@de: Why I Give Up On Balancing Warframe's Components

[Calayne]

+

 

 

Warframe will never be balanced overall. We can see that in DE's choices (and choices by omission...looking @ you MP). But it can be saved from horribly funneling us into choices and builds...with the efforts of some of the veterans and 'new guard' posting in this thread.

 

With enough viable choices and sufficient challenge (and sustainable content generation), it's possible that we can thoroughly explore and enjoy an unbalanced game for an indefinite period of time.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

Who is this ^ guy? Somebody get him a chair or something!

 

Volt, I know you already counter-argued against this in the OP. However, this is why balance doesn't have to occur across the entire level spectrum. There is an soft upper bound on player power, written by mod slots, MPs and somas.

 

As I have previously argued, the process of getting TO that "Endgame" power cap is so enthralling for many players that they get sucked in only to be wholly disappointed upon reaching it.

 

Even if that pre-Endgame process is never fixed (with the exception of a better new-player experience), players can and will overlook the lack of balance and fall in love with WF. We did.

 

However, by establishing a rough balance at Endgame, DE can prevent that love from souring as challenge and progression go out the window once players reach that quasi static, soft-upper bound point.

 

TL;DR - Volt and Ganpot are not allowed to give up yet. We're not done.

 

 

Really it's that the grinding and the leveling and the modding feels like it's prepping you for something really epic and players are more than happy to do that......but then the game never advances beyond those activities. The numbers get fiddled and you get one-shot. Not much of a climax to hundreds of hours of play. The nature of the challenges don't really change either. You're still doing exactly what you were doing as a newbie. Part of the reason the mission format system contributes to the sense of "this isn't going anywhere, is it?" Because they recycle ideas several times over throughout gameplay.

 

Maybe that's a positive step they could take, to combat the sheer amounts of bottomfeeding that goes on in this game. By moving some mission types to only higher level areas. It won't help veteran players but at least new players would get the illusion of some kind of progression in challenge. It's the reason I can't really bring myself to play non-Survival missions at higher levels. The difficulty beyond being one shotted simply isn't there.

 

 

Both are valid observations regarding Warframe. To be honest, clocking at 300 hours only so far, I'm probably the least-experienced player here.

 

But to be honest, I think DE is aware of this end-game issue we talk about. Grineeer is supposedly in Warbros clan, back then, and I'm certain high-level survival as "End-game" wasn't a surprise to him. 

 

Now, end-game is non-existent, and player progress is measured in mods as well as gear-collecting. Personally, I think (or hope, rather) that DE actually has some distant plan in the future, perhaps after the elusive Vor's Prize, to cater to veteran players like ourselves, who has accumulated a ridiculous amount of weapons, mods, and god-like power. Or, if they don't, it's in the works, at least.

 

But, like Volt, I believe we still don't have a stable base for that. As I've argued in another thread, our power levels are just too large in gap. We need a systematic progression and upper/lower limits to effectively build a campaign around. After the upper limit is reached, end-game is then decided on teamwork, enemy difficulty and skill-based challenges, rather than simply about grinding gear. This is assuming you've already got the best of everything. 

 

I can see where they're going with Warframe: Unique tilesets for each planet, with special missions in each (hopefully). I would argue that this is part of what might make Warframe something you'd come back to: The sheer amount of mission types in the future may expand beyond the simple "Kill everything", "Steal something", "Save someone", formula. Interception is a testament to the growing mission types. Perhaps DE needs to cater to veterans for these missions as well, having a "Hard mode" for the upper limit of each mission, when you've finally hit the power cap.

 

Difficulty scaling has always been tricky business, and now is made impossible by our stretched-out power difference. We need to logarithm this sh*t. We need to compress this sh*t so hard, diamonds come out the other end. And until we do that, we're going to be fighting missions in nebula: Missions being too hard or too easy, in extremes.

[(PSN)pmnovaroadspilot]

the level design needs to be changed 

im sorry but this is the one thing that needs to be fixed if you want a more engaging experience 

 

more diversity in levels will utilize more of the ninja skills which we all like 

it will stop the clusters of mobs where aoe skills become a necessity and sometimes spammable because you cant be elusive like ninjas are supposed to be 

you in a alleyway against heavy gunners...yeah you need to use aoe

i think people would use better tactics and different straits if level design was different. 

 

 

right now its take shots from enemy...then couple of shots to eliminate him. 

 

get swarmed...AOE 

 

the sequences are relatively short 

 

so instead of fixing level design 

you increase the quantity of enemies and increase the damage 

 

 

CHANGE THE LEVELS and fix the quality of the ai of the enemies fix their mobility  in the later part of the game 

Edited February 19, 2014 by (PS4)pmnovaroadspilot

[Nenjin]

We need a systematic progression and upper/lower limits to effectively build a campaign around. After the upper limit is reached, end-game is then decided on teamwork, enemy difficulty and skill-based challenges, rather than simply about grinding gear. This is assuming you've already got the best of everything.

 

Absolutely agree. But what to do with the rest of the playerbase who has basically become addicted to farming Apollodorous, or grinding out the newest Tenno reinforcement? I'd like to think no one is truly happy doing that but the truth is......lots probably are. That's probably what they come to WF for, is their 30 minutes of unregulated pew-pew glory and a new toy. How do you account for both kinds of players?

 

And i'm not sure they can safely because they've built their business model off the latter. Not without completely upending how they view gameplay and asking the player base to change with them. And we know how well that went over with Damage 2.0.....

 

nterception is a testament to the growing mission types.

 

Here I'm going to disagree though. Just like the Cicero Crisis, Interception amounts to a very small tweak to the standard formula. It requires a smidgeon more teamwork than other missions, which results in a lower wave completion time. But that's about it.

 

In terms of engagment, pacing and rewards, it's still inferior to Survival, as pretty much everything in game is. Why would I play a mission to stand in a circle and be bored, and have to wait 3 to 4 mintues for my reward.....when I could play Survival, be up to my neck in guys to kill and be getting mad affiinity, mat and mod drops? It's a double whammy. Not only is Survival more engaging, it's more profitable. I can't bring myself to play a slower paced mission that worse rewards and takes longer. Not even for the (surface-deep) variety.

 

Now, if they start coming up with missions that actually require different skill sets (parkour, stealth, evasion, rushing) those would entice me to play even though the rewards may not be as great. But no missions ask that of us right now. Void missions are the only thing that actually requires you to parkour (well and those Mastery Rank missions), and even that is optional.

 

Tenno cannot survive on the buttered popcorn of gameplay indefinitely. We need some real meat in this game, something with calories that keeps you full for a while. Every mission is basically empty calories of shooting enemies who can't really hurt you and vacuuming up the rewards.

[LukeAura]

Difficulty scaling has always been tricky business, and now is made impossible by our stretched-out power difference. We need to logarithm this sh*t. We need to compress this sh*t so hard, diamonds come out the other end. And until we do that, we're going to be fighting missions in nebula: Missions being too hard or too easy, in extremes.

I support this level of compression! (Especially if there is diamonds involved in the end.) Enemies can be made to be just a little bit beefier, and a have a little bit more damage. But most of the challenge can't come from this, it can help, but it can't be the core of challenge.  

I've got about 450 hours by the way, been foruming since 200 hours, 300 is really more than enough, after the first 100 or so you know everything you need to anyways. It's just a matter of reaching it all. And I personally can't wait for the day that Warframe reaches the point in which you always feel like you're learning something new, regardless of hour count. 

I'd agree with Notion as well, real choice would go along way to making Warframe more enjoyable, even without balance. Rewarding different, less efficient, playstyles could potentially solve a lot of issues.  

Oh and hey Nenjin, apparently you've earned a chair. Congrats. 

 

[Calayne]

Absolutely agree. But what to do with the rest of the playerbase who has basically become addicted to farming Apollodorous, or grinding out the newest Tenno reinforcement? I'd like to think no one is truly happy doing that but the truth is......lots probably are. That's probably what they come to WF for, is their 30 minutes of unregulated pew-pew glory and a new toy. How do you account for both kinds of players?

 

And i'm not sure they can safely because they've built their business model off the latter. Not without completely upending how they view gameplay and asking the player base to change with them. And we know how well that went over with Damage 2.0.....

 

 

 

 

Here I'm going to disagree though. Just like the Cicero Crisis, Interception amounts to a very small tweak to the standard formula. It requires a smidgeon more teamwork than other missions, which results in a lower wave completion time. But that's about it.

 

In terms of engagment, pacing and rewards, it's still inferior to Survival, as pretty much everything in game is. Why would I play a mission to stand in a circle and be bored, and have to wait 3 to 4 mintues for my reward.....when I could play Survival, be up to my neck in guys to kill and be getting mad affiinity, mat and mod drops? It's a double whammy. Not only is Survival more engaging, it's more profitable. I can't bring myself to play a slower paced mission that worse rewards and takes longer. Not even for the (surface-deep) variety.

 

Now, if they start coming up with missions that actually require different skill sets (parkour, stealth, evasion, rushing) those would entice me to play even though the rewards may not be as great. But no missions ask that of us right now. Void missions are the only thing that actually requires you to parkour (well and those Mastery Rank missions), and even that is optional.

 

Tenno cannot survive on the buttered popcorn of gameplay indefinitely. We need some real meat in this game, something with calories that keeps you full for a while. Every mission is basically empty calories of shooting enemies who can't really hurt you and vacuuming up the rewards.

 

I actually don't think grinding will be affected. Apollodorus is still the mob-churning meat-factory as ever, and new updates come regularly from a department that doesn't focus on this aspect of the game's design.

 

And this is because I believe the campaign should be a separate entity from our star-chart missions. If there ever is a campaign mode, it will be a story that we progress through, and seeing that we can ferry people across the star chart (Perhaps the relay was used to combat this), campaigns will have to be independent somehow, or risk players bypassing content. Not desirable, at all.

 

I think Damage 2.0 went very well, though. Impact is judged based on what happens a period of time after it has passed, not immediately after. A steady state must be reached. The transient period will always be filled with hate, love, and contradicting viewpoints. It's inevitable. In time, the haters who don't understand anything quit, the ones who do, eventually acclimate, and those with rose-tinted glasses eventually see its flaws, and they begin tweaking it bit by bit with each other's feedback.

 

As far as I can tell, Damage 2.0 is still better than Damage 1.0, despite the furore (Which was understandable, but indubitably generated a lot of bullsh*t before anyone tested it out enough).

 

------------

 

 

Regarding the other comment about needing more meat, I wholeheartedly agree. I think we all agree on that. But the thing is, I think they're really not working on that right now, and we'll have to bring it to their attention at some point of time: Interception can use some tweaking, surely. because I don't think it's what it's meant to be. That is to say, a frantic game of control, where you battle against legions of enemies to hold your ground. 

 

But the concept is there, as well as the mechanic: Missions of different types springing up here and there in every planet, and perhaps some that leverage the amazing design of the Mastery Rank tests, could be missions to come. We desperately need variety. That is true.

 

Exterminate at later planets should hold enemies much harder than their other counterparts: A dueling environment, where you go against tough opponents with deadly abilities and teamwork, rather than the typical grunt who we one-shot in survival. Something slightly exciting. 

 

Spy and Deception shouldn't be about carrying data-masses. They're both about the same. Fortunately, one of them is about to change, soon, but we'll see about that.

 

But my point is this: If they're pumping out new missions like this, they can make unique mission types for each planet that truly give progress in the star chart meaning beyond resources and mods, to see what new game modes are at later levels, and each provide their own challenge. And if we implement difficulty level selection, we'll effectively provide a buffer for end-game, which we're desperately waiting for.

 

Hell, I'll buy all their Prime Accesses if they implement these ideas, and I'm broke. I love this game. I want to see it grow.

[Calayne]

the level design needs to be changed 

im sorry but this is the one thing that needs to be fixed if you want a more engaging experience 

 

more diversity in levels will utilize more of the ninja skills which we all like 

it will stop the clusters of mobs where aoe skills become a necessity and sometimes spammable because you cant be elusive like ninjas are supposed to be 

you in a alleyway against heavy gunners...yeah you need to use aoe

i think people would use better tactics and different straits if level design was different. 

 

 

right now its take shots from enemy...then couple of shots to eliminate him. 

 

get swarmed...AOE 

 

the sequences are relatively short 

 

so instead of fixing level design 

you increase the quantity of enemies and increase the damage 

 

 

CHANGE THE LEVELS and fix the quality of the ai of the enemies fix their mobility  in the later part of the game 

 

Fella's got a point. But in a another sense: I think it's the map algorithm that needs tweaking. Right now, the paths are very, VERY linear. Come the day when multiple paths exist, I think we'll be able to do stealth, choke points and defend positions with much more variety. And our enemies can use the same tactics against us, while spawning at reasonable locations (a.k.a. not appearing out of nowhere in rooms that have no doors).

 

We're slowly growing in enemy variety (Hopefully), so enemy types will probably not be that big of a problem, assuming they don't rely entirely on knock-down as well. So next up is the AI.

 

I support this level of compression! (Especially if there is diamonds involved in the end.) Enemies can be made to be just a little bit beefier, and a have a little bit more damage. But most of the challenge can't come from this, it can help, but it can't be the core of challenge.  

I'd agree with Notion as well, real choice would go along way to making Warframe more enjoyable, even without balance. Rewarding different, less efficient, playstyles could potentially solve a lot of issues.  

Oh and hey Nenjin, apparently you've earned a chair. Congrats. 

 

 

Amen to that. And all of that starts with balancing our power levels to manageable, recognizable levels that developers can plan for.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Calayne

[(PSN)pmnovaroadspilot]

You are still talking about damage 

you want different gameplay get different levels 

then think about the algorithms  

right now you are creating a environment where only a few people are satisfied by the hard math 

most wont look at it in depth and most wont like it when you fix it 

 

create a environment that utilizes other abilities

 

 

Thank you person above me gets it  

Edited February 19, 2014 by (PS4)pmnovaroadspilot

[Nenjin]

Oh and hey Nenjin, apparently you've earned a chair. Congrats.

 

It's very plushy, to better assist me in developing from it while not moving or making anything.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Let's say that endgame was balanced according whatever arbitrary difficulty we decide to establish. Let's say that DE did enforce a hard cap on power so that multiple builds were viable. What would that mean for lower levels. I can appreciate that some might want just nuke easy enemies while "hardcore" players want a challenge.

Balancing the top end is easy enough. Players that enjoy melting everything in sight are still allowed to lower levels. Those players by definition don't want challenge which means they don't want balance.

The real task for us then would be figure out a way to ensure progression/balance/challenge for growing players. This should be the target of our attention.

Edit: for the record, this assumes there is a way to allow massive power growth still allows build diversity.

Edit 2: I think I may have just solved it all... The Proficiency system from Fixing the Fundamentals... I'm on my phone now, but... I think I just solved it. O.o

Edited February 19, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LazyKnight]

When you get the time to discuss this, I'd like to hear what you have to say on the subject.

 

Most RPGs have a tendency for growth as you progress through the story.  

In most RPG, the scaling is fine-tuned and power growth is largely an illusion.

 

I want to see scaling nuked, for similar reasons. There is simply too much power growth from a stock weapon to a fully customized. It's absurd how much DPS weapons gain, if you compare a stock weapon's DPS to same weapon when fully customized.

 

Also, the NPC do not scale properly and it might be an idea to remove NPC level altogether. NPC do not need to have level growth, as they can have different types with different resistance values and more advanced power usage.

[LukeAura]

In most RPG, the scaling is fine-tuned and power growth is largely an illusion.

 

I want to see scaling nuked, for similar reasons. There is simply too much power growth from a stock weapon to a fully customized. It's absurd how much DPS weapons gain, if you compare a stock weapon's DPS to same weapon when fully customized.

 

Also, the NPC do not scale properly and it might be an idea to remove NPC level altogether. NPC do not need to have level growth, as they can have different types with different resistance values and more advanced power usage.

That's true, the different scaling aspects in warframe don't follow each other naturally. They're inconsistent. Guns and warframes take forever, and then a couple key mods are obtained and it spikes dramatically. Enemies take even longer as well, but they're not tied to mods so either you show up well scaled for the challenge or you aren't and find much more difficulty than intended. 

More NPC variety, even if just reskins with different powers, stats and behaviours, would go very far in solving growth. It would help mod dilution, it would help linearize progression.

More importantly it might near force DE to take an active handle on assigning stats to enemies and not just letting them follow an algorithm that isn't providing a satisfactory scale. So they can actually get an idea of what numbers they want enemies to have compared to us. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

As alluded to in my previous post's edit, I think I may have the solution to progression in Warframe.  I'm back on my computer now, so here's what I've got...  Keep in mind that I believe that some refining might be useful, but I think the following is the solution.

 

Goals:

1. Establish a stable growth platform for new players

2. Allow the establishment of a stable upper cap to damage for the sake of being able to establish proper difficulty at endgame

3. Allow build diversity

4. Allow players that wish for wanton mass destruction to have it by playing easier content than they have unlocked.

5. [if possible] Prevent rage associated with removing Serration/Split Chamber due players spending plat to buy them in trades, time/plat spent forma'ing weapons, and the cost of fusing them up for those that did that themselves.

 

If you've read Fixing the Fundamentals, this is going to sound very similar to the Proficiency system I turn Mastery into.  If you've read it, you might already see where I'm headed with this.

 

If you haven't read it, what I do is I break Mastery apart into subclasses called Proficiencies.  Automatic Rifle Proficiency, Sniper Rifle Proficiency, Rifle Proficiency, Gun Proficiency, and Mastery to name a few in this set.  They are organized as a tree.  More specific at the bottom and Mastery itself at the top.  The more specific a Proficiency is, the more quickly it advances.  Let's say you have to get 1 automatic rifle to R30 to get to Automatic Proficiency 1.  This might only get you halfway to Rifle Proficiency 1.  I also suggested that you should get exclusive mods after every so many ranks in a given proficiency.  Possibly even some flair.  This encourages players to play what they want rather than the current mess that Mastery is where you get access to better snipers because you maxed Excalibur.  You could also have certain weapons like the Soma locked at Automatic Rifle Proficiency 12 or some such.  Naturally, all those rifles would bump up your Rifle Proficiency to let's say 6 and your Gun Proficiency to 3.  

 

Critically, all benefits from a Proficiency are given to the player when any Proficiency or one of its ancestors in the tree exceed the threshold.  In our example with the Soma, because you have Gun Proficiency 3, you now unlock all rewards of Gun Proficiency's descendents up to those that have a requirement of 3.  Let's say then that you want the Hek which is Shotgun Proficiency 3.  You now have access to it.  If you want the Phage which is Shotgun Proficiency 4 though, you'll have to wait until either Shotgun Proficiency or one of its parents hits rank 4.

 

 

Now, back to the new system.  Assume the proficiency system is exactly as outlined above.

 

1. Each Proficiency rank requires just as many weapons brought to R30 as the last rank did (if it takes 20 weapons to get to Mastery 1, it takes another 20 to get to Mastery 2, another 20 to get to Mastery 3, etc).

2. Damage and Multishot mods remain in the drop tables

3. Elemental mods now merely convert a percentage of all damage that is not that element into that element.

4. Upon reaching Rifle|Shotgun|Pistol|Melee Proficiency 1 (a parent reaches Proficiency 1), you are awarded with Serration|Point Blank|Hornet Strike|Pressure Point but cannot rank it up.  Until this time, if you got it via RNG, you would be unable to equip it.

5. For every additional Proficiency rank in one of the R|S|P|M categories, you increase the maximum fusion level of that category's damage mod, up to the existing caps.  You may also not trade damage mods that are ranked up above where you can fuse.  You can still equip it if you've already got it (grandfather in existing players)

6. Upon reaching R|S|P|M Proficiency 5, you are awarded with that category's Multishot mod.  It obeys appropriately similar rules to Damage mods.

7. Every proficiency rank you acquire gives you one extra mod point for that equipment type where the bonus given is the maximum among a Proficiency and its ancestors (so if your Rifle Proficiency is 10, your Shotgun Proficiency is 0, and your Mastery is 3, your rifles get an extra 10 mod points and your shotguns get an extra 3).  This bonus is not increased by a Catalyst.

8. All equipment is given an additional two mod slots.

9. Alter other relevant mods like Blaze and Lethal Torrent to have much smaller damage/multishot bonuses

10. Planets are balanced according to Proficiency increases that would occur over the span of time it takes to play those before it, much like any RPG's zones.

11. Crit Chance is abolished

12. Crit Damage becomes a multiplier for how much weak point damage does

 

Now, let's look back up at our goals and how we satisfy them...

 

1. Player Growth: definitely allows that through Proficiency locks

2. Allow Endgame: there is definitely a damage cap for endgame players

3. Build Diversity: damage mods no longer hamper balance as they did before.  Are they still mandatory?  Yes.  But what difference does it make if they have a minimal impact on you?  Everyone will equip Serration+Split Chamber, but now you have more room for everything else and that's the extent of your damage mods.  Everything else is utility.

4. Allow Backtracking: all you have to do is play a lower level planet and you'll wreck things

5. Damage and multishot mods are still in the game and anyone that's got one is grandfathered in.

 

 

Perhaps I missed something, but...  I think that fixes it.  I think it makes everyone happy.  You get player growth without reliance on RNG.  You get logical progression.  You get the allowance of endgame.  You get build diversity.  You get the opportunity to just go obliterate everything in sight if you so choose.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[http404error]

-the solution-

 

I just read Fundamentals yesterday, and I still don't quite get your Proficiency model, specifically downward propagation of benefits. It seems like that current distribution of weapons is very uneven towards this goal, so that a lot of content may be unreachable. Have you actually sat down with a diagram and mapped out the weapons? That's something I'd like to see. Then, you could plot some potential paths that players could take, and show your concept off in a much more tangible way that would convince me more thoroughly. This is advice in general - the more modeling and examples, the clearer your ideas come across. Fundamentals was really hard to understand without any narrative or illustrations (figuratively speaking, although pictures are always nice) regarding what you would envision, say, a sample mission would be like with this change or that.

 

One issue with the Proficiency model is that many players like me enjoy diversifying their weapon usage. Under your system, it sounds to me like we're less potent than the players who focus on only a few branches. I do like that it reduces the number of things you have to choose between when progressing, but it doesn't quite seem totally intuitive to me.

 

I still hold that more diversification of modding possibilities is at the heart of the matter. If Serration is truly mandatory, then it absolutely should be built in instead of being a mod. Thus, either Serration should be nerfed until it's not the #1 choice, or removed entirely and built into weapon progression while players previously owning them are compensated fairly. I don't have a problem with either option, but if your suggestion is implemented as is, Warframes need to gain nothing innately on level up either, instead treating Redirection/Vitality/Flow the same way for consistency. Unless you had a separate vision for Warframes and their mods?

 

By the way, would potatoes double the mod point bonus?

 

It's also worth mentioning that to make your elemental mod suggestion potent, the damage tables should be streamlined into purely 2x and 0.5x to make calculations simpler and more intuitive. For example, a 40% electric mod means 40% more damage vs Robots, but 20% less damage vs Alloy Plate. I agree with the mantra that no mod should *just* add damage without a second thought, and I have been advocating for more mod drawbacks, but alas, all I got was Corrupted Mods. :(

[Volt_Cruelerz]

1. I just read Fundamentals yesterday, and I still don't quite get your Proficiency model, specifically downward propagation of benefits. It seems like that current distribution of weapons is very uneven towards this goal, so that a lot of content may be unreachable. Have you actually sat down with a diagram and mapped out the weapons? That's something I'd like to see. Then, you could plot some potential paths that players could take, and show your concept off in a much more tangible way that would convince me more thoroughly. This is advice in general - the more modeling and examples, the clearer your ideas come across. Fundamentals was really hard to understand without any narrative or illustrations (figuratively speaking, although pictures are always nice) regarding what you would envision, say, a sample mission would be like with this change or that.

 

2. One issue with the Proficiency model is that many players like me enjoy diversifying their weapon usage. Under your system, it sounds to me like we're less potent than the players who focus on only a few branches. I do like that it reduces the number of things you have to choose between when progressing, but it doesn't quite seem totally intuitive to me.

 

3. I still hold that more diversification of modding possibilities is at the heart of the matter. If Serration is truly mandatory, then it absolutely should be built in instead of being a mod. Thus, either Serration should be nerfed until it's not the #1 choice, or removed entirely and built into weapon progression while players previously owning them are compensated fairly. I don't have a problem with either option, but if your suggestion is implemented as is, Warframes need to gain nothing innately on level up either, instead treating Redirection/Vitality/Flow the same way for consistency. Unless you had a separate vision for Warframes and their mods?

 

4. By the way, would potatoes double the mod point bonus?

 

5. It's also worth mentioning that to make your elemental mod suggestion potent, the damage tables should be streamlined into purely 2x and 0.5x to make calculations simpler and more intuitive. For example, a 40% electric mod means 40% more damage vs Robots, but 20% less damage vs Alloy Plate. I agree with the mantra that no mod should *just* add damage without a second thought, and I have been advocating for more mod drawbacks, but alas, all I got was Corrupted Mods. :(

 

1. You want a graphic?  Here you go:

You'd just add equipment to its natural category.  You can add/shift/merge categories as new equipment is added or existing equipment is reworked.  Naturally the Braton is in Mastery->Gun->Rifle->Automatic, the Hek is in Mastery->Gun->Shotgun->Semi-Automatic.  Volt is in Mastery->Warframe->Caster.  Everything falls in its natural category.  Yes, there will be some blurred cases like the Tigris and Rhino that could go in multiple categories.  Just put it in the one with the least.  The details of the idea are arbitrary at this point.  The point is, there's a tree structure.

 

Also, a bit of explanation on the picture.  Whatever color background a node is on determines how many pieces of equipment that are the descendants of that node you must max in order to advance the rank of that node (that "Proficiency") by one.  Mastery->Gun->Rifle->Automatic is in red.  This means that to increase your M->G->R->A Proficiency by one, all you have to do is max one automatic rifle.  M->G->R is blue, so that means that you have to max two rifles in order to get your Rifle Proficiency to 1.  Gun requires 4 because it is grey.

 

Equipment can be Proficiency locked at any leaf node.  Hek might be M->G->S->S Proficiency 4.  Soma might be M->G->R->A 12.  Galatine might be M->M->H 4.  Rhino might be M->W->T 1 and Frost and Valkyr might both be M->W->T 0.

 

Now, for benefit propagation.  Let's assume that the above theoretical placements for the Hek, Soma, Galatine, and Rhino for the following demonstration.  Let's say I'm at MGRA 12, MGSS 0, MMH6, and MWT 0.  Naturally, I can use the Soma and Galatine, but the Hek and Rhino are outside my reach.  I really want to use Rhino, which is locked at MWT 1.  That means that I have to get either Tank or one of its ancestors (Warframe and Mastery) to be greater than or equal to 1.  This means that I could either use Frost and Valkyr, any assortment of four Warframes to bump up Warframe Proficiency to 1 (because it is grey), or any assortment of 8 pieces of equipment to get my Mastery up to 1 (because it is white).

 

Likewise, if I want to use the Hek, I have to either get MGSS to 4, MGS to 4, MG to 4, or Mastery itself to 4.  Does that make sense?

 

2. Not really.  I mean, with any given weapon type, yes, you wouldn't be as powerful, but isn't that kind of what you should expect?  Also, despite a player that splits their time between shotties and rifles having lower proficiencies in the two of those than a pure rifleman, both of those would (provided they'd maxed the same number of guns) have the same Gun proficiency.  Likewise with Mastery if they'd maxed the same number of melee/warframes.  There could also be assorted rewards for non-leaf nodes as I explain in Fixing the Fundamentals.  A player like you that splits their time would still get these benefits.  Also, perhaps there could be some benefits from each that you could mix and match in some other way that the rifleman wouldn't be able to do because they wouldn't have the shotty ones.

 

3. I agree that diversification is at the heart of the matter.  I've been arguing for weapons being sidegrades since what, last June when they started adding definitive upgrades instead of arguable sidegrades?  And that's just one facet of diversification of course.  Anyways, I also considered the idea of making damage mods just be passive benefits you'd get from the Proficiency tree.  What I'm hesitant about though is that if that happens, you'll risk angering a lot of people that bought theirs with platinum, spent a lot of time/money on forma, or spent the time/effort/credits to max it themselves, especially if they have more than one maxed Serration (maybe they were trying to buy low/sell high or maybe they just wanted one for their Dethcube too).  To make it a passive would be to necessarily delete duplicates.  If you can come up with some sort of compensation that will appease all parties involved, I'll happily change it to a passive.  Because I couldn't find a way, I left it as-is.

 

I'm fine with Redirection and Vitality picking up the slack if Warframes were to no longer have stat increases when they leveled up.  That said, I don't mind the inconsistency.  Warframes in the lore seem to be symbiotic living things that are attached to the Tenno underneath.  As you use it more, it's quite possible that it would in fact grow more powerful just by sheer use, just as your own muscles would strengthen and callouses would develop.

 

4. I actually covered this.  The answer is no.

 

5. I'd recommend taking a look at notionphil's thread on the subject.  IMO, it's where we should be going.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[BadAimbot]

Volt, the proficiency idea looks really nice. It's a bit complicated, but it would be a good fit for the game. It's good to see that you haven't really given up on balance. I'm similar to you in the sense that balance is the way I give feedback for this game... well, gave. I don't post about it anymore (although by my post count you can clearly see I wasn't as active as you), however it's because of the community's reaction to balance rather than the actual task itself. I think a 'close enough' can be reached for the majority of the weapons in this game, with only a few weapons being inherently unbalancable (Warframes on the other hand is the opposite, but DE at least said they will try to balance all of them), but I think mods are a lost cause ever since Corrupted mods came along. Still, I hope that DE will do something about balance eventually. Proficiencies would go a long way to helping that.

 

Also, on the subject of Serration and such being mandatory, I don't think it's such a bad thing. While having a mod slot being devoted to something isn't great, we have 8 of the slots to work with. Of course, right now we have about a minimum of 4 mods being mandatory (Damage, Multishot, and 2 elements) and that should be cut down. I wouldn't miss +Damage in the slightest though. It's always the thing you need to make a polarity for, and it certainly makes modding low level / low polarity weapons less fun.

[Calayne]

The proficiency concept does sound insanely complicated at first sight.

 

However, after letting it sink for a while, I think I know where Volt is going with it:

 

Basically, it works sort of like our current mastery where we level loads and loads of weapons, except now it's specialised into groups, and also provides bonuses based on what your proficiency of the weapon is, as well as your current Mastery rank.

 

I think this is a good idea, since it does provide a direct benefit of mastery, and gives you a sense of accomplishment; and simultaneously providing mods, a carrot on the stick.

 

But this method relies heavily on the types of weapon being equal: It's far easier to reach high Automatic Proficiency than it is for, say, semi-autos, because the sheer amount of automatics over semi-autos is ridiculously unbalanced, to say nothing of Rifles vs Shotguns. True, Mastery makes up for that, but in a way, the proficiencies with less weapons will suffer. I think this may make it feel like there's another aspect of imbalance to the game, because now there's a certain level of power tied to the amount of each type of weapon, and we know not all the weapons receive equal love. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps we should make a count?

 

I think the idea is lovely, it just needs some tweaking on the actual tree and benefits, I feel. The same thing for Warframes. It's far easier to get more mod energy for weapons than it is for Warframes,

 

What I like best about this idea, however, is that damage is now perfectly predictable. At a certain mastery, you're expected to be of a certain strength, and that's very good.

 

The problem, however, is that not everyone will be able to get a lot of weapons, and the grind to Rank 30 for every weapon is still as tedious as ever. Except now, it is mandatory to grind, if you want to be strong or competitive. Your fusion level is tied directly to your proficiency level, which is tied to the amount of weapons you've bought and ranked, and since not everyone has a large bank of weapons, this makes it very tedious to get stronger. From what I understand, to get Serration to Rank 10, you need to Rank 30 at least twenty Rifle weapons, is that right? Contrasting to the current scenario, where a Rank 2/3 can still be powerful, so long as he plays long enough: Maxed Loki, a burston, lex, orthos, gathering mods, maxing them out.

 

So, if the power cap is made with this hard/soft cap until your proficiency ranks up, it goes by logic that areas must also be locked, or effectively locked by our power level, according to Mastery/proficiency, as the developers now scale difficulty by our expected progress. What this means, is that people who don't pay for slots will need to wait a long, long time to get anywhere far, as you need to grind your weapon, grind for materials, build new weapons, wait for weapon to finish, grind weapon again, sell it, build again, wait again, grind, rinse and repeat.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood some concepts, but this was what I took away from it, and despite its many feasible ideas, it may seem rather complicated for a beginner to absorb: They won't even know why they can't rank up their mods, or equip it, even if they've gotten it via RNG. Seeing as how even a basic tutorial that hand-holds the player is nigh-nonexistant, this will surely become a bit of a problem.

 

The balance is certainly there, Volt. But I fear that the practicality of the solution leaves something to be desired. We need some brainstorming and fine-tuning to the solution's simplicity and the mechanism of growth, which I feel could be gentler on the newbies.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

-snip-

I believe I have a response to each of your objections.

 

EDIT: this post has been modified to assimilate other objections and my responses to provide a central location I can point to.

 

1. More Populous Weapons > Less Populous Weapons

While I can see where you are getting this idea, it is a trivial matter to just re-arrange rewards based on how many weapons there are in a given node.  If there are fewer weapons, you could just give rewards sooner.  Also, recall that Serration is a rank 10 mod while Point Blank is much smaller, allowing it to fit with the smaller pool of shotguns.  It really is a trivial matter to rebalance power.  Also, if you're talking about one pool of equipment having too much influence over others by sheer numbers, I'd like to respond by saying that the time spent focusing on that one pool could have resulted in the same Mastery effect if it was spread out.  And then, if all else fails, you could just weight different equipment types, so, say Warframes count twice as much towards Mastery as weapons do (like they do now, actually).  You could actually split overpopulated nodes and merge underpopulated ones.

 

2. Obligation To Grind

I can also see what you mean by this, but I do not believe it to be as much of a threat as you might believe.  Yes, grinding is imperative, but this is a FTP dungeon crawler.  Grinding, so long as it's fun, is fine.  I believe that now that players have a solid goal to work towards, they'll be more encouraged by the whole prospect and find it more fun.  You know you become more powerful as you grind, rather than the current system of "you might if RNG loves you."

 

3. Punishment of FTP Players

I disagree here.  Simply put, players can get sell things for platinum now and will grind if given a reason.  Before I became a Hunter, I hit Mastery 3 (before shared affinity) just because I had nothing else to do.  Even after shared affinity, I didn't bother leveling up anything new because I had no desire to.  Then U8 hit and I became a Hunter, went to Mastery 8 (I really wanted the Acrid) where I remained until U10.  Now I'm a Master and Mastery 12.  The point is, I got to 3 without any reason whatsoever.  I had no desire to use the then-OP Hek.  I was content with my Pro'd Burston (yes, I was one of those people).  Had you been tying my power level to it though, you can bet that I would have focused more on it and ranked up much faster.  It's not that I had anything against grinding or couldn't.  I just had zero incentive to at the time.  In fact, the moment that Mastery did become connected to my power level in that it was holding me back from Acrid, I worked my way through that as quickly as possible and found one of my favorite weapons (my Dera) along the way.  Sure, I was a paying player by then, but that really just meant that I kept the weapons after maxing them.

 

4. Complexity

Once again, I see your point, but it is only so complex because I'm trying to cover all the corner cases in a theorycrafting discussion.  To see a quick summary, take a look at the OP (which oddly enough is quoting a previous version of this post, but this post no longer contains the quoted information because it's in the OP lol).  That's really all there is to it.  The combination of seeing this tree in-game and being able to mouse over things to see how far along you are (in addition to an infodump in the codex) will mean new players shouldn't have any trouble understanding it, especially once they start using it.  Also, if they try to equip/fuse Serration before they're allowed, just have a little popup that says "Rifle Proficiency 2 Required."  Then, naturally, they'd go look to see what it takes to get to Rifle Proficiency 2 if they're not already aware.  I really don't see this causing much confusion for new players at all.

 

5. Slow Start for New Players

It could be argued that a new player would have difficulty getting past Mercury with only Mastery giving him power.  While this is a valid concern on some level, I would simply like to respond with the fact that provided that Mercury is balanced according to his capabilities, this concern is irrelevant.  True, he will only experience a limited portion of the game at first, but nothing is out of his ultimate reach.  There are plenty of credits-only weapons that he can use to boost himself up to get to Venus.

 

6. Reliance on Slots

I was once told that my idea was great in general, but punished new FTP players.  First off, I'd like to outright disagree with that.  Last year, I hit Mastery 3 before putting my first five bucks into this game and that was before shared affinity was a thing and I didn't even have motivation to increase my Mastery.  It just happened as a result of playing the game.  Even if I'm wrong and it does punish FTP newbies a bit harshly, giving them an extra free Warframe slot when they start the game would alleviate that significantly.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Calayne]

I believe I have a response to each of your objections.

 

1. More Populous Weapons > Less Populous Weapons

While I can see where you are getting this idea, it is a trivial matter to just re-arrange rewards based on how many weapons there are in a given node.  If there are fewer weapons, you could just give rewards sooner.  Also, recall that Serration is a rank 10 mod while Point Blank is much smaller, allowing it to fit with the smaller pool of shotguns.  It really is a trivial matter to rebalance power.  Also, if you're talking about one pool of equipment having too much influence over others by sheer numbers, I'd like to respond by saying that the time spent focusing on that one pool could have resulted in the same Mastery effect if it was spread out.  And then, if all else fails, you could just weight different equipment types, so, say Warframes count twice as much towards Mastery as weapons do (like they do now, actually).  You could actually split overpopulated nodes and merge underpopulated ones.

 

2. Obligation To Grind

I can also see what you mean by this, but I do not believe it to be as much of a threat as you might believe.  Yes, grinding is imperative, but this is a FTP dungeon crawler.  Grinding, so long as it's fun, is fine.  I believe that now that players have a solid goal to work towards, they'll be more encouraged by the whole prospect and find it more fun.  You know you become more powerful as you grind, rather than the current system of "you might if RNG loves you."

 

3. Punishment of FTP Players

I disagree here.  Simply put, players can get sell things for platinum now and will grind if given a reason.  Before I became a Hunter, I hit Mastery 3 (before shared affinity) just because I had nothing else to do.  Even after shared affinity, I didn't bother leveling up anything new because I had no desire to.  Then U8 hit and I became a Hunter, went to Mastery 8 (I really wanted the Acrid) where I remained until U10.  Now I'm a Master and Mastery 12.  The point is, I got to 3 without any reason whatsoever.  I had no desire to use the then-OP Hek.  I was content with my Pro'd Burston (yes, I was one of those people).  Had you been tying my power level to it though, you can bet that I would have focused more on it and ranked up much faster.  It's not that I had anything against grinding or couldn't.  I just had zero incentive to at the time.  In fact, the moment that Mastery did become connected to my power level in that it was holding me back from Acrid, I worked my way through that as quickly as possible and found one of my favorite weapons (my Dera) along the way.  Sure, I was a paying player by then, but that really just meant that I kept the weapons after maxing them.

 

4. Complexity

Once again, I see your point, but it is only so complex because I'm trying to cover all the corner cases in a theorycrafting discussion.  To see a quick summary, take a look at the OP (which oddly enough is quoting a previous version of this post, but this post no longer contains the quoted information because it's in the OP lol).  That's really all there is to it.  The combination of seeing this tree in-game and being able to mouse over things to see how far along you are (in addition to an infodump in the codex) will mean new players shouldn't have any trouble understanding it, especially once they start using it.  Also, if they try to equip/fuse Serration before they're allowed, just have a little popup that says "Rifle Proficiency 2 Required."  Then, naturally, they'd go look to see what it takes to get to Rifle Proficiency 2 if they're not already aware.  I really don't see this causing much confusion for new players at all.

 

 

" If there are fewer weapons, you could just give rewards sooner. Also, recall that Serration is a rank 10 mod while Point Blank is much smaller, allowing it to fit with the smaller pool of shotguns. It really is a trivial matter to rebalance power."

 

Freaking love this idea. Okay, that sounds really viable. But the sooner-rewards thing, it kind of makes me wonder what happens in a couple more months, when about ten, twenty over weapons are added? The details of scaling is giving me a headache, though, so I'll just say I have a good feeling about this, and leave the details to when we wish to focus on the topic.

 

 

 

 

"3. Punishment of FTP Players"

"The point is, I got to 3 without any reason whatsoever. I had no desire to use the then-OP Hek. I was content with my Pro'd Burston (yes, I was one of those people). "

 

That makes two of us. I just recently decided to rank up beyond 4 or 5 myself, and never used anything other than my Latron and Burston.

 

This point is tied intimately with your second topic, I believe. You make a fine point in that grind can be fun and goal-driven. In fact, I like that idea. It really does give meaning to travelling up the power ladder, when there's a carrot at the end of this very long stick. I think the levels are pretty decently paced in terms of difficulty, at the moment, and if players wish to challenge themselves by going to very strong planets before the recommended rank, then that is up to them as well. Pretty neat.

 

And as for your final topic, a good point as well. Visual representation is always very helpful. Perhaps the recommendation from my thread would be a plausible solution as well? Considering that now these mods are sure-obtainable and are tied to your proficiency.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

" If there are fewer weapons, you could just give rewards sooner. Also, recall that Serration is a rank 10 mod while Point Blank is much smaller, allowing it to fit with the smaller pool of shotguns. It really is a trivial matter to rebalance power."

 

Freaking love this idea. Okay, that sounds really viable. But the sooner-rewards thing, it kind of makes me wonder what happens in a couple more months, when about ten, twenty over weapons are added? The details of scaling is giving me a headache, though, so I'll just say I have a good feeling about this, and leave the details to when we wish to focus on the topic.

You just re-adjust as necessary.  Grandfather people in as needed.

[Calayne]

You just re-adjust as necessary.  Grandfather people in as needed.

 

Yeah, they'll eventually have to run out of weapons to chuck into the game, huh? :P

 

That is an interesting thought, though. Will they still keep updating with weapons and stuff? Because if the goal posts move, then it's going to be like a rising and ebbing tide, with people standing on this beach in all places sometimes getting wet at one point, and at other times, staying dry.

 

Perhaps there may be a more stable solution for this? Perhaps a minimum/maximum cap, or what have you, that after a certain point just won't matter anymore. If the least numerous category already has a good selection of weapons, then perhaps that will be a good cap. Or we could kind of just do it like our Achievements.

[notionphil]

3. Elemental mods now merely convert a percentage of all damage that is not that element into that element.

 

If nothing else in this thread is even considered, this suggestion alone will vastly improve the game AND reset DE's core mentality when creating mods.

 

DE please stop adding +damage, +multishot +crit to anything. Remove it from EVERYTHING besides serration and multishot and then we have a blank slate to actually create a build on.

 

No new mods (that stack with serration/multi) needs straight +damage. Ever.

 

Situational +'s are fine. +damage to downed targets. +crit from behind. +multishot when parkouring. Awesome, you just made a build.

 

Giving our 'customizations' extra damage was a horrific idea, it simply made them required.

 

 

I think mods are a lost cause ever since Corrupted mods came along. Still, I hope that DE will do something about balance eventually. Proficiencies would go a long way to helping that.

 

A solution to build diversity:

 

Build Diversity Made Easy - Variant Families of Key Mods like Redirection, Serration etc with differing effects; they don't stack with eachother.

[LordofTibera]

-I've been thinking that DE isn't looking for a long-term investment here.

 

-They don't WANT a quality product despite what may have been said in the past. What DE wants is to release half-finished products and sell all of it for real world money while under the perpetual guise of a "beta." You want proof? Just look at the business model of practically everything being sold for plat, the new trading of Prime and Void components, and the complete RNG and time walls that every single aspect of this game hides behind. I'm sure I don't need to say anything else on that--despite what anyone says, we KNOW this to be true.

 

-While this game has the beta tag on it, they can get away with releasing Zephyrs and Jat Kittags with screwed up properties because they don't have any obligation to FINISH anything! They can release Valkyr with lots of armor in a game where WF armor does virtually nothing! They can do all of this and more because in a year from now when this game is still in a beta and the game has 500 weapons and no way to balance it all because the core properties don't change, we can all enjoy using them on our Survival and Defense missions. MAYBE we'll get a new tileset to act as a backdrop to our mundane existence? Who knows?

 

-There's no love here, no obligation, it's all pointless! If you've spent one dollar on this game, DE's already won. They don't NEED you anymore. I won't act like a saint--I'm already guilty of it, and I'm NOT proud of this fact. DE gives new players JUST enough platinum to realize what it feels like to bypass the garbage RNG in this game or the time walls of building a blueprint so that buying more platinum becomes easier.

 

-DE can hide behind words like "we're working on endgame" and "Melee 2.0 end of the month" all they want, and while they may deliver on the latter, this is no way fixes any of the core problems with the game--merely a way to show off in a fancy trailer to prospective players how "fun" this game is while the truth is ugly and sickening.

 

-Why do I say all this? Because I'm sorry, OP, but DE's just not listening to you. Or me. Or anyone. I guess in some regards it's fine that they pull up their own pants and take charge of their game's development, but they're taking the game in a direction that doesn't have the consumer as the target.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If nothing else in this thread is even considered, this suggestion alone will vastly improve the game AND reset DE's core mentality when creating mods.

 

DE please stop adding +damage, +multishot +crit to anything. Remove it from EVERYTHING besides serration and multishot and then we have a blank slate to actually create a build on.

 

No new mods (that stack with serration/multi) needs straight +damage. Ever.

 

Situational +'s are fine. +damage to downed targets. +crit from behind. +multishot when parkouring. Awesome, you just made a build.

 

Giving our 'customizations' extra damage was a horrific idea, it simply made them required.

 

 

 

A solution to build diversity:

 

Build Diversity Made Easy - Variant Families of Key Mods like Redirection, Serration etc with differing effects; they don't stack with eachother.

Ironically, there was once a time I advocated adding more damage mods which would have secondary effects that would be utility as a way of implementing utility without sticking them in a walled garden of dedicated mod slots that so many people seem to like the idea of.  What I failed to account for at the time was the massive power spike it would lead to.  Ideally, a player with skill should be able to advance further than the average player of a given time period while an unskilled player should be able to grind a bit more to compensate.  It's like going to the Rock gym in Pokemon with only your starter.  If you chose the water type, you'll be fine.  If you chose Grass, it's going to be a whole lot harder to kill that Onyx so you'll level up more before going in.  Such a wide gap in power that results from so many combo damage/utility mods would discourage this ability for player skill to take a role.  Also, there's the fact that lower TTK > all which of course damage mods assist.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[http404error]

Thanks for the explanation and response, Volt. The Proficiency system is very complex in words, but when integrated visually (into the codex, maybe?) should be very intuitive for players. I do wonder if it would be viable to have various tiers sum when counting towards unlocks, rather than just taking the highest value. I feel the spirit of inspiration driving me to make a spreadsheet... be right back.

 

Sorry, must have overlooked the line on Potatoes. I do attempt to read your posts very thoroughly before commenting, but that one slipped past me.

 

I like notionphil's ideas and I think that if the damage types and their intentions are not changing drastically, then it's a definite improvement. I'll definitely start digging around for more of the forum feedback champions. You guys should form a committee or something.

[NikolaiLev]

Problem is, DE doesn't seem to really care about balance.  Everything's all over the place, it's never been mentioned in community hot topics, balance changes are never a part of changelogs, and what few changes occur are either sparse or just unnecessary (see: how Damage 2.0 nerfed the Flux Rifle and Spectra, with no compensatory buffs).