Loki? Maybe Not The Best Choice For Starters?

[(PSN)P4NCH0theD0G]

Loki, well, I did choose him after the tutorial, and I did regret it - somewhat. Mostly, because I have no people to play with. Loki lacks direct damage abilities, I mean it says that right in the description, but I didn't really care, I just saw "Invisibility" and I pressed X.

 

And I played him for quite some time, and the way I most enjoyed it was with other people with more offensive Warframes.

 

I found Decoy amazingly useful - especially in Defense Missions;

 

Invisibility great - but I found that enemies constantly managed to walk out of my reach to look for me when Invisible Me wanted to slash them;

 

Switch Teleport was iffy - it's hard for me to move and aim with the sticks, then trigger the ability with the touchpad (I do wish they had put that touchpad on the bottom of the controller) while still keeping it aimed directly at an enemy, since you need to have one in your crosshairs, it won't work with just a general direction;

 

Radial Disarm I never really used. When I got to the levels where an Ultimate is needed, well, other players just triggered theirs, and everyone was dead. I triggered mine and everyone stopped shooting. Yay.

 

I think Loki is a Warframe that takes time to be learned properly, since it's not as immediately rewarding as other, more offensive frames. He's also not really durable, and probably gets most useful once you level him up and then get to Missions, where Ultimates don't kill everything in sight.

And getting there takes time many might not want to spend being less "deadly" than other Warframes, especially if you just started out and didn`t really plan on spending money.

Of course, if you have a regular group of people to play with, being a niche player with Loki is totally worth it to complement your team. Or, of course, if you want to spend some cash and not wait until you get to unlock and build some of the more Loki-like stuff, I could totally see Loki as a Solo Speed Built, or s Stealth-Focused player. Because, God, he is fast. And sneaky.

 

As I didn't plan on spending much money (I did spend some now), playing Loki did get a bit boring, playing with Randoms and often feeling like I'm the Ninja running with a group of Marines that don't like me very much. So I Invested some money, bought a Volt, and I am having much more fun right now. So, to any new player, I stronly recommend to choose Excalibur or Mag, just to see what Warframe has to offer. Playing a different Frame is really almost a different game. Volt can kill, but boy is he slow, and I didn't think I would miss Invisibility that much.

 

In short, Loki is something special, but requires time and patience (and preferably a team to play with). As such, he's probably not the Frame to start out with for beginners, casual players or people not willing to spend any money.

 

I also think, DE should remove him from the 3 Warframes you can choose after the tutorial. Not because he's bad, but because Loki might scare off a lot of casual-"Hm, this looks cool - oh, no, wait, all the other Warframes look cool, but mine seems to lack a bit of flash-and-boom"-players. On the other hand, of course, maybe it was a sneaky Psy-Ops PR move, to lure people with Stealth, then make them look at all the flashier Frames with envy and get more people to pay.

 

It worked with me (to an extent, at least...)

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.   Loki is amazingly hard to get if you don't pick him as a starter and while he isn't for a complete newbie with no friends (not insulting you, but you sound like you didn't have friends that played the game), for someone who is skilled enough or has good friends, Loki is amazing.

 

Loki can solo most missions with ease.

 

Invisibility?  Key skill right there.  Makes Loki do so much damage that it is insane.  Ever crit 20k with a weapon that has NO MODS?   Loki can do that.

 

Decoy?  If used well, great, but I've done entire levels only using invisibility and switch teleport.

 

Switch teleport?  Use it right and it is amazing.  Two enemies next to each other?  Switch with one, stealth kill the other.  Three?  Switch with one, take out the one with nobody the wiser.

 

Radial Disarm? Does damage to certain infested units (chargers), and is amazingly useful in long defense/survival missions against grineer (and corpus).  Those helions/napalms/scorches/bombards that love to nuke your team?  Boom, disarmed.  Those shockwave moas and such? disarmed.  Heavy gunner giving you trouble? disarmed.  Grineer commander teleporting your team around? Disarmed.    Yes, except against infested, it is not as useful as other ultimates in the lower levels.  But when your enemies start hitting level 40+ (old level 100+), radial disarm can stop those attacks that pretty much would otherwise one hit your team.

 

 

The only missions I haven't tried soloing with Loki are:  Rescue, Mobile Defense, Defense, Survival, Capture (U11).  This is because those missions are a pain solo regardless of the class.  (Loki's specialty isn't fighting large groups but small tight groups or single units).  Every other mission is easily soloable with Loki if built right.

Edited December 29, 2013 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[(PSN)sage042000]

I can somewhat agree to loki being a poor choice for a starter. most new players won't appreciate anything besides invisibility until they get further in the game and realize how important utility becomes. hell, you're farther into the game now and still don't see the beauty of radial disarm, tc. arguably the most useful ability in high level play bar none. I understand that they were trying to give players a taste of 3 distinct playstyles. (caster/stealth/mix), but Ash would be better suited to beginners, especially with his better straight survivability rather than utility based survivability like loki.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I can somewhat agree to loki being a poor choice for a starter. most new players won't appreciate anything besides invisibility until they get further in the game and realize how important utility becomes. hell, you're farther into the game now and still don't see the beauty of radial disarm, tc. arguably the most useful ability in high level play bar none. I understand that they were trying to give players a taste of 3 distinct playstyles. (caster/stealth/mix), but Ash would be better suited to beginners, especially with his better straight survivability rather than utility based survivability like loki.

I know that somewhere it says that loki is more suited for advanced players.  I forget if it is during the choices but as long as they have that warning, I think it is fine.  Loki is designed for people that want a more advanced styles.  Ash doesn't cover those advanced techniques.  They should have a system stating: This is for complete beginners, this is for advanced players, and this is for experts.  (Like in pokemon, I chose lizardon path in red because it was supposed to be the hardest).  I play mages (healers specifically) in most mmorpgs because they are the hardest to start with.

 

If anything, I regretted NOT choosing Loki as my starter.  Maybe I'll do a video in a few weeks about playing a Loki.

Edited December 29, 2013 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

I did not choose him as starter, but bought for 75 plat later - he's really good in the hardest missions, like tower survival 2-3 going for a long time.

He's also stupidly good at soloing certain missions. Like deception. Stack sprint speed buffs + invisibility maxed + continuity mod upgraded = you can just run through entire level in seconds and ignore any threat.

[(PSN)sage042000]

I did not choose him as starter, but bought for 75 plat later - he's really good in the hardest missions, like tower survival 2-3 going for a long time.

He's also stupidly good at soloing certain missions. Like deception. Stack sprint speed buffs + invisibility maxed + continuity mod upgraded = you can just run through entire level in seconds and ignore any threat.

I made a loki for exactly this type of mission. I have my kestrel, (will probably be replaced by galatine or ichors), and I guess I'll go with the kunia since stalker has been a no-show since the patch. even then, it would still take luck to get the despair BP. and finally, a vectis in the oven right now with the hush mod to quiet it down and that mod that adds 40% damage to the first shot. not sure how it would stack up to paris prime's charged arrow, but it's what I have access to right now.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I did not choose him as starter, but bought for 75 plat later - he's really good in the hardest missions, like tower survival 2-3 going for a long time.

He's also stupidly good at soloing certain missions. Like deception. Stack sprint speed buffs + invisibility maxed + continuity mod upgraded = you can just run through entire level in seconds and ignore any threat.

35 plat for a loki isn't that bad all things considered (considering you get the reactor and slot included for that price).

 

And that is exactly my point.  Loki is insanely useful if used right and honestly is totally worth getting as a starter.

[(PSN)i_illusion]

Actually I agree with this guy's statement, but hear me out before giving me a counter argument.

From what I've noticed Loki is a great Warframe.... If you have the Rare mods to properly mod him correctly. Loki needs long durations, a decent amount of energy/energy efficiency, and strong weapons to balance out his lack of damaging skills. You might be noticing a pattern here... Loki is great only for people who have the rare mods/strong weapons to go with him, something that typical players who are starting to play this game for the first time aren't going to have right away.

 

As the guy stated above, Loki was stated to be for Advanced players, something that I find funny since he is being giving out as a Starter (maybe he's for PC players who are switching to the PS4?) but even for his existence by it's self, it's pointless because you have a long haul away until he's even useful but by then you normally have other Warframes that would be better suited for where you are at in the game.

 

Again, he's a good warframe, but he's simply that one Warframe that I don't believe is suited for starting up a new game with.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Actually I agree with this guy's statement, but hear me out before giving me a counter argument.

From what I've noticed Loki is a great Warframe.... If you have the Rare mods to properly mod him correctly. Loki needs long durations, a decent amount of energy/energy efficiency, and strong weapons to balance out his lack of damaging skills. You might be noticing a pattern here... Loki is great only for people who have the rare mods/strong weapons to go with him, something that typical players who are starting to play this game for the first time aren't going to have right away.

 

As the guy stated above, Loki was stated to be for Advanced players, something that I find funny since he is being giving out as a Starter (maybe he's for PC players who are switching to the PS4?) but even for his existence by it's self, it's pointless because you have a long haul away until he's even useful but by then you normally have other Warframes that would be better suited for where you are at in the game.

 

Again, he's a good warframe, but he's simply that one Warframe that I don't believe is suited for starting up a new game with.

 

Depending on the mission, he doesn't even need rare mods or good weapons.  However, he does need maxed invisibility, extremely clever positioning, and a good deal of energy restorations.   Energy restores aren't that hard to obtain even early game and by the time you can make full use of them, you probably are about halfway through earth?  That still is much earlier than you'd get Loki otherwise.  Plus, not picking Loki means a three and a half day wait along with a good deal of farming or plat.

 

Alternatively, you could forgo the invisibility and focus more on decoy.  This will reduce the need for energy restoration at the cost of having to do a lot more fighting.

 

On the other hand, Mag (one of the starters) can easily be obtained from Mars, which is fairly early on.  Rhino can be gained as early as Venus.  Both are fairly solid warframes to use until you can get Loki set up (assuming you need to).

 

Personally, I'd take Loki over Excaliber and considering how easy it can be to get mag...

Edited December 30, 2013 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[(PSN)FraytaCentariHM]

Loki sets the learning curve higher.

 

If you stick with him instead of trying to toss him out like he's garbage for a Rino or something- then you'll end up a better player for it. I started with loki- and while I did have a moment of unsureness of picking something so difficult out of the gate- I kept at it, I in fact refused to pick up a  swipe right to win war frame until I built banshee- who is another tactical frame.

 

Now I have many warframes, many swipe right to win frames, but Loki is my boy, and I love him. Most of the time I'm walking out with at least half the damage, I contribute most to most game sessions (even ones with clan mates mind you, randoms are easier.)

 

I would argue, actually- that Mag is the worst frame a new player can pick up because mag has an incredibly lazy set of moves, with the exception of bullet attractor- but that move is quickly nixed by a lot of newbies because they got bottle fed the instant damage stuff. And while mag, doesn't fall into the pit like exclaiber does, the learning curve to make it go from a starter frame- to an end game one, is far steeper then lokis, because once you understand how loki really works, its a matter of experience. With mag, you have to change everything you've done before- and even then, a well trained AD Nova does it better.

 

My reasonable choice of starters would be Exaliber, Loki, and Trinity- and Trinity fills the female slot, and is a healer. Better thing to learn from the gate then any instant damage frame.

[(PSN)sage042000]

Loki sets the learning curve higher.

 

If you stick with him instead of trying to toss him out like he's garbage for a Rino or something- then you'll end up a better player for it. I started with loki- and while I did have a moment of unsureness of picking something so difficult out of the gate- I kept at it, I in fact refused to pick up a  swipe right to win war frame until I built banshee- who is another tactical frame.

 

Now I have many warframes, many swipe right to win frames, but Loki is my boy, and I love him. Most of the time I'm walking out with at least half the damage, I contribute most to most game sessions (even ones with clan mates mind you, randoms are easier.)

 

I would argue, actually- that Mag is the worst frame a new player can pick up because mag has an incredibly lazy set of moves, with the exception of bullet attractor- but that move is quickly nixed by a lot of newbies because they got bottle fed the instant damage stuff. And while mag, doesn't fall into the pit like exclaiber does, the learning curve to make it go from a starter frame- to an end game one, is far steeper then lokis, because once you understand how loki really works, its a matter of experience. With mag, you have to change everything you've done before- and even then, a well trained AD Nova does it better.

 

My reasonable choice of starters would be Exaliber, Loki, and Trinity- and Trinity fills the female slot, and is a healer. Better thing to learn from the gate then any instant damage frame.

whoa whoa whoa whoa....whoa. let's stop the mag dissing before it gets ugly in here eh? Mag's skills are only lazy if you don't have the experience and imagination to use em correctly. strategic use of pull can save a group from a wipe, whether it be pulling a group of powerful enemies over a railing or cliff into the void, or finding an elevated position to cast it from which CC's the enemy for over double the amount of time it would if you were on the same level because they fly ridiculously high up in the air depending on how high the ceilings are. knowledge of other frame's abilities and coordination can turn pull into a 25 energy version of vortex and setup aoe barrages by your teammates to wipe out an entire room of enemies.

bullet attractor's benefits are obvious, 2x damage to a boss is incredible. but put it on a sturdy enemy like one of those silver grineer and your team has a huge meatshield that works almost as well as snowglobe to buy you time to recover. if you need more time, pull an enemy behind cover and cast it. the cover will keep his friends from killing him.

it never occurs to most mag players to use shield polarize when they're not surrounded by an asston of corpus. but SP will still refill half your entire team's shields whether or not the enemy has shields to destroy. I run energy siphon, flow and streamline. whether it be corpus, grineer or infested, I'm literally a trinity for my teammate's shields.

a well played mag boosts your cell's tactics, offensive/defensive ability and survivability. people who say otherwise haven't ran with a good mag.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

whoa whoa whoa whoa....whoa. let's stop the mag dissing before it gets ugly in here eh? Mag's skills are only lazy if you don't have the experience and imagination to use em correctly. strategic use of pull can save a group from a wipe, whether it be pulling a group of powerful enemies over a railing or cliff into the void, or finding an elevated position to cast it from which CC's the enemy for over double the amount of time it would if you were on the same level because they fly ridiculously high up in the air depending on how high the ceilings are. knowledge of other frame's abilities and coordination can turn pull into a 25 energy version of vortex and setup aoe barrages by your teammates to wipe out an entire room of enemies.

bullet attractor's benefits are obvious, 2x damage to a boss is incredible. but put it on a sturdy enemy like one of those silver grineer and your team has a huge meatshield that works almost as well as snowglobe to buy you time to recover. if you need more time, pull an enemy behind cover and cast it. the cover will keep his friends from killing him.

it never occurs to most mag players to use shield polarize when they're not surrounded by an asston of corpus. but SP will still refill half your entire team's shields whether or not the enemy has shields to destroy. I run energy siphon, flow and streamline. whether it be corpus, grineer or infested, I'm literally a trinity for my teammate's shields.

a well played mag boosts your cell's tactics, offensive/defensive ability and survivability. people who say otherwise haven't ran with a good mag.

You are kind of proving his point.   He was pointing out that mag is amazingly powerful and that with enough skill, mag is a good end game unit but that there is a huge difference between just playing a strong mag and playing a good mag.

 

Simply put, he was stating that mag was extremely powerful and did a lot of damage really easily.

 

Of course, he also said that Nova is better which is something I do disagree with.  Mag can easily overpower Nova if done right. (Even with the nerf).

 

Mag has times where it is weaker than Nova, sure, but every warframe and warframe build has their strong points and weak points.  Well, some builds might not have any strong points.

[(PSN)sage042000]

You are kind of proving his point.   He was pointing out that mag is amazingly powerful and that with enough skill, mag is a good end game unit but that there is a huge difference between just playing a strong mag and playing a good mag.

 

Simply put, he was stating that mag was extremely powerful and did a lot of damage really easily.

 

Of course, he also said that Nova is better which is something I do disagree with.  Mag can easily overpower Nova if done right. (Even with the nerf).

 

Mag has times where it is weaker than Nova, sure, but every warframe and warframe build has their strong points and weak points.  Well, some builds might not have any strong points.

ah, if that's what he meant, then my mistake. when he said all her moves were "lazy" with the exception of bullet attractor, I thought he meant that they were no-skill, set it and forget it damage moves with no strategic value. the only one like that is crush, and I forma'd it's slot for redirection. i'd rather get 2 pulls and an emergency shield polarize for that energy.

[(PSN)helcalv]

I can somewhat agree to loki being a poor choice for a starter. most new players won't appreciate anything besides invisibility until they get further in the game and realize how important utility becomes. hell, you're farther into the game now and still don't see the beauty of radial disarm, tc. arguably the most useful ability in high level play bar none. I understand that they were trying to give players a taste of 3 distinct playstyles. (caster/stealth/mix), but Ash would be better suited to beginners, especially with his better straight survivability rather than utility based survivability like loki.

 

Except for where radial disarm makes enemies do more damage.Which happens quite a lot after level 30 enemies.I've had disarmed lancers hit me for a lot more then their crappy guns ever would have.Ever had a loki cast that and suddenly get hit for over half your shields on a 1k shield rhino by enemies that would have only tickled before?I have many times.

[(PSN)helcalv]

ah, if that's what he meant, then my mistake. when he said all her moves were "lazy" with the exception of bullet attractor, I thought he meant that they were no-skill, set it and forget it damage moves with no strategic value. the only one like that is crush, and I forma'd it's slot for redirection. i'd rather get 2 pulls and an emergency shield polarize for that energy.

Mag nerf?When?Last I heard she got BUFFED with the release of Mag Prime in U10.

EDIT:Sorry meant to quote the post you quoted.

Edited December 30, 2013 by (PS4)helcalv

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Energy regeneration is pretty hard to obtain - just throwing this in here. It took me weeks to get energy regeneration aura. But they are essential for everyone. Not just for Loki.

[(PSN)P4NCH0theD0G]

I'm pretty sure I said that Loki is not bad, it's just that when you first start out, and you don`t have a crew to run with (which I'm also pretty sure I said I didn`t have), you often seem to get, well, not "lost" exactly, but you see all the other high-damage frames and you get a bit envious. This might be more of a PS4 thing than PC, what with consoles being, totally generalized, the more casual crowd (what? I`m on console, I can say that.).

 

I can totally see the value of Loki for a good team and/or on higher levels, but until you get to that level, especially when playing with randoms, you're delegated to being the enabler, not the vanquisher of evil and whatnot. I think he's more of a niche frame, but that means you need to understand the game and the game mechanics to understand Loki's value.

 

To put it another way:

If you start out with Excalibur (-bur? ber?) or Mag you will (eventually) get to levels where you might think "Hey, now right here that Loki would be totally awesome."

If you start with Loki and don't know much about what to expect in the missions to come after Mecury or Venus, you might think for quite some time "Hey, quite often any OTHER frame would be awesome, just so I don't have to let everybody else do all the heavy lifting."

 

Value should not be determined by killability, but if you're just taking a look into Warframe, I just don't think Loki is the Frame that really shows you what "fun" the game has to offer and get you interested. Loki I see as a challenge, and I think that new players need to invest some time before they really enjoy themselves.

 

As to the advanced tactics, sure, pulling a radial disarm on a group, decoying them all into one cluster and then invisi-slashing them to pieces sounds great, but you'd need to be about frame level 14 or so until you have enough Total Energy to do so, unless you get lucky with Mods or people give you some of theirs. And yes, there are ways to mod it, but that takes some research and focus and a deeper understanding of the game mechanics than most newcomers might be willing to invest from or even before they start.

 

It's just that Loki's values aren't as apparent early on than other frames'.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

 

Energy regeneration is pretty hard to obtain - just throwing this in here. It took me weeks to get energy regeneration aura. But they are essential for everyone. Not just for Loki.

You mean like the one four hours ago? lol.

 

Just saying, but those energy restoration items aren't that hard to get, they are just rare.

 

I started without friends.  All my friends play a different game.   I gained friends because well...  I like to play Trinity and I'm very good at it.  Trinity isn't exactly a big damage dealer, but it is an amazing support unit.

 

Loki is an amazing support unit even fairly early on and is actually a fairly good damage dealer and a valuable tool mid-late game.   Even early game he can be pretty good.

 

 

 

Mag nerf?When?Last I heard she got BUFFED with the release of Mag Prime in U10.

EDIT:Sorry meant to quote the post you quoted.

 

She got nerfed U11.   Hard to explain how, but let me just say some things that would have died really easily U10...  Don't die anymore.

 

Also, Mag Prime really isn't much of a buff.  It is a free polarity slot (You save a forma pretty much).

 

===

 

Also, as a side note, Mag's crush is an amazing skill.  If anything, I do end up dropping bullet attractor (I put it on in specific missions but I don't take it with me for just any mission).  See, pull mags are ANNOYING. I've played one and I've played with them.  Nova annoys many people because of their explosions "taking all the kills"  (But in reality, anything you kill still counts as yours, it is just that everything else counts as the Nova's.  But honestly?  If you didn't kill it, you shouldn't expect credit for the kill anyways.  It is no different from if another player used a nuke that landed right after yours).

 

A pull Mag...  can disable people's abilities with no warning.  Mag can snatch that enemy you were about to finish off (Mag's 300 damage did what?  1/5th of the health when my charge attack would've killed it).  Mag can make that arrow you just shot miss.  And for a very low cost.  Perhaps the pull was worth the trouble, but often it isn't.

 

A crush mag...  Lifts the enemies into the air for a second or two, making all the enemies clear targets for the team (with the exception of the immune).   The enemies are locked down for a second or two, can't attack, can't move, and probably aren't under cover anymore as well as being pointed out with a nice glow.  This makes the enemies fairly easy to attack.  A bit of crush spam can lock down enemies for a while so that your allies can jump in and kill.   No risk of pulling an enemy away from your allies' attacks (though they may still miss, they know exactly where the enemy is).  No risk of disabling people's abilities with no warning, they have one or two seconds to notice.   Depending on where they were aiming, they will at least hit the target.   A bit more costly than pull, but it can be worth it for the fact that your allies won't get screwed as much.

Edited December 30, 2013 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[(PSN)lsu4life86]

Making a loki right meow.....cant wait to invizi crit with my galatine for 70k

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

Making a loki right meow.....cant wait to invizi crit with my galatine for 70k

 

You won't see that without a full crit, or against infested.

 

But it is certainly possible, lawls.

 

 

Personally, what I think that they should have done is give you a chance to test each warframe out in a controlled scenario.

[(PSN)RocketPunch1221]

......Radial Disarm I never really used. When I got to the levels where an Ultimate is needed, well, other players just triggered theirs, and everyone was dead. I triggered mine and everyone stopped shooting. Yay.

 

 

Well then, OP, you completely miss the point with Loki. He is a powerful frame when used correctly (so are all the frames I guess), but I would have to say not a good starter frame.

[(PSN)sage042000]

Except for where radial disarm makes enemies do more damage.Which happens quite a lot after level 30 enemies.I've had disarmed lancers hit me for a lot more then their crappy guns ever would have.Ever had a loki cast that and suddenly get hit for over half your shields on a 1k shield rhino by enemies that would have only tickled before?I have many times.

they have to catch me first. at that point, they're no more dangerous than infested without ancients...and infested without ancients are a complete joke.

Edited December 30, 2013 by (PS4)sage042000

[(PSN)sage042000]

Also, as a side note, Mag's crush is an amazing skill.  If anything, I do end up dropping bullet attractor (I put it on in specific missions but I don't take it with me for just any mission).  See, pull mags are ANNOYING. I've played one and I've played with them.  Nova annoys many people because of their explosions "taking all the kills"  (But in reality, anything you kill still counts as yours, it is just that everything else counts as the Nova's.  But honestly?  If you didn't kill it, you shouldn't expect credit for the kill anyways.  It is no different from if another player used a nuke that landed right after yours).

 

A pull Mag...  can disable people's abilities with no warning.  Mag can snatch that enemy you were about to finish off (Mag's 300 damage did what?  1/5th of the health when my charge attack would've killed it).  Mag can make that arrow you just shot miss.  And for a very low cost.  Perhaps the pull was worth the trouble, but often it isn't.

 

A crush mag...  Lifts the enemies into the air for a second or two, making all the enemies clear targets for the team (with the exception of the immune).   The enemies are locked down for a second or two, can't attack, can't move, and probably aren't under cover anymore as well as being pointed out with a nice glow.  This makes the enemies fairly easy to attack.  A bit of crush spam can lock down enemies for a while so that your allies can jump in and kill.   No risk of pulling an enemy away from your allies' attacks (though they may still miss, they know exactly where the enemy is).  No risk of disabling people's abilities with no warning, they have one or two seconds to notice.   Depending on where they were aiming, they will at least hit the target.   A bit more costly than pull, but it can be worth it for the fact that your allies won't get screwed as much.

those are things a bad mag player would do. pull is used for emergencies or when there's a large group in front of you that you can soften up for your team. if the team has already engaged and are doing fine against the mobs, there's no need to pull. crush is mitigated by armor, pull isn't, and CC's for almost the same amount of time with a much larger range, while grouping the enemies together for easy kills as they get up.

pull is a far superior CC and does nearly 1/3 of crush's damage, (more against grineer), for 1/4 the energy cost. crush is hilariously outclassed by the 25 pointer.

[(PSN)FraytaCentariHM]

You are kind of proving his point.   He was pointing out that mag is amazingly powerful and that with enough skill, mag is a good end game unit but that there is a huge difference between just playing a strong mag and playing a good mag.

 

Simply put, he was stating that mag was extremely powerful and did a lot of damage really easily.

 

Of course, he also said that Nova is better which is something I do disagree with.  Mag can easily overpower Nova if done right. (Even with the nerf).

 

Mag has times where it is weaker than Nova, sure, but every warframe and warframe build has their strong points and weak points.  Well, some builds might not have any strong points.

 

 

ah, if that's what he meant, then my mistake. when he said all her moves were "lazy" with the exception of bullet attractor, I thought he meant that they were no-skill, set it and forget it damage moves with no strategic value. the only one like that is crush, and I forma'd it's slot for redirection. i'd rather get 2 pulls and an emergency shield polarize for that energy.

 

I mean to say not that mag isn't a bad frame- but having an arsenal of moves that provide instant gratification, is a bad thing to hand someone who has just started the game. I don't doubt that Mag is a great asset to a great player- and I own one myself. Mind you I don't like its play as much as some others but I can see it's appeal and tactical points. 

 

But- that is something one will not look for out of the gate when they are given the instant kills and the massive kill/CC. It makes new players learn bad habits. When you are given a Loki, or a Exaliber from the start- you are pressed to try harder earlier, it opens up that. "Think out of the box" mentality earlier in the game- I'm not saying people who choose mag are bad players, nor am I saying mag is a bad frame. But I would never advise choosing it as your training frame. 

 

When I speak of Nova out-preforming Mag, I'm talking about Antimater Drop, not Molecular Prime. I would take a Master Mag over a MP Spam nova on my team any day. Again, this is about starters and starting habits. Many of my clan mates agree, Mag isn't something you should give to someone who's new. Most of them had started with her.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

those are things a bad mag player would do. pull is used for emergencies or when there's a large group in front of you that you can soften up for your team. if the team has already engaged and are doing fine against the mobs, there's no need to pull. crush is mitigated by armor, pull isn't, and CC's for almost the same amount of time with a much larger range, while grouping the enemies together for easy kills as they get up.

pull is a far superior CC and does nearly 1/3 of crush's damage, (more against grineer), for 1/4 the energy cost. crush is hilariously outclassed by the 25 pointer.

Considering I can kill a group of enemies with a few pulls, I usually just do that.  Pisses off my teammates though since the kills end up looking like I did all the work since I have almost all the damage, all the kills, etc.

 

Also, pull is mitigated by certain enemies (heavy armor makes it really noticeable).  I find that crush is actually better at times due to the larger range (yes, crush actually does have better range if used right).  Especially after the patch, crush's range is even more so superior to pull depending on the environment.

 

But this isn't really a thread about mag.

 

 

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As stated above, Loki really does belong as a starter because it FORCES players to either get friends or start playing very strategically.  I mean, my Loki has no formas, just a reactor and I'm done with my Loki with points to spare.