Digital Extremes Could Deliver So Much More

[Vaskadar]

I don't intend to sound like an apologist, but scope is a pretty major factor here. I feel that they need to rein in the scope of the game and shy away from this current focus of 'more weapons' content, which isn't really major content, it's just minor DLC at this point. It devalues it, and the time spent playing the game overall is devalued.

I'm taking a break from Warframe until major positive changes have been made to the game's development. The grind burned me out, quite a bit. "Level this weapon to do this so you can do this." has been a major basis. I'm going to start being choosy with content instead of trying to collect everything. Instead, I'll focus on collecting Warframes. That's about all I have patience and time for, anymore.

The game has massive potential, but its growth is stunted by the lack of a clear focus. Melee 2.0 is a great thing for the game, I'd imagine, but the lack of consistent balance changes, and/or logical balance changes (which should be occurring very frequently in a beta), have been put off for too long.

There's a lot of content, but it's not as cohesive, or nearly as well put together as it could be. It's a mixed bag at this point. You have this awesome art style, awesome sound design, character design, and great level design, but it's sort of wasted on inconsistent difficulty, inconsistent balance, and inconsistent teamplay. Teamplay needs to be honed in. Balance needs to be honed in. Four-player co-op needs to be made more interesting without making it feel like numbers are just growing.

Inflation of numbers isn't the way the game should be headed.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Earthworm_Jim]

I can wager a pretty good guess as to why DE's pace is so slow.

 

1) Inter-office bureaucracy, and micromanagement.

 

2) Lack of communication between departments.

 

3) Poor production focus and guidelines.

 

4) Misplaced priorities.

 

In effect, it's not the skills that are missing from the development team. It's effective organization, cohesion, and management.

 

5) Despite being in beta for over a year now, DE isn't treating it like a beta.

 

I have segregated this point because it is a huge one. In a real big-boy beta, you do not try to release completely finished and balanced content. This is what you do if you are trying to use an open beta as an excuse for advertising or if you're trying to hunt for pre-orders. In a real big-boy beta, you want to release huge chunks of probably broken content to your testers, get their input on what needs to be changed or fixed, weigh that feedback with the intended development direction of the product, and then make the necessary changes at a later point. Part of the reason why DE isn't doing this is because so many other developers have perverted the idea of what a 'Beta test' really is. There is a reason the original term is 'Beta test' and not 'Beta'; the 'test' part of the title is the more important part of the two-word title.

 

Of course, there are two other reasons DE is treating the game like this:

 

6) A vocal part of their playerbase is seemingly ok with it.

 

7) Another part of their playerbase who has no business beta testing this game or any game trying to do a real beta test complain whenever something is broken.

 

Let's not mix complaints and critique. There are many people who give critique and feedback whenever something is broken. Then there are others who whine ineffectually about it. People in the #6 camp love to lump the people giving actual feedback about something into the whining category; I won't even get into why because that way lies a frustrating uphill battle. You can generally tell the difference between feedback and complaining by the level of critical thinking displayed, how well-reasoned the response is, and whether or not a potential solution is posed.

 

Of course some people in the #6 camp wouldn't know critical thinking if it hit them in the face, but again; frustrating uphill battle.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Earthworm_Jim

[Cemges]

Are all those other games stated were self published? Just asking to clarify, because that may give an important point. I also would like to point out that theres also a posibility that they have other projects, which divides their budget and work force.

[FrissonSeeker]

Are all those other games stated were self published? Just asking to clarify, because that may give an important point. I also would like to point out that theres also a posibility that they have other projects, which divides their budget and work force.

Bethesda and Zenimax are the "same" company. The Witcher is self-published. Metro LL was published by the now defunct THQ which went bankrupt during Metros production.

[Elvang]

Are all those other games stated were self published? Just asking to clarify, because that may give an important point. I also would like to point out that theres also a posibility that they have other projects, which divides their budget and work force.

They did have another project, which the post after yours mentions and the original post states; the number of people working on the other project and the number of people working on this one at the time was also stated.

[Lemonz]

I haven't really experienced 'massive grind walls' in this game, Zephyr aside. But I'm not really interested in Zephyr, so I don't know.

 

Also, exactly what 'pay-to-win' content are you talking about?

In order to understand where this is comming from, try looking at the game from a newbie's perspective. To those who have been playing for a while and have accquired a greater number of upgrades, these trials seem more trivial. To those starting off, they would have to overcome greater obstacles than they should really be forced to. Imagine a completely new player aiming to build Zephyr from scratch (this would include forming a dojo and completing the research). This seems like an insane amount of time needed just to unlock one character and therefore one portion of the gameplay content.

 

DE seem to have this habit where they balance things around the higher deviations of their playerbase. This doesn't seem to be the right decision in most cases.

 

"Pay to win" in this case describes the option in this game to pay in order to obtain access to content otherwise unachievable through normal gameplay progress. Prime access, for example. Ever seen a Mastery Rank 0 or 1 player don Ember Prime and that exclusive Prime access scarf? That player has effectively paid to win, as they now have an advantage (stat-wise, even) over non-paying players who will not be able to access such content without a solid amount of gameplay put into it. Of course, this mention was in reference to the Legendary Cores.

[Skynin]

Let me share then: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/183354-endgame-an-aspect/#entry2136101

Such a day. I guess that there is one big problem: Digital Extremes cares too much about user feedback (not about bugs and such, i'm about big things like endgame) in prejudice of the original Warframe concept and their own ideas.

Is this time to push the tempo?

[ihadanoffensiveusername]

wtf, 200 employees, and they only attract 15k players.........................

 

 

seriously, does half of them do nothing all day?

[ihadanoffensiveusername]

wtf, 200 employees, and they only attract 15k players.........................

 

 

seriously, does half of them do nothing all day?

 

Put this in perspective, dota 2, has 28, they release more content than anybody.

 

[Skynin]

That player has effectively paid to win, as they now have an advantage (stat-wise, even) over non-paying players who will not be able to access such content without a solid amount of gameplay put into it.

Advantage? Do they even compete with each other? Nonsense.

 

 

wtf, 200 employees, and they only attract 15k players.........................

 

 

seriously, does half of them do nothing all day?

 

You can't know what are they doing right now and what they are planning to do. Actually, they're planning a lot.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Skynin

[Teorina]

I agree that weapons and frames are distractions and that the resources could be put to much better use. The problem is that DE have backed themselves into a corner. They currently have no endgame apart from grinding. If they stop putting out new grind, people stop playing so they can't fund development of anything. Hence so much is diverted to the grind.

[FrissonSeeker]

wtf, 200 employees, and they only attract 15k players.........................

 

 

seriously, does half of them do nothing all day?

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Digital-Extremes-Reviews-E238612.htm

The size of their cafeteria betrays their priorities. Also, you can see where Livestreams are held.

 

http://www.ratemyemployer.ca/Employers/DI/Digital-Extremes

^Taking a look at the dates of those review, most predate Warframe going into Closed Beta. One has to wonder. It's also amusing that the food benefits are one of the more lauded things about the company.

[Sanev_Khan]

In order to understand where this is comming from, try looking at the game from a newbie's perspective. To those who have been playing for a while and have accquired a greater number of upgrades, these trials seem more trivial. To those starting off, they would have to overcome greater obstacles than they should really be forced to.

 

Don't forget some essential mods are near impossible to get for newbies. Like Hornet Strike, which only drops from toxic ancients or void levels, or Split Chamber that you get from bosses, a very rare mob, or again from the void.

[FrissonSeeker]

Advantage? Do they even compete with each other? Nonsense.

Yeah, veteran players can rush and kill everything well out of exp range. But that is an entirely different problem that DE refuses to address. Also, it's not fun to play with players at "your level" who can do everything better than you. No amount of skill can overcome a cash shopper who can one shot enemies.

[Elvang]

Don't forget some essential mods are near impossible to get for newbies. Like Hornet Strike, which only drops from toxic ancients or void levels, or Split Chamber that you get from bosses, a very rare mob, or again from the void.

This is part of the anger over Legendary Cores. New players just don't have the resources or gear to effectively acquire the necessary ranks in essential mods such as those to make their warframes and weapons viable until they can acquire something better.

[Lemonz]

Advantage? Do they even compete with each other? Nonsense.

 

A good example of competition in this game is in Mobile Defense-type missions where players race around the map to try and gain the highest kill count.

[Vaskadar]

FrissonSeeker, on 21 Feb 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

Yeah, veteran players can rush and kill everything well out of exp range. But that is an entirely different problem that DE refuses to address. Also, it's not fun to play with players at "your level" who can do everything better than you. No amount of skill can overcome a cash shopper who can one shot enemies.

The game's difficulty tweaking should automatically adjust to conclave rating. Matchmaking should take conclave levels into consideration due to content being either too difficult, or too easy.

[Zakmonster]

In order to understand where this is comming from, try looking at the game from a newbie's perspective. To those who have been playing for a while and have accquired a greater number of upgrades, these trials seem more trivial. To those starting off, they would have to overcome greater obstacles than they should really be forced to. Imagine a completely new player aiming to build Zephyr from scratch (this would include forming a dojo and completing the research). This seems like an insane amount of time needed just to unlock one character and therefore one portion of the gameplay content.

 

DE seem to have this habit where they balance things around the higher deviations of their playerbase. This doesn't seem to be the right decision in most cases.

 

"Pay to win" in this case describes the option in this game to pay in order to obtain access to content otherwise unachievable through normal gameplay progress. Prime access, for example. Ever seen a Mastery Rank 0 or 1 player don Ember Prime and that exclusive Prime access scarf? That player has effectively paid to win, as they now have an advantage (stat-wise, even) over non-paying players who will not be able to access such content without a solid amount of gameplay put into it. Of course, this mention was in reference to the Legendary Cores.

 

Your points have merit. I didn't think about it in terms of a new player coming into the game, but there have been some decent discussion going on in the feedback forums about making the learning and gearing curve a bit easier for fresh players.

 

As for the pay-to-win thing, the term doesn't really apply. Mastery 1 player might have Ember Prime, but it doesn't mean he 'wins' anything, because there's nothing in this game to be 'won'. All he's done is pay to skip a grind, which is a fair thing to pay for.

 

I mean, it's not like DE have released any non-cosmetic content that can only be achieved through Platinum. Everything in the game that matters can be gotten by just spending some time playing the game.

[Zakmonster]

A good example of competition in this game is in Mobile Defense-type missions where players race around the map to try and gain the highest kill count.

 

This is a problem with the players, not the developers.

 

Getting the highest kill count in a mission doesn't do anything. At all. There are no leaderboards, no boosts, no e-peen achievements to be gotten.

 

Every time I see someone rushing about trying to nuke everything first, I just follow behind and soak up the XP. I don't fire my weapons, I don't do anything. I let him do all the work and if the pod/terminal gets destroyed because nobody was there defending it, then meh. I re-queue for the mission and hopefully don't get players who are idiots.

[Skynin]

Yeah, veteran players can rush and kill everything well out of exp range. But that is an entirely different problem that DE refuses to address. Also, it's not fun to play with players at "your level" who can do everything better than you. No amount of skill can overcome a cash shopper who can one shot enemies.

Not really a problem.

I'm buying only slots, Catalysts and cosmetics. I have huge arsenal, all the warframes and sentinels. Everything i build with my own hands. I still remember loot hunting, when even 1 Control Module were great treasure that makes my sun shine brighter. And you know what? That was great expirience. That was awesome and interesting.

Why should new player try to become stonger so hard, to move further so fast? Enjoy the gameplay, everything else will be yours in time.

Rush!

Rush!

Rush!

Why?

[JerryMouse13]

Another day another armchair developer...

 

Seriously people you do not know even half as much as you assume to. Unless you are actually a member of a developer studio, do not assume to know what it takes to make a game, and if you are then do not assume that you know what is happening behind the doors of another developer.

 

It's that simple, we are not in any position to pass accurate judgement on DE's development pace.

 

This entire thread adds nothing of any real value, all this does is make you look pretentious, and demanding.

[CY13ERPUNK]

OP makes valid points

i would personally rather compare DE/Warframe to games i think share more similar traits features with it (and/or games I think DE could take a page or two from)

City of Heroes/Villains (MMORPG progressively slow updates/development, but they did some really neat stuff that others have yet to copy) [probably closest atm to DE/Warframe's development timeline, ala slow but steady]

Path of Exile (GOLD STANDARD for F2P game developer IMHO, great story/lore, itemization, skills, etc)

Valdis Story (incredibly small team, but deep/fun combat/skill system, with uniquely challenging/different enemies, GREAT BOSSES)

Mass Effect (in theme, futuretech, etc)

and while i played a bunch of PSO, I really want DE/Warframe to shoot for much more than PSO/PSU achieved

[Lemonz]

Another day another armchair developer...

 

Seriously people you do not know even half as much as you assume to. Unless you are actually a member of a developer studio, do not assume to know what it takes to make a game, and if you are then do not assume that you know what is happening behind the doors of another developer.

 

It's that simple, we are not in any position to pass accurate judgement on DE's development pace.

 

This entire thread adds nothing of any real value, all this does is make you look pretentious, and demanding.

This thread does help to create a new perspective on things. There is active discussion here.

 

Please stick to the topic.

[FrissonSeeker]

OP makes valid points

i would personally rather compare DE/Warframe to games i think share more similar traits features with it (and/or games I think DE could take a page or two from)

City of Heroes/Villains (MMORPG progressively slow updates/development, but they did some really neat stuff that others have yet to copy) [probably closest atm to DE/Warframe's development timeline, ala slow but steady]

Path of Exile (GOLD STANDARD for F2P game developer IMHO, great story/lore, itemization, skills, etc)

Valdis Story (incredibly small team, but deep/fun combat/skill system, with uniquely challenging/different enemies, GREAT BOSSES)

Mass Effect (in theme, futuretech, etc)

and while i played a bunch of PSO, I really want DE/Warframe to shoot for much more than PSO/PSU achieved

I was looking to include Mass Effect but I can't find numbers for their studios. Thanks for mentiong PoE and CoH/V. I'm also going to include Dota2 in the OP after I get more info.

[StarNight17]

All games listed were 60$ games and do not release new content at all anymore. If they do you have to pay another some of cash.

 

DE keeps this going for the total price of FREE. If you waste money paying your way through this game and find it a bad experience.. Who is to blame? The devs or you?

 

I have around 200+ hours and have played since about u10. The only thing I find wrong is the pace of newer missions and lore.