An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Guest Shibboleet]

Then you are easily entertained, easily deluded and easily appeased. Which is okay, as long as you are happy, really. Pursuit of happiness has many forms. Yet, that disqualifies you on multiple levels in this discussion. For once, you lack the overarching experience, moving on from there, you also cannot see or don't want to see the glaring gaps in the game, and you are missing the connection coming from both of these predispositions.

Missions have not changed much in a year. The models for Capture are different, the tilesets are different, but the mission is still the same. Raid, a well played game mode, was removed. Rescue, Spy, Deception, which are despised by most, are left in. Survival is Reverse-Raid. Instead of you doing the Raid, some Alpha Team Tenno does, you are only the distraction.

 

Lore has not expanded or even begin to make sense. DE teases, but never delivers. The narrative of the Gravidus event was highly illogical. The narrative of the Cicero crisis was, too. The connections are mere conjecture, everything is speculative, there is nothing tying the teeny-tiny fragments together. Tenno are murder hobos sent to mess up other people on the whims of a sadistic woman. That's just as feasible as having a higher calling, because nothing is in the game about it.

 

Enemy types have been expanded with sand skates, which are inconsequential. The Void is a rehash of existing enemies. The MOAs are, the Grineer have added padding on some tilesets, and a different tintmap. The Ancients have new models. Still no ceiling crawlers, still no AI that interacts with each other, still no bosses that have, say, an interesting chase, or stages that require a change of tactics. Still no "Hardcore" mode where you can play all levels at level 30.

 

History has shown that DE has capable mappers, and willing people in sound and animation, but when it comes putting these people to good use by combining these efforts ... it just doesn't happen. The content you are betting on seeing eventually has not reared it's head yet. What is slowly? Two years? Four? Please be a little less delusional here or vacate yourself from a discussion you are uncapable of holding due to a lack of knowledge/understanding.

I understand enough, and you stating that I don't isn't enough to deter me from discussion or giving my input. I will admit though that your way of conversation is rather fancy and draws people into what you are saying.

 

I shall counter with my list style!

I'm willing to bet Survival is the most played mission type at this point, and even before the keys got added to the drop table.

 

Ceiling crawlers might seem cool in concept to some few, but is that really something to be mulling over? You, yourself, don't seem too interested in sand skates.

 

I remember many people loving the new jungle tileset, even after we did our what seemed to be 100+ runs.

 

I hear that they're working on Grineer AI a bit to give them smarter behavior when cover is needed.

 

Gravidus was a bit odd how we'd help either side, but overall it was a good test of a new mission type. It was a dressed up invasion, yet it offered them the time to test out how friendly Grineer/Corpus would play with Tenno.

 

 

So you're okay with:

more of the same shallow gameplay

lack of meaningful lore

railroaded event outcomes

lack of strategic vision due to lack of design documents

power creeping meaning grinding for content that might be nerfed by the time you get there

 

Why do you hate warframe?

What makes it shallow? Lore? Story?

Question 1

I usually make jokes about how the Grineer won, but having high member clans versus us didn't help.

Is that lack of 'strategic vision'?

Content nerfed...I guess survival npc levels scaling slower, but defenses are back to about where they were pre-update. Unless you're talking about something like the penta being nerfed?

 

Never said I hated it.

 

 

 

@matto

I have and do see higher levels than 99.9% of the community

 

 

@General_Krull

Infested being the easiest faction to grind is relative to the player

I didn't mind going to the vaults to pick up my corrupt mods and still do occasionally

DE did change the requirements to make the keys to gain access to the derelict shortly after releasing to be cheaper and refunded the resources. They tested the system with the beta testers.

 

 

 

This is also not saying that I'm fine with everything in the game has no flaws, but there are/were some points that need to be challenged.

[VegetableBasket]

Is it challenge or just bad luck?

Or is it average luck because the drop rates are crap?

Someone posted this video in another thread (I can't remember who or why, sorry), and I think it generally just describes what's wrong with Warframe (in the areas that it possibly could), but it's also just funny and insightful. Skip the part about the palette if you want. There is a lot of profanity in the video if I need to preface that, but there is also an age restriction on it, so I think that makes it okay to share here. Anyways:

http://youtu.be/Aip2aIt0ROM?t=4m30s

Edited January 17, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[General_Krull]

Infested being the easiest faction to grind is relative to the player

I didn't mind going to the vaults to pick up my corrupt mods and still do occasionally

DE did change the requirements to make the keys to gain access to the derelict shortly after releasing to be cheaper and refunded the resources. They tested the system with the beta testers.

 

 

 

This is also not saying that I'm fine with everything in the game has no flaws, but there are/were some points that need to be challenged.

I'm not commenting on whether infested are easy or not, I'm saying DE implied only reason people are upset with their removal was because the people's easy grind spots were gone.

And you are not everyone, I can guarantee derelicts aren't played as much as cyath, xini or any other infested mission. They limited player choice for no reason.

And yes, they did change the requirements. After a massive backlash, and it bothers me that they thought it was okay at first.

 

And my point isn't really the derelicts or corrupted mods. It's about DE first backing down on what they said (Lephantis and derelicts replacing jupiter tilesets and old golem) and then instead of making derelicts "worth it" they just added bandages on them or simply strong armed people there. And the lack of communication on huge changes like removing an entire faction from normal play. 

 

Or is it average luck because the drop rates are crap?

Someone posted this video in another thread (I can't remember who or why, sorry), and I think it generally just describes what's wrong with Warframe (in the areas that it possibly could), but it's also just funny and insightful.

http://youtu.be/Aip2aIt0ROM?t=4m30s

I still don't understand how some people think grind and "gambling" are real content. It baffles me.

[Ced23Ric]

I'm willing to bet Survival is the most played mission type at this point, and even before the keys got added to the drop table.

Ceiling crawlers might seem cool in concept to some few, but is that really something to be mulling over? You, yourself, don't seem too interested in sand skates.

I remember many people loving the new jungle tileset, even after we did our what seemed to be 100+ runs.

I hear that they're working on Grineer AI a bit to give them smarter behavior when cover is needed.

Gravidus was a bit odd how we'd help either side, but overall it was a good test of a new mission type. It was a dressed up invasion, yet it offered them the time to test out how friendly Grineer/Corpus would play with Tenno.

 

Survival is the game type that drops the most cores, delivers the fastest XP. In a game that is 100% about grind, it is the fastest grinder. It takes no genius to see why Survial gets a lot of playtime. Before Survival, it was Mobile Defense, before that, Defense, for the same reasons. That is no testament to its fun or quality, it is simply the answer to the question about efficiency. Survival is not fun. It is AFK farming where pushing some buttons every so often and then extracting happens. Survival is trivial, regardless of time spent.

Ceiling Crawlers are just one of many enemies. The forums are bloated with ideas. I won't go on here, because it has been repeated ad nauseam.

Tilesets are fine. They are, at the end, squandered though. There is nothing done with them to make them unique. No environmental hazard, environmental interaction, no consequences whether it's jungle, ship or asteroid. Again, no continuation of a good basis.

AI has been an issue since forever.

Gravidus made little sense in the lore aspect, and had no consequences after the event, again.

 

What is your point?

[Guest Shibboleet]

I'm not commenting on whether infested are easy or not, I'm saying DE implied only reason people are upset with their removal was because the people's easy grind spots were gone.

And you are not everyone, I can guarantee derelicts aren't played as much as cyath, xini or any other infested mission. They limited player choice for no reason.

And yes, they did change the requirements. After a massive backlash, and it bothers me that they thought it was okay at first.

 

And my point isn't really the derelicts or corrupted mods. It's about DE first backing down on what they said (Lephantis and derelicts replacing jupiter tilesets and old golem) and then instead of making derelicts "worth it" they just added bandages on them or simply strong armed people there. And the lack of communication on huge changes like removing an entire faction from normal play. 

 

I still don't understand how some people think grind and "gambling" are real content. It baffles me.

I guess I liked Portal 2 too much. Derelicts remind me of that game.

 

They needed to add mods somewhere. They thought of a new place to implement them. They chose the derelict and then decided to make them 'corrupt' to mirror such a placement.

 

I don't see any harm in adding content in an underutilized area of the game. Especially when they're adding content.

 

Grinding is a huge factor in almost every successful mmo out there; It's a known formula that works and works well with their plat purchase scheme.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

sadly is must admit i dont believe DE gives a crap anymore about the forums or founders.

 

i believe they reached the amount of money they needed to get the game going, so they dont care anymore as they dont need to ask for money (founders), with the adittion of trade they are getting enough money to dont ask permission from anyone to do anything.

 

is just a feeling, i cant back up this with info, but for what i saw in the last livestream, they really dont care anymore, and we should know this.

 

i am a veteran myself, but when the kind of things that where mentioned in this post happens OVER and OVER again, well, is not a mistake anymore.

 

i guess we will just have to deal with it or move along, as for me there is not turning back now:

 

*they will reduce RNG? - sorry, dont think so, if they had the balls to encrypt the data, RNG will not change.  

*derelicts will be available without the keys? again, they already did the move, why change it?

*infested coming back to the solar system? why? we are still here, so is not so bad, right?

*mutagen in the solar systems? same reasoning, i even remember sheldon saying "our data says that the mutagen collected is almost the same since we changed to derelicts, so no big deal there" duh! people need to get their mutagens, does not mean i dont hate all the keyception concept to get to the derelicts.

 

i can bring more examples, but (oh i remember this also, did you heard sheldon in the last livestream? he said when steve showed the new animated dialogues  "hey, right , since this is how we show lore in the game, because lore this lore that")

 

sounds like "hey player, there is lore in the game, you just dont get it" ...amazing.

 

anyway, sorry about the sudden rant,

 

TL;DR. i believe is one of those moments "move along or deal with it", DE does not care anymore, and the boat sailed like 3 or 4 updates ago, you can undo the mess this game is, now.

 

They are aiming to new, casual players.

 

And , at least for me, i dont care anymore, this is supposed to be an open beta, but i cant test weapons or mods because i need to fight with encrypted droptables and RNG,among other things,.

 

so open beta my A**. 

 

ill support you all the way with these open letters and whatever you expect to do to make things better, but please bear in mind that  -THEY DONT CARE ANYMORE - 

Edited January 17, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[VegetableBasket]

I'm not commenting on whether infested are easy or not, I'm saying DE implied only reason people are upset with their removal was because the people's easy grind spots were gone.

And you are not everyone, I can guarantee derelicts aren't played as much as cyath, xini or any other infested mission. They limited player choice for no reason.

And yes, they did change the requirements. After a massive backlash, and it bothers me that they thought it was okay at first.

 

And my point isn't really the derelicts or corrupted mods. It's about DE first backing down on what they said (Lephantis and derelicts replacing jupiter tilesets and old golem) and then instead of making derelicts "worth it" they just added bandages on them or simply strong armed people there. And the lack of communication on huge changes like removing an entire faction from normal play. 

 

I still don't understand how some people think grind and "gambling" are real content. It baffles me.

I think the void missions and levels count as content, the traps and parkour rooms and just the look of it make it really enjoyable the first few runs.

But it's generally just ruined by how many times you have to do the same thing over and over because RNGLOL if you are the kind of person who wants all the items from it.

Prepare for ramble - I don't know what this next paragraph is actually about.

I think the derelict vaults were pretty well done though, I didn't have to do very many runs to get all the mods (they could further improve the tables by putting only some mods in some gametypes, I think), you'd have to explore a little to find the vault, work with your team, coordinate with your handicaps, I think it was actually pretty cool. It's annoying you can't really solo it, but the poor lobby system actually generated some social interaction and I made a few friends through the chat because of it. The void key needed to craft is a little annoying, but in a way it keeps the mods a little more valuable which is appropriate for (some of) their power levels. Of course them being rank 10 is just prolonging grind, and poor design in my opinion. Games are supposed to be fun, and 10 ranks on a mod is not a "fun" number. It makes sense on serration or redirection which is supposed to level as you play and scale you into the later planets, but not with blind rage which is a very endgamey mod as it is. And especially with provoked or equilibrium which have no reason to go up 10 ranks. I hate that. There were some things I liked but definitely some really bad choices made along with it, as far as void/vaults go.

 

Either way, I think if DE can manage to make the different "things to do" a bit more varied and engaging, that's what's good. The void and vaults were fresh and fun when they came out (in my opinion, disregarding methods of getting in), it's just a matter of knowing how long to expect players to enjoy it. Some new levels are not meant to be played for 50 hours alone. The grind and gambling DE uses to extend the life of their product is artificial and silly. RNG isn't being used to make the game unpredictable and new like in other ARPGs (Path of Exile endgame), just to determine how long you grumble before that piece of an item drops.

Edited January 17, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Guest Shibboleet]

Survival is the game type that drops the most cores, delivers the fastest XP. In a game that is 100% about grind, it is the fastest grinder. It takes no genius to see why Survial gets a lot of playtime. Before Survival, it was Mobile Defense, before that, Defense, for the same reasons. That is no testament to its fun or quality, it is simply the answer to the question about efficiency. Survival is not fun. It is AFK farming where pushing some buttons every so often and then extracting happens. Survival is trivial, regardless of time spent.

Ceiling Crawlers are just one of many enemies. The forums are bloated with ideas. I won't go on here, because it has been repeated ad nauseam.

Tilesets are fine. They are, at the end, squandered though. There is nothing done with them to make them unique. No environmental hazard, environmental interaction, no consequences whether it's jungle, ship or asteroid. Again, no continuation of a good basis.

AI has been an issue since forever.

Gravidus made little sense in the lore aspect, and had no consequences after the event, again.

 

What is your point?

I've never been able to AFK farm survival...maybe if you go 10-15 minutes?

Survival may not be fun to a portion of the playerbase, but another portion does like it. Even outside of the mod drop rate and xp; It's competitive.

About leaderboards though, they really should be monthly or Updately..but that's only a suggestion that I need to make in the feedback.

I don't expect them to add too many enemies until they fix the current AI to be perfect animation and logic wise.

Ships have airlock, but maybe more will be added in a future update?

AI has been getting better every major update...especially infested.

 

That is my point! =D

[Ced23Ric]

Even outside of the mod drop rate and xp; It's competitive.

 

There is no competitive challenge to a game mode that requires a specific set of frames to sit in a specific spot and push the same buttons endlessly, never moving or changing tactics, until their hardware gives out and FPS drops into the basement. Sorry. If anyone told you that Survival is anything but that, especially at times past 60 minutes, you talked to people who are not that knowledgeable about Warframe. It really is no more complex or challenging than spamming a set of abilities.

 

The AI is getting better.

 

Where? I have not recalled any substantial or tangible changes to the AI ever since.

[VegetableBasket]

The only infest AI change I've seen is that they won't run into fireblast anymore, they'll sit and wait for it to go away instead of running through it to attack a player.

Ember, a frame who was generally considered bad after removing her tank abilities, was nerfed hard enough by removing infested. Now one of her abilities is useless when it could be a fun trap/bottleneck ability, especially against infested.

It is true they're working on Grineer AI to make them more tactical, they've shown off work in that department, I trust that is actually happening, to be fair. But it's not in the game yet and there is no way to be sure if it will make the gameplay require thought, tactics, communication, dexterity, or knowledge. Probably, players will continue to plow through them with nuke abilities without even knowing where or how many enemies they just destroyed.

Edited January 17, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Othergrunty]

*snips*

What this whole thing tells us? DE doesn't want to back down from their decisions, instead they force more changes to justify their prior poor decisions no matter what the community says.

 

Remember this thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/147071-proportionate-shared-xp/

 

It was fairly obvious they had thought of it as a great idea and were only one mouse click away from putting it into the game, until enough people pointed out all that was wrong with the idea. Because while it must have sounded good on paper to them, we as players were aware of how it would work in the reality of their own game, which was not very well.

 

So they shot it down and i imagine the days the people spend thinking up and programming the new shared exp system were lost. But we were not responcible for this. If they had asked us before coding the new system, we would have given them the same feedback and they could have stopped or better changed it before, saving them these lost hours and days.

 

I'm pretty sure if Scott would have posted his change to the stamina system (which forced the game to a CRAWL and is still noticable these days when not having Quick Rest put into your frame) like this, it would have been shot down the same way.

 

Perhaps that's why they hardly post on the Developer Workshop anymore.

[Guest Shibboleet]

There is no competitive challenge to a game mode that requires a specific set of frames to sit in a specific spot and push the same buttons endlessly, never moving or changing tactics, until their hardware gives out and FPS drops into the basement. Sorry. If anyone told you that Survival is anything but that, especially at times past 60 minutes, you talked to people who are not that knowledgeable about Warframe. It really is no more complex or challenging than spamming a set of abilities.

 

 

Where? I have not recalled any substantial or tangible changes to the AI ever since.

Personal experience/top leaderboard clan in survival and defense is knowledgeable. Credit where credit is due.

 

AI has seemed to improve in minor ways each update. I'll have to see if I can find some notes unless it was undocumented.

[Kyria]

Ced23Ric, on 17 Jan 2014 - 1:18 PM, said:

Then you are easily entertained, easily deluded and easily appeased. Which is okay, as long as you are happy, really. Pursuit of happiness has many forms. Yet, that disqualifies you on multiple levels in this discussion. For once, you lack the overarching experience, moving on from there, you also cannot see or don't want to see the glaring gaps in the game, and you are missing the connection coming from both of these predispositions.

 

Please don't be condescending! It is very unflattering. How about everyone just stop with this line of «argument». It is demeaning and does nothing to help further the debate. The thing is – newer players are just as valuable to the game. They are just as much part of the future of WF as anyone else here and thus their opinion is just as relevant. He/she likes the game and is ok with the development pace. How about you just accept that to be the case instead of trying to explain it into irrelevance. Just because it could be due to not having played «long enough» does not make him any less of a content customer and future Veteran. He may reach the stage you are at – or he may not – but as for this moment he is happy with the game. Just accept that there are players of a different opinion than yours. We don't all have to agree the game is in shambles and be majorly discontent for us to want the game to progress and changes to be made. Have some respect for other people and accept that some have their own view on the matter and it just so happens it differs from yours.

 

Ced23Ric, on 17 Jan 2014 - 1:18 PM, said:

Missions have not changed much in a year. The models for Capture are different, the tilesets are different, but the mission is still the same. Raid, a well played game mode, was removed. Rescue, Spy, Deception, which are despised by most, are left in. Survival is Reverse-Raid. Instead of you doing the Raid, some Alpha Team Tenno does, you are only the distraction.

 

I somewhat disagree. Yes, I do despise Rescues (thoroughly!!!), but I like both Spy and Deception. Claiming Survival is just reverse-Raid is riddiculous though. The only thing that connects the two is the narritive. The mission objectives themselves are vastly different. My experience reading on the forums is that Survival turned out to be a huge success and added a much needed outlet. We also have minor tweaks made and temp-mission variations such as the Cisero event and invasions allowing you to battle alongside a specific faction. Plus the introduction of the invasion-portal (I know it does not «make» the mission, but it changes it up a lil - and just seeing it makes me happy! It's a freaking portal!). Not missions, but dojo obstacle course and dueling was added. Don't get me wrong; I would most definitely like to see new mission types introduced – I just don't think it is as gleam and stagnant as you make it out to be. And for the record (as I see you claim Survivals to be boring); I find Survivals to be very fun.

 

Ced23Ric, on 17 Jan 2014 - 1:18 PM, said:

Lore has not expanded or even begin to make sense. DE teases, but never delivers. The narrative of the Gravidus event was highly illogical. The narrative of the Cicero crisis was, too. The connections are mere conjecture, everything is speculative, there is nothing tying the teeny-tiny fragments together. Tenno are murder hobos sent to mess up other people on the whims of a sadistic woman. That's just as feasible as having a higher calling, because nothing is in the game about it.

 

We need lore! Abso-freaking-lutely.

 

Ced23Ric, on 17 Jan 2014 - 1:18 PM, said:

Enemy types have been expanded with sand skates, which are inconsequential. The Void is a rehash of existing enemies. The MOAs are, the Grineer have added padding on some tilesets, and a different tintmap. The Ancients have new models. Still no ceiling crawlers, still no AI that interacts with each other, still no bosses that have, say, an interesting chase, or stages that require a change of tactics. Still no "Hardcore" mode where you can play all levels at level 30.

 

We could always use more enemies; I agree! From my recollection quite a bit has happened in the last year though (since that is the timeframe we operate by as relevant to this matter). We now have electric Crawlers + Lobbers + rework of the basic Crawler, Harvester, Zanuka, Alad V, revamp of a few bosses, Lephantis, buffed Stalker, Rollers, Elite Crewmen and some more. And how we interact with them (weakspots, aggro etc.) has also changed, but that is indeed an indirect change and not physically apparant. I am 100% with you on the ceiling Crawlers though – that idea just excites me to no end!

 

[waaaaaaaals]

AI has been getting better every major update...especially infested.

That's funny because I've recently been able to effectively afk maps with defense objectives because the infested run into walls instead of attempting to attack it.

 

Compared to AI used two generations ago the AI is pitiful, even back then they were able to code units that worked as teams. The closest to AI teamwork you see in this game is from the shield drones. Even that amounts to little  more than making one unit run to nearby units.

Edited January 17, 2014 by waaaaaaaals

[matto]

The closest to AI teamwork you see in this game is from the shield drones

 

You forgot those guys :

 

 

My favorite unit : Grineer commander.

[waaaaaaaals]

You forgot those guys :

 

 

My favorite unit : Grineer commander.

Barely any teamwork to them, they're about as likely to teleport you into an empty room or behind their allies as they are to teleport you into danger.

[MetalMarauder]

I agree completely with the post. The one thing more than anything I would like to see is lore or some sort of story mode. Since it is a PVE game.

Veteran +1

[General_Krull]

I guess I liked Portal 2 too much. Derelicts remind me of that game.

 

They needed to add mods somewhere. They thought of a new place to implement them. They chose the derelict and then decided to make them 'corrupt' to mirror such a placement.

 

I don't see any harm in adding content in an underutilized area of the game. Especially when they're adding content.

 

Grinding is a huge factor in almost every successful mmo out there; It's a known formula that works and works well with their plat purchase scheme.

They added them in derelicts to make them more "appealing" without giving any thought to why people seem to avoid them. They are boring, map layout is a confusing mess (especially on survival) and some people can't play them at all due to crashes. And it's too much of a hassle to get a party going for them and the party automatically disbands after a run is completed forcing you to send invites again and again. And let's not even get started on people who absolutely can't host.

Also adding weapons, mods or warframes barely qualifies as content, it's filler not any meaningful content. 

And no, warframe is not an mmo, with same logic you could say call of duty is mmo or halo is mmo. And with the way platinum is priced and how items in market are priced the plat purchase scheme does not work that well. We have a very good thread explaining the problems with market, and I recommend you read it.

 

I repeat what I said earlier, if something doesn't drastically change in DE's attitude towards feedback and community and in actual game this game will NOT survive much longer.

[Ced23Ric]

Personal experience/top leaderboard clan in survival and defense is knowledgeable. Credit where credit is due.

 

AI has seemed to improve in minor ways each update. I'll have to see if I can find some notes unless it was undocumented.

 

1.) Leaderboards are a joke. There was a community contest, to prove Frost's usefullness in Infested Defense, and the rules were: 1x Frost, no Nyx, Vauban, Trinity (or some such). We went in there with 1x Frost and three Mags of various rank, and we sat down until wave 80 something, and it took hours. Pod was fine, we didn't get hit once, performance dropped and got really, really bad because Warframe doesn't clean up after itself properly. We could have gone on further but decided to take our leave. We did it again with the added "no forma, no clan weapons" sub rules, got to wave 75 and crashed. None of these leaderboards are a testament to skill, only to being able to sit in front of a PC for a long time. Surivial is the same. I run 1 hour Survivals constantly, and we leave because performance becomes bad, not because of any danger. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you to overemphasize their abilitites or not knowledgable about Warframe.

 

2.) Infested AI stopped freezing when everyone was off the ground, as it happened when you switched the pod onto a crate and hopped on one, too. That is the only substantial AI change I remember, and that is a fix to a selfimposed problem due to how walk meshes and pathfinding work, not an expansion of the system. Enemies still run into walls, hug cover open towards you, run in scrambles, ranged fighters still run into melee with you and they still shoot obstacles with glee.

 

The afk script is a bug that will be patched.

 

The what will be what? I think you misunderstand. See above.

[General_Krull]

what makes you think the AI has been getting better or even, indeed, changing over the last year?

i don't recall any moment where they've done something they didn't in closed beta.

 

 

 

what 'afk script'?

read his post again;

 

 

he's been able to effectively afk maps with defense objectives not because of any script or faffery on his part, but because the AI is too S#&$ to attack the objective

Ah man this reminds me of one MD mission where a group of grineer  we're just standing in front of the terminal. They didn't even try to attack it.

I will add the screenshot to this post when I find it.

 

Found the picture! They were just standing there doing nothing until Nova erased them.

Edited January 17, 2014 by General_Krull

[Bazools]

Then you are easily entertained, easily deluded and easily appeased. Which is okay, as long as you are happy, really. Pursuit of happiness has many forms. Yet, that disqualifies you on multiple levels in this discussion. For once, you lack the overarching experience, moving on from there, you also cannot see or don't want to see the glaring gaps in the game, and you are missing the connection coming from both of these predispositions.

Missions have not changed much in a year. The models for Capture are different, the tilesets are different, but the mission is still the same. Raid, a well played game mode, was removed. Rescue, Spy, Deception, which are despised by most, are left in. Survival is Reverse-Raid. Instead of you doing the Raid, some Alpha Team Tenno does, you are only the distraction.

 

Lore has not expanded or even begin to make sense. DE teases, but never delivers. The narrative of the Gravidus event was highly illogical. The narrative of the Cicero crisis was, too. The connections are mere conjecture, everything is speculative, there is nothing tying the teeny-tiny fragments together. Tenno are murder hobos sent to mess up other people on the whims of a sadistic woman. That's just as feasible as having a higher calling, because nothing is in the game about it.

 

Enemy types have been expanded with sand skates, which are inconsequential. The Void is a rehash of existing enemies. The MOAs are, the Grineer have added padding on some tilesets, and a different tintmap. The Ancients have new models. Still no ceiling crawlers, still no AI that interacts with each other, still no bosses that have, say, an interesting chase, or stages that require a change of tactics. Still no "Hardcore" mode where you can play all levels at level 30.

 

History has shown that DE has capable mappers, and willing people in sound and animation, but when it comes putting these people to good use by combining these efforts ... it just doesn't happen. The content you are betting on seeing eventually has not reared it's head yet. What is slowly? Two years? Four? Please be a little less delusional here or vacate yourself from a discussion you are uncapable of holding due to a lack of knowledge/understanding.

Took the words right of my mouth here. Dang it u've beat me to it. :)

[Guest Shibboleet]

1.) Leaderboards are a joke. There was a community contest, to prove Frost's usefullness in Infested Defense, and the rules were: 1x Frost, no Nyx, Vauban, Trinity (or some such). We went in there with 1x Frost and three Mags of various rank, and we sat down until wave 80 something, and it took hours. Pod was fine, we didn't get hit once, performance dropped and got really, really bad because Warframe doesn't clean up after itself properly. We could have gone on further but decided to take our leave. We did it again with the added "no forma, no clan weapons" sub rules, got to wave 75 and crashed. None of these leaderboards are a testament to skill, only to being able to sit in front of a PC for a long time. Surivial is the same. I run 1 hour Survivals constantly, and we leave because performance becomes bad, not because of any danger. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you to overemphasize their abilitites or not knowledgable about Warframe.

My team was first in both of those competitions. We left because we didn't think anyone else could come close. I think we only spent 1-2 hours to get first also...

 

To clarify I was assuming people were mentioning the afk bug. When the sentinel goes afk everything else seems to go afk.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Shibboleet

[Ced23Ric]

My team was first in both of those competitions. We left because we didn't think anyone else could come close.

 

It's funny, we left because we didn't want to sit around for hours any more. It was possible without effort, really, in part due to the AI, just a matter of performance going down, FPS dropping, and the game slowing down more and more. When someone took our #1 spot, we just didn't care enough. Not that it would have been hard - just time consuming. Thanks to taking no damage (enemy AI) and instakilling enemies (no cheat/exploit used, just game mechanics), there was little challenge coming from the enemies. It was just a factor of performance and time.

Hence I am saying: Leaderboards are a joke. If you think otherwise, you are either not knowledgeable about the game to the point where you can do it without effort, or you are exaggerating your abilities to make something simple sound like an achievement.

Nothing personal. Just how it is. This is no statement about anyone's intelligence or how nice or not they are. But if you know how Warframe works, neither Survival nor Defense pose any challenge and are mere grinders for affinity and/or cores.

[SpFinX]

Like...? Easy stuff that probably takes 1/20 of the time to code than the bigger stuff?

Like chat system.

 

Easy stuff that'll make a LOT of people happy and certanly increase DE popularity.

 

 

 

Then you are easily entertained, easily deluded and easily appeased. Which is okay, as long as you are happy, really. Pursuit of happiness has many forms. Yet, that disqualifies you on multiple levels in this discussion. For once, you lack the overarching experience, moving on from there, you also cannot see or don't want to see the glaring gaps in the game, and you are missing the connection coming from both of these predispositions.

Missions have not changed much in a year. The models for Capture are different, the tilesets are different, but the mission is still the same. Raid, a well played game mode, was removed. Rescue, Spy, Deception, which are despised by most, are left in. Survival is Reverse-Raid. Instead of you doing the Raid, some Alpha Team Tenno does, you are only the distraction.

 

Lore has not expanded or even begin to make sense. DE teases, but never delivers. The narrative of the Gravidus event was highly illogical. The narrative of the Cicero crisis was, too. The connections are mere conjecture, everything is speculative, there is nothing tying the teeny-tiny fragments together. Tenno are murder hobos sent to mess up other people on the whims of a sadistic woman. That's just as feasible as having a higher calling, because nothing is in the game about it.

 

Enemy types have been expanded with sand skates, which are inconsequential. The Void is a rehash of existing enemies. The MOAs are, the Grineer have added padding on some tilesets, and a different tintmap. The Ancients have new models. Still no ceiling crawlers,

still no AI that interacts with each other

, still no bosses that have, say, an interesting chase, or stages that require a change of tactics. Still no "Hardcore" mode where you can play all levels at level 30.

 

History has shown that DE has capable mappers, and willing people in sound and animation, but when it comes putting these people to good use by combining these efforts ... it just doesn't happen. The content you are betting on seeing eventually has not reared it's head yet. What is slowly? Two years? Four? Please be a little less delusional here or vacate yourself from a discussion you are uncapable of holding due to a lack of knowledge/understanding.

Ahahahaha. I know that it's offtopic, but you just reminded me that i know a RoR platformer(!) that has an Enemy_coordinator and adapting AI of enemies that uses neural networks (atm WIP). And, knowing a programmer, who is creating it, i believe that platformer would have them implemented sooner than Warframe. Such an irony =)

Edited January 17, 2014 by SpFinX

[VegetableBasket]

The big issue is that DE has screwed up several times, we tell them what they should and shouldn't do, what we like and don't like, what would be fun and what's not fun. We're basically doing their job for them, planning game systems, drawing fantastic concepts (though I can't even begin to bash the art/animation/sound team at DE, they do wonderful in my opinion, not perfect, but very good), writing lore, reporting bugs out the wazoo. Sometimes community backlash and feedback steer the game in the right direction, very often it's ignored, or appears to be ignored. I'm not talking about someone saying they're working on it either, or that our feedback is appreciated, or that our threads will be passed on to developers, because time has shown those statements to be questionable. I know DE is busy and they push out a lot of content pretty quickly (though some would debate that, fairly enough), but much of it seems like polish and extra fun things to screw around with when the game actually needs to be looked at, at its core. Some might say damage 2.0 was a step towards that, but it didn't fundamentally change the way the game is played or the mods I picked. It was a weapon rebalance, at best. It's the things that make it fun or frustrating that need to be examined and altered to create a more enjoyable experience. These things are outlined consistently on the forums, echoed in conversations with players, and apparently on the minds of DE during the livestreams, but somehow don't evolve in the ways it seems obvious they should. Just take a second look at collstro's letter if you think I'm being too vague.

All this ruckus in this thread is just about the simple idea that in the long term, as this is a beta test, it would be best to gauge the player's feedback with a little more concern. Too often forums are treated as a pit for a vocal minority to fall into, disregarded, put on hold, hushed, bribed (with 50 plat), or told promises that can't be kept.

I just think it's clear that if DE's best interest is in their game succeeding, they would take a minute to realize how much we can help them move their game to where it can be great. We're all here because we love the game or loved the trajectory it was once on.

Edited January 17, 2014 by VegetableBasket