Why Can't High End Bows Do As Much Damage As Sniper Rifles?

[TheJiggliestPoo]

While sniper rifles don't have the ragdoll damage affect, they do have the benefit of easy of use due to hitscan and can kill more enemies in a period of time compared to bows especially due to mods such as primed/charged chamber. This is in addition to the higher damage built into the sniper rifles. Giving high-end bows equal base damage to sniper rifles won't invalidate sniper rifles due to the ease of use and sniper-only mods.

[Angius]

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

[TheJiggliestPoo]

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

 

Why would you want to balance weapons based on realism...

 

Speaking of realism, bows can send over 200 pounds of grineer flying across the map at insane velocities leading to a much higher kinetic force so it should do more damage than sniper rifles.

Edited January 22, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Makya]

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

Depends on the draw strength of the string and stick.

 

Speaking of realism, bows can send over 200 pounds of grineer flying across the map at insane velocities leading to a much higher kinetic force so it should do more damage than sniper rifles.

Don't forget the part about pinning them to walls and killing units between them and the wall.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Makya

[Shadow-Blades]

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

 

Based on one of the world's oldest weapon designs, this Tenno-crafted weapon can be used both in stealth and in open combat. The PARIS uses a chargeable magnetic field to launch arrows capable of impaling enemies to walls.

 

Reading descriptions FTW

[hellicop]

Then again.

 

1. Lanka isn't hitscan so not ALL of them are ;).

2. Bows don't need a reload.

3. Thunderbolt (personal choice, but at least something vs. multiple targets snipers don't have)

4. Bows don't need a reload!

5. Base damage is actually not really that much higher on snipers

6. Bows don't need a reload!!!

 

@Angius: Real world logic is irrelevent in a sci-fi video game when talking about stuff like weapon damage. Hell we can just say they use a gavitiy generator in the shape of a bow to accelerate a arrow shaped micro plasma torch to bullet like velocities... or you know.. ANY silly "explaination" we want.

 

Besides we play a game were bullets are hitscan and frigging lasers are not!!!! If you want to start bringing realism in this start with the elephant in the room ;).

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Then again.

 

1. Lanka isn't hitscan so not ALL of them are ;).

2. Bows don't need a reload.

3. Thunderbolt (personal choice, but at least something vs. multiple targets snipers don't have)

4. Bows don't need a reload!

5. Base damage is actually not really that much higher on snipers

6. Bows don't need a reload!!!

 

@Angius: Real world logic is irrelevent in a sci-fi video game when talking about stuff like weapon damage. Hell we can just say they use a gavitiy generator in the shape of a bow to accelerate a arrow shaped micro plasma torch to bullet like velocities... or you know.. ANY silly "explaination" we want.

 

Besides we play a game were bullets are hitscan and frigging lasers are not!!!! If you want to start bringing realism in this start with the elephant in the room ;).

1. Lanka still fires at a much faster velocity than bows and has built in electric damage

2. Bows reload after every shot....

3. Thunderbolt is worthless and does not scale in damage. Using thunderbolt is not viable after lvl 15

4. Bows RELOAD after EVERY SHOT

5. Base damage is much lower than sniper (200 vs 150 for paris prime  or lower for other bows)

6. BOWS RELOAD AFTER EVERY GODAM SHOT

[Faulcun]

bows are OP.

 

[Makya]

2. Bows don't need a reload.

4. Bows don't need a reload!

6. Bows don't need a reload!!!

They do, after every arrow is their reload. Fast hands shortens the animation.

 

3. Thunderbolt (personal choice, but at least something vs. multiple targets snipers don't have)

This does a set amount of damage, which becomes useless at even medium levels.

 

5. Base damage is actually not really that much higher on snipers

Lanka: 250, Paris Prime: 149

 

 

bows are OP.

 

When in a level 12 survival, what doesn't seem OP when fully leveled and fully modded?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Makya

[CubedOobleck]

To be fair bows are innately silent, but I agree that they could be stronger considering the arc and travel time makes them that much harder to use.

 

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

Well, those arrows look heavier than a sniper bullet, so they need less speed to have the same kinetic energy. And either way we are talking about a game where railgun projectiles are slower than regular bullets, so there's no need to be overly realistic.

Edited January 22, 2014 by CubedOobleck

[Faulcun]

When in a level 12 survival, what doesn't seem OP when fully leveled and fully modded?

 

Well, thats my point. at the end of that 30 min, the enemies were  around lvl 40. And that was before the scaling nerf.

 

So what is it that people want? To cry because they cant pick something up and immediately obliterate everything?

 

Or maybe spend a little time with the weapons and learn how to use it. Somebody made the comment about thunderbolt being useless after lvl 15. I more than doubled that and proved that isnt true in that video. That build is more than capable of being reliable much further than lvl 40 too.

 

The other issue is people keep comparing them to sniper rifles. They are not. the mechanics are completely different and should not be treated the same in any regard.

 

Bottom line is, the paris prime and dread are both more than viable. People are just doing it wrong.

[Makya]

Well, thats my point. at the end of that 30 min, the enemies were  around lvl 40. And that was before the scaling nerf.

Again, weaker mobs. What you seem to be ignoring is that bows do roughly half the damage as snipers rifles, and in the case of the Vectis, it is also hitscan and doesn't need to worry about bullet drop. There is actually a sniper rifle on par with the Bows, the Vulkar, what is seen as a trashy sniper rifle from its low damage.

Somebody made the comment about thunderbolt being useless after lvl 15. I more than doubled that and proved that isnt true in that video. That build is more than capable of being reliable much further than lvl 40 too.

I repeat, it is useless. Just because it is on the bow doesn't mean it is doing much. You can watch the video you linked, the blast of the TB is hardly noticed to surrounding units, the damage to kill the units is coming from the bow itself. TB only does 250 total Blast damage. This does not scale with the bow, this does not scale with other mods.

 

Bottom line is, the paris prime and dread are both more than viable. People are just doing it wrong.

Yes they are 'viable' in the same sense that the Miter is 'viable'.

[CephalonShy]

I use 3 formed paris prime all the time. Does well against enemies till lvl 70, havent checked further.

[Naqel]

Bows can't be better because DE dosen't really know how to properly take advantage of the systems they already have implemented.

 

That applies to most weapons though, and the source of it is within the mod system execution.

 

 

1. Lanka [...] has built in electric damage

 

Having elemental base damage is a disadvantage within the current system.

It limits your flexibility when (not)using element combinations, and prevents you from taking advantage of physical damage faction modifiers, which often are more beneficial than the elemental ones.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Naqel

[Faulcun]

I use 3 formed paris prime all the time. Does well against enemies till lvl 70, havent checked further.

yes, thank you. I've used my dread on outer T.  till around wave 45 i think before we got what we wanted. I did not have any issues.

 

But I guess some people expect to be awesome just because they pick up a weapon, rather than because of how they use it.

[Noble_Cactus]

It's not really their individual per-arrow damage output that's the issue. As you've noted, it actually does well against what's considered endgame material (unless you go into super high levels, but nothing's intended to work well at that point and almost every weapon struggles). It's that they're not doing enough damage per multiple targets. With a standard automatic rifle like the Soma, you're constantly dishing out somewhat lower damage to multiple targets at a time, thus killing them faster. With the Vectis, you're dealing high damage to a single (or multiple with Shred/Metal Auger) enemy on demand because it is hitscan and all you have to do is take the time to line up a good shot.

 

With bows, you have to nock the arrow, lead the target, take aim, hope lag doesn't screw you over, hope the target doesn't spasm out of the way like enemies usually do in this game, then fire to kill one guy or multiple with the punch-through mods. And that's before the Mag pulls your target out of the way right when you shoot, or the guy with the Penta makes the screen quake and you lose your aim. The Vectis and Lanka have that issue too, but they can recover and fire off another shot quicker.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Faulcun]

With bows, you have to nock the arrow, lead the target, take aim, hope lag doesn't screw you over, hope the target doesn't spasm out of the way like enemies usually do in this game, then fire to kill one guy or multiple with the punch-through mods. And that's before the Mag pulls your target out of the way right when you shoot, or the guy with the Penta makes the screen quake and you lose your aim. The Vectis and Lanka have that issue too, but they can recover and fire off another shot quicker.

 

Exactly. Bows actually require a bit of skill to do well with. Thats why everybody is so butthurt.

 

Bows are NOT sniper rifles. The sooner people stop comparing bows to sniper rifles, the sooner they will start doing better. If you want to compare a bow to something, compare it to something with the SAME game mechanics.... like another bow.

[Ronyn]

This is a sci fi video game, aspects of reality are only relevant for flavor text and inspiration.

We all know that. It's not worth arguing over.

In a game-weapons are meant to be balanced enough that a player may chose what they prefer without lessening their potential in combat.

Better and worse weapons are meant to be decided by things like rank to acquire.

 

Yes with skillful use the bows in warframe can be effective but they are behind the curve on damage output compared to the time they take to shoot. The math is obvious. 

 

Bows one advantage is that they are silent. However, there is a mod for rifles that will make them silent as well. 

Currently bows simply do not have a niche where they are the best (or even equal) choice compared to other options.

 

BTW-DE is aware of how bows are lagging behind and they are looking into it.

[Phantasmo]

What is more powerfull - sniper rifle bullet powered by highly explosive material, or stick powered by a string and a stick, even the most futuristic one?

 

You would be surprised.

 

Bear in mind that arrows are razor sharp. They can penetrate through some bulletproof vests that even assault rifles can't.

[Eruend]

Exactly. Bows actually require a bit of skill to do well with. Thats why everybody is so butthurt.

 

Bows are NOT sniper rifles. The sooner people stop comparing bows to sniper rifles, the sooner they will start doing better. If you want to compare a bow to something, compare it to something with the SAME game mechanics.... like another bow.

I disagree. The people are buthurt because despite needing more skill, bows offer nothing in return. The risk/reward on bows is screwed. They offer less then weapons that give out results in similar ways, with less effort. This is why bows suck. They do need a buff, and that can mean anything from higher numbers to a re-work of the mechanics.

 

You don't like comparing bows to snipers, but lets face it. The end results are clear. Snipers do a better job at killing a single target in one hit. Which bows seem to try to do. Snipers can also punch through, so let's not get into semantics. That said, snipers occupy a limited niche to begin with, seeing as they only truly shine in higher level content, where riffles in general start to fall off. Meaning that bows poorly emulate a weapon type with already situational uses.

 

You can be good with a piece of crap, won't make it any less of a piece of crap. If you like using bows despite this, more power to you. Nothing wrong in using and mastering a weapon you like.

 

Lastly, not to ruffle your feathers or anything, but would you mind elaborating on how you think bows are good? Your arguments all seem to revolve around how bows aren't like snipers and how people who disagree with you are just bad at the game or something, without actually bringing anything tangible to your cause. If you say they shouldn't be thought as snipers, then what should they be thought as? How is it that you use them that makes them so different?

Edited January 23, 2014 by Eruend

[Faulcun]

I disagree. The people are buthurt because despite needing more skill, bows offer nothing in return. The risk/reward on bows is screwed. They offer less then weapons that give out results in similar ways, with less effort. This is why bows suck. They do need a buff, and that can mean anything from higher numbers to a re-work of the mechanics.

 

You don't like comparing bows to snipers, but lets face it. The end results are clear. Snipers do a better job at killing a single target in one hit. Which bows seem to try to do. Snipers can also punch through, so let's not get into semantics. That said, snipers occupy a limited niche to begin with, seeing as they only truly shine in higher level content, where riffles in general start to fall off. Meaning that bows poorly emulate a weapon type with already situational uses.

 

You can be good with a piece of crap, won't make it any less of a piece of crap. If you like using bows despite this, more power to you. Nothing wrong in using and mastering a weapon you like.

 

Lastly, not to ruffle your feathers or anything, but would you mind elaborating on how you think bows are good? Your arguments all seem to revolve around how bows aren't like snipers and how people who disagree with you are just bad at the game or something, without actually bringing anything tangible to your cause. If you say they shouldn't be thought as snipers, then what should they be thought as? How is it that you use them that makes them so different?

 

no feathers ruffled at all. I agree that you need to be on point if all you are doing is running through a level solely using a bow (no melee, no 2nd, no powers). Your shots need to be almost perfect, and lining enemies up to take advantage of the penetration-on-death mechanic. Adding thunderbolt makes things much easier and gives the bow a crowd control capability. Regardless of what people say about TB or how much damage it does, split chamber gives you a 60% chance to fire TB and you are still doing damage to multiple enemies instead of only one. Plus if you get lucky and they both go off, well then thats 500 extra damage without even trying.

 

Now I personally find that the bows really shine when you use them in conjunction with everything else you have. Im talking about synergy here.  I like to bring a glaive with mine so I can still deal damage in between shots where I can use my movement and position to take advantage of damage on return while its pulling the next arrow. By the time it returns, I have the next shot ready.

 

I use speed trigger on mine instead of fast hands. Reason is the reload time is easy to deal with even in the middle of enemies. The draw is what matters because it is almost instant with the mod. Even if you are running around, as long as you have an arrow out, you can charge and fire at full power in a fraction of a second which makes all the difference if you get caught by surprise.

 

Both the paris prime and the dread make great 50/50 crit builds. That alone is worth it to me. These bows really can deal some massive damage at 200% base plus crit damage mod. Yes I admit these weapons have a lot of factors that can effect the outcome, but you cant expect to just walk into the room and deal the wrath of god to everything with one trigger pull every time. In the video you can see my primary use is the dread, and I used my powers and glaive as support only when needed. But you see I use them in support of what im doing at the time with the bow.

 

If I HAD to pick another type of unrelated weapon to compare it to, I would suggest they are better suited as a shotgun with slugs rather than spread. Because of the slower travel time and the higher learning curve to compensate, plus drop over distance, only standard zoom and taking the crowd control aspect... I think most will find themselves using them at mid to close range anyways. You are right about sniper rifles being situational. I absolutely love my lanka. It is a total monster for sure. But when used as described  above, I firmly feel bows are more versatile in a wider spectrum of situations than a sniper rifle is, especially when dealing with closer combat. And thats coming from a guy who's go-to weapon of choice is the lanka for everything.

 

I dont think that everybody who disagrees with me is bad at the game. I think that most havent even really given it a chance to even remotely understand it. Then when they cant "press 4 to win" so-to-speak, you can find them screaming for buffs. I wont deny that a small numbers increase wouldnt be nice, but these weapons arent near as bad as people make them out to be. Every weapon has positives and negatives. You have to play to the positives, and compensate for the negatives. Thats what your other weapons, and powers are for. Most people I see barely realize they have other powers than the number 4 button. Plus im willing to bet most people here have barely put a catalyst on their bow. If you apply these simple concepts to every weapon you pick up, I think people would find you dont really have to work any harder with a bow than other weapons.

 

I have more that id like to say, but its 6am. Id be happy to discuss it more with you later.

[Eruend]

Well said. I'll need to do some tests under your perspective to come up with a proper retort.

[Faulcun]

You are gonna be my new best friend :)

 

I posted a video further up on page one. In that video we went 30 min survival on a corpus map. We chose that map because we needed N. Sensors. Unfortunately the enemies start off weak, but raise up to around level 40 by the time we were done. Again, I want to point out that was before the scaling nerf which means the scaling curve was pretty crazy at that point.

 

Anyways, by the end of that mission I had around 700 kills, most of which with the dread. The concept im trying to explain here is the same that I explain to my clanmates. Ive had some guys mimic my builds and frames and they cant reproduce my results. Its not about the kills. Its about how well everything you have synergizes together. Its simply about how well you effectively use all of your assets together. If you enter into the mission with the idea that this "one" weapon is going to be the reason that makes you a badass, you will struggle. You can watch this when you see people start to spam 4 because they dont understand why their weapons are inneffective and get overwhelmed. Not to mention their builds probably dont synergize with anything anyways.

 

My sent is set up to drop shields, my lanka is set to attack armor directly, my melee is designed to attack health directly, and my 2nd is designed to knock things down. Are people using gas and magnetic against grineer? Are they using corrosive and heat against corpus? I would hope not, but then again you never know.

 

Now this concept doesnt work with bows, but the glaive is a MUST with charge weapons that have a normal reload animation. The glaive will buff the reload animation, and if im not mistaken some powers will do it as well. Allow the reload to reach half way, then throw the glaive. As soon as your glaive leaves your hands, your weapon is reloaded. This works great with the lanka or the ogris and other similar weapons. The idea behind it is another way that you can constantly be on the offensive rather than having to wait for a reload. That is one way you can compensate for a weapon's negative.

 

If you become effecient at applying these simple concepts, then id like to propose that Banshee makes a better rhino than Rhino does :p

[Yastin]

Serration+heavy caliber+multishot+toxic damage = ultimate anti-corpus melee-bow. Remember, toxic damage goes straight through shields... I really wish my bow could be viable without multishot and heavy cal, though...

[KoshLovesYou]

I think this thread really underscores the importance of looking at a weapons rate of fire and reload speed when considering DoT, and not just the core damage the weapon does.