Update 7/open Beta Rant

[plastictrash]

First off, I'm trying to keep this constructive. I've been playing Warframe since December 2012, pretty extensively, and I do in fact like the game. A lot.

However, there's just too many issues piling up to keep quiet about.

When I started playing Warframe, it was still on Update 4 or 5. I bought a Founder's Package when Update 6 rolled out, because I was under the impression that you actually care about your player base. I appreciate you (Digital Extremes) adding new content, and you seemed to listen to your players commenting on the game, and I wanted to show support for that kind of development practice.

I introduced a lot of my friends to the game and although most of them were interested, none of them are playing anymore, and to be honest, as the game stands right now, I can't recommend it to anyone, with a good conscience.

Here's why.

Instead of focussing on fixing bugs, you appear to be more interested in adding new content. As I said, I appreciate it, I like the new maps, I like seeing new Warframes and weapons, but there are game breaking bugs that need to have priority over adding new features and content, for example:

- In some missions, when a squad mate is down, the revive trigger won't activate, so the other players don't get the popup to revive them. I'm aware of this bug since Update 5, and I know it's been reported countless times. This is already bad enough, but since you still charge money to recharge revives, this becomes a game breaker. You just can't make people pay money for errors in your software. This is borderline fraud, and the fact that this still isn't fixed, is completely unacceptable.

- I've already started another thread about the lag issues and the bugs that are related to it in the General Bugs forum, so I won't get into detail here. Warframe is an online game and especially since you have players hosting their own servers, you need to put ressources into streamlining your netcode, above anything else.

There is also no way to determine whether a host you're joining has a good connection or not, so it's always a gamble, if you've equipped weapons with low fire rate or low projectile speed (zip-zapping enemies are impossible to hit, especially the fast ones, like the Grineer balls)

- There are no statistics on Warframes, whether in the market place, nor in the Arsenal. If you charge money for new Warframes, you need to give players enough data to make an informed decision as to what they're spending their money on. You could let this slip during closed beta, because the players were naturally more involved and more likely to communicate about their decisions in the forum. Open Beta is a whole other story. If people buy something they're not satisfied with, they will blame you, and they have every right to do that, because you're not giving them the information they need.

- When you introduced the wallrunning mechanics, it was a nice feature, but never really needed for the game. Then the Asteroid Base map rolled out, with rooms that need the player to utilize the wallrunning mechanics to progress. However, the mechanics are never explained in the game. Again, you could let that slip in Closed Beta, because people were communicating, but in Open Beta, if a player doesn't figure it out, there's a pretty good chance they're going to assume it's a bug and stop playing. If you have mechanics in your game that players need to use, but aren't self explanatory, you have to explain them, it's as simple as that.

Same goes for the new fusion system / mod inventory. I found out by accident that you could mark multiple mods by shift-clicking them, but it's never explained anywhere and it's the only part of the game that uses it, so it's not a consistent feature that players are aware of. You need to explain these things, or you will turn potential players away.

I've had forum discussions before about mechanics not being explained and other players argued that they liked to find out these things by themselves. These people, however, are a minority in the market, and unless you want to build your game around an elitist, xenophobic community, you have. to. explain. these. things.

And now comes my final gripe with Update 7: the revamped mod-system. I understand why you did it. I would even agree that it's better in the long run, than the old skilltree with mods. I don't even mind too much that I spent all my credits after Update 7 rolled out to upgrade just a couple mods, when you still charged like 10k for a fusion. I also understand that you have some pressure to create revenue from the game. But what this whole thing shows me is that you've changed your focus from creating an enjoyable experience for your players to monetization at any cost. This is bad, and from experience, I can tell you that this will backfire. If a product asks players to pay, they will, if the product is good. If the product is bugged and appears to be fraudulent, people won't pay and will stop playing instead.

Anyway, that's it for my rant, and I really hope that someone at DE will read it. I still enjoy the game (although I'm mostly playing solo now, because of the lag issues), and I still think that Warframe is a good game with a lot of potential. I just hope that you will find your way before you turn into another Zynga.

[Blatantfool]

I'm reaching a plateau where I just fail to care about playing. It is weird.

I'm going to keep playing a bit until I don't have an excuse to keep the game on my computer and then put the horse to pasture. Feels like all I can do.

Warframe could still turn out great, easily, but I'm feeling more like it is headed down a road I don't quite care for. They had me hooked when the game had that really bizarre and fun power level where everyone gets real OP and starts to mow through trash mobs - but they ditched that for the sake of making the game more grindy recently. Not thrilled with it.

Weird thing it - there is no good way to put into words the situation I'm in with Warframe. The game still plays well and it looks fairly decent - in fact I'm of the opinion that the new level and the Banshee frames are the best designs yet. They both rock.

But I don't seem to have it in me to care for any of the grind. I've been grinding a bit regardless - seeing if I can't stabilize my situation and get to a comfortable spot - but even getting a shield mod drop and all didn't make it more interesting.

I suppose it is the knowledge they've strayed from a state that I thought suited the game.

I really wish they'd have just worked on more complex enemy behaviors then dropping a colossal nerf bomb on everything.

Still, gonna hang in there a while yet. Wanna see where it goes.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Ferriwind]

This is a good, constructive post. I agree with many of your points. One thing, though, is the priority of streamlining netcode with fixing bugs, balance, and improving gameplay mechanic. The appearance of poor hosting is few in my opinion... more players just need to not host games if they know they can't handle it.

@Blatantfool

Haha, the new levels really are the most balance right now, aren't they. I thought I was the only one, although the mobile defenses spawns are appalling.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Stygi

[Blatantfool]

@Blatantfool

Haha, the new levels really are the most balance right now, aren't they. I thought I was the only one, although the mobile defenses spawns are appalling.

The newest level isn't just good in the layout and gameplay sense.

It looks and feels better. The Corpus Base tileset had a better impression on me then any moment in a level before that point. First time I exited a vent into a large open area I was very happy with what I saw. It looked and felt good to play. That is two victories for the tileset. It is far and away their best yet.

Banshee is also a new favorite design. I've not played her due to the grind it takes to get anything done - but I honestly feel she looks fantastic. I'm a big fan of frames with really cool armors like that.

Which makes it worse that feeling weaker all around is burning me out big time.

The levels and frames are getting nicer and more appealing and the game itself is getting more tedious. It is an ugly situation. I shouldn't want to go play another game after only a short time on Warframe. That is the sign of a real problem. I'm not the only one in this boat considering the wide variety of complaints and worry you see here over and over.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[plastictrash]

Well, maybe if the game was more transparent about the match making, for example show you all available hosts for a particular mission, along with their latency time, I'd agree. Or if there was an option to actually host a mission. Right now, all you can do is workarounds. If you know people with a good connection, they can host a private game, which you can join, but no public players will be able to join that. And if the person with the good connection hosts a public game on a mission with more than one host, good luck getting connected to theirs. Unless you have them in your contact list and join via right click, but that only works as long as less than 3 people have connected before you.

Right now the match making just too copius, in my opinion. I know it's supposed to be fluid drop-in-drop-out, but I'd prefer a bit more control.

I agree about the new Outpost map. Very well designed, and I love how it blends in with the old spaceship tiles. And I really love sprint-sliding down the last hill to the extraction point. I'm so easily entertained.

[Blatantfool]

I agree about the new Outpost map. Very well designed, and I love how it blends in with the old spaceship tiles. And I really love sprint-sliding down the last hill to the extraction point. I'm so easily entertained.

I consider it part of the lore that Tenno like to go sledding. This is clearly the case if what that hill shows us is true.

[plastictrash]

Warframe could still turn out great, easily, but I'm feeling more like it is headed down a road I don't quite care for. They had me hooked when the game had that really bizarre and fun power level where everyone gets real OP and starts to mow through trash mobs - but they ditched that for the sake of making the game more grindy recently. Not thrilled with it.

One of my Warframes is a 30 Mag and until Update 7 I had a couple Range and Power mods installed. It was such a rewarding feeling to run into one really crowded Asteroid Base room and just crush 30 or 40 enemies to dust. Not a lot of games make you feel that empowered. But I guess we all knew that this wasn't going to last.

edit: Now I'm back to head-shooting them one by one from an air vent. Kinda fits the assassin theme better, I guess. Still kinda weird to see them all just standing there, waiting for their deaths.

Edited March 25, 2013 by plastictrash

[plastictrash]

One thing that breaks the immersion for me, with the new Outpost map, however, is the ice modifier that caps your shields atr 50%. It didn't make too much sense in the spaceship tiles already, but I just don't understand how a few pieces of ice in the indoor areas influence your shields when the outdoors is already frozen.

[Blatantfool]

One thing that breaks the immersion for me, with the new Outpost map, however, is the ice modifier that caps your shields atr 50%. It didn't make too much sense in the spaceship tiles already, but I just don't understand how a few pieces of ice in the indoor areas influence your shields when the outdoors is already frozen.

Now that you mention it - that is actually pretty hilarious.

[Notso]

I agree that everything the OP mentioned needs to be fixed [except the "monetization at any cost", no idea how he concluded that]. However one thing I see time and time again, in betas, full release games, whatever, is people calling for the dev team to stop producing new content and focus on fixing bugs.

Two points here.

1/ The people responsible for pushing out new content are not the same people responsible for bug-hunting, and I doubt that every single person on the team is a skilled bug hunter. It doesn't help their dev team is tiny compared to AAA games which even on release have wayyy more bugs than Warframe.

2/ Stopping produce of new content will cause the game to die before all the bugs are fixed. What then, is the point of a dead game - even if it has no bugs?

[Marabitos]

I consider it part of the lore that Tenno like to go sledding. This is clearly the case if what that hill shows us is true.

Thats the only spot I can play rhino and not be 2 miles behind everyone. Who'd have thought heavy S#&$ goes downhill well lol.

[Blatantfool]

Thats the only spot I can play rhino and not be 2 miles behind everyone. Who'd have thought heavy S#&$ goes downhill well lol.

If only there was some way to make your Tenno wave their arms in the air and say 'WOOOO!' on the way down.

[plastictrash]

I agree that everything the OP mentioned needs to be fixed [except the "monetization at any cost", no idea how he concluded that].

Well, for starters, there is now an item in the market that directly translates the Plat you use to buy it into game credits.

Then, color palettes are still 75 plat, as well as weapon skins, despite having no use whatsoever in the game (although I prefer cosmetic items over pay 2 win any day, so no complaints here)

Finally, the new mod system. The fact that you can now buy booster packs of mods for Plat, with randomized results. You're probably familiar with the old system, but now, if I want to get all my Warframes (I have 10) to a similar quality that they were before Update 7, I need to find all the mods again at least once for each Warframe, and then spend unholy amounts of credits to upgrade them with Fusion Cores. It will take forever to aquire the credits through gameplay alone, as well as the mods, so I'm more or less forced to buy boosters and Plat-to-Cred converters, unless I want to spend the next couple months doing nothing but grinding. This is a prime example of monetization, and not one of the good ones.

However one thing I see time and time again, in betas, full release games, whatever, is people calling for the dev team to stop producing new content and focus on fixing bugs.

Two points here.

1/ The people responsible for pushing out new content are not the same people responsible for bug-hunting, and I doubt that every single person on the team is a skilled bug hunter. It doesn't help their dev team is tiny compared to AAA games which even on release have wayyy more bugs than Warframe.

2/ Stopping produce of new content will cause the game to die before all the bugs are fixed. What then, is the point of a dead game - even if it has no bugs?

I know that the people creating visual content are not the same ones that fix bugs. I'm working in the games industry for about 8 years now and I know how studio pipelines work. However, it's never just the people modeling new Warframes. There have to be designers who balance new powers and programmers to implement them. And you said it yourself, DE is a relatively small studio, so a programmer implementing new powers or mission types is a programmer that can't fix floor-clipping bugs or the revive bug. The fact that these have been around for months and still aren't fixed, tells me that much.

I agree that a game like Warframe needs new content to stay fresh, but as long as there is no solid, relatively bug-free base to build that new content on, it's just pouring oil into the flames.

And the fact that since Update 7, there is this new bug that players can't use their melee attack anymore without any apparent reason, or that the Infestation in the Ixodes defense mission can't reach the core and just stand there, waiting to be picked off by snipers on crates or rocks, tells me that DE should invest a bit more time and ressources in QA, instead of rolling out this new content, hoping for the best. As I said, you could let a lot of these things slip in Closed Beta, but it's Open Beta now, so more people will notice, and it's not good PR for neither the game, nor the company.

[neKroMancer]

Bug fixing and creating new content are two simultaneous processes. No games were perfectly clear of bugs at release date. The fact that DE or any developer's QA unit are definitely smaller, much smaller than the actual playerbase mean the game will never be free of bug without the help of player reporting them.

[plastictrash]

To add to the monetization at any cost argument: I still see a lot of bugs that were reported during Closed Beta, which still haven't been fixed, although it's Open Beta now, so this tells me that the desire to tap into a bigger market has been bigger than to create a more stable product.

I'm perfectly aware of the financial risks of running an independent games studio, and I wish for DE to have financial success with Warframe, they definitly deserve it, but personally, I think that aiming for short term revenues at this stage is the wrong way and will potentially be harmful for the game and the developer.

Edited March 25, 2013 by plastictrash

[HadronVictorioso]

I agree with the points regarding the grinding and the explaining of game mechanics - back when I was new to the game, I couldn't wallrun or anything, so some missions became impossible.

[Laki]

I agree that everything the OP mentioned needs to be fixed [except the "monetization at any cost", no idea how he concluded that]. However one thing I see time and time again, in betas, full release games, whatever, is people calling for the dev team to stop producing new content and focus on fixing bugs.

Two points here.

1/ The people responsible for pushing out new content are not the same people responsible for bug-hunting, and I doubt that every single person on the team is a skilled bug hunter. It doesn't help their dev team is tiny compared to AAA games which even on release have wayyy more bugs than Warframe.

2/ Stopping produce of new content will cause the game to die before all the bugs are fixed. What then, is the point of a dead game - even if it has no bugs?

These are very important points to keep in mind. Especially the first one. Just because more content is coming out does not mean that they are devoting fewer resources or people to finding and fixing bugs.

To add my two cents, more transparency with stats would be a wonderful thing. Especially when purchasing items. I spend a lot of time alt tabbing to the wiki page to see what users have found out about specific items (for example, whether or not the fang dual daggers are armor ignoring, what the innate crit chance is with dual zorens, etc). Being able to see that information in game would be incredibly helpful and would eliminate a lot of confusion.

[VelenoHargreaves]

These are very important points to keep in mind. Especially the first one. Just because more content is coming out does not mean that they are devoting fewer resources or people to finding and fixing bugs.

It's hard to agree with that since there are bugs that has been in the game since Closed Beta, and even with the tons of people posting of the forums, the bugs stay in the game... New content is good, but are hard to put credits on it if there are bugs that have been reported but stays in the game for a long time...