroy the armor ignore properties of Puncture and Corrosive. Therefore, a system that is designed to be balanced with armor-ignoring puncture and corrosive, suddenly lack those armor-ignoring properties. You can guess what happen next.

 

 

Not saying the previous system is perfect and must revert to that but just don't change the system halfway. If need to change, change the whole thing at the same time. Personally though, i like how in previous system, Corrosive and Puncture is not the always answer to Grineers. It depends on the levels and whether is used on light or heavy Grineers.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Definitegj

[Phobose]

I think you mistaken a Elite Lancer as a heavy unit.

 

We are not interested in Elite Lancer.

 

 

Unless I'm Color Blind and immensely $&*&*#(%& I was hitting a Large Unit shooting fire rounds out of a Torid Looking Launcher Colored Red/Orange and Burnt Yellow with Violet Dera Rounds dealing 100-200 Damage a shot OR Bullets from an Aklex dealing Critical Hits to the Napalm's Head For 1.4k a Crit.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ThatShadyGuy

[Redmage107]

That's still lower than T3 void armor which is the primary discussion point here.We're complaining about this for standard players, most people don't have your level of equipment. You also did not post your build so essentially your numbers mean nothing to anyone, since we can't replicate them.

[PsycloneM]

Two issues.

* Why do we need scaling of mitigation in the first place?

* Looking at mitigation scaling in isolation gives a incomplete and likely misleading view of the state of things.

 

I disagree with the way armor currently scales, as well. However, the developers seem intent on using a power function to define the relationship between armor and level, which is why I've merely suggested to decrease the value of the exponent. Honestly, I would rather see something similar to this:

armor = base armor + 5 x base armor x ( current level - base level ) / ( current level + 50 )

The constant "5" sets a definite limit on the maximum armor a unit can achieve, in this case 6x base armor. The constant "50" controls how rapidly armor approaches this limit. Any of these constants can be adjusted for a more suitable relationship. Regardless of what's chosen, armor will approach a maximum value asymptotically and not skyrocket to infinity with increasing level.

To provide some illustration for your point, this is how armor scaling behaves now:

 

This is a plot of a Grineer trooper's effective health vs. level. Health scales according to the following relationship:

health = base health + base health x 0.003 x ( current level - base level ) ^ 2.5

Troopers have 120 base health. With this, armor scaling really could use some reevaluation.

Edited December 18, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Redmage107]

I trust your math but isn't the scale a bit too high for realistic numbers? Most players will not encounter level 160 enemies in the current system...I'm not even sure if that's a thing now.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Redmage107

[PsycloneM]

The current scale was chosen to illustrate the level at which an enemy's effective health explodes. Even if most players won't play defense or survival long enough to encounter enemies of these levels, the point still remains. A level 75 trooper has roughly 1 million effective health, and a level 100 has more than 4 million. This is extremely high.

 

EDIT: Adjusted scale on x and y axes.

Edited December 18, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Redmage107]

The current scale was chosen to illustrate the point at which an enemy's effective health explodes. Even if most players won't play defense or survival long enough to encounter enemies of these levels, the point still remains. A level 75 trooper has roughly 1 million effective health, and a level 100 has more than 4 million. This is extremely high.

It would be great to actually see that on a much lower scale, technically speaking even 30K or 50k is a lot of HP in the current system so 1 million health would be absurd to more accurately see the breaking point

Edited December 18, 2013 by Redmage107

[Kyte]

Hell, just changing the armor scaling exponent to something like 1.3-1.7 would be much better than what we have now. (And wouldn't involve writing new code)

 

While you're at it, drop the health exponent down a bit.

[PsycloneM]

 

It would be great to actually see that on a much lower scale, technically speaking even 30K or 50k is a lot of HP in the current system so 1 million health would be absurd to more accurately see the breaking point

 

Done.

 

EDIT: Removed proposal as it does not seem necessary now that armor, shields, and health have been scaled down.

Edited December 19, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Jay.ID]

Really? All my puncture weapons and impact weapons are doing just fine against those grineer. Sobek tearing through them nicely, Brakk too.

just go ageinst vor on solo and try to come out of there

[Kyte]

proposal

My main concern is that it doesn't solve the problem of damage with no elemental modifiers. Remember how everyone wanted Crush to ignore armor? Same principle. Elements with positive armor modifiers are a bandaid. An effective bandaid, but a bandaid nevertheless.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Kyte

[PsycloneM]

My main concern is that it doesn't solve the problem of damage with no elemental modifiers. Remember how everyone wanted Crush to ignore armor? Same principle. Elements with positive armor modifiers are a bandaid. An effective bandaid, but a bandaid nevertheless.

 

In my previous post, I was discussing my thoughts on armor scaling. My suggestions would then include armor resistances should not behave like health resistances, positive armor resistances should apply to damage reduction and negative ones should apply to armor, and the armor scaling power function should be reevaluated (whether it's an adjustment of the exponent or an entirely new function).

 

To offset these changes, perhaps the enemy's difficulty would have to be increased (whether that's through the damage scaling formula, improved AI, new enemies and abilities, and so on).

[Cranial_Enigma]

Armor needs to be looked at again, it doesn't really make sense that my skills and weapons are dealing 20 damage a shot against enemies that are level 50+ (my rhino stomp was dealing 12 blast damage ftw....). For now I will be enjoying fighting against the corpus who don't have armor and my weapons will actually hurt them up to really high levels. I really hate the last 3 waves on T3 defense since the enemies just won't die unless you unload multiple clips into them, it's almost as bad as invulnerable boss stages imo.

 

The armor also makes choosing which side to help easier, help the corpus and I don't have to deal with the bad armor scaling on grineer when the corpus take over.

[tehous]

I disagree with the way armor currently scales, as well. However, the developers seem intent on using a power function to define the relationship between armor and level, which is why I've merely suggested to decrease the value of the exponent.

Sure, we have exponentially scaling armor but is there any sensible reason to have that? There's valid reasons for having exponentially scaling effective health for sure, but not for armor.

 

The current system invalidates the information in codex entries for mobs, it invalidates mob levels as a measure of difficulty, it is overly complex and incomprehensible.

 

I don't know if your numbers for health scaling is for grineer or for all factions? Do you have the constants for shield scaling etc. too?

If the health scaling is the same, or if they just slapped on a slightly higher exponents/multipliers, it's really really bad. That means that we have different scaling for different factions which is worse than "just" having glaring inconsistencies in the relative effective health of mobs.

e.g. at level 10 a trooper is twice as durable as a heavy gunner, at 20 they're about equal and at 30 the heavy gunner is twice as durable.

Scaling of effective health for a selection of grineer mobs. As is clearly visible in the plot, the relative effective health of one mob compared to another is dependent on the current level. Do note that a log scale is used for effective health to facilitate noticing such differences.

 

Why was the effect of armor cut by a third? Did they think it would solve the problem with high level enemies having high damage mitigation? Is there any sensible reason for doing that? Why not keep the easy to understand 1armor=+1% effective health instead giving me a headache due to needing a calculator to divide by 3 to get the effective health increase?

 

When complaints were raised re the nerf to warframe armor, warframe armor was buffed by up to 50%. Why only 50% instead 300% to fully counter the nerf? 

[Definitegj]

Unless I'm Color Blind and immensely $&*&*#(%& I was hitting a Large Unit shooting fire rounds out of a Torid Looking Launcher Colored Red/Orange and Burnt Yellow with Violet Dera Rounds dealing 100-200 Damage a shot OR Bullets from an Aklex dealing Critical Hits to the Napalm's Head For 1.4k a Crit.

Please show me what is your loadout. 

1.4 headshot crits on lv46 Napalm means you are doing 350 bodyshot crits, meaning 175 regular bodyshots after armor reduction. Will need about 1200 Corrosive damage if assume whole weapon deal corrosive damage.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Definitegj

[Kyte]

I don't know if your numbers for health scaling is for grineer or for all factions? Do you have the constants for shield scaling etc. too?

If the health scaling is the same, or if they just slapped on a slightly higher exponents/multipliers, it's really really bad. That means that we have different scaling for different factions which is worse than "just" having glaring inconsistencies in the relative effective health of mobs.

e.g. at level 10 a trooper is twice as durable as a heavy gunner, at 20 they're about equal and at 30 the heavy gunner is twice as durable.

Damage, health, shields and armor all follow the same basic template:

value = base_value + (base_value * multiplier * (npc_level - base_level)^exponent).

The base value and base level are enemy-dependent.

Multiplier and exponent are as follows:

Damage: 0.012, 1.5

Shields: 0.003, 2.5

Health: 0.003, 2.5

Armor: 0.003, 2.5

They apply to all factions.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Kyte

[Takai]

Me and my team were having serious problems with Grineer heavies (30+) in the void and in alerts... the only thing that was working for me after we encountered, well, mini boss battles with the heavies was; Aklex pure puncture and crit + crit output (corrosion on the sentinel) and Boltor with pure puncture setup, status % increases, and corrosion.

 

For some reason, when the slow firing weapons crit, it affects their health dramatically. 

 

The Acklex or Lex is their Crytonite, I havent really found anything that does it better. Even Vandal Snipetron with pure crit and punc... just does do it as well.

 

Their scaling is a bit strange, and it feels incorrect.