Ogris, Penta And Torid Nerf

[-CM-Aeon]

How about leaving stuff alone and playing with stuff you enjoy? If you dont enjoy the game anymore then dont play it. Go play your mainstream games and such. Enough of nerf crying babies. For once appreciate something DE has done and show your thanks to them. They made a great game but then again haters gonna hate right?

[Kiyryite]

I don't understand you people. You keep thinking that us "nerfers" want everything to be nerfed into oblivion and made useless, like what DE did to Acrid and QT+R.

We're clearly looking for a middle ground that makes sense. Stop pretending otherwise.

 

OT:

Ogris, Torid, and Penta have over half a thousand ammo in reserve. Just sit for a bit and let that sink in. Half a thousand.

This is completely unnecessary, and absolutely over-the-top. It should be brought down to something less ridiculous, with, at absolute most, 100 ammo.

 

Honestly. There is no reason to keep the ammo as it is unless you're one of the people who likes to abuse the unnecessarily "overpowered"-type items and don't want to see your item's nonsensical advantages go away. I'd imagine that the people who are saying "No." and "Stop these stupid nerfing threads" in this thread with nothing to back up their statements are the same ones who responded similarly to the pre-nerf "Tone down the Acrid" and "Tone down QT+R" threads.

Thanks couldn't have said it better my myself.

[Kiyryite]

All of those things you're referencing make infinitely more sense than being able to carry around more than half a thousand explosives at all times.

I hate the "This is fiction; get over it" argument. There's fiction, and then there's outright nonsense. Carrying 540 invisible rifle rounds is fiction. Carrying 540 invisible grenades is outright nonsense.

 

This is reminding me of those "We should have levels in the sun with uber-strong lava monsters!" threads. It's utterly ludicrous.

Exactly if that can happen why don't the Tenno just carry around 400,000 rounds so they never run out off ammo

[Kiyryite]

How about leaving stuff alone and playing with stuff you enjoy? If you dont enjoy the game anymore then dont play it. Go play your mainstream games and such. Enough of nerf crying babies. For once appreciate something DE has done and show your thanks to them. They made a great game but then again haters gonna hate right?

Your selfish honestly

[Kiyryite]

Again useless thread by "truth lover"

 

And after such ****heads we got QT+R nerfed, we got Acrid nerfed... There is one simple answer for all such people:

 

Dont like game - LEAVE IT.

 

 

I havent looked on source code of WF, but I think that this rifles uses rifle ammo because of rifle mechanics (yes, word RIFLE is the key), they WILL work differently if they`ll be considered as sniper rifles, I personally dont remember rifles with scope... Yes, this can be changed and more over its not even an issue, but really, Ogris is not an ammo eater, you will never pass 100 fired shoots per round, maybe on endless defence only, its more than possible to get 28 sniper ammo drops, so AMMO is not an issue for them, even if it will be lowered.

The problem is only in brains of OP creator... Realism in Space Ninjas game with immortal half-machines, robots and cybernetic virus? SRSLY?

This is actually the perfect example of a selfish person who is one of those who uses absurdly overpowered gear and just doesn't want to see his unneceassary advantage to go away. Don't be like this person think before you type. THINK.

[Nnazqul]

You're right.

On that topic, lets reduce the ammount of shurikens too,I mean, how do you fit 210 in those 2 little holsters.Let's say 15 at best.

70 arrows? you're crazy..

Magic powers?How far can you go?

It's imposible to play Warframe bound to ''realistic'' parameters.What you're suggesting, to go half way and nerf a little the ammount of ammunition will not help make it more realistic, it will just make it unplayable.

It's not supposed to be a realistic game.It would defeat its purpose.Go play freakin' shoter simulator games if you have a problem and keep quiet.

 

 

This thread is so stupid on so many levels.I mean, how do you even define realistic in a scifi/fantasy game.

[XAN3MK]

This thread is so stupid on so many levels.I mean, how do you even define realistic in a scifi/fantasy game.

 

There's a difference between believable fiction and bullS#&$.

 

OT: The problem with all launcher weapons is not the ammo count, you can shift this weapons to the sniper ammo/ammo cap and a competent player will see no difference aside from the cosmetic change. The problem with the weapons is that their ammo efficiency and damage output ratio is too good and comes at borderline zero drawbacks.

Their damage has to be either toned down significantly or they should get a shift in mechanics -- a single rocket/granade per "mag" and long reload time to balance out the damage output.

[Jannik2099]

damage of ogris? well best weapon in 1 shot 1 kill with 650 spash only obex/kogake wall attack deals more... 1000 but try to do a wall attack which hits someone. Please a VERY long reload time sniper ammo and 1 shot per mag. Torid would reload a  bit faster and penta a bit faster too.

[Nnazqul]

There's a difference between believable fiction and bullS#&$.

 

I don't think you grasp the meaning of the word fiction.

[XAN3MK]

I don't think you grasp the meaning of the word fiction.

 

Research the term "believable fiction" then.

[TenkoTenko]

I love how there are so many babies who cry the moment they see the word 'nerf'

 

This change is really long overdue, and won't even change much. The Ogris will still not run out of ammo, though not sure about the Penta and Torid against lv 70+ enemies.

[Nnazqul]

Research the term "believable fiction" then.

Yes, I am familiar with the concept.Besides the fact that it's irrelevant, it is ridiculous ,self-contradictory and stupid.

What's actualy relevant, Warframe is not supposed to be ''believable fiction''.Warframe is categorised under the genre of science fiction with fantastic elements.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but the weapons are supposed to be 

a. Unrestrainedly fanciful; extravagant: 

b. Bizarre, as in form or appearance; strange: 

c. Based on or existing only in fantasy; unreal:

[Nnazqul]

As far as realism goes for ammo capacity, I've partially wrapped my head around it by imagining that each gun has a minature teleporter inside that calls ammo from somewhere, like Lotus teleports life support capsules into the map you're in.

 

But that would technically mean every gun should have infinite ammo. Just have fun.

or a limited sourse of power that regenerates ammo.

I mean, who knows what science might be in a futuristic fantasy world.To argue what's realistic in this game is down right stupid.

+ the weapons are not overpowered at all.This discussion is pointless.

[XAN3MK]

Yes, I am familiar with the concept.Besides the fact that it's irrelevant, it is ridiculous ,self-contradictory and stupid.

What's actualy relevant, Warframe is not supposed to be ''believable fiction''.Warframe is categorised under the genre of science fiction with fantastic elements.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but the weapons are supposed to be 

a. Unrestrainedly fanciful; extravagant: 

b. Bizarre, as in form or appearance; strange: 

c. Based on or existing only in fantasy; unreal:

 

No, you are not wrong, but even under that categorisation, all the weapons in Warframe fall under believable fiction simply because you can explain them within the boundries of logic and physics. When that stops being the case, we can start calling it bullS#&$.

The original comment wasn't actually aimed in anything particular said in this thread, but rather in the fact that it is very easy to define realism within sci-fi.

 

or a limited sourse of power that regenerates ammo.

I mean, who knows what science might be in a futuristic fantasy world.To argue what's realistic in this game is down right stupid.

+ the weapons are not overpowered at all.This discussion is pointless.

 

Flawed argument, mostly because we are kinda aware of the level of technological progress the Warframe universe has reached. Ofcourse, we do not possess the full knowledge of the technological advancement, but untill stated or presented otherwise, we can assume that it is not actually there.

 

And no, this discussion is not pointless nor is anybody arguing the gameplay designed physics where you carry around 500+ bullets without ammo belts or pouches. The majority agrees that switching the launcher weapons from the rifle to the sniper ammo pool will be a cosmetic change at best and it will mean bugger all to any skilled/competent player. What is being argued, however, is the idea that the launcher weapons are (semi-automatic) charged weapons that bring way too much AoE bag for the buck with borderline zero drawbacks to balance out their firepower.

 

It is not the "realistic" or "believable" ammo supply/carry capacity that is being argued but the rather broken internal mechanics of the weapons.

[Nnazqul]

No, you are not wrong, but even under that categorisation, all the weapons in Warframe fall under believable fiction simply because you can explain them within the boundries of logic and physics. When that stops being the case, we can start calling it bullS#&$.

The original comment wasn't actually aimed in anything particular said in this thread, but rather in the fact that it is very easy to define realism within sci-fi.

 

It doesn't fall under nothing.Read the game description and you'll see exacly where it falls.Not where you think it does.Weapons are supposed to be fantastic because it says they are.And it doesn't have or need to be ''believable''.That's the whole point of the genra, to be ridiculous.

 

 

Flawed argument, mostly because we are kinda aware of the level of technological progress the Warframe universe has reached. Ofcourse, we do not possess the full knowledge of the technological advancement, but untill stated or presented otherwise, we can assume that it is not actually there.

 

You know nothing.There's not enough information for you to know what kind of tehnological advancements they have made exacly.The only logical conclusion from that is that you can assume anything you want.

 

The weapons are not overpowered and that pretty much ends the discussion right here.

[XAN3MK]

It doesn't fall under nothing.Read the game description and you'll see exacly where it falls.Not where you think it does.Weapons are supposed to be fantastic because it says they are.And it doesn't have or need to be ''believable''.That's the whole point of the genra, to be ridiculous.

 

 

You know nothing.There's not enough information for you to know what kind of tehnological advancements they have made exacly.The only logical conclusion from that is that you can assume anything you want.

 

The weapons are not overpowered and that pretty much ends the discussion right here.

 

Yet they still are believable, whether you accept it or not. Also, fantastic != unbelievable.

 

There is enough information, assuming one would be inclined to read.

 

The weapons are mechanically broken, overpowered or otherwise. But by all means, feel free to be superficial and vain, don't let me stop you.

[Nnazqul]

Yet they still are believable, whether you accept it or not. Also, fantastic != unbelievable.

 

They are under the fantastic subgenre.Whether some are and some not, whether they are believeable for you or not, it's irrelevant.

Obviously some are and that's obviously a problem for you.Deal with it.That's how it's supposed to be.

Who says games need stupid boundries like ''realism''.

 

 

There is enough information, assuming one would be inclined to read.

 

I read in fact all the lore,Now show me the boundries.Common..

 

 

The weapons are mechanically broken, overpowered or otherwise. But by all means, feel free to be superficial and vain, don't let me stop you.

And that's your prerogative.Fact is , they're not.

[XAN3MK]

They are under the fantastic subgenre.Whether some are and some not, whether they are believeable for you or not, it's irrelevant.

Obviously some are and that's obviously a problem for you.Deal with it.That's how it's supposed to be.

Who says games need stupid boundries like ''realism''.

Untill DE starts filling their universe with weapons, armors and tools that are completely illogical and/or make no sense, all of them will be judged by the known laws of physics. So far, DE has made no attempt to claim, whether through discussion or content, that they do not apply. Also, I can't quite qualify logic and application of physics as a "problem", plus, what does "realism" have to do with anything, I never brought it up.

 

I read in fact all the lore,Now show me the boundries.Common..

Let me switch that argument around, show me that there aren't.

 

And that's your prerogative.Fact is , they're not.

That "fact" is why this discussion is happening in the first place, which puts a HUGE question mark on this whole subject. However, whether someone/DE will consider it and do (or not) something about it is a completely different matter.

[Nnazqul]

 

Untill DE starts filling their universe with weapons, armors and tools that are completely illogical and/or make no sense, all of them will be judged by the known laws of physics. So far, DE has made no attempt to claim, whether through discussion or content, that they do not apply. Also, I can't quite qualify logic and application of physics as a "problem", plus, what does "realism" have to do with anything, I never brought it up.

 

Talking about known laws of physics in a sci-fi universe.How do you know !?It's all imaginative fiction.''Believable'' or not, it's irrelevant.

I mean, is there a more ridiculous argument..

 

The weapons are being introduced both as archaic and fantastic and it's great.Also fantastic!=/= unbelievable.

Let me switch that argument around, show me that there aren't.

First of all, you're the one making a possitive statement.The burden of proof is on you.

Second of all, there's not enough information to assess the boundries therefore there isn't a specific one.

..and therefore, you're free to speculate.

 

That "fact" is why this discussion is happening in the first place, which puts a HUGE question mark on this whole subject. However, whether someone/DE will consider it and do (or not) something about it is a completely different matter.

 

Because people like to argue about even the stupidest things in the world.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Nnazqul

[MoyuTheTrinity]

people arguing wether a limitation in the engine is legitemet or not like DE has a huge choice in the matter currently

like i said before

DE isnt gona take a chance this early in adding a new ammo pool or risk movign them to sniper ammo or arrow ammo as everytime they do these things it makes alot of bugs

the weapons are already not fun to use (torid/ogris) why risk breaking them with work arounds to the ammo system that have proven very buggy and unreliable

everyones arguments wether it should stay like it is or not that it needs a nerf or not >_> are literaly no use as DE is not going to touch them till they actualy can make new ammo pools

the engin shiped with 4 ammo types and has no safe way to add new ones copying existing ammo pools and renamign them isnt gona cut it as this is core code built into the engine

 

I wish for once people would listen to reason and limitations

Edited January 2, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[SIDESTRE4M]

They are stuck at the topic about basic principles which won't bear any fruits.

 

I'd ask, what's the problem with 540 Grenades?

Why do they hurt anyone? Infinite ammo applies to many other guns too or did anyone ever run dry with a seer, a lex or a kraken?

 

This topic is more or less digital. Ammo efficient or not. In truth, it's somewhat analog.

 

So in fact, it's not about the ammo capacity, but the nature of the weapon. Penta, Ogris and the like would all need a complete overhaul for damage/shot ratio.

 

But the people are just hardened and are discussing about trivial S#&$ like fictional realism to make their argument count. As if anyone cares about that.

 

At the end of the day it's just a nerf for the usabilty of the weapon or not.

 

That leads me to the question why that said weapons should be nerfed. It's not about some sort of realism or basic priniciple. It's about what problemdo do those people have with Penta. Are penta-users kill-stealing or is it just jealousy because Gorgon runs dry so fast?

 

What is the REAL problem?

[XAN3MK]

So in fact, it's not about the ammo capacity, but the nature of the weapon. Penta, Ogris and the like would all need a complete overhaul for damage/shot ratio.

 

THIS. This has been my argument the whole time. You can give the launcher weapons 50 or 5000 ammo and it will make no bloddy difference. Re-working their rate of fire, reload time and ammo per mag size is.

 

I couldn't care less about the realism BUT I do care about the notion of balance which is above and beyond everything else in my book. (And don't get me wrong, the launcher weapons are hardly the only offenders.)

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

 

THIS. This has been my argument the whole time. You can give the launcher weapons 50 or 5000 ammo and it will make no bloddy difference. Re-working their rate of fire, reload time and ammo per mag size is.

 

[...]

 

And what is your problem with those weapons exactly? They get balanced with exactly this. You have weapons that are intended to be ammo efficient and those that are not. Those which are ammo efficient have other shortcomings.

If you are with Penta and enemies get close, you are screwed and have to get distance or you kill yourself. Same with Ogris. Or you switch to your sidearm.

Same with Lex... to a certain degree it oneshots everything, but if you get swarmed, it doesn't help you because then the magazine size or the reload speed are the limiting factors.

[XAN3MK]

And what is your problem with those weapons exactly? They get balanced with exactly this. You have weapons that are intended to be ammo efficient and those that are not. Those which are ammo efficient have other shortcomings.

If you are with Penta and enemies get close, you are screwed and have to get distance or you kill yourself. Same with Ogris. Or you switch to your sidearm.

Same with Lex... to a certain degree it oneshots everything, but if you get swarmed, it doesn't help you because then the magazine size or the reload speed are the limiting factors.

 

Their ammo efficiency is not an issue, those weapons should be efficient in the bag per ammo department. Where I do see an issue, however, is the rate at which they dispense their firepower -- borderline spammy attack rate with huge damage potential and almost no downtime. Launchers should retain their high power but the rate at which they desperse it should be toned down -- one rocket for the Ogris and/or 3-4 for the Penta/Torid with a 2-3 second reload time.

 

And I don't see the deadzone as a limitation, it is only logical to blow yourself up if you fire a rocket point-blank.

[Nnazqul]

Thing is about game balance, as much as you would want the weapons to perform the same, you can't take a rocket launcher and compare it to a bow or a rifle.It's annoying to go in with a Synapse and before you can take a shot at a mob (because the range is so poor) some dude with a Penta nuked the whole room.But hell, Synapse is the best DPS in game.When it gets close and personal with some tough mobs or a boss you can ditch the Penta because it's useless.