Yet Another Crit Rework Topic

[Xrylene]

Critical Hits: Shots versus vulnerable areas, such as headshots, Infested limbs, or areas marked by Banshee's Sonar cause Critical Damage. Weapons by default deal 150% Critical Damage(1.5x multiplier), and will only crit if the attack is a headshot or charged attack(replacing melee charge damage), but Critical Chance can be added to give a chance of critical damage regardless of where you hit an enemy or whether your attack is charged. Note that a crit can't apply twice, so you cannot randomly crit on a headshot, since you are already dealing Critical Damage.

 

Vital Sense: Grants a 20/40/60/80/100% chance of dealing Critical Damage.

 

Point Strike: Increases your Critical Damage multiplier by +0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1.

 

Hammer Shot: Increases your Critical Damage multiplier by +0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 and improves status effects(Would prefer this also not be a chance but that is for another thread)

 

Critical Delay: Increases your Critical Damage multiplier by +0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5, but decreases your firing rate by 5/10/15/20/25%

 

Hollow Point: Removed or replaced(more than 100% max crit chance is unnecessary)

 

Now, I figure this might raise some questions, so I have some potential answers:

 

1: Why rework crit from a multiplicative chance to an additive one?

Because as it is right now, crit is just an inferior version of Multishot, it only exists to stack with Multishot.

 

2: Why make a maxed crit chance mod 100%? Why not keep it random?

So that people who want the damage benefits of crit, but who don't like the RNG can still get a guarantee of dealing bonus damage if they max it. If you prefer random crits, there is nothing stopping you from keeping it from being maxed and using those mod points elsewhere.

 

3. Why make headshots/sonar targets/other vulnerable points count as crits?

So that Critical Damage mods can be re-purposed to also function as "headshot" mods, to prevent absurd damage spikes from both critting and headshotting, and to have a simple system to base things off of. Banshee's Sonar for example would treat the hightlighted area as a vulnerable point and increase Critical Damage against that target.

 

4. What happens to "crit weapons"?

They are no longer required to be built as crit, opening them up to more builds and players. The damage they would lose from losing their crit should be directly added to their base damage, meaning a Soma for example with it's 30% chance for 200% bonus damage should have it's base damage of 10 increased by 60%, resulting in 16 base damage.

 

5. But crit makes weapons unique!

It doesn't, actually, A weapon with crit and a weapon without crit can be functionally the same so long as their DPS remains the same, since crit only acts as an effective DPS multiplier. The only real difference between a crit weapon and a non-crit weapon is one deals reliable damage, and the other has damage spikes, but also periods of lower damage. Removing crit as a fake distinction between weapons also does something else, it provides incentive for DE to add real differences between weapons, whether that means gradually regenerating ammo for a ammo hog like the Grakata, or punch innate punch through for heavy machine guns like the Gorgon and Supra, there is potential for unique weapons that is not being realized.

 

6. You mentioned replacing melee charge damage with critical damage, meaning a charged attack will only be 50% more damaging than a normal attack, doesn't this mean melee is going to suck?

If things were unchanged, yes, definitely. However, melee is pretty bad all around with the exception of huge charge damage weapons such as the Galatine and the Orthos Prime. Ideally, base melee damage would be boosted across the board, which would in turn increase charge damage. From there, it's mostly a matter of getting the numbers right, Melee charged attacks might result in higher critical damage than guns get by default, for example.

 

7: You only mention rifle mods, what about pistol/melee/shotgun?

While I only mention the one set, I think either each set should get the same mod values(with the possible exception of melee) or mods should be combined. Rifle and shotgun mods at the very least could stand to get fused, which could also fix other issues such as Contagious Spread being nearly unobtainable while Infected Clip drops from two much more common mobs.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Xrylene

[DeejayPwny]

I'll continue reading, but first things first, this kinda irked me. Why do you have the roles of vital sense (currently CRIT damage) and point strike (currently CRIT chance) reversed in your suggestion?

[Xrylene]

I'll continue reading, but first things first, this kinda irked me. Why do you have the roles of vital sense (currently CRIT damage) and point strike (currently CRIT chance) reversed in your suggestion?

 

I forgot which was which, to be honest. It made sense to me that Vital Sense would be crit chance(since it senses vitals, so helps you hit weak points), and Point Strike would be crit damage, since it sounds more like it hits a point with greater power.

[Liverslices]

Ok... here we go

 

1: Because if it was flat, then a low level weapon would crit the same as a high level one. No bueno

 

2: If you have 100% crit, then its not crit. Its that simple

 

3: What happens to enemies that don't have weak spots? Like a drone for example

 

4: Removing the somas crit stats and buffing it to 16 damage... You do realize that the MK1-BRATON does more damage than that right? Crit stats are what make crit weapons possible.

 

5: Yes crit stats do make a weapon unique. How many crit rifles are there? 3. Shotguns? 2. Not very many of them, making them unique. And if the Devs want, they can give the gorgon punch through if they want.

 

6: ....you didn't put #6

 

7: I don't understand why you think its a good idea to remove crit from weapons, but make it better in melee. But anyway, there are only 2 crit melee weapons. However there are a ton of charge weapons. Why would you take away their uniqueness? That doesn't make sense.

 

8: combining rifle and shotgun mods is not a good idea for 1 very good reason: rifles and shotguns have different characteristics. Are you going to put eagle eye on a shotgun? are you going to put lower pellet spread on rifle?   

 

 

Im sure you mean well, but the crit system shouldn't go away.

 

Fell free to correct me, I will edit this as im sure I made mistakes.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Liverslices

[Revel72]

I 'm sure you mean well, but the crit system shouldn't go away.

What shooter game has crits? Warframe is pretty much first on this and by far WORSE on critical hit things. Just so awful as hell.

 

CoD, No crit. Crysis sequel hasn't seen any crits at all. Doom no crits, Lost planet game series no crits, Borderlands game series no crits only head shot multiplier. Metroid Prime no crits, Duke Nukem no crits. Seriously DE remove this critical hit system it is so bad.

 

If you are going to say that critical hit shots should belong on new games. It just doesn't make any @(*()$ sense. Banshee is one and only good example of what critical hit should be. (Sonar)

[Xrylene]

Ok... here we go

 

1: Because if it was flat, then a low level weapon would crit the same as a high level one. No bueno

 

2: If you have 100% crit, then its not crit. Its that simple

 

3: What happens to enemies that don't have weak spots? Like a drone for example

 

4: Removing the somas crit stats and buffing it to 16 damage... You do realize that the MK1-BRATON does more damage than that right? Crit stats are what make crit weapons possible.

 

5: Yes crit stats do make a weapon unique. How many crit rifles are there? 3. Shotguns? 2. Not very many of them, making them unique. And if the Devs want, they can give the gorgon punch through if they want.

 

6: ....you didn't put #6

 

7: I don't understand why you think its a good idea to remove crit from weapons, but make it better in melee. But anyway, there are only 2 crit melee weapons. However there are a ton of charge weapons. Why would you take away their uniqueness? That doesn't make sense.

 

8: combining rifle and shotgun mods is not a good idea for 1 very good reason: rifles and shotguns have different characteristics. Are you going to put eagle eye on a shotgun? are you going to put lower pellet spread on rifle?   

 

 

Im sure you mean well, but the crit system shouldn't go away.

 

Fell free to correct me, I will edit this as im sure I made mistakes.

 

1. Are you implying that higher level weapons should be crit based? I see two problems with that, one being that if anything, a higher level weapon should reward accuracy more(since by then you should be more skilled), and two look at the Grakata, it's an easy to get weapon that is entirely based on crit and RNG.

 

2. Then don't max it yourself. If you like it to be random, keep it one rank from max, but don't ruin it for people who don't like randomness. Also, the game where crit originated from(D&D) had ways to get guaranteed crits, one example was a coup de grace, where you would automatically hit and get a critical hit versus a helpless target because you took the time to aim a strike at their vitals. Another if I recall is an ability assassins had that allowed them to study a target for a couple rounds to aid them in targeting their vitals, once again acting as an auto-crit.

 

3. Glad you asked, Drones, like Moas, have a small spot that you could describe as being the "head" or control module, if it works for Moas, why not make it apply to drones too? As for bosses that only possess vulnerable points and are otherwise immune, critical damage would always apply, and so would need to be taken into account when scaling their health.

 

4. Actually, no, the MK1 Braton does less damage than the Soma, and here's why. The Mk1 deals 17 damage per shot, at a rate of 5.8 shots per second, while the Soma would be dealing 16 damage per shot at a rate of 15 shots per second. This results in 98.6 DPS for the Braton Mk1(~101 DPS if we add in the 2.5% damage increase from moving it's crit to base damage), while the Soma deals 240 DPS, which is in fact the same DPS it does with it's crit normally. The only difference is the Soma will do it's damage consistently, on every shot, not on a percentage of shots. Also, due to it's high accuracy, it would actually benefit quite nicely with crit damage mods because it can score headshots easily, still making it a more efficient "crit weapon" than less accurate rifles.

 

5. Define how crit makes a weapon unique then. As is, crit's function is to increase the base DPS of a weapon by a percentage over an extended period, with the short term having spikes of damage. If we had two guns, one which dealt 16 damage per shot, another that did 10, but had a 30% chance to crit for 300% damage, they would be functionally identical, the only difference is one would be inconsistent. So what I'm gathering from you is that you consider inconsistency to be a unique feature of weapons that must be preserved? How would you like a weapon that dealt 1 damage per hit, fired 15 times per second, and dealt 3100% damage 50% of the time? You'd deal 1 damage half the time, and 31 damage the other half, resulting in 16 average damage per hit, in other words, the exact same damage output as the Soma, and even less consistent. Would that be the ideal unique weapon then?

 

6. I fixed it.

 

7. You seem to misunderstand what I'm doing to melee. I'm making it so that charged attacks are crits, and thus scale with crit damage, and suggesting normal swings have their damage buffed up. This means that if you wanted to build a "crit weapon", you could either build a lot of crit damage(charge damage) on a weapon like the Galatine, and do heavy spikes of damage, or max out crit chance on a faster attacking weapon and deal "charge damage" on every hit. It's a buff to melee across the board no matter how you look at it. And when it comes to melee uniqueness, we have an overabundance of melee weapons, that's the problem. Letting some stay inconsistent doesn't magically make them unique, in fact what makes weapons like the Zoren unique is the Zorencopter, which is something that result sin an actual mechanical difference, not a consistency difference.

 

8. There are already mods that are specific to certain weapons within a class, there are for example mods that only work on assault type rifles, and of course the bow and thrown melee mods. What I'm suggesting is fusing mod slike Point Blank and Serration, or Infected Clip and Contagious Spread together, to free up the mod list. Otherwise, why not make snipers use different mod? Bows? Etc.

 

 

As for Revel72, he's got the right idea. Borderlands is the only recent game that I think got it right, every enemy has a weakpoint that has a critical multiplier, "crit weapons" tend to be very accurate weapons like sniper rifles, rewarding pinpoint accuracy. If I had my way, I'd get rid of random crits altogether and only have critical damage multipliers, but this game seems to attract the types of players who will defend crit forever, so I'm compromising by letting you guys keep your RNG if you want to, so long as players who don't want it can choose to make it a guarantee.

[MECT_HET]

No suggestions on melee. Oh, that's not good.

[Xrylene]

No suggestions on melee. Oh, that's not good.

 

What's the problem, exactly?

[Shikazure]

What shooter game has crits? Warframe is pretty much first on this and by far WORSE on critical hit things. Just so awful as hell.

 

CoD, No crit. Crysis sequel hasn't seen any crits at all. Doom no crits, Lost planet game series no crits, Borderlands game series no crits only head shot multiplier. Metroid Prime no crits, Duke Nukem no crits. Seriously DE remove this critical hit system it is so bad.

 

If you are going to say that critical hit shots should belong on new games. It just doesn't make any @(*()$ sense. Banshee is one and only good example of what critical hit should be. (Sonar)

TF2

[Liverslices]

This is in response to post #6... My quoting is messed up and I don't know why. Anywho

 

1: No high level weapons should not be crit based. You suggest that a flat crit damage bonus be applied. That means that an unranked soma will be getting the same crits as a rank 30, forma x4 soma. That means that you either have an OP unranked weapon or a crappy rank 30 one.

 

2: If a person has 100% crit on a weapon, and I have 25%, who is gonna do more damage? The other person. Since momma didn't raise no fool, I will definetally mod my gun to do the same thing the other guy is doing. That IS what will happen. No doubt.

               EDIT: Don't forget Loki and Ash!! While invisible they get guaranteed crits!

 

3: This is making more since, but it is already in place. If I shoot grineer in the head, I get a x2 multiplier. If it makes you feel happy we can take a yellow highlighter and make headshots bright yellow. But that doesn't make it any different than what is already in the game. BUT this cannot be the only way to get a multiplier on your gun... Imagine a crowd of grineer, too many heads...

 

4: Ok ok you got me. The Mk-1 is a horrible gun no question. But how about my favorite gun: the Braton Prime (9.8 rps, 179 damage). This is a gun with no crit stats worth modding for, but it is better than a soma (assuming the soma doesn't have crit mods). Are you really going to ruin a perfectly fine gun like the soma?

 

5: You prove my point. A crit weapon is different, thus it is unique. After mastering most of the non-crit weapons out there, a high level player gets bored. He picks up a crit weapon and all of the sudden he has to learn how to mod it a different way. Taaaddaaaa, you have a unique weapon!!!

 

6: Thank you for fixing, my OCD was killing me lol

 

7: Yes you are right, we do have a ton of melee weapons. As far as melee weapons I have nothing to say. I can see the good and bad of the way it is and the way you describe it. *raises glass in a toast*

 

8: The problem with freeing up mods by combining rifle and shotgun mods is that Serration+heavy caliber on a shotgun would make shotguns OP as hek *badum tsss* The Devs have worked hard to balance shotguns with rifles, and honestly its more work than its worth.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Liverslices

[Revel72]

TF2

 

RNG can not whine about it. + There is non crit servers...