Luck Is The Only Way To Progress In Update 7.

[CosyPigeon]

Rendering :|

Please ready your excuses.

All dungeon crawlers have parts where it's more efficient to speed run some parts. You may as well say that the some of the best games of all time are terribly designed. Also, you're implying that speed running a mission can't be fun. I'd suggest that in the future that you refrain from forcing your preferences on people. Having to speed run some low level missions every now than for maybe an hour total isn't exactly a taxing thing to do. Also, if you don't want to speed run you can always just grind defense missions. Now you're going to tell me they should get rid of grinding in a dungeon crawler.

You call people scrubs for not playing how you play and then say I'm the one forcing preferences on people?

I'm not gonna say there shouldn't be grinding in a dungeon crawler, I'm just gonna say that the grind for something that is supposed to be 'common' shouldn't be so ridiculous, and that not all of the grind should be based on items that drop on the ground randomly.

Edited March 27, 2013 by CosyPigeon

[WhiteSteel]

You're saying the game is totally luck based but the fact that mods no longer have random values makes the game less luck based, it's not like it isn't to the point of the thread. I doubt you could ever need thousands of mods to max a mod, but what I said is the number of mods of the same card as the mod you want to max that it takes to max them. If you use fusion cores, yeah you need A LOT more, but that is a whole other story, the devs told us old mods would be "super-valuable" but they hardly are. If you use mods that are not the same as the one you are upgrading, from what I've seen, you need a few more mods but I don't think it's much more than those I calculated.

But about shield mods being hard to get to a few people, perhaps there should be a guaranteed way to get that first shield mod, but I'm not convinced that's really necessary.

[Aggh]

Phoirid run, no shield mod, amg. Absolutely need shield mods. OR NOT.

http://youtu.be/6AZ6eSy202E

The ironic thing is that shield mods are technically even less important since his spikes ignore them.

You call people scrubs for not playing how you play and then say I'm the one forcing preferences on people?

I'm not gonna say there shouldn't be grinding in a dungeon crawler, I'm just gonna say that the grind for something that is supposed to be 'common' shouldn't be so ridiculous, and that not all of the grind should be based on items that drop on the ground randomly.

No, I call them scrubs for playing unintelligently. Letting spraying blindly while running blindly into groups of enemies be effective is the worst kind of game design, it should never be viable.

You're saying the game is totally luck based but the fact that mods no longer have random values makes the game less luck based, it's not like it isn't to the point of the thread. I doubt you could ever need thousands of mods to max a mod, but what I said is the number of mods of the same card as the mod you want to max that it takes to max them. If you use fusion cores, yeah you need A LOT more, but that is a whole other story, the devs told us old mods would be "super-valuable" but they hardly are. If you use mods that are not the same as the one you are upgrading, from what I've seen, you need a few more mods but I don't think it's much more than those I calculated.

But about shield mods being hard to get to a few people, perhaps there should be a guaranteed way to get that first shield mod, but I'm not convinced that's really necessary.

Shield mods are hard to get for most people. There is no denying that. I've gotten two of them and I definitely play more than the average player; regular 30-50 mod runs on xini should eventually yield a shield mod. I got my first on m prime and my second on a random venus defense mission. Shield mod drop rates definitely need to be increased within the early levels, maybe with the best chances being somehwere in europa and sedna (ie right before shield mods start becoming necessary). This would encourage people to play carefully so they can get into further systems faster, or grind a bit more in earlier systems so that they can advance to other levels with a bit more room for error.

Unless you gte lucky and get a bunch of strong mods...

then its extra easy.

What some folks dont seem to notice is that luck swings both ways.

Which isn't hard at all. With endless defense you can get 30-50 mods in one run :|

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[CosyPigeon]

You're saying the game is totally luck based but the fact that mods no longer have random values makes the game less luck based, it's not like it isn't to the point of the thread. I doubt you could ever need thousands of mods to max a mod, but what I said is the number of mods of the same card as the mod you want to max that it takes to max them. If you use fusion cores, yeah you need A LOT more, but that is a whole other story, the devs told us old mods would be "super-valuable" but they hardly are. If you use mods that are not the same as the one you are upgrading, from what I've seen, you need a few more mods but I don't think it's much more than those I calculated.

But about shield mods being hard to get to a few people, perhaps there should be a guaranteed way to get that first shield mod, but I'm not convinced that's really necessary.

But you’re ignoring that prior to update 7, mods weren’t the only form of upgrades. Levelling had its own benefit outside of mods. Prior update 7, you had skill tree plus mods, mods where random, not gonna argue that, skill tree upgrades from levelling where not random. Now update 7 is here, skill tree is gone, and mods are only form of upgrades. Mod drops are random, mods themselves are less random, but the drops are completely luck based. End result: progression based entirely on luck.

Edited March 27, 2013 by CosyPigeon

[WhiteSteel]

I personally like how the game is balanced right now, it's more challenging. Luck is definitly not the only way to progress, there is also skill. As many people pointed out already.

Stat-wise I think it's not based on luck because of the reasons I mentioned. And putting upgrade trees back isn't the only way to solve that shield mod situation. Increasing the drop rate on shield mods would be a much more viable way. Or if there was a 99% chance to get a shield mod you'd still complain because it uses RNG? lol RNG isn't the devil, you can tune things up.

[MJ12]

I personally like how the game is balanced right now, it's more challenging. Luck is definitly not the only way to progress, there is also skill. As many people pointed out already.

Stat-wise I think it's not based on luck because of the reasons I mentioned. And putting upgrade trees back isn't the only way to solve that shield mod situation. Increasing the drop rate on shield mods would be a much more viable way. Or if there was a 99% chance to get a shield mod you'd still complain because it uses RNG? lol RNG isn't the devil, you can tune things up.

It's 'more challenging' because they added in the fake difficulty of 'having to either grind boring missions in a boring speedrun fashion or be ~super duper good~ at this game/cheese the Infested AI on top of a box'. This is not a good thing because except for the people who think 'difficulty' is a good in and of itself, instead of a means to a good, it's going to drive players away. And yes, it is entirely based on luck. Before, if you wanted more shields, you could use shield upgrade nodes. Now, if you want more shields? "Get a deflection mod or bust".

More important is the fact that totally luck-based, totally mod-based level-ups make leveling up feel completely and utterly empty. Before, leveling-up was fun. Now it's just "yaaaaaawn I leveled up. 1/2 more points of mod energy whoooo." When a game's longevity is entirely based on leveling-up all your stuff, this is the ultimate sin. Considering the fact that a ton of low-end 'common' mods like Deflection/Vitality/Serration/Point Blank/Hornet Strike are $&*&*#(%&ly overpowered because they took out basic stat improvements and had to make stuff viable in the lategame some other way, it'd be way easier and infinitely more balanced to just make them less overpowered and give us basic stat improvements back than playing around with drop probabilities.

There's a reason no dungeon-crawler does 'totally drop-based advancement'. RNG is, in fact, a huge problem not only because with a sufficiently large sample size you will get players who will get screwed out of basic mods but because it also gives the impression that you can be screwed, and also gives a scapegoat for literally everything. Which means that players are going to be blaming the game for every little thing.

Now, random drops are a fine way to deal with things you want but don't need. You could totally go through Diablo II from Normal to Hell without any farming, just using what decent gear you found along the way, because the game was balanced with the assumption that you'd never need the overpowered uniques you wanted. At all. You'd die a bunch more but death doesn't have much of a penalty.

Unless the game is balanced so an average player can solo Pluto with no mods whatsoever (and at that point you're going to whine "the game is too easy!") some sort of passive advancement is necessary. Why, exactly, are you so opposed to the idea of actual advancement in Warframes and weapons? What is the problem with this, which would allow not only additional customization (because people pretty much need to drop 33% of their slots on survivability now since 'glass cannon' builds don't work when you're losing ~90% of your survivability for maybe a 30% increase in damage) which improves the mod system because it adds more customization...

...but also gives you a significant margin of error on drop rates, reincentivizes leveling-up (which creates the longevity of the game), and also allows players to actually enjoy the game at their own pace instead of farm-farm-farm?

[WhiteSteel]

Yes you read my mind, I would definitly whine "the game is too easy!" xD Well, I'm not really opposed to having some advancement beyond the mods, it does make leveling up more interesting and has its charm, it's just that right now I still feel like this system deserves a try, it's a little soon to make judgement. But if we went back to also gaining some stats after leveling up, I believe it would be better if those were not very significant.

[MJ12]

Yes you read my mind, I would definitly whine "the game is too easy!" xD Well, I'm not really opposed to having some advancement beyond the mods, it does make leveling up more interesting and has its charm, it's just that right now I still feel like this system deserves a try, it's a little soon to make judgement. But if we went back to also gaining some stats after leveling up, I believe it would be better if those were not very significant.

It's not a little soon to make a judgement because there are basic, core flaws in the system. That being it is necessary to be in the RNG's good graces to succeed. In a very large playerbase, you will see extremely unlikely coincidences. Like say, someone getting survivability mods 16 times in a row. Or Joe Q. Lootradar, the unlucky schmuck who only gets Loot Radar mods. Joe Q. Lootradar wants to play this game too. As far as potential goes, it has plenty of potential but the flaws are so obvious, visible, and thrown in your face that it's really hard to say nice things about the system.

But define "not very significant", please. Because if they're 'not very significant' you end up with the exact same issue, that being "you need certain mods on your weapons and warframes period to get anything done, out of a very limited set of slots."

[Aggh]

It's not a little soon to make a judgement because there are basic, core flaws in the system. That being it is necessary to be in the RNG's good graces to succeed. In a very large playerbase, you will see extremely unlikely coincidences. Like say, someone getting survivability mods 16 times in a row. Or Joe Q. Lootradar, the unlucky schmuck who only gets Loot Radar mods. Joe Q. Lootradar wants to play this game too. As far as potential goes, it has plenty of potential but the flaws are so obvious, visible, and thrown in your face that it's really hard to say nice things about the system.

But define "not very significant", please. Because if they're 'not very significant' you end up with the exact same issue, that being "you need certain mods on your weapons and warframes period to get anything done, out of a very limited set of slots."

It is a little too soon. Increasing drop rates and decreasing fusion price is changing numbers. Adding earned passives would entail a major system rework/rebalancing. The former should be tried first since it's easier and potentially better.

It's been 8 days. Decision makers on this issue were busy at pax for a decent amount of that time. Calm down.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[WhiteSteel]

It is a little too soon. Increasing drop rates and decreasing fusion price is changing numbers. Adding earned passives would entail a major system rework/rebalancing. The former should be tried first since it's easier and potentially better.

It's been 8 days. Decision makers on this issue were busy at pax for a decent amount of that time. Calm down.

This.

[MJ12]

It is a little too soon. Increasing drop rates and decreasing fusion price is changing numbers. Adding earned passives would entail a major system rework/rebalancing. The former should be tried first since it's easier and potentially better.

It's been 8 days. Decision makers on this issue were busy at pax for a decent amount of that time. Calm down.

The former shouldn't be 'tried first', because that implies you're considering a stopgap fix that fixes zero of the core issues (your gameplay experience is entirely dependent on the RNG, certain mods are critical for fun gameplay, the reward for leveling up is nearly nonexistent, there is no consistent experience between friends because mod luck is similarly random, and most importantly for DE 'why would I buy an Affinity Booster when I don't get anything from the doubled affinity rate because it takes far longer to max out mods than it takes to go from 0->30') to be equivalent to some sort of actual, comprehensive fix to the core issue. Just like the stopgap fix of taking out the Nervos isn't really a fix to the core issue of stun/agency-removal mechanics having been overused to create the illusion of difficulty.

Yes, increasing drop rates would fix the issue of people not having some mods after hours of gameplay. It wouldn't fix the core issues with the update, it'll just create complacency with them. And when we're dealing with a game which has plenty of grinding for (X) in it, that grind needs to be as consistent and rewarding as possible while still maintaining an element of pleasant surprise. Pre-Update 7, mods were generally pleasant surprises. I kept grinding to levelup my stuff and occasionally I got something that was nice but not necessary for game completion (like a 99.9% multishot mod for rifles) which kept me going. Now there's none of that pleasant surprise from getting something nice that you didn't need or want because of how mods are implemented as the sole method of advancement, just frustration if I don't get something good. Twisting 'being happy when you get a new mod with good stats' into 'being angry if you get a new mod with stats you don't want' is what this current system does specifically due to its lack of levelup mechanics besides 'better mods', and that's terrible. I guess at least Loot Radar isn't showing up much anymore which is fortunate or else Warframe would be abandoned after an hour. But anyways, there's a good reason that pretty much every game with level-ups which isn't based on strict competitive balance (and those games are basically FPSes with a 'level' system tacked on that isn't actually the primary focus of the game) gives you distinct improvements in your avatar per level.

It's been eight days and people have figured out how bad this system of having zero level advancement was on the first day. "More time" and having gotten the mods I need hasn't actually changed this. If anything, it's given me more reason to consider the system extraordinarily flawed. Anyways, I haven't been going "WHY ISN'T THERE A PATCH FOR LEVELUPS" angrily or anything. I'm just saying that the idea that only eight days hasn't been enough time to see core flaws in the redesign is bunk.

Edited March 27, 2013 by MJ12

[Dwei-]

Huzzah for making a system to stop players from blazing through all the Solar Rail Point missions of the game.

All in all, I like the system but I do hate the drop percentages, so I'm one foot closer to your side OP.

However... all it really takes is changing the numbers.

One rotten apple makes the whole bunch seem bad.

[MJ12]

Huzzah for making a system to stop players from blazing through all the Solar Rail Point missions of the game.

All in all, I like the system but I do hate the drop percentages, so I'm one foot closer to your side OP.

However... all it really takes is changing the numbers.

One rotten apple makes the whole bunch seem bad.

No, changing the numbers would make the system tolerable. Maybe serviceable, on the high end. It still is very much an illusion of 'customization' when you practically need Vitality and Redirection to do anything and you practically need an Energy Max mod (which I still haven't found) to actually be able to reliably use your powers because you can, and do, get plenty of energy droughts due to energy orbs being a random drop. And if we're accepting that this customization is illusory because nobody's going to give up +300 shields and +300 health for +30% power range or whatever... we're accepting that this shouldn't be part of the 'mod' system and should be just given to you.

This isn't a 'mod system' at this point, it's a really bad levelup system pretending to be a good mod system. Some form of levelup mechanics would allow the system's actual potential as a modification system (i.e. having to make tough choices, plenty of room to customize your equipment, being able to make meaningful choices between things like survivability and power use and weapons damage) to be used instead of forcing it to do double-duty as a levelup system.

You ever heard of the phrase 'jack of all trades, master of none'? Right now people who like this mod system for being a mod system should remember that if it has to also do the duty of the levelup system, it can't be as good of a mod system as if it was just a mod system and leveling up was independent.

Edited March 27, 2013 by MJ12

[N0S4R2]

as far as being stuck in the merc system without health or shield mods , your wrong. that's all you are just wrong.

there is a luck element in finding the mod you want but so what, have a cup of concrete

[kaizoku222]

I agree with MJ12, the entire problem is that 100% of our potency comes from cards now, and if you want all 4 of your abilities, hp, shield, and power max, you have almost nothing left to "customize" with, same with weapons if you want any high elemental damage, multishot, or puncture. The removal of passives also entirely nerfed % based mods, which nearly all mods are now, crit chance is worthless now and subsequently crit damage is worthless on anyone that doesn't have a fixed duration invis. This also means that fragile warframes get less out of hp/armor/shield cards than the tankier frames, so instead of having a difference of 150-200 shield between tough frames and fragile frames at the high end, it will be a difference of 300+ of either hp or shield.

This was done with *zero* compensation to these variables, absolutely nothing was done to counterbalance these changes, these are all 100% flat nerfs across the board that hit really random things. So until DE actually explains why they felt that hp, shield, power max, crit chance, crit damage, penetration, and melee damage ALL needed a large nerf simultaneously, I'm just going to assume they threw these updates out without much forethought, and they need to be repeatedly told that this is what happened until they fix it or address it in some way.

[MJ12]

as far as being stuck in the merc system without health or shield mods , your wrong. that's all you are just wrong.

there is a luck element in finding the mod you want but so what, have a cup of concrete

Oh yeah, you can go to Venus and do okay (Saturn is out because a single Grineer heavy + Commander showing up and not having its AI bug out is basically instant death). If you cheese the AI or use cheap tactics like chain Iron Skin/Invis you might be able to go farther via the exploit of persistent invulnerability.

This is totally fun and legitimate. There's a little bit of hyperbole but so what? That doesn't change the fact that you're defending a broken system just because... I guess you like schadenfreude?

And yes, I am calling this new mod system broken. As a mod system, it works, but if you gave me a perfectly working house and claimed it was a car I'd call it a broken car. Similarly you're taking a perfectly working mod system and calling it a level-up system and that's terrible. Nothing benefits.

[Ronyn]

Huzzah for making a system to stop players from blazing through all the Solar Rail Point missions of the game.

Unless you gte lucky and get a bunch of strong mods...

then its extra easy.

What some folks dont seem to notice is that luck swings both ways.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Ronyn

[Mir.]

Ikr? Didn't disprove whinin's assertion that you have to have a shield mod to run phorid at all. Being able to get this level of survivability is incredibly easy by the time you've cleared the path to phorid btw.

You must be incredulously unbelieveably dumb.

I asked you to be PRODUCTIVE in posting more methods on helping others to get mods.

Yet you showed off by posting you soloing phorid.

Is there a possible way to report spammers here?

[Aggh]

You must be incredulously unbelieveably dumb.

I asked you to be PRODUCTIVE in posting more methods on helping others to get mods.

Yet you showed off by posting you soloing phorid.

Is there a possible way to report spammers here?

You said tha shield mods are absolutely necessary. I showed that they aren't. Yay for more ad hominem after being disproven. Hell, I got one shot by the spikes the first time I ran it. Shields are actually unimportant vs phorid, since even with base shields you can tank the scream and the spikes completely ignore your shields. Neveremind that glitching allows you to easily spam into him and he doesn't use his abilities as much.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Mir.]

You said tha shield mods are absolutely necessary. I showed that they aren't. Yay for more ad hominem after being disproven.

What that guy meant that it's impossible to farm for Nyx without shield mods. Hence shield mods is a limiting factor for progression in this aspect.

Go read and go figure, I'm pretty much done with an ignorant showing off brat like you.

When 1 person have issues with you, it may be his fault.

But when a truck load of people have issues with you, go and reflect about yourself.

[Aggh]

Go read and go figure, I'm pretty much done with an ignorant showing off brat like you.

When 1 person have issues with you, it may be his fault.

But when a truck load of people have issues with you, go and reflect about yourself.

You were agreeing with him. Don't try to cop out after you've been proven wrong.

[Mir.]

What that guy meant that it's impossible to farm for Nyx without shield mods. Hence shield mods is a limiting factor for progression in this aspect.

You were agreeing with him. Don't try to cop out after you've been proven wrong.

does this sound anything like I'm agreeing with him? I took the effort to recompose of what he said, laid it out in the MOST simple terms for your simple head to compute. Yet you are unappreciative.

And you have no listed any other ways to find mods. Keep the spamming up.

[Aggh]

does this sound anything like I'm agreeing with him? I took the effort to recompose of what he said, laid it out in the MOST simple terms for your simple head to compute. Yet you are unappreciative.

And you have no listed any other ways to find mods. Keep the spamming up.

https://forums.warfr...220#entry165853

Stop.Trying.To.Cop.Out.

The most effiecent ways to get mods are the same as they always were. It's simple enough that I don't know why you think they need to be explained. Infested defense missions will always be the best. Lots of mobs focusing on one central point of a map over and over means that you can kill lots of them in less time, which means more shots at mod drops. Why are you asking something that you already know the answer to? Stop spamming please.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Mir.]

https://forums.warfr...220#entry165853

Stop.Trying.To.Cop.Out.

The most effiecent ways to get mods are the same as they always were. It's simple enough that I don't know why you think they need to be explained. Infested defense missions will always be the best. Lots of mobs focusing on one central point of a map over and over means that you can kill lots of them in less time, which means more shots at mod drops. Why are you asking something that you already know the answer to? Stop spamming please.

Once again, read. I was re-explaining to you his point of phorid's limiting factor issue. Or do you love to twist words in such a sense that it goes in sync with your ego?

I'm not asking, read in between the lines, the hidden text of this thread title is ways to obtain mods.

Oh hey something finally constructive. But none the less getting called a spammer from a person who singlehandedly tossed a simple thread into 15 pages, I am merely humbled.

Once again allow me to reiterate. When one person have issues with you, It may be the other party's fault.

But if 2 or maybe more people finds the same issues with you, you might just want to evaluate your self-worth. (Such as spamming up to 15 pages)

[Aggh]

Once again, read. I was re-explaining to you his point of phorid's limiting factor issue. Or do you love to twist words in such a sense that it goes in sync with your ego?

I'm not asking, read in between the lines, the hidden text of this thread title is ways to obtain mods.

Oh hey something finally constructive. But none the less getting called a spammer from a person who singlehandedly tossed a simple thread into 15 pages, I am merely humbled.

Once again allow me to reiterate. When one person have issues with you, It may be the other party's fault.

But if 2 or maybe more people finds the same issues with you, you might just want to evaluate your self-worth. (Such as spamming up to 15 pages)

You were agreeing with him. I don't even know why you're bothering now. You wouldn't ask "Phorid is a limited factor, is it not,?" If you didn't think it was. Keep trying to cop out please.

There piles of people having issues with this because they're butt hurt. It happens in every game out there after major changes are made. Just because a lot of people are butt hurt doesn't mean they're right. There have also been plenty of people in this thread agreeing with me. But I guess you can't see it through all the butt hurt. I guess I should just cave in to the vocal minority who want a major system rework 9 days after we already had one. Because that makes sense. Especially when they have been provided with alternatives to shield mods and been shown that they are not absolutely necessary, but still keep hopping on the butt hurt train.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Aggh