Help Fix Bows! (That Doesn't Rhyme!)

[slappy330]

 

For once, I found a game where big guys with machine guns are viable, nay, top tier, and I just wanna enjoy it.

 

The fact the bows and snipers in WarFrame are 8 tiers away from the machine guns is the problem..

[Deaths.Reap3r]

I can adapt, indeed, I can kill the most of the time.

But not the way I enjoy, the big guy with a machinegun.

 

For once, I found a game where big guys with machine guns are viable, nay, top tier, and I just wanna enjoy it.

 

Is that really such a bad thing?

But I dont understand. Why not just get the bows up to the same "teir" if you will as the soma and all those other good weapons?

[Demon_Mask]

There is nothing wrong with you enjoying your own play style at all, but the way you are approaching this is a way that makes it seem that we should just deal with the bows we currently have. Just like in the games you were reffering to, should tell you to just deal with having to hide as a heavy. Its like your not even considering our play style just as had been done to you in other games apparently. Furthermore, snipers and bow users AS ENEMIES in this game are extreamly rare and are not that unique as sniper style players, because warframe as a game does not cater for this type of playstyle yet, at least untill stealth is overhauled and actually good. So if a weapon, such as bows are included, why not make them worth it instead of just KINDA fun? We just want an increase in the utillity of bows, beyond the unrewarding stealthy support role they currently fill in a game of mobs of enemies. Another approach to this problem, would to be to make a way bows could become run and gun, though not perfered by me.

On another side note, the role of a sniper player is two fold.

Firstly they dead huge damage to a single target.

Number two. Snipers act as suppressors, using the fear of big damage and high accuracy to instill fear and keep enemies pinned down. So they seem to be doing their job against you in other games.

As a counter argument to the point i just made, warframe as a game needs to overhaul stealth for these roles to actually matter and be viable.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Demon_Mask

[Yastin]

Here's what I think about bows...

 

First off, they need a separate reload/firing speed mod from rifles, as the real killer for multi-targets is the reload, Maybe 60% reload coupled with 60% charge speed. Call it "nimble nocking" or something. This would improve QOL for archers immensely, and would give them an extra slot instead of the nearly required fast hands and speed-trigger..

Secondly, add either a unique perk to all bows, or a set of mods, a damage multiplier for being closer to your target, and a crit chance/crit damage multiplier that increases with the distance your arrow travels. This encourages players to either bring their bow close in and fire fast, legolas style, for lack of a better comparison, or take their time with deadly sniper-shots from afar, rewarding skilled shooting, and actually giving you a reason to stay back with the pseudo-sniper and learn to work the arrow-drop.

 

Lastly, though this is more of a personal opinion, let the archer choose their quiver separately from their bow. Bows should effect damage/draw speed/accuracy/crits/status procs, arrows/quiver selection should effect distribution of damage types. This makes sense, and it makes the three bows different in their own right, while not making them "the anti(insert faction here) bow".

 

Anyways, back to leveling up my Paris... I've forma'd mine four times now, because I'm insane.

[Demon_Mask]

Here's what I think about bows...

First off, they need a separate reload/firing speed mod from rifles, as the real killer for multi-targets is the reload, Maybe 60% reload coupled with 60% charge speed. Call it "nimble nocking" or something. This would improve QOL for archers immensely, and would give them an extra slot instead of the nearly required fast hands and speed-trigger..

Secondly, add either a unique perk to all bows, or a set of mods, a damage multiplier for being closer to your target, and a crit chance/crit damage multiplier that increases with the distance your arrow travels. This encourages players to either bring their bow close in and fire fast, legolas style, for lack of a better comparison, or take their time with deadly sniper-shots from afar, rewarding skilled shooting, and actually giving you a reason to stay back with the pseudo-sniper and learn to work the arrow-drop.

Lastly, though this is more of a personal opinion, let the archer choose their quiver separately from their bow. Bows should effect damage/draw speed/accuracy/crits/status procs, arrows/quiver selection should effect distribution of damage types. This makes sense, and it makes the three bows different in their own right, while not making them "the anti(insert faction here) bow".

Anyways, back to leveling up my Paris... I've forma'd mine four times now, because I'm insane.

Like it! But for the actuall sniping, there is nowhere in warframe for this sadly, we need big stealth maps that actually has microscopic enemies due to distance.

And my dread has had 5 formas and will probably get one last to make 6, i see your bow insanity and raise! :P

Edited January 23, 2014 by Demon_Mask

[Yastin]

Like it! But for the actuall sniping, there is nowhere in warframe for this sadly, we need big stealth maps that actually has microscopic enemies due to distance.

And my dread has had 5 formas and will probably get one last to make 6, i see your bow insanity and raise! :P

 

But the Dread is a "good" bow... The Paris... And I mean the 'nilla Paris, is my weapon of choice. So, y'know... Anyways, let's not start a peeing race, eh? But you'd be surprised. I've successfully used the bow to shoot across the big Corpus defense map, before. And there are definitely some "sniper" tiles in survival... My favorite thing to do is run an ash with Paris, though... I got 3rd place for kills on Apollo, but since I was one-shotting heavies for the latter half, I got 50% of the damage or thereabouts, to my name. Maybe not the most glorious role, but I struck fear into the hearts of those Napalms... And it felt good...

[Serialkillerwhale]

honestly, i'm of the opinion bows are perfectly fine

It's the stealth that needs to be reworked, the ability to sabotage or just plain shoot the alarms so they don't work, alarms that don't radar into your position, but your last seen position and wear off if your not caught, and overall lower their godamn sight radius and starting number.

[Demon_Mask]

But the Dread is a "good" bow... The Paris... And I mean the 'nilla Paris, is my weapon of choice. So, y'know... Anyways, let's not start a peeing race, eh? But you'd be surprised. I've successfully used the bow to shoot across the big Corpus defense map, before. And there are definitely some "sniper" tiles in survival... My favorite thing to do is run an ash with Paris, though... I got 3rd place for kills on Apollo, but since I was one-shotting heavies for the latter half, I got 50% of the damage or thereabouts, to my name. Maybe not the most glorious role, but I struck fear into the hearts of those Napalms... And it felt good...

There are those few examples, but to have some dedicated mission type withbmap design would be wonderful!

And to killerwhales point on bows are fine its stealth needing work, you are only half right and have not really taken anything on board in this thread.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Demon_Mask

[Serialkillerwhale]

Bows don't need more dps when not in a brawl.

 

In those cases, killing single targets quickly is more important, and doing so silently, paramount.

 

being able to do so from outside of melee range is greatly useful.

 

Thus bows.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

Bows don't need more dps when not in a brawl.

 

In those cases, killing single targets quickly is more important, and doing so silently, paramount.

 

being able to do so from outside of melee range is greatly useful.

 

Thus bows.

Ok, but whats the benefit of stealth?

You just waste your time, even if you are rewarded, your still wasting your time. And stealth cant be applied to the 2 most common missions... Defense and Survival...

 

And on top of that, if your playing with a team, chances are at least 1 person in your squad will get tired of stealth because its too long.

And then if you say play stealth alone, then your saying bows are good only for stealth...

Edited January 23, 2014 by Deaths.Reap3r

[Noble_Cactus]

Today we got three Stalker attacks back-to-back, and between murdering him with his own kunai and dodging his arrows, I realized something. This guy can shoot arrows really, really fast. As in zipzipzip, three arrows down the line. Why can't we fire arrows that quickly? It would reward players who could lead their targets in the heat of the moment while drastically increasing potential DPS. It'd also further differentiate bows from true snipers.

 

EDIT: Such an effect would probably have to be noticeable only after mods (Speed Trigger, Shred).

Edited January 23, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Demon_Mask]

Serialkillerwhale. Why would I use my five forma dreadand bow to silently take out close mobs when I can use my five forma despair?

And currently I only stealth when I want to challenge and reward my self at the same time, and that reward is just a personal reward and close to nothing substantial.

[Monolake]

Bows don't need more dps when not in a brawl.

 

In those cases, killing single targets quickly is more important, and doing so silently, paramount.

 

being able to do so from outside of melee range is greatly useful.

 

Thus bows.

More DPS lets you kill single target faster as well, you know, and deal with crowds too, no downside. And all the bows are worse than MK1/Lato DPS-wise and significantly worse than sniper rifels 1-shot damage wise (and DPS too). And there are other silent weapons much better than bows. 

 

If you like bows there is no contradiction, this is not about dissing bows, its about making them better.  Bows need to be buffed to be viable at higher levels, now you have to play low lvl missions to have fun with them.

[Noble_Cactus]

Ogris is the best bow.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

We could raise the DPS with bows perhaps if there was an actually targeting system for the multiple arrow idea.

For example, you have three arrows. You charge your bow and move over an enemy and right click, and again to two more enemies. And indicator shows the enemies you have selected and your warframe automatically shoots all three targets at once.

But, for another example, if you marked an enemy that was not within the bows sights, your warframe will simply turn towards the direction of the last enemy(s).

Edited January 23, 2014 by Kunsumption

[Eruend]

Space ninja bows from the future need a buff (not nessessarilly damage). They can't all be running around with riffles and rocket launchers. To hell with logic and what one person in particular thinks about how snipers and bows should inherently suck because he can't stand not being all-mighty without actually putting skill into it. This is a PvE game, bows are fun and this isn't an e-peen contest. Let them shine.

 

tldr: Just TRY and argument that this game has good PvP. I DARE you.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Eruend

[Demon_Mask]

That's a cool idea!

[Serialkillerwhale]

So it takes skill?

You actually time reloads, run around phroid keeping trained on his center of mass instead of wherever the hell you want, some guns have spread.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

So it takes skill?

You actually time reloads, run around phroid keeping trained on his center of mass instead of wherever the hell you want, some guns have spread.

My soma can take out phroid in less than 2 mags.

And thats without a max serration, no heavy caliber, and not even a maxed vital sense (the crit damage mod, I think thats what its called)

Guns don't take AS MUCH skill to use as bows.

Bows don't really take too much skill but to aim those headshots with bows takes a bit more skill.

With a properly modded gun, you can just take out an entire room with your eyes closed just moving your mouse horizontally the entire time.

Even if you mod a bow, your still not going to be able to do anything close to that...

[Serialkillerwhale]

True, but to actually get the full deal out of it, you have to restrain your ammo usage, considering it's comparatively long reload.

 

And quite a few bosses don't even have heads for a large portion of their fight and some regulars too, case in point, the drone, troller, infested crawler, corpus crewman (Ok it does have a head, but that godamn brick helmet makes it pointless to shoot at it). in which case only having to snap off an single shot with a rifle anywhere on the body is arguably easier than holding center-of-mass target.

 

Now if bosses were actually difficult this would matter.

 

But in reality, nope.

 

TAKE NOTES DE: WE WANT BOSSES EVERY 20 WAVES OF DEFENSE/SURVIVAL THAT DROP USEFUL THINGS

Edited January 24, 2014 by Serialkillerwhale

[Eruend]

You... are an interesting person to say the least. You start by preaching how bows should stay crappy in sole favor of your personal play style, then you defend them. I must say you have me confused. Are you per-chance trolling? If you are, well played sir.

 

For the record, yes, it's easy to hit an immobile mass of flesh with any non-hitscan weapon at mid to point blank range. I fail to see your point.

 

Also, bosses at every 20 waves/minutes would defeat the purpose of assassination runs. We don't need to limit mission types so everything is easier to obtain. Would get boring fast and would be bad for business.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Eruend

[TheOnlyWarBear]

I just want to comment on this Bow hating fellow. Not to be rude, but I have come to realize something.

You, Serialkillerwhale, are not required to use a bow.

If you are so good at tanking and clearing a room without looking, you shouldn't have a problem with "Bow Competition." Nobody here said you needed to stop using your play style, but hell, let people enjoy theirs. You don't have to deny every idea to buff the bow, that is being selfish.

 

Selfish, how, you may ask?

 

In your head, "If bows get better, then I suck." Now, this is only my mere assumption, but it may prove true to everyone else here.

 

Your ability to clear a room and tank with your Rhino should not be affected by another player using a bow.

 

Show some courtesy, allow players their fun, and stop being selfish.

[EvilKam]

Okay, chiming in on this.Deaths.Reap3r has some good points.  Serialkillerwhale, your argument is a very true "OMG BOWS ARE SO FREAKING OVERDONE, CAN WE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, MOVE BACK INTO THE FREAKING MODERN WORLD?"

 

I see both sides of this equation.  I'm on Reap3r's side though.  Its perfectly fine if bows are not the top weapons in the game.  I'd LOVE to use a bow in Warframe.  I WOULD!.  But right now, I'm on a completely different insane quest.  I'm buffing up my MK1.

 

I've noticed something.  My engagement range is bigger.  Go ahead and run a level.  Pick an enemy that's "Kinda Far" from you.  Kill it.  Mark your feet with a waypoint, and go to the enemy's corpse.  What was your engagement range?  My delightfully accurate MK1 is pushing me towards 50 meter ranges, where I honestly feel comfortable headshotting enemies with it's fantastic accuracy of 40.0.  The problem:  There's little opportunity to do this.

 

The fact is, I'd be willing to bet that over 95% of Warframe combat takes place within a very short range, I'd guess 30 meters.  Sniper rifles ARE COOL.  You get to hang back in the far reaches of combat taking out your foes.  That's why snipers are powerful "weapons" in real life.  One skilled shooter can sit beyond sight, wreaking havoc on enemy lines, causing discord, and destroying morale.

 

Until we get some HUGE tilesets, sniping and bows, in their current form, will NEVER be realistic.  In order to utilize them properly, we would need to create stable maps, or gargantuan tile maps, with rooms double their current size.  The Corpus and Grineer ship hangars would have to fit inside of these rooms.  

 

In warframe, a 40 meter shot is "long range".  I don't know what secondary weapon allows you to chew through a crowd the way a rifle does.  So it's impossible to use a bow or sniper rifle effectively, because soon enough, you'll be facing down a crowd of enemies looking to chew your skin off, or beat it to a pulp.  In this case, you need to be able to slaughter the horde.  The sniper is a polar opposite of this playstyle.  Warframe is the polar opposite of a sniper's game.

Bows and sniper rifles therefore both must be balanced towards the way that Warframe is actually played.

 

 Serialkillerwhale, I get it man.  I do.  Crysis 3 was on it's knees performing fellatio on the bow so hard that I can still feel it from where I'm sitting right now, and I haven't even played Crysis 3.  I see where you're coming from.  Hawkeye has no excuse for being in the Avengers movie, and yet, THERE HE IS!  COME THE #$%^ ON!  IRON MAN shoots LASER BEAMS and SMART MISSILES, Thor can throw a HURRICANE AT YOU, and the Hulk can literally lift the freaking MOON.  How the #$%! does "Arrow Guy" even FIT in that group?

 

Deaths.Reap3risn't asking for bows to step up to match the Soma.  Hell, he's not even asking for it to match the Karak!  He's asking for a bow weapon to at least be a valid choice in this game.  As it stands now, they aren't.  Well, not on single player, but that's a different rant, and I'm not up to it right now.  Reaper is okay with bows being, ultimately, second class citizens.  The guy with the Soma, Supra, and Ignis are perfectly fine sitting on the top of the world, occupying that coveted "I am more awesome than you are" pedestal.  Right now, bows are "third class" citizens.  Why do they HAVE to suck, since in history they were the kings of the battlefield, and today, STILL remain viable weapons due to damage and versatility.

 

The opportunities to utilize them are too few and far between, and they do not serve as viable weapon choices.  I'd love to become a bow user, but until they get some form of love, I just can't do it.  Maybe my Cestra will turn out to be the sidearm that solves all my problems, and I can carry that Paris.  But right now, I NEED a Karak-tier gun as a primary, because I can't risk the low DPS of a bow.  Nothing in my list of secondaries will clear me of the "crap, here they come" danger.

 

It's like the Latron and Latron Prime.  NOONE ever uses them because they just can't put the enemies down fast enough.  My BRATON carves up enemies better than those pieces of fecal matter.

 

And there is no reason that a Tenno skilled in the bow should fire more slowly than a real archer.  We're freaking MAGICAL SPACE NINJAS!  If the PENTA can fire bullets with a 100% chance to blow up, so can a bow.  Bows were doing it way before rifles were.  Strapping a chunk of dynamite to an arrow isn't some sort of futuristic weapon development.

[Serialkillerwhale]

Eh, I might be overeacting from endless "one shot madness" but yeah, I see your point.

 

But strapping bomb to bow also made bow less accurate. What with bomb adding weight to bow. oh F*** it space ninjas.

But no, bows were never "King" That was infantry.

The Gladius was the sword that conquered the world after all.

 

Speaking of which, ADD GLADIUS STYLE SWORD!!!!

Just me being a history nut :P

 

My point with survival/defense spawning bosses is because bosses are too easy right now compared to fifty week survival/defense. Bosses should be the hard point of the game.

 

Current sub-classes of weapons are at norm,

11k DPS for Machineguns 10K for Shotguns 9K for Assault Riflesand 6K for Snipers, would 5K Average DPS be enough for bows? (Note that a silenced sniper will be roughly the same as bow)

 

Hawkeye is an avenger because he can also aim other things good, which we don't see in the movie tho, too bad, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes had a scene where he shot the supports of a wormhole down while flying through said wormhole

Edited January 24, 2014 by Serialkillerwhale

[Eruend]

But no, bows were never "King" That was infantry.

The Gladius was the sword that conquered the world after all.

Tell that to the Mongols and Chinese. Bows played an insanely important role back then in China. Which is bigger then any other conquered land to this date, and still holds. :p

 

But I agree. a Gladius would be sweet.

 

I get what you mean for boss fights, but they've been working on that for a while now. It's not an easy issue to fix when weapons perform at such different levels. Everything is easy with Soma, but not so much for the guy who really loves his Dera. Should the Dera guy be shafted in favor of the Soma guy? Then there are all the mods. Don't worry too much about bosses. They are too easy now, doesn't mean they'll stay that way forever. DE will end up striking the right balance. They've made ALOT of progress on that bit over time. Anyway, this is going off topic.

 

Snipers and bows aren't about DPS. They are about one reliable shot to assist the team through tough situations. Which is not something the game is too keen on providing atm. So how can a sniper/bow be as fun as machine guns and whatnot without stealing the show? That right there is the real question.

 

I believe there would be ways to make exclussive mods that would help in that domain. I already discussed them in this topic: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/166930-why-cant-high-end-bows-do-as-much-damage-as-sniper-rifles/page-2

 

There are probably other solutions, probably some better ones too. And if bows and snipers out-shine the other guns because of these mods, nothing's keeping the other gun types from having some too. Just need to think outside the box. Give each gun type its niche. Its own flavor without making it insanely situational. Simply playing with stats won't solve the issue.

 

Important parts in this game are fun factor, and variety. Balance is a distant third.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Eruend