True Necromancer - Nekros Theme Revamp

[Archwizard]

There has been a suggestion creeping around the forums for a while that perhaps minions summoned by Shadows could get a small level boost or damage buff, but I feel 1) that'd be way too much for one skill to do and 2) having a concentrated fire toggle- literally a dozen guys capable of ripping a Tenno to shreds in seconds focusing on one enemy- could make up for the lack of individual firepower, provided that the AI was patched up a little to prevent them from pausing to hide behind cover or some other pointless shenanigans.

[Elydir]

Different types of armor makes 'sense' from a lore standpoint because you could think that the Grineer troops who hold higher ranks are given more durable armor (though why Heavy Gunners wouldn't have it, then, doesn't make sense). The 4 different types of flesh thing is utterly stupid, though. Same with how Cloned Flesh interacts with Grineer armor, just more layers obfuscating exactly how armor works.

 

They should just make armor types overlap like they do for Tenno. Make Corpus modifiers apply to Rollers, all Ancients under one armor type, make maybe two Flesh types max.

 

But that's probably offtopic.

[Archwizard]

1. Dominate Soul - basically soul punch, but instead of spawning a second projectile after the initial target is hit, it knocks all enemies within ~5 meters of the target away from the target (still inflicts damage).  If the target dies within 30 seconds, it is summoned as a zombie minion (as others have stated).  Up to 3 minions can be alive at once. 

 

2. Ultimate Sacrifice - drains 30% of Nekros' maximum health, and gives it to his minions (with a multiplier of 2x at max rank).  Nekros' damage is reduced by 30% for 15 seconds, but his minions gain 30% increased damage and a 30% reduction to incoming damage.  This skill can be re-used while still in effect (to provide further healing), and enemies will not target Nekros as long as this skill is in effect and he is within 15 meters of one of his minions (they will target the minions instead).  If Nekros does not have any living minions when he casts the ability, the effects are given to his teammates instead (however, the bonuses are cut in half).  [This follows the Warframe design philosophy that all abilities must be able to stand alone.]

 

3. Corpse Explosion - similar to Desecrate, but all corpses in the area deal 200 viral (or possibly gas) damage to all enemies around them.  Furthermore, this skill is used at range by targeting a corpse (instead of radiating from Nekros himself), enemies are guaranteed to drop 2 health orbs apiece, and cannot drop any other loot (I would argue that the air canisters in survival are an exploit, and resource grinding is a shameful way to make a warframe useful).  [i would also like to propose this skill's unofficial name be Death Pinata.]

 

4. Twisted Chimera (alternate names: Midnight Hour, Soul Harvest) - for 25 seconds, every kill Nekros makes increases his damage and maximum health by 2%.  Nekros also regenerates 3% of his maximum health per second.  All living minions are absorbed by Nekros at the start of this ability, and each consumed minion adds to the base effects of this ability (for a maximum of +8% damage per kill, +8% max health, and 12% health regen per second). 

 

Very interesting skillset, but I do have... one note about it.

 

Ultimate Sacrifice and Twisted Chimera require minions to be out. It's not a bad thing to bank on minions being available at all times as a minion-master, of course, but it does up the effective costs of these abilities and guarantees you can never use them as standalone skills or build without at least his first skill.

Just look at a frame like Loki: Each of his skills is standalone- increasing build diversity- but can be interwoven any way you like.

 

I mean, I'd still take what you have over the current Nekros, but it doesn't quite fit the general way frames are designed.

[Elydir]

even incredibly useful in Survivals

 

How has DE not stepped in about this yet? They wreck Snow Globe being too good at Defenses but they don't bother to check Desecrate?

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

Awesome ideas, all of them, even though realistically speaking i don't think they'd ever change a warframe that much, so i'll propose a few things that i proposed into my thread as well, with some tweaks based on people feedback and on your thread.

 

Souls Punch :  I'm all for a zombifying skill in here, just like you proposed.

 

Terrify : Let it affect every enemy in the skill radius, much like world on fire,  enemies muscles shiver out of fear slowing their movements and leaving them defenseless.Power strenght only affects amount of armor reduced (from the new base of 35% reduction).This would eliminate the recasting problem, since it would always affect enemies in range, amor debuff would actually be meaningful compared to the likes of rhino, nova, volt, etc who can buff their attakcs while having a whole arsenal of useful skills as well, balance, nekros begs for it.

 

Desecrate: Perhaps the most controvesial filed, he's a necromancer, not a grave robber, I would like to get rid of it as well, and then later on get a warframe based on that.But I don't think it would happen, so I will just leave this untouched.

 

Shadow of the Dead: Like I said in the other thread, people saying this skill is fine are crazy, simple as that, sure it fits the theme of a necromancer, so did u11 valkyr's hysteria.The whole point here is that it is utter crap.There's no reason at  all to use this.This is a preemptive skill, you don't use it to get kills, you don't use it to defend yourself, since between cast animation and enemy ai reaising they have to switch aggro there's some good 8 seconds in which you are vulnerable with shi**y health and armor.You either use because it's cool (i'm guilty, having 15 minions is awesome) or to possibly prevent the next wave of enemies in survival to go full on your team, which even then is not guaranteed, you never know how that stupid ai will react.

I had previously suggested removing duration factor from this and nothing else, but then realized how it would create more problems than solve in its current state.I like his idea of having the shadows lose health overtime.But i think that would be exploitable by having ancient healers/corrupted ancients wouldn't it?

Well if not, the idea is great and here's what i suggest : Increased health, damage and armor values for your shadows (just called stats in the ingame description) at 30/35/40/50%, affected by power strenght, for that way you can rely on them and just as importantly : allow their kills to count towards the soul pool.

[Noble_Cactus]

I recall reading that Shadows also currently draws enemies from the map's spawn pool as well? At least, that's what I've heard from tohers with no proof to back it up. If so, that's problematic to farming.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Archwizard]

I recall reading that Shadows also currently draws enemies from the map's spawn pool as well? At least, that's what I've heard from tohers with no proof to back it up. If so, that's problematic to farming.

 

If true, sounds like a bad bug.

 

Otherwise, that could cause some problems for a swarm master.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Archwizard

[Gault_Siebers]

Which you wouldn't need to worry about if Terrify didn't have a cooldown/make enemies untargettable.

No, I just really like how Nekros' Soul Punch can knock mobs around like bowling pins; I'm hoping that it gets altered into something more in line with the Necromancer theme instead of just being scrapped. Scaring mobs away just isn't the same.

[Archwizard]

No, I just really like how Nekros' Soul Punch can knock mobs around like bowling pins; I'm hoping that it gets altered into something more in line with the Necromancer theme instead of just being scrapped. Scaring mobs away just isn't the same.

 

Yeah, but the bowling pin thing is basically just a gimmick.

 

Besides, bowling pins usually get toppled in groups.

[(PSN)Nerothebonelord]

iv been playing nekros for a little while now....

 

his powers are usefull but in all leave him outclassed by the other warframes in pure power...

 

soul punch is good but considering its his only attack power other than summoning minions its a little weak and could be so much more.

 

terrify is very useful and has saved me a few times but with understanding that this is his only debuf ability its a little weak compared to other warframes abilities.

 

desecrate is very interesting and I really don't have a say here. its got both pros and cons so this one I am going to leave alone

 

souls of the dead is by far very fun and I love using it. I do have some minor issues with it but those could be easily fixed.

1. the minions don't last long

2. there damage output seems weaker to me than when they were the enemy

3. they don't follow their summoner or protect his allies much.

maybe instead of summoing the fallen have premade minions to summon maybe less summoned but a little stronger and smarter

[Charismo]

souls of the dead is by far very fun and I love using it. I do have some minor issues with it but those could be easily fixed.

1. the minions don't last long

2. there damage output seems weaker to me than when they were the enemy

3. they don't follow their summoner or protect his allies much.

maybe instead of summoing the fallen have premade minions to summon maybe less summoned but a little stronger and smarter

 

One thing to consider about their damage output:

 

When we're having to deal with enemies, we could be dealing with 20+ enemies who are firing on us at the same time. Individually enemies are relatively weak as long as you keep moving, but with number their damage quickly adds up.

 

Now consider the case with shadows. They're identical to their living counterparts, and do the same amount and type of damage. But unlike their living counter parts, shadows have to contend with all of the enemies within their range. So instead of only having to focus their fire on 1-4 targets, they're trying to fight the same 20+ targets we have to deal with.

 

Some people have suggested that we be able to direct their fire, including myself. This could become a bit too tedious. I think what could work is if that one shadow has a target, then the others nearby will have a predisposition to target the same mob. This would buff their collective effectiveness, without having to have a straight up damage buff over their living counterparts.

[Archwizard]

Some people have suggested that we be able to direct their fire, including myself. This could become a bit too tedious. I think what could work is if that one shadow has a target, then the others nearby will have a predisposition to target the same mob. This would buff their collective effectiveness, without having to have a straight up damage buff over their living counterparts.

It would only be tedious if you were dictating every kill they were making before they made it. 

 

While I agree that increasing the likelihood they'll learn to focus on their own would be equally helpful for general encounters, there's also the number of players who suggest that Nekros could use more interactivity and control over his minions - rather than a glorified pocket Chaos.

[Elydir]

soul punch is good but considering its his only attack power other than summoning minions its a little weak and could be so much more.

 

terrify is very useful and has saved me a few times but with understanding that this is his only debuf ability its a little weak compared to other warframes abilities.

 

I think the worst part about Soul Punch being his only damaging power is that it's so bland. You hit a target really hard and stun them. Theres a lot of skills that can hit enemies hard and stun them, but they usually have AoE too or a debuff.

 

Terrify is just weak because it costs 75 energy but is worse than any other CC of that cost other than maybe Bullet Attractor.

[BuHat0S_D]

The only skill that i would like to change is Shadows Of The Dead.
Would do something like this:

but in addition of refilling Necros's HP (if he received damage of course), killed enemies by 4-th skill wiill immediately resurrected in the form of Shadows Of The Dead.

 

[Charismo]

 

The only skill that i would like to change is Shadows Of The Dead.

Would do something like this:

but in addition of refilling Necros's HP (if he received damage of course), killed enemies by 4-th skill wiill immediately resurrected in the form of Shadows Of The Dead.

 

 

 

So add a nuke to it, and a require it to kill with it's own damage to work, effectively capping it from high level play, which is one of it's saving graces? I'd rather not see that.

[mooser6]

After revisting the thread to check all the replies, I still don't really like any of the suggestions in the OP. Proposed changes are too drastic.

 

Soul Punch - could probably use some kind of tweak, but honestly a lot of first abilities are not very amazing, so I don't feel like it *needs* to have something done, but I wouldn't complain if it got a small enhancement. Maybe the target explodes knocking down others in a small~mid sized AOE.

 

Terrify - Again, lots of good suggestions here that can improve this ability. The main problems with it are (A) limited number of enemies affected (B) they run far, far away... then return later (C.) inability to recast while active. Give it a range, remove the limit on number affected, and have them seek cover and stay put... or cower in fear, or just run around in circles.... anything but run to the far corners of the map!

 

Desecrate - I'd be fine if this was left alone. If any change was to be made maybe something more in the crowd control department such as exploding corpses that proc knockdown in a small AOE around each corpse. Anyway this is a unique ability and a useful one and shouldn't be done away with. It also fits Nekros theme very well of manipulating the living and dead.

 

SoTD - I'm fine with it the way it is, but the shadows are basically glorified bullet sponges. I want them to do some damage, as you'd expect them to. It's probably just a matter of fixing the AI. To whoever said "I don't want them playing the level for me"... look at the way they behave, do you really think they're going to run the level for you?? The proposal of them being able to collect health orbs... not sure about that one. If they don't consume orbs when collecting them, then maybe... but how would a health orb actually heal a nano-bot-reconstructed-thing? I realize that reality doesn't really mean much in a game, but it doesn't fit the theme/mechanic of how the reanimated dead came to be. I do think the suggestion of being able to resummon more dead to replace fallen ones (at a reduced cost) is interesting. Might make SoTD a little OP (especially if the AI is fixed) by essentially granting a full time army as long as you have energy... and of course with Desecrate that could be do-able. It would be fun to test though and see how it plays out.

 

 

I see Nekros as a scrappy survivor. His abilities lean in that direction with both crowd control and Desecrate for health/energy/ammo. He sort of "just gets by" and it takes some skill to play him successfully. That's both good and bad, but I'd hate to see him get a complete overhaul.

Edited March 5, 2014 by mooser6

[Maingo7]

Personally I think minor tweaks to Soul punch, Terrify and SotD would go a long way but Desecrate needs to be changed because it is overcentralizing Nekros, basically making him a dedicated vending machine.
It's removing any semblance of a necromantic theme from him when everyone pretty much ignores the other 3 skills because desecrate is just TOO USEFUL.

[Archwizard]

Terrify - Again, lots of good suggestions here that can improve this ability. The main problems with it are (A) limited number of enemies affected (B) they run far, far away... then return later (C.) inability to recast while active. Give it a range, remove the limit on number affected, and have them seek cover and stay put... or cower in fear, or just run around in circles.... anything but run to the far corners of the map!

 

Well the thing is, it wouldn't really be a fear spell without them running away. The problem is that they'll often make a b-line for the door, which makes it hard to cast again.

 

I don't really see the limited number of enemies as a problem, since I think the limitations double-feature was part keeping it in line with Chaos and Bastille, and part anti-trolling mechanism; if I had to choose one to keep, I'd rather the quantity limit (and a slow) over the cooldown, explicitly due to them running away.

 

Desecrate - I'd be fine if this was left alone. If any change was to be made maybe something more in the crowd control department such as exploding corpses that proc knockdown in a small AOE around each corpse. Anyway this is a unique ability and a useful one and shouldn't be done away with. It also fits Nekros theme very well of manipulating the living and dead.

 

Except that it's not a manipulation skill- just a looting skill. A necromancer shouldn't be a scavenger, he should pervert the dichotomy of life and death.

I agree that it's a fine skill and could be fine in the game... but I disagree that it should be Nekros'. Sentinel ability or generic skill, but not a necromancer's.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

 

The only skill that i would like to change is Shadows Of The Dead.

Would do something like this:

but in addition of refilling Necros's HP (if he received damage of course), killed enemies by 4-th skill wiill immediately resurrected in the form of Shadows Of The Dead.

 

 

Some kind of lifeforce drain would fit with Nekros' theme, but it shouldn't be what's needed to summon minions if it has to kill. Maybe this could be a combination of Drain Vitality and Desecrate?

 

Nekros sends out nanomachines that quickly drain the life force of nearby enemies, returning it to him, his teammates, and his minions as health. Health is drained by a percentage (maybe?), which can be boosted with power strength modifiers. Enemies affected by the life drain have a chance to prematurely drop items upon the move's conclusion; they still roll for drops upon dying. Enemies killed by the health drain provide Nekros and his minions with a short buff to damage that stacks to a cap.

 

The last bit is vulnerable to abuse, but I wanted to add something that would fit his Necromancer theme.

[MEsoJD]

The only skill I have a problem with is shadows. It's useful as a distraction device and nothing more. For some reason the shadows seem less powerful and even less intelligent than the enemy ai. Given how weak Nekros is, I really think they should revamp this skill. Maybe you can have a soul meter and instead of enemies, have special minions... Idk.

Edited March 7, 2014 by MEsoJD

[MalusCalibur]

I couldn't agree more with the OP - Nekros has always felt underwhelming and poorly designed, and these proposed changes bring him far more into line with what was expected from him. Desecrate in particular is a loathsome ability that should never have been added in the first place, let alone forced upon us despite massive outcry against it twice.
 

If I'm honest, though, I'm just glad to have found another person who doesn't like the name Soul Punch. It's gimmicky, not remotely amusing, and entirely unfitting. It needs to go.

 

All in all, a well thought out and intelligently designed skillset for him from you, Archwizard...which means it hasn't got a hope in hell of making it into the game.

 

Edited March 7, 2014 by MalusCalibur

[Archwizard]

If I'm honest, though, I'm just glad to have found another person who doesn't like the name Soul Punch. It's gimmicky, not remotely amusing, and entirely unfitting. It needs to go.

 

Honestly, I don't care about the name Soul Punch; the devs can give it whatever name they want, however gimmicky... as long as it works.

 

I can imagine Soul Punch is called Telekinetic Blast or Haunt or Reaping or whathaveyou. I can't imagine it's effective.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Desecrate in particular is a loathsome ability that should never have been added in the first place, let alone forced upon us despite massive outcry against it twice.

 

True, but I'm certain it was built with the intention of being popular in Survivals.

 

Which is incredibly asinine, given their ongoing back-and-forth on devoting any class to one mission type.

 

Point being, they were probably going to introduce Desecrate at some point- hence going over all of our heads to get it in. The real problem is who they gave it to.

[Elydir]

The real problem is who they gave it to.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of a more appropriate frame to have it though. Although I guess it doesnt need to be a warframe ability at all.

[Archwizard]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a more appropriate frame to have it though. Although I guess it doesnt need to be a warframe ability at all.

 

Like I said, it could be a sentinel skill (since all Sentinels should have behavior mods to pick up loot, destroy crates, destroy Corpus cameras/Grineer sensors, etc), or maybe even one of the upcoming generic mods for those people who enjoy looting (we've already got Thief's Wit and Master Thief, so clearly DE believes there's a market).