True Necromancer - Nekros Theme Revamp

[Archwizard]

I was thinking of something else today that I'd do to Terrify.

 

Make Terrify an aura about Nekros that he has to re-cast every so often.  When enemies get near Nekros, they run in fear for 2 seconds not mod-able and cower for 5, mod-able.  That gets rid of the 'power in use' factor and makes him more of a caster frame with the ability to refrain from melee combat if needed.

 

It's a good idea, but it'd probably get a target limit every second a la World on Fire, to prevent you running through the map perpetually scaring off peoples' kills.

 

I think he could get along with the current skill, just without the CD and with a slow. It gives him more snap CC, so he doesn't need to supplement his defense with damage skills.

[Scar.Heart]

I'm alright with these suggestions.

Really diggin' Vitality Drain.

Would also like for Terrify to eliminate the enemy # limit.

 

 

You think of a ninja character, you think stealth. Ash has it.

-laughs uncontrollably-

Ahem...I apologize. That's another thread for another time.

Edited February 11, 2014 by MagnusFury

[Noble_Cactus]

Being able to control your minions by placing a waypoint or by having them simply follow you from place to place would be nice. It'd also make his Desecrate job more interesting, as the team janitor.

 

Unfortunately, he's on a bit of a slippery slope when it comes to Desecrate. He's so useful to a team for long survivals and farming that outright eliminating the loot portion of Desecrate would destroy the role people have come to identify him with. I like the original Drain Vitality from another thread a while back that has the current effect but also forces enemies to drop loot. Loot quality would increase the lower an enemy's health is. I really do like the idea of being able to heal your minions that way, but I was thinking a Corpse Explosion that spreads Viral would also work for Desecrate? Or maybe you could combine the two. I need to think about it more.

 

The idea of Soul Punch adding to a list of summons that everyone brings up is my favorite change so far. Summoning a zombie on kill wouldn't be bad either, but at endgame, how many (important, like Napalms or Shockwave MOAs) enemies are you going to kill with abilities alone without severely weakening them first? Perhaps have the 'soul' bounce from target to target, knocking back up to 3/4/5 whatever targets as dictated by Power Strength. The first enemy's soul would then return to you and be added to your pool.

 

Terrify should not only slow down enemies, but maybe reduce their damage and accuracy as well. After all, they're, well, terrified. And anyone who's ever been scared to death knows that you're not in your right state of mind when it happens.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[EnForest]

Nekros is one of the few frames in which every ability is useful. Leave it the hell alone.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[mooser6]

Nekros does have 4 useful abilities but they can use some tweaks. I don't like the OP's rework but some of the other ideas are good.

- I don't need a minion from every skill. Give soul punch AOE knockdown and it will be good.

- lots of good suggestions on terrify. It's funny as hell to see charging grineer turn and run like little *@##$es but they should seek nearest cover and stay put for x seconds while debuffed and not attacking.

- Desecrate should *always* re roll the drop table and maybe have a slightly higher chance to also spawn health. I actually like using this ability... it's fun to see all that loot pop up.

- SoTD is fine for creating cover and drawing aggro but give the minions some balls... they don't do any damage even at low levels. And please don't let them steal my health orbs! (Bad idea)

Edited February 11, 2014 by mooser6

[Thaumatos]

Nekros does have 4 useful abilities but they can use some tweaks. I don't like the OP's rework but some of the other ideas are good.

- I don't need a minion from every skill. Give soul punch AOE knockdown and it will be good.

- lots of good suggestions on terrify. It's funny as hell to see charging grineer turn and run like little *@##$es but they should seek nearest cover and stay put for x seconds while debuffed and not attacking.

- Desecrate should *always* re roll the drop table and maybe have a slightly higher chance to also spawn health. I actually like using this ability... it's fun to see all that loot pop up.

- SoTD is fine for creating cover and drawing aggro but give the minions some balls... they don't do any damage even at low levels. And please don't let them steal my health orbs! (Bad idea)

 

A minion on Soul Punch would be great for just entering a room with a large number of targets and giving a Loki-esque decoy for them to target while you set up more potent attacks.

 

Terrify needs to put them in a 'cower' state...kinda like Radial Blind makes them debilitated for the first few seconds.

 

People see Desecrate as a crutch for Nekros because they don't like his other abilities.  If they liked his other abilities, Desecrate would be icing on the cake.  I don't think this power is problematic in its current form with the exception of needing to always drop health globes.

 

Shadows of the Dead minions don't need to do damage.  They've got tons of utility.  Its a wall of monsters that body-block and add targets so you don't take any damage.  I would rather not see Nekros minions playing the level for me.  That would get really annoying really fast.  They most definitely need to look undead though.

[mooser6]

Seems like one thing everyone agrees on is Terrify. I think fixing just this, I mean the whole "running away to infinity" thing, would already make Nekros more popular right away. (well, also the "power in use" issue :/)

Edited February 11, 2014 by mooser6

[Ganpot]

The videogame necromancer archetype consists of three principles:

1) Debuffing enemies and sapping their willingness to fight back

2) Reviving fallen enemies as temporary, disposable servants to overwhelm the foes that remain

3) Support skills to amplify his minions' survival and maximize their output (feeding back into 1)

 

Wouldn't category #1 be more specific to warlocks, not necromancers?  (Granted, source material varies wildly.) 

 

Anyway, I would love for Nekros to be a legitimate minion master.  Here are my personal preferences for his skills:

 

1. Dominate Soul - basically soul punch, but instead of spawning a second projectile after the initial target is hit, it knocks all enemies within ~5 meters of the target away from the target (still inflicts damage).  If the target dies within 30 seconds, it is summoned as a zombie minion (as others have stated).  Up to 3 minions can be alive at once. 

 

2. Ultimate Sacrifice - drains 30% of Nekros' maximum health, and gives it to his minions (with a multiplier of 2x at max rank).  Nekros' damage is reduced by 30% for 15 seconds, but his minions gain 30% increased damage and a 30% reduction to incoming damage.  This skill can be re-used while still in effect (to provide further healing), and enemies will not target Nekros as long as this skill is in effect and he is within 15 meters of one of his minions (they will target the minions instead).  If Nekros does not have any living minions when he casts the ability, the effects are given to his teammates instead (however, the bonuses are cut in half).  [This follows the Warframe design philosophy that all abilities must be able to stand alone.]

 

3. Corpse Explosion - similar to Desecrate, but all corpses in the area deal 200 viral (or possibly gas) damage to all enemies around them.  Furthermore, this skill is used at range by targeting a corpse (instead of radiating from Nekros himself), enemies are guaranteed to drop 2 health orbs apiece, and cannot drop any other loot (I would argue that the air canisters in survival are an exploit, and resource grinding is a shameful way to make a warframe useful).  [i would also like to propose this skill's unofficial name be Death Pinata.]

 

4. Twisted Chimera (alternate names: Midnight Hour, Soul Harvest) - for 25 seconds, every kill Nekros makes increases his damage and maximum health by 2%.  Nekros also regenerates 3% of his maximum health per second.  All living minions are absorbed by Nekros at the start of this ability, and each consumed minion adds to the base effects of this ability (for a maximum of +8% damage per kill, +8% max health, and 12% health regen per second). 

 

 

These would be (more or less) loyal to the necromancer archetype, give Nekros a solid end-game role as a support character, and provide a large amount of synergy between skills.  Nekros' main weakness would be energy generation, since he'll need to use at least 175 energy to get the most out of his ultimate. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Nekros does have 4 useful abilities but they can use some tweaks. I don't like the OP's rework but some of the other ideas are good.

- I don't need a minion from every skill. Give soul punch AOE knockdown and it will be good.

- lots of good suggestions on terrify. It's funny as hell to see charging grineer turn and run like little *@##$es but they should seek nearest cover and stay put for x seconds while debuffed and not attacking.

- Desecrate should *always* re roll the drop table and maybe have a slightly higher chance to also spawn health. I actually like using this ability... it's fun to see all that loot pop up.

- SoTD is fine for creating cover and drawing aggro but give the minions some balls... they don't do any damage even at low levels. And please don't let them steal my health orbs! (Bad idea)

 

 

I'm sure it'd be possible for the minions to pick up the orbs without actually using them up, much like other players can pick up orbs and not 'steal' them from you. Unless that's a client-host issue?

 

Ganpot's Corpse Explosion idea sounds good to me. Because Corpse Explosion is really, really fun. Two issues, though:

 

1. Would multiple explosions in a small room filled with bodies cause severe framerate drops?

2. Would it make Nekros too good at locking down hallways by debuffing them, further cementing his role as a team janitor?

 

Having it still drop loot and more health (though it already does that well) would synergize with minions being able to pick up health. I still like the idea of having a horde of minions follow you around, though Soul Harvest is a tempting idea.

[Archwizard]

Wouldn't category #1 be more specific to warlocks, not necromancers?  (Granted, source material varies wildly.) 

 

There's a bit of overlap as, archetypally, the two are nearly interchangeable; they're each sort of the designated black mage of the games that include one or the other. Warlocks use curses while necromancers use diseases or haunting spirits- while they're different in name, they're rather similar in effectiveness.

 

The major difference between the two, in terms of gameplay philosophies, is that the necromancer's effectiveness can sometimes be scaled with his enemies while the warlock's tends to scale exclusively with himself (or more accurately, his demons).

[Archwizard]

Terrify should not only slow down enemies, but maybe reduce their damage and accuracy as well. After all, they're, well, terrified. And anyone who's ever been scared to death knows that you're not in your right state of mind when it happens.

 

They're completely locked down/passive when Terrified though. The addition of the slow was more to keep them from running out of the room.

 

Shadows of the Dead minions don't need to do damage. I would rather not see Nekros minions playing the level for me.  That would get really annoying really fast.  

 

A very fair critique. As it stands though, what you're describing them being used for right now is a more expensive (and frankly, worse) version of Chaos; the fact that minions aren't used for damage is a wasted opportunity, since there are only a handful of scaling abilities in the game and this is (technically) one of them. At the very least, Nekros should have the ability to direct his minions and make the legion focus-attack enemies, which would create a world of difference between Chaos and what it currently is.

[Ganpot]

Ganpot's Corpse Explosion idea sounds good to me. Because Corpse Explosion is really, really fun. Two issues, though:

 

1. Would multiple explosions in a small room filled with bodies cause severe framerate drops?

2. Would it make Nekros too good at locking down hallways by debuffing them, further cementing his role as a team janitor?

 

1. It's highly unlikely, since corpses don't stick around very long (you're rarely going to get more than 6 or so corpses), and other skills which deal damage to lots of enemies at once (M Prime, Antimatter Drop, Venom, Vortex) don't typically cause massive frame drops unless things get absurd.  Of course, that's just a guess, and results will probably vary with hardware power and internet speed. 

 

2. Perhaps during low level survivals.  However, due to the limited scaling of offensive abilities in general, Desecrate's damage will inevitably become less useful as time goes on, and its main purpose will be to provide health orbs for the team.  What should happen (in theory) is that Nekros' role in the team will be dependent on the composition of his team.  If there's a Trinity (or possibly Oberon) in the group, Nekros won't need to use his health-restoring abilities very often, and can instead focus on either gathering and maintaining a group of good minions, or utilizing his ultimate to contribute more DPS. 

[Thaumatos]

A very fair critique. As it stands though, what you're describing them being used for right now is a more expensive (and frankly, worse) version of Chaos; the fact that minions aren't used for damage is a wasted opportunity, since there are only a handful of scaling abilities in the game and this is (technically) one of them. At the very least, Nekros should have the ability to direct his minions and make the legion focus-attack enemies, which would create a world of difference between Chaos and what it currently is.

 

How about using the Desecrate skill to make up for the lack of pure utility that Chaos grants?

 

Desecrate - Destroys enemy corpses and summons in the area.  Enemy corpses grant (%chance) additional loot while summons explode dealing x/y/z corrosive damage with in a/b/c radius.

 

Automatically sets up a choice of control/damage/loot for the player.  Do you want more damage from explosions, more control from minions, or more loot from enemy corpses?

Edited February 12, 2014 by Thaumatos

[Noble_Cactus]

1. It's highly unlikely, since corpses don't stick around very long (you're rarely going to get more than 6 or so corpses), and other skills which deal damage to lots of enemies at once (M Prime, Antimatter Drop, Venom, Vortex) don't typically cause massive frame drops unless things get absurd.  Of course, that's just a guess, and results will probably vary with hardware power and internet speed. 

 

2. Perhaps during low level survivals.  However, due to the limited scaling of offensive abilities in general, Desecrate's damage will inevitably become less useful as time goes on, and its main purpose will be to provide health orbs for the team.  What should happen (in theory) is that Nekros' role in the team will be dependent on the composition of his team.  If there's a Trinity (or possibly Oberon) in the group, Nekros won't need to use his health-restoring abilities very often, and can instead focus on either gathering and maintaining a group of good minions, or utilizing his ultimate to contribute more DPS. 

 

Oh, I was actually referring to its Viral damage and how he could keep casting Desecrate near a hallway of corpses to keep debuffing enemies with Viral. But that's highly situational and like you mentioned, there aren't likely going to be tons of corpses lying around anyway.

[Archwizard]

I would not be so far against Desecrate as to be unwilling to put up with a Life Drain that compelled enemies to drop loot based on their health or whatever.

But an ability that relies entirely on RNG with no other effect, and corpses as a resource? Not in this game.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Archwizard

[Thaumatos]

I would not be so far against Desecrate as to be unwilling to put up with a Life Drain that compelled enemies to drop loot based on their health or whatever.

But an ability that relies entirely on RNG with no other effect, and corpses as a resource? Not in this game.

 

In that respect, yes.  Desecrate has to at least definitely do something.  That's why I suggested it to be used on your minions as an offensive ability.

[Archwizard]

In that respect, yes.  Desecrate has to at least definitely do something.  That's why I suggested it to be used on your minions as an offensive ability.

 

Eh. Maybe? But that'd ramp up its effective cost (as an attack) way too much, going anywhere from 75 to 150 energy.

I think it'd do better as a standalone ability, as part of a kit that works together effectively.

[Kynian]

Sorry for taking so long to answer. I didn't like the whole "hurling forward and drinking the vitality of enemies" thing, seems out of place, considering the scene it'd be done in (a futuristic space ninja game and veary heavy on action).

Instead, i'd like to see something like Corpse Bomb. Still using the bodies of the dead, but this time as a heavy nuke. Enemies hit by it could heal nekros by a % of the damage dealt. Just a thought.

Edit: <br> </br> bug with lines.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kynian

[Archwizard]

Sorry for taking so long to answer. I didn't like the whole "hurling forward and drinking the vitality of enemies" thing, seems out of place, considering the scene it'd be done in (a futuristic space ninja game and veary heavy on action).

 

He wouldn't be "hurling forward"... he'd be going full-Dementor on them.

Fitting, given two out of three helmets.

 

I don't really see what part of it's out of place, since he already summons the dead, and Trinity already has similar skills in terms of the "vampiric" theme... on top of various idiosyncrasies like Frost making semipermeable ice barriers, Volt making shields of electricity, etc. etc.

[Kynian]

Ah, i see what you meant when you said dementor-style.

The area would be kind of small though, wouldnt it? It could have something like "+50% drain on cowering targets". Meaning targets affected by terrify.

[Archwizard]

Ah, i see what you meant when you said dementor-style.

The area would be kind of small though, wouldnt it? It could have something like "+50% drain on cowering targets". Meaning targets affected by terrify.

 

The idea is that it would heal allies within range based on the accumulated damage of the effect; even when damage falls off at higher levels, hitting several enemies with the cone will allow it to heal the party for hundreds (not to mention being a form of healing that synergizes with the rest of the party's damage-boosting effects), and has the Viral damage chance to reduce their maximum HP.

 

Yes, it serves as a form of AoE to contrast the first skill's powerful single-target nature, but its primary function remains as one of Nekros' survival tools (just not... you know... Survival-related).

Edited February 14, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

Necrosis: Injects the target with a zombifying virus, periodically staggering them (a la Energy Vampire) and dealing Viral damage. If the (non-Boss) target dies by any means while the debuff is active, they are instantly revived as a zombified minion. Ability is on cooldown while a living target is affected by the virus. 

 

Drain Vitality: Nekros hunches forward and inhales the life force of his enemies, dealing Viral damage in a cone in front of himself. A radial pulse is then released from Nekros akin to an Ancient Healer, healing nearby allies and minions based on the total damage dealt (against all affected targets). Cone and pulse affected by Power Range, damage affected by Power Strength.

 

I dunno about this. Doesn't Saryn's 1 already cross Viral off the list?

[Charismo]

I dunno about this. Doesn't Saryn's 1 already cross Viral off the list?

 

Elemental effects don't have to be exclusive to a particular frame. Tesla's do electrical damage, despite the existence of Volt.

 

Right now Soul Punch does magnet damage. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that choice was.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Charismo

[Archwizard]

I dunno about this. Doesn't Saryn's 1 already cross Viral off the list?

Elemental effects don't have to be exclusive to a particular frame. Tesla's do electrical damage, despite the existence of Volt.

 

Right now Soul Punch does magnet damage. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that choice was.

 

Besides, Viral was practically made for Nekros. Zombie viruses? Increased effect against the living and reduced against the undead (Infested) and lifeless (Corpus robots)? Saps the target's life force to reduce their maximum health?

 

It's probably way more thematic for him than for... Venom.

[Elydir]

Besides, Viral was practically made for Nekros. Zombie viruses? Increased effect against the living and reduced against the undead (Infested) and lifeless (Corpus robots)? Saps the target's life force to reduce their maximum health?

 

It's probably way more thematic for him than for... Venom.

 

I suppose viral basically is the opposite of radiation, which would make Nekros more an opposite to Oberon.