Nova

[Xhominid]

1.) Pretty True

 

2.) I have done this so called "endgame", and played nightmare missions/alerts and have every nightmare mode mod except that really S#&$ty pistol mod. I have seen novas in all of them, and you are right. They would be balanced if M Prime did not slow the enemies.

 

I will repeat again.

 

I am fine with nova remaining as she should be, ala- a glass cannon, as long as she actually is a glass cannon. 

 

Gonna address #2 since there's no point going with #1 for obvious reasons...

 

Nova is a Glass Cannon, even with M.Prime's slow effect why?

 

1) In higher levels, just like with Ember's World on Fire. Nova's M.Prime has ZERO Invincibility Frames, which means you pretty much have to hide before you use it or you are dead.

 

2) Even when that slow effect happens, if the enemy is still durable enough(Grineer Napalmers...), they will STILL not get dropped easily and will have a good chance of killing the Nova anyway before they die.

 

You can argue for Wormhole being her escape, except even if you don't count the random glitches that you may not actually enter it, it takes 75 Energy to use and even then, due to most of the places in the game taking place in VERY cramped corridors, there's very little you can actually get away to safely.

You honestly gotta take into account that Wormhole isn't a real suitable escape move because it takes too much energy for something that will rarely work in most stages anyways(yay, you escaped from those 5 Shield Grineer...too bad you went straight into the 3 napalmers and the heavy gunner behind them).

[Zkorp]

Agree with Xhomninid : no invincibility, no resist to stun and all when casting = you have to make a bet on each move in order to cast MP in higher level  play or you are downed. As I've said, Nova is always a good support to have but it's no more the steal-kill frame it's on the noob playground.

At this point it's  became hard and challenging to not eat the dust and still be usefull to the team.

nota : wormhole is bad, good only to try to reach some places, not in anyway a safe card to play if you want to really escape something.

 

to resume : the frame is good as it's right now.

[Synthua]

Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.

[DaveC]

Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.

So you have made a massive assumption, based on what?

[Zkorp]

^ maybe : playing the game ?

[Synthua]

So you have made a massive assumption, based on what?

Based on having played a nova against lvl 100+ enemies.

[DaveC]

^ maybe : playing the game ?

Based on having played a nova against lvl 100+ enemies.

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

Plus you do not appear to have read all the discussion and it seems you don't understand the reason for us asking for Nova to be rebalanced. We're not talking level 100 enemies or wave 80+. the issues we are covering are a little more complex than your relatively simplistic stance on the whole thing. I suggest you go and read all the reasons and then come back with some sensible arguments, rather than some of the top of your head comments that are meaningless in the context of the discussion.

Hoever, this is exactly the sort of thing I come to expect from the people who love Nova, there is never a sensible clear response to any points made, as has been proven throughout this thread

Edited January 24, 2014 by DaveC

[kubbi]

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

Plus you do not appear to have read all the discussion and it seems you don't understand the reason for us asking for Nova to be rebalanced. We're not talking level 100 enemies or wave 80+. the issues we are covering are a little more complex than your relatively simplistic stance on the whole thing. I suggest you go and read all the reasons and then come back with some sensible arguments, rather than some of the top of your head comments that are meaningless in the context of the discussion.

Hoever, this is exactly the sort of thing I come to expect from the people who love Nova, there is never a sensible clear response to any points made, as has been proven throughout this thread

 

You keep calling us Nova lovers despite the facts thrown as to why she's fine as the way she is. But I think deep down you just hate Nova.

 

Nova is fine the way she is. There's nothing wrong with her. I get the feeling that nerfers need to see something wrong with a frame, otherwise its considered OP.

[DaveC]

You keep calling us Nova lovers despite the facts thrown as to why she's fine as the way she is. But I think deep down you just hate Nova.

 

Nova is fine the way she is. There's nothing wrong with her. I get the feeling that nerfers need to see something wrong with a frame, otherwise its considered OP.

A gain you ignore the points made in the post.

[Dalu__Ka]

[Xhominid]

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

Because believe it or not, Mercury till like Uranus is still low level planets. Getting up to a high timer/wave in Survival/Defense is high level and it shows where Nova is worst at. Most of your discussion is how Molecular Prime robs you of valuable XP(No it doesn't, it never did unless that Nova is far away to begin with for you to even benefit) due to it's chain explosions, which is only effective against low to maybe mid level enemies.

Plus you do not appear to have read all the discussion and it seems you don't understand the reason for us asking for Nova to be rebalanced. We're not talking level 100 enemies or wave 80+. the issues we are covering are a little more complex than your relatively simplistic stance on the whole thing. I suggest you go and read all the reasons and then come back with some sensible arguments, rather than some of the top of your head comments that are meaningless in the context of the discussion.

What sensible arguments? You've been calling us Nova lovers the entire time for dare not listening to you make "good" points about why Nova should be nerfed for some infallible reason. It doesn't help you state that M.Prime should have a Cooldown, knowing that to compensate, all Warframes would have CDs on their skills and that pretty much renders abilities completely worthless in a game where weapons already dominate well over abilities any day of the week.

 

And whenever we told you of how Nova is not imbalanced and that like Rhino, she dominates because she's more inline with the endgame content, you STILL state that's somehow imbalanced not realizing that Ultimates as a whole aren't meant for low-mid level content to begin with.

Hoever, this is exactly the sort of thing I come to expect from the people who love Nova, there is never a sensible clear response to any points made, as has been proven throughout this thread

See! You are doing it again and you wonder why you are beginning to be a joke here...

 

Replies in bold.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Xhominid

[ThePresident777]

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

Plus you do not appear to have read all the discussion and it seems you don't understand the reason for us asking for Nova to be rebalanced. We're not talking level 100 enemies or wave 80+. the issues we are covering are a little more complex than your relatively simplistic stance on the whole thing. I suggest you go and read all the reasons and then come back with some sensible arguments, rather than some of the top of your head comments that are meaningless in the context of the discussion.

Hoever, this is exactly the sort of thing I come to expect from the people who love Nova, there is never a sensible clear response to any points made, as has been proven throughout this thread

 

As level increases, Mprime stops being a room cleaner.  Room cleaning is one of your problems with Mprime.  At higher levels, when Mprime stops being a room cleaner, it actually helps you level weapons because it doesn't clean rooms and you still get the damage bonus.

Edited January 24, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Synthua]

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

 

Because Molecular Prime does 800 damage and your main complaint is that the damage it does is enough to clear whole rooms of enemies.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Synthua

[zzang]

fits perfect into every topic with nova in his name because of always the same faces with same arguments that got nothing better to do^^

,

 

 

edit: by the way nova is fine and the only really balanced frame with rhino in the game

Edited January 24, 2014 by zzang

[Cwierz]

to be fair, you've never once countered any statements with anything other than "nova is op" opinions.

 

just saying.

To be fair, debates are arguing opinions. You don't debate facts because well... duh. Typically opinions in debates are supported with facts and other such things.

 

Because Molecular Prime does 800 damage and your main complaint is that the damage it does is enough to clear whole rooms of enemies.

Oh man, now somebody has brought up the "only" 800 damage stuff.

 

First off, 800 base. M Prime doubles that to 1600. So for all intensive purposes it does do 1600 damage. Also, each death triggers one, so if your 1600 damage kills a grineer sawman who is capped at level 15 for the rest of the mission along with 4 other friends you just did 8000 AOE damage. That is 10x what you are saying is only 800. Selective logic is best logic.

 

Lets also do some calcs with her potential damage with AMD.

 

M Prime doubles damage, AMD quadruples and adds AOE in a 15 meter radius.

 

Soma

------------

1259 x 4 x 2 x 10 (10 shots), 100720 damage in a 15 meter radius 

 

Vectis

------------

14263 (no primed chamber) x 4 x 2 = 114104 in a 15 meter radius (142.63x what you said as only)

 

sure thing. Only 800 damage mate.

 

Gonna address #2 since there's no point going with #1 for obvious reasons...

 

Nova is a Glass Cannon, even with M.Prime's slow effect why?

 

1) In higher levels, just like with Ember's World on Fire. Nova's M.Prime has ZERO Invincibility Frames, which means you pretty much have to hide before you use it or you are dead.

 

2) Even when that slow effect happens, if the enemy is still durable enough(Grineer Napalmers...), they will STILL not get dropped easily and will have a good chance of killing the Nova anyway before they die.

 

You can argue for Wormhole being her escape, except even if you don't count the random glitches that you may not actually enter it, it takes 75 Energy to use and even then, due to most of the places in the game taking place in VERY cramped corridors, there's very little you can actually get away to safely.

You honestly gotta take into account that Wormhole isn't a real suitable escape move because it takes too much energy for something that will rarely work in most stages anyways(yay, you escaped from those 5 Shield Grineer...too bad you went straight into the 3 napalmers and the heavy gunner behind them).

Read quote above first.

 

However, do not interpret as me wanting to remove that. That is what should be there for nova, a destruction based warframe. What shouldn't be there? Halving enemy damage potential in a 50 meter radius. That is stuff for CC frames, that desperately need things like that. I don't care if it makes nova fragile or more so, she shouldn't have it. 

 

If she is a glass cannon, she should be so. There is no excuse for the slowing aspect of M Prime. If we have a frame with these kind of damage potentials (not even that outlandish either in terms of what it takes to achieve them, elemental build + crit mods/charged chamber, which any player at MR6 has.) and high speed she shouldn't have a skill that halves damage output of enemies while also doubling your own.

 

 

Side note for zzang: No. The outliers on either end of spectrum are never the best examples of balance. The best examples of balance right now are volt, ember, mag, and loki, if only because their entire kit is useful in a variety of situations, whilst also not being overly powerful or weak. That is how every frame should be. A full kit, with useful abilities in each slot that is neither to weak nor to powerful. Rhino would be in this category, but the vanguard helmet exists, and makes me discount him. (If you want my opinion DE should remove their stats from the helms. After all, it was stated in the terms that it is a beta and changes are to be expected.)

[-CM-Syein]

To be fair, debates are arguing opinions. You don't debate facts because well... duh. Typically opinions in debates are supported with facts and other such things.

 

Oh man, now somebody has brought up the "only" 800 damage stuff.

 

First off, 800 base. M Prime doubles that to 1600. So for all intensive purposes it does do 1600 damage. Also, each death triggers one, so if your 1600 damage kills a grineer sawman who is capped at level 15 for the rest of the mission along with 4 other friends you just did 8000 AOE damage. That is 10x what you are saying is only 800. Selective logic is best logic.

 

Lets also do some calcs with her potential damage with AMD.

 

M Prime doubles damage, AMD quadruples and adds AOE in a 15 meter radius.

 

Soma

------------

1259 x 4 x 2 x 10 (10 shots), 100720 damage in a 15 meter radius 

 

Vectis

------------

14263 (no primed chamber) x 4 x 2 = 114104 in a 15 meter radius (142.63x what you said as only)

 

sure thing. Only 800 damage mate.

 

Read quote above first.

 

However, do not interpret as me wanting to remove that. That is what should be there for nova, a destruction based warframe. What shouldn't be there? Halving enemy damage potential in a 50 meter radius. That is stuff for CC frames, that desperately need things like that. I don't care if it makes nova fragile or more so, she shouldn't have it. 

 

If she is a glass cannon, she should be so. There is no excuse for the slowing aspect of M Prime. If we have a frame with these kind of damage potentials (not even that outlandish either in terms of what it takes to achieve them, elemental build + crit mods/charged chamber, which any player at MR6 has.) and high speed she shouldn't have a skill that halves damage output of enemies while also doubling your own.

 

 

Side note for zzang: No. The outliers on either end of spectrum are never the best examples of balance. The best examples of balance right now are volt, ember, mag, and loki, if only because their entire kit is useful in a variety of situations, whilst also not being overly powerful or weak. That is how every frame should be. A full kit, with useful abilities in each slot that is neither to weak nor to powerful. Rhino would be in this category, but the vanguard helmet exists, and makes me discount him. (If you want my opinion DE should remove their stats from the helms. After all, it was stated in the terms that it is a beta and changes are to be expected.)

To be far, all of you who wanted Nova nerf only stated about her damage instead of applying Nova in any other situations where she completely at a disadvantage of. 

I even offer DaveC a chance to go in mission and played with Dave on a Nova and me on other frames beside Nova to see who would do better.

I copied and paste everything of my quote to answer the arguments but he ignored all of that whole copy and paste 

 

Do you know why I replied to you instead of Dave? Because as a Nova nerfer, YOU , at least able to hold some valid arguments, but Dave ignored almost everything. 

My real argument started here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/164379-nova/page-3

Why don't you actually re-read everything before you taken side of anything holding illogical arguments. 

[kubbi]

You said "Get off the low level planets and all 99.9% of your problems will evaporate just like that.". In what way has you playing a Nova against level 100+ enemies led you to believe that we are all playing on low level planets with Novas in the team...I don't really follow your logic here? as for playing the game that also tells you nothing about what level of I am playing on.

Plus you do not appear to have read all the discussion and it seems you don't understand the reason for us asking for Nova to be rebalanced. We're not talking level 100 enemies or wave 80+. the issues we are covering are a little more complex than your relatively simplistic stance on the whole thing. I suggest you go and read all the reasons and then come back with some sensible arguments, rather than some of the top of your head comments that are meaningless in the context of the discussion.

Hoever, this is exactly the sort of thing I come to expect from the people who love Nova, there is never a sensible clear response to any points made, as has been proven throughout this thread

Nova against low level enemies pretty much gains all the kills for herself which is what people *@##$ and moan about. In high tier levels MP cannot "steal" all the kills since the chain damage isn't strong enough anymore. However the 100% damage buff and slowing down still helps a lot. Which is why people want Nova in high tier levels. Thats why he was probably assuming you're playing against low level enemies since its easy for Nova to gain all the kills.

 

A gain you ignore the points made in the post.

I didn't ignore it. I simply chose not to reply because I thought the anwer is pretty obvious. But here this time I replied.

[ThePresident777]

To be fair, debates are arguing opinions. You don't debate facts because well... duh. Typically opinions in debates are supported with facts and other such things.

 

Oh man, now somebody has brought up the "only" 800 damage stuff.

 

First off, 800 base. M Prime doubles that to 1600. So for all intensive purposes it does do 1600 damage. Also, each death triggers one, so if your 1600 damage kills a grineer sawman who is capped at level 15 for the rest of the mission along with 4 other friends you just did 8000 AOE damage. That is 10x what you are saying is only 800. Selective logic is best logic.

 

Lets also do some calcs with her potential damage with AMD.

 

M Prime doubles damage, AMD quadruples and adds AOE in a 15 meter radius.

 

Soma

------------

1259 x 4 x 2 x 10 (10 shots), 100720 damage in a 15 meter radius 

 

Vectis

------------

14263 (no primed chamber) x 4 x 2 = 114104 in a 15 meter radius (142.63x what you said as only)

 

 

Good, that's what other Warframes need to do.  Look, it does not matter what the numbers are.  The numbers are meaningless.  They are not decisive.  I don't play this game to give a hoot about numbers.   The number 1 and the number 10000000..... have the same inherent meaning.  I play this game for FUN.  Fun for me is blowing up a huge pile of enemies, like setting off a volcano or taking a white hot wrecking ball to a 5 story piniata.  I don't play this game for slight differences.  I don't play this game to be impressed by the mooks in their mook waves.  Cannon fodder is not impressive.  The purpose of cannon fodder is to die in droves, preferably with an accompanying light show.  It's the carnage and the light show that is impressive.  That is perfectly logical.

Edited January 25, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Synthua]

Oh man, now somebody has brought up the "only" 800 damage stuff.

 

First off, 800 base. M Prime doubles that to 1600. So for all intensive purposes it does do 1600 damage. Also, each death triggers one, so if your 1600 damage kills a grineer sawman who is capped at level 15 for the rest of the mission along with 4 other friends you just did 8000 AOE damage. That is 10x what you are saying is only 800. Selective logic is best logic.

 

Oh no, not the lvl 15 sawmen! We need all the damage we can get to prevail against the mighty lvl 15 grineer sawmen!

[Cwierz]

Oh no, not the lvl 15 sawmen! We need all the damage we can get to prevail against the mighty lvl 15 grineer sawmen!

Grineer sawmen, if I remember correctly are hard capped at level 15 in every grineer survival. Thats why I brought it up. Also, all things considered you probably couldn't actually acknowledge the rest of the post and chose to pick out one spot to discredit everything.

 

 

 

Good, that's what other Warframes need to do.  Look, it does not matter what the numbers are.  The numbers are meaningless.  They are not decisive.  I don't play this game to give a hoot about numbers.   The number 1 and the number 10000000..... have the same inherent meaning.  I play this game for FUN.  Fun for me is blowing up a huge pile of enemies, like setting off a volcano or taking a white hot wrecking ball to a 5 story piniata.  I don't play this game for slight differences.  I don't play this game to be impressed by the mooks in their mook waves.  Cannon fodder is not impressive.  The purpose of cannon fodder is to die in droves, preferably with an accompanying light show.  It's the carnage and the light show that is impressive.  That is perfectly logical.

I already told you why that doesn't matter. Your fun has nothing to do with nova being balanced at all. I guess you can't understand that however.

Fun and balance are two unrelated concepts. One does not make the other.

However, I guess you still can't understand that simple concept and blindly rage against it.

[Synthua]

Grineer sawmen, if I remember correctly are hard capped at level 15 in every grineer survival. Thats why I brought it up. Also, all things considered you probably couldn't actually acknowledge the rest of the post and chose to pick out one spot to discredit everything.

Why do you use lvl 15 grineer sawmen as a benchmark when experienced players keep telling you that Nova plateaus out hard at HIGH levels?

 

Your math is complete junk. You will never see such numbers because of the simple fact that armor scales with levels. But then, there are 13 pages of experienced players repeating those facts in this thread.

 

Ugh, I am out.

[Cwierz]

Why do you use lvl 15 grineer sawmen as a benchmark when experienced players keep telling you that Nova plateaus out hard at HIGH levels?

 

Your math is complete junk. You will never see such numbers because of the simple fact that armor scales with levels. But then, there are 13 pages of experienced players repeating those facts in this thread.

 

Ugh, I am out.

Because if an M Prime kills 5 of those low level capped sawmen, if also just killed your level 80 baddies. Common sense is a super power.

 

Also, I am very inexperienced. I have not owned nova, nor do I have 500 hours. I have never done this "endgame" that gets thrown around a lot. What is ur point *end sarcasm

 

Also, thats base damage. Guess what? everything else in the game has lower base damage! Considering that they are also affected by armor I presumed it was okay to ya know' list the base damage and call it damage. But I guess not.

[-CM-Syein]

Because if an M Prime kills 5 of those low level capped sawmen, if also just killed your level 80 baddies. Common sense is a super power.

 

Also, I am very inexperienced. I have not owned nova, nor do I have 500 hours. I have never done this "endgame" that gets thrown around a lot. What is ur point *end sarcasm

 

Also, thats base damage. Guess what? everything else in the game has lower base damage! Considering that they are also affected by armor I presumed it was okay to ya know' list the base damage and call it damage. But I guess not.

 

Grineer sawmen, if I remember correctly are hard capped at level 15 in every grineer survival. Thats why I brought it up. Also, all things considered you probably couldn't actually acknowledge the rest of the post and chose to pick out one spot to discredit everything.

 

 

 

I already told you why that doesn't matter. Your fun has nothing to do with nova being balanced at all. I guess you can't understand that however.

Fun and balance are two unrelated concepts. One does not make the other.

However, I guess you still can't understand that simple concept and blindly rage against it.

There are such things as weak in this area but good in the other area. If this is not balance then fine, if it is unbalance, so as other frames?

Loki is very good at doing fast deception/spy mission, Rhino is an all rounder good at everything, Trinity good at support, and Nova good at damage. If this is not balance then I wondered what should it be call. The whole game is balance because there are things that 1 frame can not do alone, Nova is one of those frame. 

[zzang]

 

Side note for zzang: No. The outliers on either end of spectrum are never the best examples of balance. The best examples of balance right now are volt, ember, mag, and loki, if only because their entire kit is useful in a variety of situations,

just stop using the worst frames and calling them balanced seriously btw loki sux

whenever i have a chance to pick a nyx over loki for the team i will do

whenever i have a chance to pick a banshee over a loki for the team i will do

whenever i have a chance to pick a rhino over a loki for the team i will do

whenever i have a chance to pick a nova over a loki for the team i will do

whenever i have a chance to pick a trinity over a loki for the team i will do

 

hell even excalibur is better for the team

 

same goes for all the weak crap frames you named.

 

your definition of balance is beyond whack

Edited January 25, 2014 by zzang

[ThePresident777]

Because if an M Prime kills 5 of those low level capped sawmen, if also just killed your level 80 baddies. Common sense is a super power.

 

Raise the level of the Sawmen.  It'll also help solve the difficulty problem in the game.

 

 

Grineer sawmen, if I remember correctly are hard capped at level 15 in every grineer survival. Thats why I brought it up. Also, all things considered you probably couldn't actually acknowledge the rest of the post and chose to pick out one spot to discredit everything.

 

 

 

I already told you why that doesn't matter. Your fun has nothing to do with nova being balanced at all. I guess you can't understand that however.

Fun and balance are two unrelated concepts. One does not make the other.

However, I guess you still can't understand that simple concept and blindly rage against it.

In other words, we can have fun without balance. Therefore, balance is unnecessary.

 

 

Side note for zzang: No. The outliers on either end of spectrum are never the best examples of balance. The best examples of balance right now are volt, ember, mag, and loki, if only because their entire kit is useful in a variety of situations, whilst also not being overly powerful or weak. That is how every frame should be. A full kit, with useful abilities in each slot that is neither to weak nor to powerful. Rhino would be in this category, but the vanguard helmet exists, and makes me discount him. (If you want my opinion DE should remove their stats from the helms. After all, it was stated in the terms that it is a beta and changes are to be expected.)

 

This is entirely ARBITRARY.  It's just an article of FAITH.  It is ABSTRACT.  You are blindly prejudging a game before you even play it.  Nova is not too powerful at all.  Everything less than Nova is weak and an outlier.

Edited January 25, 2014 by ThePresident777