Luck Is The Only Way To Progress In Update 7.

[Aggh]

I've prolly used even more for upgrading other mods. They drop all the time on m prime and the like. Shields are pretty rare, but health mods are pretty common.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Aggh

[DirkDeadeye]

I've prolly used even more for upgrading other mods. They drop all the time on m prime and the like. Shields are pretty rare, but health mods are pretty common.

See, I've heard about that on M-Prime, I spent a few hours there. Not one, and you're swimming in them.

[Ishmael]

I've prolly used even more for upgrading other mods. They drop all the time on m prime and the like. Shields are pretty rare, but health mods are pretty common.

And right there is the problem with the RNG system. You got them. That's awesome. Others didn't and still have not. If it takes you 1 hour and someone else 100, that's OK when the item (health and shields) are essentially critical components for later progression, especially solo?

That's a recipe for disaster with your player base. DE may as well just have an RNG in the login process that either allows you into the game immediately, or doesn't, because RNG, right?

[MJ12]

He was quoting a different post, not a pre edit. Nice try though.

Oh even better. So everyone who goes in this thread can see you insulting them for deigning to be angry about a bad game mechanic that exclusively rewards luck.

The game simply is not hard at all and adding a tiny bit of difficulty is actually a good thing. If the game is too easy people will get bored. That's why late update 6 barely anyone was playing. What's entertaining about being able to kill everything in a fraction of a second and have so much health and shields that nothing can kill you?

So where's this hypothetical difficulty that got added? Because enemies do the same damage and if you get your survivability mods you have about as many shields and health as before. There IS NO additional difficulty. That's the point. All you're doing is pretending there is so you can hold yourself up as better than people. The only "difficulty" that exists is the test of patience that the game has become until you get necessary mods.

Want ACTUAL difficulty? Ask for that. Preferably something optional that gives you somewhat more credits and better mod drops, because there are gamers who want to play a power fantasy where things die fast and you're immortal. Don't endorse bad game mechanics because they happen to look vaguely like they give you the result you want.

Nevermind that the survivability mods aren't really all that hard to get. Shields are pretty rare, but vitality drops all the time on mercury missions, along with a setinel and the guardian precept, you don't even really need a shield mod. And once you have that and a shield mod, you have to try to die practically.

"Aren't really all that hard to get"... From a sample size of what? One?

I spent 20 hours grinding to get a shield and health mod. In the old system that would have gotten me to Earth and Mars easy. This is bad game design. Progression in this game is unpredictable and arbitrary now, you can't go "okay, about five hours in you can move on, then ten hours after that".

Predictable progression is a good thing.

[iotimoline]

Why do people conflate luck with challenge?

[kaizoku222]

Actually the game in general got more difficult because all weapons got nerfed, as no weapon can get as potent as they were since passive upgrades are gone. So damage potential has been nerfed on every weapon, and some mods are less effective than they were. Also, you need a level 30 weapon to slot anything good since high tier elemental/damage mods cost 10-15 points, where as before they just cost 1 out of 4-8 slots.

[Mak_Gohae]

Dude, every time you claim "I can do Pluto with no survivabiluty mods" you just shoot the idea that you are anything even resembling a standard balance point in the foot.

These "bad players" like Aggh seems to keep referring to them as (thanks for catching his pre-edit post, BTW) are actually closer to the average skill level of the population. Why should we "noobs" have to suffer because you want to play Nethack or Dark Souls or Devil May Cry: Legendary Son of Sparda Dante Must Die Hell or Hell mode?

If you want the game to be masochistically hard ask for a Uber-Brutal difficulty mode where enemies have four times the damage output or whatever and you get double the credits and pre-leveled mods. Don't make other people suffer for your own self-aggrandizement.

If you are replying to my post this is exactly what i am saying.

The average player, but i am mostly referring to new ones, are not going to be able to accomplish those feats that other people with more experience, knowledge, and money can do.

The system is killer on them.

[Aggh]

Why do people conflate luck with challenge?

No one is. The game is a bit harder without shield and HP mods, but it's not even close to an issue to until later levels where you should have well modded weapons which can make up for lower shields and HP anyways.

Actually the game in general got more difficult because all weapons got nerfed, as no weapon can get as potent as they were since passive upgrades are gone. So damage potential has been nerfed on every weapon, and some mods are less effective than they were. Also, you need a level 30 weapon to slot anything good since high tier elemental/damage mods cost 10-15 points, where as before they just cost 1 out of 4-8 slots.

And? The only point at which not having those becomes a problem is at the levels where you should have level 30 stuff by the time you get to it anyways.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Aggh

[FanZeroEx]

No one is. The game is a bit harder without shield and HP mods, but it's not even close to an issue to later levels where you should have well modded weapons which can make up for lower shields and HP anyways.

And? The only point at which not having those becomes a problem is at the levels where you should have level 30 stuff by the time you get to it anyways.

So tell me now how do the new players judge they have level 30 stuff? They just magically now the RNG gods granted them the right stuff along the way right?

[Aggh]

Oh even better. So everyone who goes in this thread can see you insulting them for deigning to be angry about a bad game mechanic that exclusively rewards luck.

The only people that would see it as an insult are those that are actually bad :|

So where's this hypothetical difficulty that got added? Because enemies do the same damage and if you get your survivability mods you have about as many shields and health as before. There IS NO additional difficulty. That's the point. All you're doing is pretending there is so you can hold yourself up as better than people. The only "difficulty" that exists is the test of patience that the game has become until you get necessary mods.

Want ACTUAL difficulty? Ask for that. Preferably something optional that gives you somewhat more credits and better mod drops, because there are gamers who want to play a power fantasy where things die fast and you're immortal. Don't endorse bad game mechanics because they happen to look vaguely like they give you the result you want.

You have to choose between whether you want progress through the game with a harder difficulty, or spend a more time grinding for better gear for an easier time in later levels. It's not really all that uncommon in dungeon crawlers.

"Aren't really all that hard to get"... From a sample size of what? One?

I spent 20 hours grinding to get a shield and health mod. In the old system that would have gotten me to Earth and Mars easy. This is bad game design. Progression in this game is unpredictable and arbitrary now, you can't go "okay, about five hours in you can move on, then ten hours after that".

Predictable progression is a good thing.

Ikr, it's not like every single thread like these have a bunch of people saying they got HP mods within a handful of runs. Oh wai-

You could always just go to earth and mars anyways since shield and HP mods aren't really a must have there anyways. It's your choice to put a hold on your progression, not the game's.

So tell me now how do the new players judge they have level 30 stuff? They just magically now the RNG gods granted them the right stuff along the way right?

I dunno, maybe when the mobs are level 30+? Good mods for pistols drop all the time, you don't need much luck for that. The akbolto is one of the easiest, cheapest to mod weapons in the game and one of the best atm.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Aggh

[Aretak]

It's both luck and raw grind for credits. Health and shield bonuses should come from an inherant tech tree. Also this is only slightly related to a 'reset', if they'd handled the new system better a wipe wouldn't seem so painful.

[forerunner]

i had a pretty kickass braton until the update, i had a mag size for days an a decent rate of fire but now thats all gone

[FanZeroEx]

I dunno, maybe when the mobs are level 30+? Good mods for pistols drop all the time, you don't need much luck for that. The akbolto is one of the easiest, cheapest to mod weapons in the game and one of the best atm.

How does the new player know it? What if the player doesn't like pistols? Can he still progress? How do you know you don't need much luck for that? What sample size you used to to determine that it's not much luck? Are you so self absorbed and norrow minded that you think your own personal experience is enough to determine the probability of something? Your own experience is yours alone and you can't say it's ok because it's ok for you. What's not how statistics and probabilities work. Repetitive and time consuming activities are not challenge nor are they hard. Luck based drop is not challenge it's just luck. The game didn't became harder, it just became luck-based. I'm playing every evening after work since update 7 hit. I'm yet to see shield or hp mods. Many people have the same experience. It's not fun. If things won't change people will leave. Do you want people to leave? I though you're enjoying this game.

[Aggh]

How does the new player know it? What if the player doesn't like pistols? Can he still progress? How do you know you don't need much luck for that? What sample size you used to to determine that it's not much luck? Are you so self absorbed and norrow minded that you think your own personal experience is enough to determine the probability of something? Your own experience is yours alone and you can't say it's ok because it's ok for you. What's not how statistics and probabilities work. Repetitive and time consuming activities are not challenge nor are they hard. Luck based drop is not challenge it's just luck. The game didn't became harder, it just became luck-based. I'm playing every evening after work since update 7 hit. I'm yet to see shield or hp mods. Many people have the same experience. It's not fun. If things won't change people will leave. Do you want people to leave? I though you're enjoying this game.

The pistols are a blatant balance issue, but not really the problem that is the topic of this thread. They have the best mods atm so there's no avoiding using them atm until DE decides to fix mods for other weapons.

Every single thread on shield and HP mods have a lot of people saying they were able to at least get a vitality mod after some grinding on mecury raid, sabotage, or spy missions.

You automatically earn a common mod or a health restore which gives you a better shot at getting vitality or redirection because it's out of a smaller loot table than during the missions. You can speed run m prime in ~2 minutes so people that haven't gotten at least a vitality mod after hours of grinding mprime have probably missed the point of grinding that mission and wasted time kiling mobs. Killing every mob you see even when you're one shotting them all can double the time for each run.

And even if we ignore that, the simple fact is that you can progress without shield and hp mods.. I don't need a sample size for that, I've done it. That's the main problem with the OPs argument. He'd have a point if shield and HP mods were actually necessary to progress, they aren't though, thus luck is not the only thing keeping people from progressing.

Additionally, there are plenty of survivability alternatives to HP and shield mods. Armor mods are not nearly as hard to find. Same with shield recharge rate mods. The guardian precept on the setinel effectively gives you more shields.

People just think HP and shield mods are necessary because they relied on them so much in previous phases. We saw the same kind of *@##$ing when shield mods were nerfed in cbt.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Aggh

[ttv_Typical_Tilly]

I can't even finish reading this S#&$fest of dev fanboys. The OP is 100% correct and it is a MAJOR problem. End of story, case closed. Do not give me mulitple types of weapons, multliple types of backups, and melee weapons, then give me the choice of like 10 frames or whatever it is now all with varrying powers and tell me oh but you have to hide and hit enemies 1 at a time if you want to play because I might not give you mod drops. My level 30 ash struggles anything over saturn even with a team. F*** off with your defense of the devs on this system because I assure you that at least 85-90% of the community is against it and no matter what you say this game WILL die if this system remains. The card system all together is fine but the RNG to progress is not. You all can call people QQers and tell us all to quit who are whining but it is not a whine fest, it is a problem. If everyone upset by this walks away from this game it will die before its released.

[FanZeroEx]

The pistols are a blatant balance issue, but not really the problem that is the topic of this thread. They have the best mods atm so there's no avoiding using them atm until DE decides to fix mods for other weapons.

Every single thread on shield and HP mods have a lot of people saying they were able to at least get a vitality mod after some grinding on mecury raid, sabotage, or spy missions.

You automatically earn a common mod or a health restore which gives you a better shot at getting vitality or redirection because it's out of a smaller loot table than during the missions. You can speed run m prime in ~2 minutes so people that haven't gotten at least a vitality mod after hours of grinding mprime have probably missed the point of grinding that mission and wasted time kiling mobs. Killing every mob you see even when you're one shotting them all can double the time for each run.

And even if we ignore that, the simple fact is that you can progress without shield and hp mods.. I don't need a sample size for that, I've done it. That's the main problem with the OPs argument. He'd have a point if shield and HP mods were actually necessary to progress, they aren't though, thus luck is not the only thing keeping people from progressing.

Additionally, there are plenty of survivability alternatives to HP and shield mods. Armor mods are not nearly as hard to find. Same with shield recharge rate mods. The guardian precept on the setinel effectively gives you more shields.

People just think HP and shield mods are necessary because they relied on them so much in previous phases. We saw the same kind of *@##$ing when shield mods were nerfed in cbt.

While I agree with some of your points you seem to misunderstand one thing. This topic is not only about progression through missions, but also about progression of warframes, weapons in the context of leveling them up. Right now what part of the system is solely based on luck. Your playstyle is solely based on what mods you get. So if you want to be more on a tanky side you can't until you get some mods. Want to be a glass cannon with high damage? You can't until appropriate mods drop. Where is no customization whatsoever until much later when you have a good pool of mods. And what's the main point - customization. Players should feel they are in control of how they want to play, it should not be forced on them.

Edited March 23, 2013 by FanZeroEx

[Aggh]

While I agree with some of your points you seem to misunderstand one thing. This topic is not only about progression through missions, but also about progression of warframes, weapons in the context of leveling them up. Right now what part of the system is solely based on luck. Your playstyle is solely based on what mods you get. So if you want to be more on a tanky side you can't until you get some mods. Want to be a glass cannon with high damage? You can't until appropriate mods drop. Where is no customization whatsoever until much later when you have a good pool of mods. And what's the main point - customization. Players should feel they are in control of how they want to play, it should not be forced on them.

Pretty sure the OP wouldn't be *@##$ing just about HP and Shield mods if he thought this was an issue of customization progression.

By the time you've hit a high enough level on a frame to fully customize it, you've probably got a decent pool of mods. The problem right now is people already leveled up their frame in pre u7 so they are just grinding for mods and aren't seeing the actual progression system of the game.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Aggh

[ttv_Typical_Tilly]

Pretty sure the OP wouldn't be *@##$ing just about HP and Shield mods if he thought this was an issue of customization progression.

By the time you've hit a high enough level on a frame to fully customize it, you've probably got a decent pool of mods. The problem right now is people already leveled up their frame in pre u7 so they are just grinding for mods and aren't seeing the actual progression system of the game.

No your incorrect. He has stated multiple times as all of us that restarting isn't the problem. The problem was stated clearly that its RNG and luck based to get off starting planets.

[Aggh]

No your incorrect. He has stated multiple times as all of us that restarting isn't the problem. The problem was stated clearly that its RNG and luck based to get off starting planets.

Of course he would say that, it doesn't change the fact that he's starting with a level 30 frame. If you're playing the right missions, you can easily at least get a vitality mod, armor mod, and a sentinel by the time you've leveled a war frame to level 30. You don't need luck for that.

And to top it off, those aren't even really necessary to get off the starting planets, which is problematic for his argument since it hinges on HP and shield mods being necessary to progress.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Aggh

[FanZeroEx]

Pretty sure the OP wouldn't be *@##$ing just about HP and Shield mods if he thought this was an issue of customization progression.

Why not? In update 6 you could rush the nodes what give you hp and shield and it was your choice. Now were are robbed of this choice, now the game decides when you get what you want. If OP likes to play with increased hp and shield why would you stop him? It should be his choice in the end.

[Aggh]

Why not? In update 6 you could rush the nodes what give you hp and shield and it was your choice. Now were are robbed of this choice, now the game decides when you get what you want. If OP likes to play with increased hp and shield why would you stop him? It should be his choice in the end.

If the OP wants the game to be easier he can just grind for those mods just like you would grind for gear in any dungeon crawler. It's entirely up to him if he wants to do that since they aren't actually necessary to progress in the game. Again, he's not whining about customization, he's whining about being able to progress through the game, that's why he's complaing about not being able to leave starter planets. Otherwise he'd be *@##$ing about power max mods (which are just about as rare as shield mods) too.

Like I said before, people raised the same $#*(@ fit before when shield mods got nerfed from 10k+ shields down to 5-800ish shields. Everyone was going on and on about how their survivability was S#&$ without thousands of shields, but somehow they got used to it without any further changes.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Aggh

[Demonocolips]

only issue i have is infested and boss's

love the paris is my go to weapon now but rng for mod drop and mod drop usefullness is terrible.

[MJ12]

Additionally, there are plenty of survivability alternatives to HP and shield mods. Armor mods are not nearly as hard to find. Same with shield recharge rate mods. The guardian precept on the setinel effectively gives you more shields.

Armor is useless on literally half the Warframes and only marginally useful on all but two others. That's a 'survivability alternative' in the same sense a water pistol is a 'weapons alternative' to a fully-automatic nuclear missile launcher. 'Shield recharge rate' mods are basically useless because they don't actually make you survivable on higher level areas, because one burst will put you right into health, and the Guardian precept is bugged and requires you to have a Sentinel.

Which can die. This insistence that if you aren't "bad at the game" you can simply use whatever mods you get and win at everything forever is condescending claptrap that has no actual relation to reality. Maybe you can. All hail Aggh, Master Tenno. Who the hell cares? You don't speak for everyone. You clearly don't speak for the average player. Your goalpost shifting between "IT'S TOTALLY EASY TO FIND VITALITY/DEFLECTION MODS, SEE, A TINY SELF-SELECTED MINORITY OF THE PLAYERBASE HAS FOUND THEM" and "IT'S TOTALLY EASY TO BEAT THE GAME WITHOUT ANY" is aggravating and has no point except to insult others.

People just think HP and shield mods are necessary because they relied on them so much in previous phases. We saw the same kind of *@##$ing when shield mods were nerfed in cbt.

People just think HP and shield mods are necessary because they f***ing are. Hell, the shield mod nerf before at least let you keep 250 base shields and most people, besides masochists and people who solely play this game due to schadenfreude and their need to insult other players, were already extremely displeased with it. Then they actually rebalanced shield mods and the game was better for it. People were angry because they nerfed shield mods so bad that there was basically no point to ever using them since even level 30 shield mods were like... +30 shields.

[Foxbyte]

An easy solution would be to nerf the max health/shield mods down to 10-20% per level, and give frames a small shield/health gain with every level. There's a steady progression, and if you randomly find a good HP mod then all the power to you. It's just ridiculous that people have grinded for hours and hours and hours in 7 and haven't gotten a basic common mod that is the lynchpin of progress.

Or, hell. Give us a shield/health mod for beating Mercury, just for the first time, and then the other one for a later planet.

[iotimoline]

I'm honestly curious if there's a bug that Sentinel shield mods are dropping when Warframe shield mods are supposed to drop. Because I've gotten 5 Sentinel shield mods and 0 Warframe shield mods (and only a single Warframe health mod which I poured cores into to get it to +250% life).