De, It's Time To Let Go: Enemy Armor Has Failed.

[notionphil]

Everything in this forum can be solved by using the right weapon and right mods without changing anything. Get over not being able to use one weapon for the whole game.

 

Actually, your suggestion IS the core problem.

 

When Void and high level Grineer are essentially the endgame (especially now that infested is gone), there is only one right build for high level content.

 

+armor damage.

 

It's not that people can't figure out how to get around Grineer/Void armor. But why should that be the only way to play the game?

 

Building +shields, +flesh, +infested, +robotic is ALWAYS optional. you never, ever have to.

 

But +armor is required on most high level content. Why even put the other elements in, if we can't use them. Just make everything combine to corrosive, if thats all DE wants us to use.

[AmmoRejected]

Everything in this forum can be solved by using the right weapon and right mods without changing anything. Get over not being able to use one weapon for the whole game.

 

That is somehow the opposite of what 2.0 was supposed to accomplish. Was the goal not to make more weapons viable to enjoy? And were elemental mixes and procs not implemented to create a more diverse build pool? What you just said is essentially turning this 2.0 into 1.0 V2, where we use three faction-specific all-powerful weapons, with a build specific to each faction to make it all-powerful, instead of just one all-powerful weapon and build fit for anything.... Congrats man, now we have three end-game builds instead of one.

 

I personally would like to be able to use a weapon I love and enjoy, let the mod build do the talking, and be viable against anything rather than being OP vs one specific. I'm not trying to say make ALL weapons OP vs all three, but do something. I mean I think armor should just go. I'm a fan of it yeah, and I played the fool out of ME2 and enjoyed every bit of it's combat/armor-shield system, but let's face it if there is armor it's going to get messed up. 1.0 had terrible scaling and things became cruel for non-AI past 150 (maybe lower) and now all they've done is condense it. Armor still scales but at a lower level. 30 is the new 100 but that didn't make it better. For the most part the imbalance is unseen since we all have fairly decent weaponry already or we rely on a party to help us get there quickly, but I level solo about 50% of the time and you can see it easily in the top of the range and the bottom. In the high end the armor is whacked and things get funky, and in the low end you hope it doesn't because it sucks to go leveling your new gun (Sicarus to anyone curious. I know, I'm late with is one) dropping them left and right with a single burst and then you get one that takes an entire clip all by itself! Granted this is low weaponry vs low level, but it's still similar with top-level, we just rip everything alive easier with those guns.

 

inb4 crit sayers, my Sicarus is not equipped with multishot/crit dmg/crit chance. It's all raw damage boost thus far. Crit does kill faster, but still 2-3 bursts. (point-blank head bursts fyi)

 

 

Edit: I agree with Nationphil. Instead of AI rainbows, we have +Armor Corrosives.

Edited December 16, 2013 by AmmoRejected

[Thaumatos]

Why does % armor even increase by level in the first place?  Just give the Grineer more HP as the level goes up.

[Thaumatos]

Yeah but it was balanced relatively well in ME3. DE likes to tell you to take the 99% enemy damage reduction and suck it, because exponential scaling. Anything will get stupid with exponential scaling.

 

I'm kind of disappointed really, I came back for Damage 2.0 to find armor still annoying as ever. Still, at least only Grineer seem to have $&*&*#(%& armor scaling now, so it's not all that bad.

It was balanced in ME3 because numbers in general were balanced in ME3.

 

The wide range of damage amounts and super-powered weapons in Warframe is a far cry from ME3's level of balance.

[OblivionNecroninja]

Why does % armor even increase by level in the first place?  Just give the Grineer more HP as the level goes up.

Because DE are stupid.

No, serioulsy, it's the ONLY explanation I can think of.

[notionphil]

Because DE are stupid.

No, serioulsy, it's the ONLY explanation I can think of.

 

BC they want us to feel like we are hitting a really durable enemy when we see single digit damage...and think 'wow he's tough'.

 

The issue with this is that it's the only resistance that scales thus, at high levels, its becomes the only required damage type. Honestly, either everything should scale (horrible idea), or nothing should scale.

[Mhyrria]

Effective HP. Essentially, it is HP / (1 - DMG reduction%). Example, for every 100 armor = 10% DMG reduction. So for a 500 Armor 1000 HP enemy, its effective HP is 1000 / (1 - 50%) = 2000. Without armor, 1000HP would take 10 shots of 100 DMG. But with 500 armor, 100 DMG shot will only do 50 DMG so it would take twice as many shots now to kill 1000HP 500 Armor enemy.

 

I disagree with the idea that armor giving damage reduction is a bad idea. Successful games like the DIablo series, most MMOrpgs (WoW, GW2, etc), Path of Exile, Marvel Heroes, LoL, DotA, etc.. use this system and they have been successful with it. The scaling is what needs to be balance. I do not know their formula and whatever they use, but they should fix the scaling. At lv30+, the scaling massively jumps. Doing headshots on a lv60 rocket launcher guy still takes a considerable amount of time and bullets. Not only do they scale up armor but HP as well. They seem to not realize that effective HP skyrockets doing that.

 

Math example again. Using same premise as above and assuming every 10 levels enemies get 100 more armor and they start with 300 armor. So a lv10 enemy with 500 HP would have 400 armor, lv20 would have 500 armor and so forth. So a lv60 enemy with 500 HP will have an effective HP of 5000. That is 10x its normal HP, now what happens if you scale up HP as well. Each point of HP scaled up is 10x for its effective HP, e.g. a just adding 500HP = adding 5000 effective HP. You need do be doing 10x more shooting just to keep up with the armor scaling alone! 

 

While the enemies scale, we dont. We are stuck with the same damage we can deal from the moment we start the mission. We have no means to counter their effective HP. They need keep the scaling in check. AND give us means to counter armor. Armor reduction mods that reduce by percentage. This is not as effective in the early game where enemies barely have armor, but very useful in the later phase. Guns that ignore armor but deal low damage. This opens up to more builds, trading flat damage for armor penetration, etc.

 

TLDR: Keep a ceiling or a balanced curve for the HP and armor scaling. And give us means to counter armor that can scale up as well.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Mhyrria

[LtZefar]

Diablo series did it well because at least they stopped at some point and the damage you could dish was actually rather high compared to their damage.

Also if you used Damage reduced by XX you could negate almost any damage from the enemy. Because it would reduce their base damage which hasn't changed that much. It was just that they got a lot of % bonus in damage later on.

 

Someone suggested in another thread or this one to make the Armor like a shield that you can deplete and then comes the normal health. So they would still have normal health and toxin or slash could bypass that armor by attacking the health instead. It'd be a far better system for this game.

[afmos]

It doesn't really matter if armor increases or health increases, in the end more armor=more health.  The problem is the non-linear scaling.  For example, going from level 10 to 11 might result in 1% increase in effective HP, while going from level 50 to 51 might result in 10% more effective HP.

 

Damage 2.0 was supposed to remove the need for using "armor ignoring" weapons/mods.  All it has really done is force the use of weapons that have the most puncture and/or highest combined damage to make corrosive damage as high as possible.

[notionphil]

I disagree with the idea that armor giving damage reduction is a bad idea.

 

The issue is not that that armor gives damage reduction.

 

The issue is that out of 5 resistance types, only armor gives damage reduction. That makes Armor the most important type to build against, thus negating much of the value of having 10+ damage types.

 

The games you mentioned like Diablo etc don't have 4 other 'alternatives' to armor. Things are either armored or unarmored. DE tried to take the armor mechanic and squeeze it into a 'resistance' system.  The problem is, when we are building weapons, we have to choose to be good at one or the other.

 

But there is no choice, because nothing else scales. I can stand not doing bonus damage to shields, flesh or infested. However, doing next to zero damage to armor is a death sentence.

 

That is why armor scaling is broken, not because of the numbers, or how 'hard' it makes mobs. Simply because it removes choice from the game

[Otaiken]

The issue is not that that armor gives damage reduction.

 

The issue is that out of 5 resistance types, only armor gives damage reduction. That makes Armor the most important type to build against, thus negating much of the value of having 10+ damage types.

 

The games you mentioned like Diablo etc don't have 4 other 'alternatives' to armor. Things are either armored or unarmored. DE tried to take the armor mechanic and squeeze it into a 'resistance' system.  The problem is, when we are building weapons, we have to choose to be good at one or the other.

 

But there is no choice, because nothing else scales. I can stand not doing bonus damage to shields, flesh or infested. However, doing next to zero damage to armor is a death sentence.

 

That is why armor scaling is broken, not because of the numbers, or how 'hard' it makes mobs. Simply because it removes choice from the game

 

The problem is that even WITH the correct damage type setup you're still doing very little damage to high level armored targets. It might be a bug, but either way even with corrosive + puncture weapons I'm still only tickling lvl 50 Grineer. That's ridiculous. The armor scaling makes it that even with the correct damage type at some point it will simply not help you.

[Malora_Sidewinder]

I still think Damage 1.0 was superior. Yes, the enemies had armour. Yes, the armour did eventually scale itself up to 100% damage mitigation. And yes, you could bypass that armour completely with AP mods or innate armour ignore weapons. No horrible convoluted table of resistances. Just "stick this mod on and you will be able to effectively harm all enemies, no matter their level".

Your post made it extremely obvious to me that you never did Void Defense III missions.

 

It got to the point where a single heavy gunner would require a trinity hit, nova ultimate, and TWO FULL CLIPS of a twice-polarized maximum modded strun wraith *and* soma to die.

 

and the rest of the wave was behind them.

 

The idea that damage 1.0 was better is completely asinine and untrue; it's not even a matter of opinion, 2.0 is much better all across the board. finally, most weapons are USEABLE as opposed to boltor/soma/stun wraith or GG at higher levels. the idea that a weapon should require armor ignore to be good is ridiculous.

 

oh, also... mentioning AP mods in such a light also pointedly highlights your lack of experience with upper level play. The amount of armor ignore damage that would give to a gun was so slight as to be largely irrelevant past level 100.

[Malora_Sidewinder]

 even with corrosive + puncture weapons I'm still only tickling lvl 50 Grineer.

your gun sucks. plain and simple.

 at level 50 you require stronger weapons to remain relevant. the soma is a great example and my personal favorite, but synapse, vectis, boar prime (especially) strun wraith and sobek are all like getting hit by a bus would have been to Tiny Tim to level 50 enemies.

 

plus modding correctly is clutch. rainbowing for soma isn't effective anymore, but the mandatory crit build and split chamber functions well with increased fire rate and puncture (shred) as well as corrosive, and ammo efficiency is helped tremendously by ammo mutator and a carrier sentinel.

 

if you'd like the mod list that i just used to solo a ceres survival to 20 minutes, i'll be glad to post it.

[Otaiken]

your gun sucks. plain and simple.

at level 50 you require stronger weapons to remain relevant. the soma is a great example and my personal favorite, but synapse, vectis, boar prime (especially) strun wraith and sobek are all like getting hit by a bus would have been to Tiny Tim to level 50 enemies.

plus modding correctly is clutch. rainbowing for soma isn't effective anymore, but the mandatory crit build and split chamber functions well with increased fire rate and puncture (shred) as well as corrosive, and ammo efficiency is helped tremendously by ammo mutator and a carrier sentinel.

if you'd like the mod list that i just used to solo a ceres survival to 20 minutes, i'll be glad to post it.

I use Latron Prime, that is a gun that is clearly MEANT to kill armored targets.. let's see then shall we:

25 Impact, 25 Slash, 201 Puncture

378 Blast

378 Corrosive

Blast has -25% against armor. With the bonuses of puncture and corrosive against armor I should be doing over 1k damage per shot on Grineer.

I'm doing 45 damage per shot on level 50ish Grineer. (bodyshot) I tested it times and times again, against corrupted lancers, heavies, high level Grineer etc. It's consistent 40-45 damage. I have the numbers, this is the reality, you have elitist rambling.

Mind explaining how is that possible? Working as intended? I think not. Fully anti-grineer modded gun does 4% of its damage... makes sense, current armor system is either $&*&*#(%& or broken. And if ther's just a small pool of guns that are usable on higher levels.. well THEN WE'RE BACK TO THE WHOLE DAMN ISSUE WITH 1.0 AGAIN!!

 

Oh, and I have Strun Wraith and it suffers from the same issue, as the armor goes up... even with the correct mods the damage goes to hell. And Ceres survival for 20 minutes is not huge achievement btw... solo or not.

 

Also, just to be on the same page here, you realize I'm talking about level 50 enemies in the current system right? That is the equivalent of level 100+ enemies in the damage 1.0 I'm saying this because you won't reach level 50 Grineer in 20 minutes on Ceres survival.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

So, I just did Ceres, Nuovo survival for the hell of it. Enemy level at 20 minutes is 29. What is very interesting is the progression of armor scaling. When I started I was doing 936 damage on average to Elite Lancers around level 25, 1100 to Elite Lancers below 25 (23 ish). At level 29 I was doing just 580 damage to Elite Lancers. That is damage almost halved in span of 6 levels.

 

Feel free to do your own testing, but armor scaling is DEFINITELY broken in some way.

 

All of this with the build I posted above. Bodyshots of course.

 

 

if you'd like the mod list that i just used to solo a ceres survival to 20 minutes, i'll be glad to post it.

 

I was still oneshotting basic Grineer at your 20 minutes Ceres survival with my "sucky" gun. But please post your UBER build so I can play the game right. It won't change the fact that lvl 29 Grineer have around 50% damage reduction corrosive/puncture or not.. but who knows. Maybe I'll be doing 585 damage per shot instead of 580.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[FattyFat]

I use Latron Prime, that is a gun that is clearly MEANT to kill armored targets.. let's see then shall we:

 

Do you have Point Strike, Vital Sense, and Hammer Shot equipped? Latron Prime really needs a crit build to be effective. 700% crit mult at 37.5% chance really makes it shine. The 21% status chance from hammer shot is a nice bonus (lets you spam proc viral if you want, this demolishes health).

 

My Latron Prime does 2.2k body crits and 11k headshot crits to T3 Heavy Gunners (OHKO). This is with R9 Serration, split chamber, point strike, vital sense, hammer shot, cold + corrosive.

 

Edit: oops fixed point blank to point strike.

Edited December 16, 2013 by FattyFat

[Wiegraf]

The Nyx alert earlier today pretty much came as a slap to the face.

 

While I admit I didn't have a proper setup for it (was in a hurry, on my lunch break from work and at home), some of my weaponry would have been able to deal relatively well with armor and didn't.

 

I know the parallel sometimes gets shut down, but Mass Effect 2 and 3 did it rather well with Armor being a type of buffer that was effective against a few types of damage and thrumphed by fire. It also made it possible to have enemies without Health but instead only Shields and Armor (robotic enemies, in fact) or living enemies with heavy armor or any combination of the three.

 

Of course, only shields could recover if given time but then, you had abilities able to disrupt that too. So perhaps Armor should work as a type of buffer in a similar way? Strong against certain damages but eaten up by others? Somewhat like Rhino's Iron Skin? As for Warframes themselves, I'm thinking a base damage reduction fits since other than the aforementionned Iron Skin, I wouldn't see how a coat of Armor would fit on frames other than Rhino himself, unless another mechanic/effect was brought in by a specific power.

 

I see Armor as a finite, non-replenishable kind of 'Health', actual Health as a finite yet possibly replenishable ressource and Shields as a constantly replenishing ressource.

 

Then again, maybe Damage 2.0 is still getting fiddled with and a month from now, things will have properly fallen into place.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Wiegraf

[Otaiken]

Do you have Point Strike, Vital Sense, and Hammer Shot equipped? Latron Prime really needs a crit build to be effective. 700% crit mult at 37.5% chance really makes it shine. The 21% status chance from hammer shot is a nice bonus (lets you spam proc viral if you want, this demolishes health).

My Latron Prime does 2.2k body crits and 11k headshot crits to T3 Heavy Gunners (OHKO). This is with R9 Serration, split chamber, point strike, vital sense, hammer shot, cold + corrosive.

Edit: oops fixed point blank to point strike.

I tested all sorts of builds and the damage reduction is consistent on level 50 enemies. So if I crit I do simply 80-90 damage instead of 40-45. If I crit on head I do 160. 11k crit damage would simply get reduced to 440 damage and that is not nearly enough to OHKO lvl 50 Heavy.

Mind you that the damage reduction takes huge leaps in just a couple of levels. So you could do huge damage to level 45 and then go straight to 1% of that just 5 levels later.

Anyway, crits make no difference.. yes, you'll do double or even quadruple damage but it's kinda pointless if it gets reduced by 96%. Also, by slotting so many crit mods you sacrifice straight up damage.. so you crit.. but you crit from lower base. Crit mods are definitely not a solution to damage reduction.

Unless crits bypass armor... though I didn't see evidence of that yet. Though I have seen some strange things. For example 8k headshot crit on heavy that normally takes 180 damage on bodyshot... but I have no idea how it works. It seems too random to reproduce.

But even if crits were answer to the damage reduction problem, you're still back to the whole: "I need this one specific build to be viable on high levels." Which damage 2.0 tried to avoid.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Polsvoyce]

The more i use damage 2,0 the more i am starting to hate the game. I gave it a good run to try and get use to it but i can not stand it. I just want to get a gun out of my inventory and not worry about it not doing any damage to that kind of enemy.

 

I really want this too. That's not to say I don't want customization and all that dmg 2.0 can provide, but I'd really like to see resistances and Armor removed. Those are the two things stopping a player from just picking up a gun and using it.

[Malora_Sidewinder]

I use Latron Prime, that is a gun that is clearly MEANT to kill armored targets.. let's see then shall we:

25 Impact, 25 Slash, 201 Puncture

378 Blast

378 Corrosive

Blast has -25% against armor. With the bonuses of puncture and corrosive against armor I should be doing over 1k damage per shot on Grineer.

I'm doing 45 damage per shot on level 50ish Grineer. (bodyshot) I tested it times and times again, against corrupted lancers, heavies, high level Grineer etc. It's consistent 40-45 damage. I have the numbers, this is the reality, you have elitist rambling.

Mind explaining how is that possible? Working as intended? I think not. Fully anti-grineer modded gun does 4% of its damage... makes sense, current armor system is either $&*&*#(%& or broken. And if ther's just a small pool of guns that are usable on higher levels.. well THEN WE'RE BACK TO THE WHOLE DAMN ISSUE WITH 1.0 AGAIN!!

 

Oh, and I have Strun Wraith and it suffers from the same issue, as the armor goes up... even with the correct mods the damage goes to hell. And Ceres survival for 20 minutes is not huge achievement btw... solo or not.

 

Also, just to be on the same page here, you realize I'm talking about level 50 enemies in the current system right? That is the equivalent of level 100+ enemies in the damage 1.0 I'm saying this because you won't reach level 50 Grineer in 20 minutes on Ceres survival.

 

A few points.

 

1. Negative damage elementals reduce a small amount of efficacy against *all* types of damage, not just blast. This means your corrosive is not as powerful as it otherwise would be. I'm not sure this is working as intended, but it's certainly *how* it currently works.

2. If you're talking corrupted, their resistences are haywire and do not work the same way as their factioned counterparts.

3. Latron Prime isn't very strong, and armor isn't JUST based off puncture. It's reduced slash damage is irrelevant because your slash damage isn't high in the first place, but impact is neutral to armor and damage is finalized off all 3, not just the type that's strong against what your fighting.

I think this is the point you missed. The fact that your puncture is good is offset by the fact that impact sucks, *and* you have an element weak to armor.

 

Let's compare your gun to my current soma, then.

your stats add up to an average of 1008 damage per shot with resistances not applied.

 

level 7 serration, level 5 infected clip, stormbringer, cryo rounds, point strike, multishot, vital sense, and shred.

this gives me the base stats of

4.4 impact

17.6 puncture

22 slash

19.8 cold

79.2 corrosive

 

at first glance, your latron prime has higher puncture *and* impact with lower slash, and your corrosive is several times more than mine.

your damage should be laughing at mine, by this scale.

 

but here's the fun part, where a gun is more than the sum of its stats. my critical chance is 75% exactly, and each bullet (factoring in multishot above) deals 6.6 original damage by way of crit. Let's ignore non-crits entirely for this exercise. Elemental damage is multiplied by crit as well as regular, so a crit brings my damage total to

29 impact

116 puncture

145.2 slash

130.68 cold

522.72 corrosive(!)

 

 

ignoring damage mitigation and enhancements by way of resistance, my final damage score is

943.6 per bullet, and i'm willing to reduce my damage per magazine by 25% to entirely eliminate non-crits because they aren't worth anything.

 

again, your damage is *still* higher. so why is my gun vastly outpreforming yours in practice?

 

This is where elemental mitigation comes in. Your blast reduces the overal efficicay of your entire damage output, actually reducing the benefit you'd get from corrosive. my secondary element of cold is NEUTRAL to armor, so the only detriment on my gun is slash damage, meaning my corrosive and puncture damage is mitigated minimally. you have poor slash, poor impact, and a detrimental element. plus soma has much much much higher rate of fire, and corrosive stacks; that is to say a higher rate of fire with stronger corrosive base added to a weaker detrimental effect means my damage output remains astronomical even at the highest levels of play.

 

It isn't the damage table. You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle. Upper level enemies *need* to be stronger (scaling harder as well) than lower level enemies, and as you get to higher levels of play, the weaker or less specialized guns will get phased out in terms of practicality compared to stronger weapons with better builds behind them.

 

you're expecting to go to high level enemies with a gun designed for mid level play and do just as well; latron prime is just not a top tier weapon.

 

with damage 1.0 it meant only weapons of specific damage types were useable at higher levels, leading to a specific pool of weapons being in the small minority of what was "useable," with all of them sharing a damage type. with damage 2.0 it means that while there is also a smaller pool of weapons being useable in upper levels of difficulty, the damage types are spread out, with more builds being possible. The problem of guns being better than others is still there, but finally there's some diversity therein.

 

Also, I'm not saying Soma is the best gun in the game. it isn't. it's easily tier 1, probably top 5 overall, but vectis, boar prime, and synapse are all just straight better under most circumstances. your latron prime is awesome and a lot of fun to use at low, mid, and even begginning top-level difficulty, but when the game starts to scale to extents best defined as "astronomical." it can't compete anymore... which is how it SHOULD be.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Malora_Sidewinder

[notionphil]

1. Negative damage elementals reduce a small amount of efficacy against *all* types of damage, not just blast. This means your corrosive is not as powerful as it otherwise would be. I'm not sure this is working as intended, but it's certainly *how* it currently works.

 

This is where elemental mitigation comes in. Your blast reduces the overal efficicay of your entire damage output, actually reducing the benefit you'd get from corrosive.

 

Where did you get that hypothesis from?

 

If you are suggesting that one damage type on a weapon positively or negatively affects the other damage types on that weapon, you are either incorrect or in possession of some information that no one else has.

 

Please cite your source, as this is contrary to everything posted about the damage system.

[ZeroInferno]

I'm sorry but I gotta say something against the current system too. 

 

When the damn Ogris, a powerful rocket launcher, does 80 damage to a lvl 60 heavy gunner in void something is beyond wrong here.

 

I understand that they wanted to add balance to the game, and make it more varied overall, but this system is actually worse than dmg1.0 now.

Let me put it this way, in dmg1.0 even at max lvl 130 enemies, I along with my team would still be able to stand up against them and eventually take them down with enough effort. 

Now with Ogris(just an example here) doing only 80 damage to lvl 60 heavies, S#&$ just flew out the window more or less. Even if by chance i could have enough time away from the rest of the enemies, it would take me half an hour to completely kill a heavy by myself using the Ogris. This is just stupid now. 

Edited December 16, 2013 by ZeroInferno

[Malora_Sidewinder]

 

Please cite your source, as this is contrary to everything posted about the damage system.

I agree, it shouldn't be behaving this way according to what's been written. The source is myself, and the experiments me and my team have been running recently. We noticed at first that damage wasn't really behaving according to what it should have been, mostly by virtue that we would craft builds based around what was written, and in practice the numbers weren't lining up at all. We checked a few different times over a few different runs and found that our theories were perfect logical matches to the system given, but our builds weren't performing as expected. This isn't to say that our builds were usually not strong, as occasionally we'd find weird ways where our weapons were much stronger than expected.

 

At first we were baffled, but we recorded the RESULTS and went backwards to find out how we got there. The only explanation that was consistent across all of our collective experiences were the interactions i outlined above. the exception here is corrupted. we can't find any consistency to the damage of corrupted, and collectively we feel that the two strongest possibilities are

A. corrupted armor scaling is bugged

B. the damage tables for corrupted specifically go haywire at certain, as of yet undefined points.

 

I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm going to ask you to experiment for yourself and get back to me on this one, by PM if neccesary. I'd love a few more players to check into this.

 

My example for proof here is above. If damage worked as advertised currently, that kids latron prime would be doing huge damage, and it isn't. that can't be adequetledy explained by armor alone. the only way to get the numbers he's getting is by the formula that i outlined above, where elementals and damage types scale off each other as opposed to individually.

 

again, i think that damage FUNCTION is currently bugged. if working as intended his latron prime should match if not exceed my soma, which is demonstrably not the case.

[Otaiken]

I'm sorry, are you arguing FOR the current system.. or AGAINST it. Cause you're just proving my point that armor calculations are either broken or stupid.

Puncture semi automatic rifle should be working against the faction it is clearly designed to work against. I'm not gonna argue tiers or mid tiers and such, that is beside the point. This is hard to get weapon, it's a prime. It's clearly meant to be used against armored targets. Yet it fails at this task and gets outcalssed by slashing weapon?

That is simply proving the system is bad rather than otherwise.

 

Even if Latron Prime got buffed by 100%, that is if DE doubled it damage. It would be doing 80 damage instead. It is not the problem of the weapon, it's the problem of the system.

 

Also, I don't like Soma and Synapse... should I be forced to use them. And if crit chance is the new best build then the whole point of damage 2.0 goes right out of the window.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Malora_Sidewinder]

I'm sorry, are you arguing FOR the current system.. or AGAINST it. Cause you're just proving my point that armor calculations are either broken or stupid. 

arguing FOR current system. even as bugged, the problem is still solvable, it just requires trial and error and a bit of ingenuity. not saying i'm smarter than you, just a bit more creative... or maybe patient would be a better word.

 

and in either case, even as bugged again, the system is still superior to the old by way of diversity.

if and when they fix it to work as intended, your current gun will be exceptionally powerful and will mow down those grineer you're having such a hard time with, which in damage 1.0 it would do nothing by comparison. When the (probably) inevitable fix comes down to damage 2.0, your gun will function.

 

until then you need to either find a build that works under the malfunctioning damage system or find a new gun entirely, both of which are relatively easy and painless.

 

in either case 2.0 is better than 1.0.