True Necromancer - Nekros Theme Revamp

[Archwizard]

Realized that there could stand to be more distinction between Shadows of the Dead and Necrosis' effects. Shadows of the Dead should remain a snap boost for Nekros' slowly-growing army, but the main course of it should not be from his ultimate.

[Zeful]

I'm surprised no one's brought up the basic logical problem of an effective minion master: You cannot effectively balance it.

 

There are reasons necromancers in fiction tend to be tragic characters that are incapable as soldiers, their powerset on top of a good martial tradition and actual time to devote attention to battle means that they get to ignore tons of limitations that exist to make the fiction interesting.

 

In warframe, if the Nekros can summon a useful minion, then it'll be overpowered because it's essentially bring a 5th player into a game that can only scale to 4 players. 4 Nekros means you're now running 8 players in a mission scaled to 4.

 

If the Nekros summons a balanced minion, then it'll be useless due to the runaway scaling of enemy damage at higher levels.

 

The only way to make a minion character balanced is to force the player to invest a majority of their resources and attention into maintaining the minion, like an actual fictional necromancer would. But now the player is forced to not be an awesome space ninja and play spherehunter-DDR instead.

 

Exploring the dualities of Life and Death does not automatically mean minions, there are much more interesting things that could be done with the concept.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Zeful

[Noble_Cactus]

But the Nekros wouldn't be summoning a fifth player into the game. He'd be spawning another enemy. Summoning a fifth character implies that the minion has human cognition, knows when to wallrun, knows when to take cover, knows how to aim for headshots, revives downed teammates, and does everything a living, thinking player does. AI doesn't do that in this game.

 

The space ninja moniker is bunk, in my opinion, We only have a couple characters who could truly be considered "ninjas" as defined by popular fiction: Ash and Loki. Valkyr is definitely not a ninja, Frost is not a ninja, Rhino is DEFINITELY not a ninja. Unless you are saying that turning Nekros into a "true" necromancer would entail him babysitting a pet while his teammates run and jump around. Which could be the case. But that's why undead minions are disposable. Use them to defend an objective, hold down a hallway, whatever. then dump them and move on.

 

You have a valid point about exploring Life and Death, and that's why I'm such a fan of Diablo 2's Necros. They are not evil, though they are shunned by all other mages. They are necessary actors that maintain opposing yet intertwined states of being, and they manipulate those boundaries in their magic. That's why they create golems, use curses, and inflict DoT poisons in addition to summoning hordes of skeletons. Summoning minions can be part of Nekros' skillset, but so can cursing (Terrify), manipulating life forces (Vitality drain, Desecrate), and so on.

 

http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Necromancer

 

For anyone reading this thread, take a look at his spells. They capture the notion of a Necromancer perfectly.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Zeful]

But the Nekros wouldn't be summoning a fifth player into the game. He'd be spawning another enemy. Summoning a fifth character implies that the minion has human cognition, knows when to wallrun, knows when to take cover, knows how to aim for headshots, revives downed teammates, and does everything a living, thinking player does. AI doesn't do that in this game.

 

The space ninja moniker is bunk, in my opinion, We only have a couple characters who could truly be considered "ninjas" as defined by popular fiction: Ash and Loki. Valkyr is definitely not a ninja, Frost is not a ninja, Rhino is DEFINITELY not a ninja. Unless you are saying that turning Nekros into a "true" necromancer would entail him babysitting a pet while his teammates run and jump around. Which could be the case. But that's why undead minions are disposable. Use them to defend an objective, hold down a hallway, whatever. then dump them and move on.

 

You have a valid point about exploring Life and Death, and that's why I'm such a fan of Diablo 2's Necros. They are not evil, though they are shunned by all other mages. They are necessary actors that maintain opposing yet intertwined states of being, and they manipulate those boundaries in their magic. That's why they create golems, use curses, and inflict DoT poisons in addition to summoning hordes of skeletons. Summoning minions can be part of Nekros' skillset, but so can cursing (Terrify), manipulating life forces (Vitality drain, Desecrate), and so on.

 

http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Necromancer

Maybe not in exact behavior, but statistically? If it's remotely effective, it's stats will match or exceed the player that summoned it. Because that's the scale the game's mechanics operate on.

 

Incidently, I made a point to distinguish between a "minion master" and a necromancer. This is because for the purposes of this discussion, they aren't the same thing in the least. A minion master is a character that summons, controls, and empowers various creations to do his work for him (or to fight alongside him), which in fiction often gives him the opportunity to pursue other fields (as he does not have to take to the battlefield to solve his problems) for a game this is problematic because these basic assumptions behind a minion master breaks the mathematical underpinnings that derive how certain challenges are presented. A necromancer by contrast is not bound by the archetype of the minion master, but making a necromancer a minion master goes to showcase the inherent tragedy of someone pursuing an understanding of life and death, as their failures only serve to show the futility of the effort. A necromancer can also be a user of dark powers to maim and kill in horrific ways, binding his victim's spirit to their decaying flesh for eternity not for use on the battlefield, but as a grand curse that'll only drive the target mad.

 

And I've played Diablo 2, it's a pretty good example of the kind of range that exists within the archetype. But it's not exhaustive by any means.

 

I mean if we really wanted to play up the thematic "duality of life and death" then this might be a fun way of doing it:

 

Spirit Everlasting: Cast on an enemy to make an enemy immortal for 20 seconds. Every time they would be killed, they are instead knocked down and release a cloud of poisons, dealing Gas and Corrosive damage to every enemy in the area of effect.

 

You now are tormenting a foe, it has synergy with Terrify, and fits with the "raising an enemy from the dead for profit" without needing to worry about dealing with a skill that mechanically does so much more than any other in the game.

 

As for the ninja bit: Who's popular fiction are we using? Because while you might have a point with Western fiction, Eastern Fiction has ninjas be part mystic and part warrior, much like how warframes currently work.

[Noble_Cactus]

I think that's the point of contention. There's no reference point for what "ninja" in Warframe means. Though considering their name (Tenno), I'm more willing to go with the "Eastern" definition.

 

Fair point about what a necro does. Thematically, Spirit Everlasting fits the necromancer theme well. It turns the target into an undying (for the moment) bomb, creating endless pain for the target and killing his friends. But it treads a little too much on Saryn's territory by virtue of elements. The problem we have here in WF is that each frame only has room for four moves to portray a theme. As such, each move needs to be able to capture several aspects of what it means to be that theme at once. Nekros seems to be a support class; giving him poison clouds and a resurrecting enemy fits the necromancer theme but it doesn't really give him anything that Saryn already doesn't have. Not to mention that having an enemy who won't die on the battlefield would be very annoying for teammates unless it's a Butcher or something. I understand what you were trying to illustrate, though, in that dealing with life and death doesn't have to specifically mean summoning minions.

 

As you said, there's a vast scope of what it means to be a Necromancer. Controlling minions is a part of that, but certainly not the only aspect. Somehow we have to fit more characteristics in three other moves while making him stand out from the rest of the cast. Then again, we're not exactly sure how Nekros is supposed to be different apart from re-rolling the droptable dice.

 

Self-correction: I shouldn't say Diablo 2 is a perfect overview of a necromancer. It was more to provide an example of a character that covers the bases well.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Zeful]

There's going to be a lot of crossover with Saryn, as the concept of necromancy actually tends to be pretty allegorical to the various horsemen of the apocolypse, which includes the various wasting diseases from Famine and Pestilence. Any kind of degenerative effect will end up looking similar to Saryn in that way. Heck even the iconic "age them to death" power would end up looking like Saryn's 4. So you'd have to accept some similarities in mechanics as a result of theme.

 

Though, in my opinion, how Nekros should feel in game should be less, "I'm a necromancer, I'ma gonna steal your life away," and more, "I am an avatar of death, your life is in my hands and you shall die when it benefits me."

[Elydir]

Well the thing about necromancers is, there's only one rule: he needs to raise the dead. You can have all that life-death experimental stuff too, but that should be his priority. Right now he can only deliver on that through his ultimate, which hardly counts since it's just an obligatory "heres your enemy revival" meat shield rather than an actual focus of his combat style.

 

"Age them to death" sounds more like a Time-frame power.

[Zeful]

Well the thing about necromancers is, there's only one rule: he needs to raise the dead.

No they don't. Necromancy as a fiction includes that prominently, but it is not the end all be all. Further, the mechanical design of warframe means that a necromancer focused on "raising the dead" as an effective means of fighting is overpowered as long as the minion(s) exist, and underpowered until he gets them out.

 

I mean really think about it: unless the game takes steps to make the game scale harder when the minion is out (which is stupid), if it's effective at doing it's job, you're now running a 2 man mission scaled to 1 man, and with four Nekros, it's an 8 man mission scaled to 4. And that's with 1 minion. If all four abilities generate minions, it's 5 to 1 for how badly the Nekros outscales content (again, assuming these minions are effective as long term fighters rather than short term bombs or meat shields). This is the basic problem with summoners and minion masters in all kinds of games. Unless everyone is one, you cannot balance the option as equal to other options, because those options will be designed with assumptions that the minion master breaks.

[Archwizard]

I mean really think about it: unless the game takes steps to make the game scale harder when the minion is out (which is stupid), if it's effective at doing it's job, you're now running a 2 man mission scaled to 1 man, and with four Nekros, it's an 8 man mission scaled to 4. And that's with 1 minion. If all four abilities generate minions, it's 5 to 1 for how badly the Nekros outscales content (again, assuming these minions are effective as long term fighters rather than short term bombs or meat shields). This is the basic problem with summoners and minion masters in all kinds of games. Unless everyone is one, you cannot balance the option as equal to other options, because those options will be designed with assumptions that the minion master breaks.

 

I'd love to see your results with Mind Control and Shadows, if you think minions are comparable to players as it stands.

 

The way I imagine it, is that Nekros should have potential (key word) to build up minions, perhaps even enough to be as strong as a full team of Tenno - but it will take time to do so, and there's nothing to say each Nekros on the team would be equally effective in terms of collecting minions, since you have to mark each yourself (and only one minion can be raised per enemy). From what I've got in the OP, they'd also periodically be losing a percentage of health, and as level goes up, the flat amounts of healing you can provide for them will get progressively less effective, which I believe to be fairly self-balancing to contrast their increasing damage output.

 

A quick test for you to try: Go to any map on solo, even low level, and make sure you hit every enemy with a single-target 1 skill before you kill them. Bonus points if it's got low damage or a cooldown.

You'll be a while.

It's what you'd need to pull off to become menacingly overpowered, and this is before you consider allies - including minions - dealing their own damage, how much damage your minions are taking or how many Drains you can dish out.

 

It gives versatility to his playstyle, since you can choose to go for the reasonably slower and more difficult but more rewarding path of building and sustaining an army, or simply run amok inspiring terror, reaping souls and spot-healing allies as needed - as well as everything between, of course.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

No they don't. Necromancy as a fiction includes that prominently, but it is not the end all be all. Further, the mechanical design of warframe means that a necromancer focused on "raising the dead" as an effective means of fighting is overpowered as long as the minion(s) exist, and underpowered until he gets them out.

 

Its not about "end all be all". He can do anything else he wants on the side, as long as the first thing he can do is call up the dead to fight for him. His ultimate just seems like an obligatory summon skill used like a mass decoy rather than an actual army of minions, and its pricey and has a cooldown too.

The way Archwizard wrote up looks like it has a lot of tuning knobs for this effect like Vitality Drain. I wouldnt call it "underpowered until he gets them out" either since there are several popular frames that rarely use abilities to deal direct damage.

[VoidGhost]

Yes !!!,I would recomend this as an alternate skill set as well as bulking Necros up

[ScorchedIce]

Huh.. so far i agree with most you propose, i just have a few quick ideas i wanted to share.

Necrosis seems good, but i'm not entirely sure about DE liking something like it, because it seems kinda too powerful, the closest thing to Necrosis is Mind control and it doesnt deal any damage, you propose low damage and a debuff, but it's still damage. That being said, I like the idea, but think that it would have more use if it could command SOTD's minions.

Terrify sounds perfect. 100% agree.

Drain Vitality sounds quite useful to be frank, but you would lose the utility of Desecrate of extra loot, most importantly in survival, where it shines the most. Drain Vitality sounds like it could be one of those "universal mods" that DE talked about a few streams ago.

SOTD: Good addition. nothing else to say here.

But i need to reiterate: Nekros need a better way to "pick" what souls he wants. It's really annoying and frustrating not being able to kill whatever comes your way / is attacking you, or a teammate, because you'd f up your next SOTD. And in that last case, helping that teammate clean a few mobs, just means you have to start preparing a new set of souls from scratch, specially in high levels, if you want your ult to actually do something more than draw fire for 3 seconds because they re-died.
 

[Archwizard]

Necrosis seems good, but i'm not entirely sure about DE liking something like it, because it seems kinda too powerful, the closest thing to Necrosis is Mind control and it doesnt deal any damage, you propose low damage and a debuff, but it's still damage. That being said, I like the idea, but think that it would have more use if it could command SOTD's minions.

 

I wouldn't really compare the two. Mind Control is a snap CC (one that I already think has some problems of its own, but that's for another thread); it immediately takes any enemy out of the fight for a good while, assuming your allies don't instantly slaughter it while its back is turned. Necrosis basically just activates on the target's death - much more friendly to the wholesome party slaughter, but more difficult to execute and maintain as levels increase.

 

To clear up the confusion, the 'debuff' I refer to is not some separate damage-increasing effect on top of the enemy revival. Imagine if they'd taken out the damage buff and speed reduction from Molecular Prime; it'd still be a debuff, since there's an impending explosion. Even Mind Control debuffs the target, to mark their changed allegiance. The debuff mentioned in the OP's description is just a visual marker for the impending resurrection; a hidden, passive effect on the enemy.

[size=2]Which happens to deal a little damage of its own, for those pesky targets who'll refuse to be revived anyway.[/size]

Makes more sense to have enemies with Necrosis glow to point out "hey, kill this guy for a cookie from your Nekros!" than it would for, say, Bladestorm to announce "hey, kill these guys to &!$$ off your Ash!"

 

Drain Vitality sounds quite useful to be frank, but you would lose the utility of Desecrate of extra loot, most importantly in survival, where it shines the most. 

 

That's the point.

 

Like I've been saying, there's nothing wrong with Desecrate generating loot - it just shouldn't be in Nekros' hands. It should be a sentinel ability or even one of those generic mods you mentioned, due to the RNG element (self-cast buff to increase loot generated, for example - fits with generic abilities in most games!). Desecrate doesn't just make him good at Survivals, it inebriates people on power to ignore his many flaws (including the fact that you cast it about three dozen times in two minutes and contributed approximately 2 kills for your time) because he's too good at Survivals, despite being more of a pain nearly everywhere else.

 

To be explicitly clear: as long as Nekros has Desecrate, he will only be Desecrate. 

 

Want to give him a niche? How about something minion-based, since we have no-one like that, and his theme screams it. A necromancer wouldn't need a handout like Desecrate (or its literal handouts) if they made him right.

 

But i need to reiterate: Nekros need a better way to "pick" what souls he wants. It's really annoying and frustrating not being able to kill whatever comes your way / is attacking you, or a teammate, because you'd f up your next SOTD. 

 

Alleviating that behavior was kinda the point of Necrosis, actually: if you see a mob you really want, just snag it. Guarantee yourself that you'll get what you want no matter who's stealing your heavies, and use Shadows to snap-boost your army with any minis you caught along the way.

If you think it still matters to you too much, Terrify remains an option - more so, with the ability to recast it - but know that from that point you are playing a riskier game, by your own volition, with the tools readily at your disposal. 

 

In short, customizing your own playstyle and giving you options. Do it, don't, up to you.

 

I was big on the idea of Soul Punch prioritizing souls for Shadows for a while, but honestly, that just breeds too much direct reliance on one to use the other on its own. With the skillset in the OP, you actually have a fair bit of leeway; you can use any of the skills alone with potent results - they just work best together, a la frames like Loki.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

For lore reasons, wouldn't the "virus" in necrosis actually be a swarm of nanomachines? Maybe the nanomachines enter the target's body and copy it from within, or they hover around the target and analyze it. This could give it a clear visual indicator to your teammates as well.

 

There's going to be a lot of crossover with Saryn, as the concept of necromancy actually tends to be pretty allegorical to the various horsemen of the apocolypse, which includes the various wasting diseases from Famine and Pestilence. Any kind of degenerative effect will end up looking similar to Saryn in that way. Heck even the iconic "age them to death" power would end up looking like Saryn's 4. So you'd have to accept some similarities in mechanics as a result of theme.

 

Though, in my opinion, how Nekros should feel in game should be less, "I'm a necromancer, I'ma gonna steal your life away," and more, "I am an avatar of death, your life is in my hands and you shall die when it benefits me."

 

True. I hadn't actually seen Necrosis since Archwizard added it, and adds a little more diversity in Nekros' dealings with the dead by applying a Doom debuff on the enemy. Though it still deals with minions. But yeah.

[Archwizard]

There's going to be a lot of crossover with Saryn, as the concept of necromancy actually tends to be pretty allegorical to the various horsemen of the apocolypse, which includes the various wasting diseases from Famine and Pestilence. Any kind of degenerative effect will end up looking similar to Saryn in that way. Heck even the iconic "age them to death" power would end up looking like Saryn's 4. So you'd have to accept some similarities in mechanics as a result of theme.

 

Which isn't really an issue in my mind. Lots of frames share one or two similar abilities - Ash and Loki's Invisibility and Teleports, Loki and Saryn's Decoys and melee buffs, Ember and Oberon's ground-targeted AoE, Oberon and Mag's ults, Mag and Vauban's Pulls, Rhino and Excalibur's charges, Excalibur and Zephyr's jumps and dashes, etc.

 

Ultimately though, they're almost all used in very different ways.

[Archwizard]

For lore reasons, wouldn't the "virus" in necrosis actually be a swarm of nanomachines? Maybe the nanomachines enter the target's body and copy it from within, or they hover around the target and analyze it. This could give it a clear visual indicator to your teammates as well.

 

Swarm of nanomachines that enter and attempt to take over the target's body, or a diluted strain of Technocyte with Neural Sentry tech (fitting, given where his parts drop, and the fact that Viral is less effective on Infested...).

Either works, but the exact explanation doesn't matter nearly so much as the effect.

 

True. I hadn't actually seen Necrosis since Archwizard added it, and adds a little more diversity in Nekros' dealings with the dead by applying a Doom debuff on the enemy. Though it still deals with minions. But yeah.

 

Necrosis has been in the OP since the beginning, though there was about a day where I tried to just fuse it back into Soul Punch... but it was so radically different I went ahead and made it Necrosis again.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

Swarm of nanomachines that enter and attempt to take over the target's body, or a diluted strain of Technocyte with Neural Sentry tech (fitting, given where his parts drop, and the fact that Viral is less effective on Infested...).

 

I like the second explanation a lot. It always kinda bugged me how hes a necromancer but doesnt have anything to do with the Infested.

[Onihikage]

Regarding the first ability, why not combine it with the current effects of Soul Punch? Ragdoll, fly back, and also infect any enemy the flying body hits. For Terrify, I would suggest another addition: give some percentage chance to paralyze, which would essentially make the enemy be a ragdoll for the duration of the ability.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I may just be a filthy console peasant, but I like Nekros as he is. Maybe some tweaks, but I like the abilities he has for their variety and utility.

 

I agree with others and think Soul Punch could use some more AOE knockdown. When there's a heavy unit blocking a door or an ancient charging me while I reload, I have a skill to save myself. It's not a strong damage-dealer, and I'm okay with that. It would be a significant improvement if, in addition to throwing an enemy back, there was a radial knockdown/ragdoll throw at the point of impact.

 

Ditto for Terrify could benefit from effecting all enemies in range instead of a limited number, and maybe have a slight decrease to cast time to make it a better panic button, but it already does what I need it to. I start the cast while diving toward a downed ally, hit the ground, raise the roof, and can dump pixie dust on them in peace.

 

Desecrate is really beneficial for survival, like Chaos is really beneficial for defense or Stomp is for capture (not required, but frozen capture targets just ensure success). Double rolling the dice is still double rolling. Yeah, I do spam it. Yeah, spamming it cuts into my kills because I spent much less time shooting. I also get more ammo, orbs, and drops for my team and nobody else really does that. Okay, so I like teamwork and playing support. There's nothing wrong with one being a good survival mode frame. Taking this away and giving it to sentinels would be like taking Chaos away from Nyx and doing the same. It's a unique power, let him have it.

 

Shadows of the Dead is probably his weakest ability as it is and is his ult, so it could do with the most improvement, but I want to keep the spirit (haaaah... sorry) of a disposable army on demand. I think the duration limit should be removed. It scales with enemies, as it just revives them with the same stats they had when they died, which means they'll be killed off naturally. I think the real weakness is that the shadows do nothing to defend you. They should be made to follow you more closely and operate in a "Revenge, then attack" way. Like the shade sentenel, they should go after an enemy that damages you, but they can't be useless if they're doing their squishy caster meatshield job and soaking up fire, so they should attack the nearest enemy if you haven't been hurt and stop attacking to catch up when you move a certain distance away. They'll be more useful because they defend and advance toward the source of damage, and this will improve the "minion master" feel without having to throw out all his non-minion abilities. Finally, let it be recast while active. All the minions from the previous cast die when recast, but it will let you keep the little army going as long as you can pick up the kills and have energy. Making it more "on demand", again, improves the feeling of being a minion master but without making him a dedicated minion master and removing his other abilities. It's less of a "buff" and more of a "de-nerf" to remove the obvious shortcomings while keeping the general limitations of energy cost, cast time, and the need to kill suitable enemies.

Edited March 18, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[-CM-Mark]

After reading the post and all replies, as someone who use nekros from some time i must say, i don't really agree with the OP and the majority of opinions.

I agree that nekros abilities need some adjustment, but in my opinion they are really tweaks, not complete rework like you propose:

 

Soul Punch: just substituting the single target limit with a narrow cone of action, a little like mag's pull would do wonders, maybe with viral effect

 

Terrify: replace number of enemy affected with AoE, the enemy doesn't run, but cower on the ground paralized in fear

           alternative: increase at least to 10 at max ability the number of enemy affected, they drop they weapon and run in circles

 

Shadow of the dead: just remove the time duration, let the shadow be around until killed by the enemy, in keeps scalability and makes it a real useful ultimate.

 

This is just my humble opinion on the matter, i really enjoy using nekros and i really wouldn't like a total rework as you propose OP, it would be too much another thing, but i agree that there is room for improvement on his abilities

 

p.s. edit sentence error

Edited March 19, 2014 by EideticMark

[Archwizard]

Desecrate is really beneficial for survival, like Chaos is really beneficial for defense or Stomp is for capture (not required, but frozen capture targets just ensure success). Double rolling the dice is still double rolling. Yeah, I do spam it. Yeah, spamming it cuts into my kills because I spent much less time shooting. I also get more ammo, orbs, and drops for my team and nobody else really does that. Okay, so I like teamwork and playing support. There's nothing wrong with one being a good survival mode frame. Taking this away and giving it to sentinels would be like taking Chaos away from Nyx and doing the same. It's a unique power, let him have it.

 

I don't see it that way.

You can't equate Chaos to Desecrate. Chaos is just one of several CC; you take it away, there are a dozen more frames capable of doing Nyx's job, and she still has Absorb to boot. Desecrate is - as you say - one of a kind, which is part of what's wrong with it: because people need this one skill, they'll put up with how bland and underwhelming his other three abilities are for the sake of their Survival scores.

 

Now I will grant, any frame repeatedly casting their signature ability is generally intended (after all, look at Shield Polarize or Slash Dash!). So Nekros using Desecrate could still be fine!

... If his theme was Farming, not Necromancy.

 

What do you think would happen if you gave, say, Molecular Prime to Loki? To say the least, it would distract players from his "non-damage" role.

What if you gave Renewal to Banshee? Or Bounce to Saryn? Or Snow Globe to Ash? Because a looting skill for a necromancer is equally out of left field, and it's just as confusing to the rest of us as those combinations would be. The difference being that we're living it.

Whether you like it or not, theme matters. A helluva lot more than how unique the skill is, as long as the whole set sings a different tune.

 

You understate Desecrate's contribution: It's not just "really beneficial for Survival", it's a crutch for Survivals, single-handedly capable of doubling or tripling one's score with little effort. Prior to Update 12, you'd have been better off equating it to Snow Globe, as the only thing about the frame that anyone considers worth casting. 

 

Besides, Chaos and Snow Globe fit the schemes of the frames who use them.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Regarding the first ability, why not combine it with the current effects of Soul Punch? Ragdoll, fly back, and also infect any enemy the flying body hits. For Terrify, I would suggest another addition: give some percentage chance to paralyze, which would essentially make the enemy be a ragdoll for the duration of the ability.

 

Short answers are, I feel that such additions to Soul Punch would be way too much for any single ability, and it goes against the point of Terrify to just keep enemies rooted (on top of making it too similar to Bastille).

[Elydir]

You understate Desecrate's contribution: It's not just "really beneficial for Survival", it's a crutch for Survivals, single-handedly capable of doubling or tripling one's score with little effort. Prior to Update 12, you'd have been better off equating it to Snow Globe, as the only thing about the frame that anyone considers worth casting. 

 

That and literally nobody even wanted desecrate until survival mode came out.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I don't see it that way.

You can't equate Chaos to Desecrate. Chaos is just one of several CC; you take it away, there are a dozen more frames capable of doing Nyx's job, and she still has Absorb to boot. Desecrate is - as you say - one of a kind, which is part of what's wrong with it: because people need this one skill, they'll put up with how bland and underwhelming his other three abilities are for the sake of their Survival scores.

 

Now I will grant, any frame repeatedly casting their signature ability is generally intended (after all, look at Shield Polarize or Slash Dash!). So Nekros using Desecrate could still be fine!

... If his theme was Farming, not Necromancy.

 

What do you think would happen if you gave, say, Molecular Prime to Loki? To say the least, it would distract players from his "non-damage" role.

What if you gave Renewal to Banshee? Or Bounce to Saryn? Or Snow Globe to Ash? Because a looting skill for a necromancer is equally out of left field, and it's just as confusing to the rest of us as those combinations would be. The difference being that we're living it.

Whether you like it or not, theme matters. A helluva lot more than how unique the skill is, as long as the whole set sings a different tune.

 

You understate Desecrate's contribution: It's not just "really beneficial for Survival", it's a crutch for Survivals, single-handedly capable of doubling or tripling one's score with little effort. Prior to Update 12, you'd have been better off equating it to Snow Globe, as the only thing about the frame that anyone considers worth casting. 

 

Besides, Chaos and Snow Globe fit the schemes of the frames who use them.

 

Getting things from the dead: out of left field and not fitting the theme for a necromancer. Wow, just wow. For all the "true necromancer" talk...

 

If anything, desecrate is his most thematically appropriate ability. Nekros in general is a blight on the sci-fi space ninja theme with all the souls and ghosts talk. Oh, it's "nanomachines." Right. But only for the precise enemies he's killed and he has no control over them, because that makes sense for clouds of tiny robots. Soul punch and terrify are not particularly fitting for a necromancer, and their very magical sounding descriptions don't fit into the sci-fi Warframe. I'm not going to make up fluff for descrate to make it sound more appropriate and non-magical, fluff is DE's job, but if you don't think it fits a necromancer, I don't have a way to respond that keeps it civil.

 

If they're going to throw out a skill, I'd rather they throw out shadows and give him a new, more direct ult. Maybe dial that drain life idea way up and use that. If they want a minion master frame to drag around the dead weight of their awful pathing and braindead targeting, make a whole new frame suited to it.

 

And above all useful, unique abilities are far, far more appropriate than copying other games' idea of what a necromancer should be and theme. Gameplay is much more important than Warframe's abysmally bad lore.

Edited March 23, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Noble_Cactus]

Yes, it is out of left field. That is more befitting a thief, scavenger, or rogue class, not a necromancer. Looting bodies may have to do with corpses, but that barely scratches the surface of what a necromancer is capable of doing.

 

Plus it's f*cking boring. 90% of my Survival time is spent pushing 3, and it's dreadfully dull. Yet it's necessary for my team's success. He is the team handyman, the team janitor. Doing the thankless job nobody else wants to do but needs to be done: sweeping floors. Does anybody actually enjoy playing Desecrate? Doesn't seem like it, and to us that's bad game design.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Noble_Cactus