Reform Dat Cash Shop

[Aethernet]

I'd like to posit that Warframe emulates league's(or a similar style of cash shop). Takes a looooong time to unlock stuff, but you can pick what you get at every step of the way and there's no real way you could unlock every champ/rune without having played a long time on top of spending money.

Champions/warframes - Expensive to buy, take 2-3 weeks of casual play to buy with IP. Offers a different way to play so the investment is big and feels rewarding, much like warframes.

Runes/Mods - Expensive(or rare in warframe's case). League has the leg up here IMO, runes take a while to acquire but offer significant buffs and collectively increase the power of your champ noticably while allowing you to choose what strengths you want to bring out for your investment. You can't buy them directly but you can get ip boosts to increase the rate at which you acquire them. League's system is time consuming but feels fair and always feels like you're making consistent progress towards what you want to be in game. The new mod system seems like a massive abuse towards new players with the RNG nature of it. I felt pretty burned after grabbing some mod packs too, personally. RNG is kind of ruining the experience right now. It is REALLY exciting to get something cool, but most of the time I'm just getting trash and rarely feel like I'm making reasonable progress in character/power progression.

Masteries - Attached to level...Pretty much unanimously requested by the warframe playerbase as far as I can tell. I'd like to see something similar to league's masteries implemented rather than the old system(but I'd still take those boring stat increases over all the nothing we have right now).

Conclusion: I am comparing the stores and stat progression here not the pve/pvp nature of the games. LoL's store feels tight, expensive and fair. I don't feel like I get gipped when I buy stuff for league nor do I feel like other players are skipping over my head by using boosts, which leads me to play more and admire what other people have bought with their time and money, something I rarely feel myself doing in warframe.

What I'm getting at here is that the store in warframe feels like a massive blackhole for money rather than an avenue to increase fun. You are purposely @(*()$ with people's fun and progression and holding your hand out at every street corner asking for change. I can tell you right now 3 of my friends have basically stopped playing your game because you're putting a giant rock in front of them. Are/were they buying stuff in your game? No. But I was/have, and now my friends aren't able to have fun in this game with me anymore. Which means I am not spending money on your cash shop anymore. Tailor your store towards the 5-10% of people who will buy the cool toys you make. Other players are your content for the people who do pay. If I can't run missions with my friends then why am I playing your game?...Or spending money for that matter?

Just food for thought, DE.

This is not a rage, it's a warning. I REALLY like this game(and so do plenty of other people), don't ruin it by being greedy. Make it fun, make it good, add lots of toys and those of with expendable income WILL buy your goods.

TL/DR:

5-10% of people will buy stuff from the cash shop.

Those 5-10% need the other 90% able to run missions too because it's fun to not have deadweight on your team.

Greed is bad, Mmk?

Just because you have a surge of players buying mod packs/whatever right now is not a sign you will keep people coming back for more.

[MercuryDoll]

Comparing a third person coop shooter with a competitive realtime strategy RPG. This is not how you get your point across.

If you want to say that the current cashshop's offer of "convenience" is BS and you'd rather have something pretty to dress your Tenno in, then use something more relevant.

E.V.E. Online has the "you can buy everything in the game with inworld currency"-feature too. apart from "convenience" like big spaceships for 50 bucks they also sell a S#&$ton of vanity items too though. and they're making millions with it.

I still don't get why DE thinks there's nothing to gain by selling vanity items that have otherwise no effect on gameplay when there are multiple examples of games that make good cash with it.

Just think about it: tophat and monocle for Frost and Rhino, long wavy scarf for Ash and jester/Harlequin suit for Loki and Nyx. i KNOW people will buy these if they were available at a reasonable price.

[ArieHimself]

I think he means the ingame stores. Not the game itself

[Blatantfool]

Comparing a third person coop shooter with a competitive realtime strategy RPG. This is not how you get your point across.

Gameplay has no bearing on this topic. Even RTS games are learning from that business model.

Other games, including FPS and TPS, have borrowed heavily that business model and done pretty good for themselves.

Warframe is actually BETTER suited for it then games like Firefall (Another game influenced by that business model) because there are more points where the games parrelel.

Buying a Warframe straight up isn't unlike buying a League Champion. You do it to save time having to earn it and get the champ/frame right away.

Skins are skins. Since they don't make a huge difference in combat (Even though Warframe helmets DO have effects they do not do anything drastic enough to change this point) it doesn't make a difference what kind of game is selling them - they sell and present the same kind of thing in the game. Skins are 'Genre neutral' if you will.

And boosters and random boxes are the same in all games. Bought for the same purpose and usually around the same prices.

[NumberFiveee]

Not to mension that buying a warframe with platinium get's you a warframe with potato i believe.. that's like a max lvl 60 warframe..

Edited March 25, 2013 by whitehorus

[Aethernet]

Comparing a third person coop shooter with a competitive realtime strategy RPG. This is not how you get your point across.

If you want to say that the current cashshop's offer of "convenience" is BS and you'd rather have something pretty to dress your Tenno in, then use something more relevant.

E.V.E. Online has the "you can buy everything in the game with inworld currency"-feature too. apart from "convenience" like big spaceships for 50 bucks they also sell a S#&$ton of vanity items too though. and they're making millions with it.

I still don't get why DE thinks there's nothing to gain by selling vanity items that have otherwise no effect on gameplay when there are multiple examples of games that make good cash with it.

Just think about it: tophat and monocle for Frost and Rhino, long wavy scarf for Ash and jester/Harlequin suit for Loki and Nyx. i KNOW people will buy these if they were available at a reasonable price.

I am strictly speaking cash shop here, not gameplay or even genre(Which eve is also way the hell out there in terms of gameplay so I don't get why you say league is so different then bring up eve >.>).

Cash shops do have to be tailored to the game they're attached to, but in essence they all offer essentially the same sorts of things(boosts, in game vanity items, items in general, missions, dlc etc) and some are worse than others in regards to value/feeling worth it.

I'm saying warframe is nickel and diming people and that it's going to make the free players quit...which means those of us who have spent money on the game will be left with no one to play with. I'm asking nicely for them to rethink their store and offer fun and unique items like skins, boosts, frames, etc instead of purposely blocking people's in game progress with pitifully low percentage RNG drops. Remove catalysts/reactors/credits/mod RNG packs from the store and add blueprints for those items.

For example:

Rifle mod X requires crafting materials and credits. You can choose what mod you want instead of relying on RNG(and keep mods as drops and make them rarer). Make it take 12 hours and increase the rarity/number of mats required based on the type/rarity.

There, you now have a way to encourage the player to buy a boost or to speed up the crafting without relying on nickel and diming mechanics to impede progress. Takes time and farm and guarantees you progress towards something you want to have. players who spend money will feel good and free players can still play without feeling dejected.

[kaizoku222]

They need to make a good game first. The game isn't bad as is, but the new equipment design, the limited enemy designs, the gimmicky stuns/removal of player control, the lack of differentiation between frames and their abilities, weapon balance, risk reward for both combat styles and drops vs enemy level, and various other smaller issues (like abilities that blind everyone due to too much bloom) all need to be worked on before a cash shop can be finalized.

If they make a good game, the cash shop will fall into place, but the direction they're taking it is not a good one. Really good cash shops rely on cosmetics, boosts, and utility items, not basic content. League is *not* a good exmaple of a cash shop, there's a massive and inhibiting grind for free players, skins can cost a huge amount, and to play at level 30 and not be gimped you have to have 2 rune pages and 2 characters of each role at the very least. Much better exmaples would be DoTA2 or Everquest 2, both are thriving, and both rely entirely on cosmetics, small boosts, or small utility items. Anything else is stepping into pay2win territory, and at that point the devs are just trying to create a skinner box to push people to buy content.

[Tebbo]

Both of those have installed fanbases because they are established IPs.

Really bad examples.

DE will figure things out. The core of the game is great. It's just a matter of tweaking, bug squashing and adding more, more, more.

[kaizoku222]

Your argument doesn't follow, are you saying those cash shops only work because they were an existing IP? Because that's not correct, DoTA2's fan base is primarily new players, DoTA1 was popular but not anywhere near as popular as DoTA2 is now. The core of the game is just okay as is, it could be much much better, and focusing on a cash shop right now will make DE make decisions based on monetization, not what's best for gameplay. A purely cosmetic cash shop would work just fine so long as the base game was good enough to draw people in, as it is right now I don't think the current system has lasting appeal and if that doesn't change DE will have to nickle and dime people to get profit.

[Silenterr]

Not to mension that buying a warframe with platinium get's you a warframe with potato i believe.. that's like a max lvl 60 warframe..

Umm you still have to level it up.

[Aethernet]

Both of those have installed fanbases because they are established IPs.

Really bad examples.

DE will figure things out. The core of the game is great. It's just a matter of tweaking, bug squashing and adding more, more, more.

Wrong.

I've played league the second it got out of beta. Before it had millions of players and before they had stable servers.

The cash shop is essentially the same as it was originally, before the game grew to millions of players. They only sold skins and boosts along with champion packs. Do you know what they changed? Quality.

The quality is getting better while prices have stayed the same. The skins and champions are massively improved with each patch, tweaking already great skillsets and skins. They make passes at old content and continually improve the quality and quantity of new things.

League has kept the same philosophy of fair cash shop business model from the beginning, which has contributed greatly to their success. Do you think it would have gotten as big as it has if say the runes were bought/gotten as random rewards at the end of a match?

[Ferriwind]

Actually, DE's cashshop has taken a hit since they really catered to free players this update. Although the grind has increased with the implementation of the new card system, credits reward in missions and alerts have increased significantly and crafting materials drops are at a very nice place. I would say the grind for mods has increased temporarily but the grind for everything else has dropped to a manageable level.

I'm not sure how well this will continue, but if and when better card customizations come out, DE should start to sell individual cards also to generate more revenue since many players are complaining about RNG(random number generator). I don't see any greed here.

[Tebbo]

I was talking about DOTA 2 and Everquest 2.

Relax.

[Aethernet]

They need to make a good game first. The game isn't bad as is, but the new equipment design, the limited enemy designs, the gimmicky stuns/removal of player control, the lack of differentiation between frames and their abilities, weapon balance, risk reward for both combat styles and drops vs enemy level, and various other smaller issues (like abilities that blind everyone due to too much bloom) all need to be worked on before a cash shop can be finalized.

If they make a good game, the cash shop will fall into place, but the direction they're taking it is not a good one. Really good cash shops rely on cosmetics, boosts, and utility items, not basic content. League is *not* a good exmaple of a cash shop, there's a massive and inhibiting grind for free players, skins can cost a huge amount, and to play at level 30 and not be gimped you have to have 2 rune pages and 2 characters of each role at the very least. Much better exmaples would be DoTA2 or Everquest 2, both are thriving, and both rely entirely on cosmetics, small boosts, or small utility items. Anything else is stepping into pay2win territory, and at that point the devs are just trying to create a skinner box to push people to buy content.

Fair enough, I wanted to disregard direct gameplay though.

My beef is that it's hard for free players to enjoy, so they leave. Leaving us with no one to play with. The RNG is cool on a small scale, but like you said, so much of the game takes control out of the player's hands(both in game and out) that it gets grindy, tedious and often frustrating. Not good for business.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Aethernet

[Aethernet]

I was talking about DOTA 2 and Everquest 2.

Relax.

Whoops, my bad. Misread completely >.<

[Ferriwind]

League has kept the same philosophy of fair cash shop business model from the beginning, which has contributed greatly to their success. Do you think it would have gotten as big as it has if say the runes were bought/gotten as random rewards at the end of a match?

There is a great difference between a moba and a action shooter/scifi-rpg. In LoL, there isn't really a character progression besides getting runes and masteries(hopefully some sort of mastery is added to the Tenno rank) and with the isometric style, Riot can churn out heroes much more quickly then DE can churn out warframes. Right now, the warframe balance is a bit dangerous,imo, so I agree they need a bit of work, but the cash shop isn't at all detrimental to new/free players.

[kaizoku222]

Fair enough, I wanted to disregard direct gameplay though.

My beef is that it's hard for free players to enjoy, so they leave. Leaving us with no one to play with. The RNG is cool on a small scale, but like you said, so much of the game takes control out of the player's hands(both in game and out) that it gets grindy, tedious and often frustrating. Not good for business.

I feel that gameplay and the success of a cash shop are too closely linked to not speak about them simultaneously. I also feel strongly against the assertion that cash shops need to sell main-line content to begin with to be successful, and such a practice is just used to mask a lack of production and a stale game by directing the players progression through a very slow, very controlled channel to encourage monetization. I don't want DE to head down that route of releasing a new warframe every couple weeks with "small damage first ability, utility second ability, movement/control third ability, kill everything fourth ability" in different flavors while neglecting the rest of the game.

If devs want to sell content, sell it as a full game, don't make your player base the investors while making your entire focus on figuring out how to get the investors to keep paying. Figure out how to get them to keep *playing*.

[Ferriwind]

@kaizoku222

Yes, I agree! and I do think DE is working very hard to keep players around. It's just a matter of time and fixing/improving many mechnics and balance issues.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Stygi

[Aethernet]

I feel that gameplay and the success of a cash shop are too closely linked to not speak about them simultaneously. I also feel strongly against the assertion that cash shops need to sell main-line content to begin with to be successful, and such a practice is just used to mask a lack of production and a stale game by directing the players progression through a very slow, very controlled channel to encourage monetization. I don't want DE to head down that route of releasing a new warframe every couple weeks with "small damage first ability, utility second ability, movement/control third ability, kill everything fourth ability" in different flavors while neglecting the rest of the game.

If devs want to sell content, sell it as a full game, don't make your player base the investors while making your entire focus on figuring out how to get the investors to keep paying. Figure out how to get them to keep *playing*.

Agreed.

[StabbyTentacles]

Some interesting thoughts here.

We’ll all pay/buy more if items/purchases are made a little more transparent, and we’ll all be a lot happier doing so, when things are fairer as well.

I’ve also been questioning some of the DE shops procedures/practices on another post…

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/17962-more-transparencyplasticity-in-platinum-spending/page__view__findpost__p__161436