Digital Extremes Could Deliver So Much More

[FrissonSeeker]

All games listed were 60$ games and do not release new content at all anymore. If they do you have to pay another some of cash.

 

DE keeps this going for the total price of FREE. If you waste money paying your way through this game and find it a bad experience.. Who is to blame? The devs or you?

 

I have around 200+ hours and have played since about u10. The only thing I find wrong is the pace of newer missions and lore.

The devs are to blame. The devs need to make a good experience for players. It's not a players job to find "fun" the developers must create an environment for such.

 

Also all those games can be purchased for less than the cost of the U12 bundle to put things in perspective.

[Magnus]

If you had played games like I've played, you would be grateful that they put out content at all. You can't really compare DE to other Devs just like that.

That's an awful point. This is what it translates to: "Be grateful they're adding guns that are the same as the last twenty or level sets that don't integrate well into the designed parkour movement of Warframes at all."

 

You don't have to settle, and you should definitely not be thankful for settling, either.

 

 

Another day another armchair developer...

 

Seriously people you do not know even half as much as you assume to. Unless you are actually a member of a developer studio, do not assume to know what it takes to make a game, and if you are then do not assume that you know what is happening behind the doors of another developer.

 

It's that simple, we are not in any position to pass accurate judgement on DE's development pace.

 

This entire thread adds nothing of any real value, all this does is make you look pretentious, and demanding.

If the forums still had downvotes, odds are your post would be marked as spam.

 

The OP provides examples of developers working at different paces. You are assuming now one's worked a programming job in their life on this forum. You are assuming that accurate comparisons cannot be made between developers based on numbers and work time to average out the work ethic.

 

These are all wrong assumptions and you've blatantly ignored OP. You are trying to take a high ground in an argument that only you've taken part in at this point and have gone off to fight straw men.

 

If you are not critical of a developer, they relax, and DE will simply continue doing what they are doing now. If you're fine with a subpar product, that's fine, but go be fine with it where people aren't trying to have an actual conversation. Your pretentious demanding of people having no thoughts for themselves is not welcome.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Extraxi

[Brahmastra]

Another long-time player who shares the same sentiment as the OP.

 

Have been very unsatisfied with DE as of late, especially after hearing about how they had actively tried to destroy one of the largest and greatest clans in their own game. This, coupled with the constant pumping out of content locked behind massive grind walls and the sudden introduction of what seems to be future "pay to win" content has turned this experience very sour.

 

As it stands to be, melee 2.0 and how it will unfold seems like it will be the breaking point for this game.

this..

freaking this.

[Noble_Cactus]

As of 2012, Grinding Gear Games had 18 workers.

 

18.

 

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/28458

 

If there was one example of a small but efficient and dedicated team to cherrypick, it would be them. PoE receives constant updates, many of which are based off of player feedback and direct communication with those players. Summoning too weak at endgame? Fans expressed their concerns on the forums, staff responded, and now we have some pretty darn nifty spells with which we can support our minions.

 

Good read, too.

 

I think EWJ might have hit the nail on the head. Lofty assumptions to make? Perhaps. But after talking with somebody who worked on the XCOM team as a concept artist (which, if I recall correctly, only had about 40-50 people working on the project), the biggest point to take away was that the crux of any project is cohesion. We didn't go into much detail but the impression I got was that everyone on the team maintained a constant dialogue with each other, readily passing around ideas for review. Everyone got to know one another and not only was the project fun to work on, but it also became a superb game. Now I'm sure the staff we see on stream are all good friends with each other, but when you have around 200 other employees working on the project at the same time, and they produce the game we're playing today, I'd imagine a lot of ideas get lost in translation from one department to another.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[JerryMouse13]

 

This thread does help to create a new perspective on things. There is active discussion here.

 

Please stick to the topic.

 

what perspective? What topic?

 

We are not in any position to tell DE how to manage their company.

 

Unless you think that a bunch of random's from across the internet can better manage a company based off of intermediary information, and that the company in question can actually learn something from them, I really don't see any point to this thread other than more venting.

[StarNight17]

The devs are to blame. The devs need to make a good experience for players. It's not a players job to find "fun" the developers must create an environment for such.

 

Also all those games can be purchased for less than the cost of the U12 bundle to put things in perspective.

You completely missed the point of Free and then paying for the update.

The experience is fun for me simply because it is free and I have to pay nothing for it. I can see if you pay for it and arent satisfied because of throwing money at the screen..

 

I'm pretty sure buying something in this game shouldnt then be justified of give me the experience now. It is there as an option to purchase... not a mandatory thing.

 

I paid a total of 0$ during U12 if that puts things into perspective, and have everything it includes.

[tmtke]

There is another thing to consider, which is actually to put meaningful lore and endgame into the game AND retain replayability. On the lore part, it's mostly backstory, so it can be done, and I think we will get it sooner or later, when the designers stitch together all the small story fragments.

 

On endgame, well. Let's imagine a huge, story driven, enjoyable event, which goes for... a week? ... a month? ... some months? How would you do that, when a lot of players will rush it, a lot of players will be perfectionist, just to name the two most common types?

 

The rushers will finish it in the fraction of time than the others, and will whine on forums for more content. The perfectionists will take their time, and there is even a chance that some of them can't finish everything, so they'll come to the forums to whine about this.

 

Also, if you create and endgame, you have to create one for middle and low level players, because they also'd like a content, not just grind and item leveling.

 

I think, personally, DE tries to create a metagame instead, which is soooo much harder than the story driven, (mostly) single player narratives the OP cited here. Those are great games, some of them even has the sandbox feeling that you can do whatever you want.

 

Just some note on Fallout 3, which is applicable to most of single player games I played recently (PC or PS3, whatever): do you know what I hated the most? On finishing the game, there was the end, and that ending prevented me to do the unfinished side quests. I play games like Fallout for the story, and if I had to replay the whole thing, just to finish the sidequest, I got angry.

 

And I don't want Warframe to become a single player experience. DE will learn the way to make this game replayable, or will fail miserably. There is no other way. They have to do it, because if the replies in this thread are true, this is their only chance to survive.

[Zakmonster]

The devs are to blame. The devs need to make a good experience for players. It's not a players job to find "fun" the developers must create an environment for such.

 

Also all those games can be purchased for less than the cost of the U12 bundle to put things in perspective.

 

Oh, that makes so much sense, since you can't get anything from u12 without buying the bundle.

 

 

 

Oh wait.

 

Also, CoH/V had a terrible update schedule early on. Also it had subscription. And even after f2p, a lot of new content had to be purchased and couldn't be 'grinded' for, the same way you can do for Warframe.

[Serpitus]

Another day another armchair developer...

 

Seriously people you do not know even half as much as you assume to. Unless you are actually a member of a developer studio, do not assume to know what it takes to make a game, and if you are then do not assume that you know what is happening behind the doors of another developer.

 

It's that simple, we are not in any position to pass accurate judgement on DE's development pace.

 

This entire thread adds nothing of any real value, all this does is make you look pretentious, and demanding.

we have every right to criticize. and all critique is valid, no matter how obsurd. Restaurants have their chefs cook meals behind closed doors, but if it take an hour to cook a steak the customer has every right to complain. what's more is if a menu says you can get a well done steak and you order the well done steak you are allowed to complain when the chef sends out a steak so rare it's still chewing it's cud.

[Magnus]

what perspective? What topic?

 

We are not in any position to tell DE how to manage their company.

 

Unless you think that a bunch of random's from across the internet can better manage a company based off of intermediary information, and that the company in question can actually learn something from them, I really don't see any point to this thread other than more venting.

 

This is not telling DE how to manage themselves. Read the OP. You've made it clear you haven't.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Extraxi

[FrissonSeeker]

As of 2012, Grinding Gear Games had 18 workers.

 

18.

 

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/28458

 

If there was one example of a small but efficient and dedicated team to cherrypick, it would be them. PoE receives constant updates, many of which are based off of player feedback and direct communication with those players. Summoning too weak at endgame? Fans expressed their concerns on the forums, staff responded, and now we have some pretty darn nifty spells with which we can support our minions.

 

Good read, too.

 

I think EWJ might have hit the nail on the head. Lofty assumptions to make? Perhaps. But after talking with somebody who worked on the XCOM team as a concept artist (which, if I recall correctly, only had about 40-50 people working on the project), the biggest point to take away was that the crux of any project is cohesion. We didn't go into much detail but the impression I got was that everyone on the team maintained a constant dialogue with each other, readily passing around ideas for review. Everyone got to know one another and not only was the project fun to work on, but it also became a superb game.

Haha, you beat me to it, despite my edit, I'll add a link to your post.

[Lemonz]

All games listed were 60$ games and do not release new content at all anymore. If they do you have to pay another some of cash.

 

DE keeps this going for the total price of FREE. If you waste money paying your way through this game and find it a bad experience.. Who is to blame? The devs or you?

 

I have around 200+ hours and have played since about u10. The only thing I find wrong is the pace of newer missions and lore.

 

Been playing for almost one thousand hours. What makes our experiences and opinions on this game so different?

 

 

what perspective? What topic?

 

We are not in any position to tell DE how to manage their company.

 

Unless you think that a bunch of random's from across the internet can better manage a company based off of intermediary information, and that the company in question can actually learn something from them, I really don't see any point to this thread other than more venting.

 

It could also be said that you are in no position to tell anyone how to conduct discussion in a thread. Don't try to start a flame war.

[Noble_Cactus]

 

 

 

what perspective? What topic?

 

We are not in any position to tell DE how to manage their company.

 

Unless you think that a bunch of random's from across the internet can better manage a company based off of intermediary information, and that the company in question can actually learn something from them, I really don't see any point to this thread other than more venting.

 

 

I think your perception is skewed. Nobody's claiming that they can manage the WF team better than DE can. We are questioning DE's work efficiency by comparing Warframe to the works of smaller development teams that produced highly enjoyable games.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Tyflos]

DE, please. Hear us out. We want your game, and consequently, our game, to be good. Keep that in mind as you read through all of these posts, and any similar ones in the future.

 

I love certain elements of Warframe so, so much. But god damn, I'm what - 300, 400 hours in? I can't even tell. 100 hours without a significant difference. Think about how many other content-dense games you could FINISH in that time. That's four 24h days of my life. The difference 100 hours made was mostly contained from gathering materials for items, making those items, then grinding them to 30 while gathering materials to make the next item.

 

Updates are currently focused on perpetuating that cycle. Another, another, and another weapon. They aren't bad - if you can continue to make them unique, diverse, and able to hold their own instead of being too unbalanced to be practical. The problem is that, in this "beta" of a game, we are slowly being pushed weapons and not much else. It's like a life support capsule -  a little pop that keeps you going for a small time. But it doesn't even affect most people, because most people don't have all the weapons such that they go straight for new releases.

 

The people that do are at endgame, and have nothing else to do. The start of the game is tough because newbies haven't been able to grind till they are able to hold themselves up reasonably well. We need VARIETY. At least more interesting maps like Earth, where it FEELS different fight on. More game mods with less predictable outcomes and performances - and changing the objective mid-mission doesn't count for "less predictable."

 

We know how we're going to play according to what we bring into the mission. Our teammates don't even matter that much. The trailers show a great degree of cooperation, but gameplay is less like a synchronized team of elites and more like a set of whirlwinds tearing through each room, leaving body parts and ammo boxes strewn about. Sure, you can cooperate, if you have a coordinated team that agrees to. But why would you? It just makes you slower. And in this eternal grind, going as fast as possible makes it bearable enough to... keep grinding, and try to squeeze out our own fun in the meantime.

 

Advanced cooperation should be emergent, and the fun resulting from it should slap you in the face. This behaviour should arise naturally from the game elements involved. Stealth games or games with stealth sections, for example, naturally create a large degree of new and interesting situations that teams figure out solutions for as they go along. Games keep themselves alive when you have to synthesize new tactics and adapt. It's what makes us human. Otherwise, we're not dissimilar to MMO bots used for farming.

 

Isn't that a terrible thought?

 

No matter how many people you have, the right motivation and coordination produces amazing results. If this is truly a beta, experiment with it. So many potential ideas should be flourishing that we should be given them to test out and give feedback to. It feels like a slow one-way trickle, and people are steadily going to leave because of it. I don't want to have to leave. I want to keep playing. But, I want 100 hours to be worth more than a daze I can't remember.

[Zakmonster]

As of 2012, Grinding Gear Games had 18 workers.

 

18.

 

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/28458

 

If there was one example of a small but efficient and dedicated team to cherrypick, it would be them. PoE receives constant updates, many of which are based off of player feedback and direct communication with those players. Summoning too weak at endgame? Fans expressed their concerns on the forums, staff responded, and now we have some pretty darn nifty spells with which we can support our minions.

 

Good read, too.

 

I think EWJ might have hit the nail on the head. Lofty assumptions to make? Perhaps. But after talking with somebody who worked on the XCOM team as a concept artist (which, if I recall correctly, only had about 40-50 people working on the project), the biggest point to take away was that the crux of any project is cohesion. We didn't go into much detail but the impression I got was that everyone on the team maintained a constant dialogue with each other, readily passing around ideas for review. Everyone got to know one another and not only was the project fun to work on, but it also became a superb game.

 

Grinding Gear is a great example of a small studio done superbly well, but they also created a vastly different game. There are a lot of resources DE has to put into the game that GG didn't have to - motion capture and animations being one of the principal factors. Also, the engine required to create a third person shooter and a top-down Diablo clone (what are those kind of games called?) is also very different, which factors into the manhours required to develop the game.

 

As for Mass Effect, Bioware is huge developer with EA throwing tons of money at them. You also had to buy ME3 to even start playing the Multiplayer, and the content updates in the MP were also pretty much the same as in Warframe - classes, weapons, maps. A fourth faction was released very much later on and the game had a solid foundation of TWO previous games to draw on.

[JerryMouse13]

This is not telling DE how to manage themselves. Read the OP. You've made it clear you haven't.

 

I have, and what I'm getting from it is that OP seems to think that it is possible to extrapolate what the productivity of one studio should be, from entirely different studios, that produced wildly different products.

[Zakmonster]

I have, and what I'm getting from it is that OP seems to think that it is possible to extrapolate what the productivity of one studio should be, from entirely different studios, that produced wildly different products.

 

QFE.

[FrissonSeeker]

I have, and what I'm getting from it is that OP seems to think that it is possible to extrapolate what the productivity of one studio should be, from entirely different studios, that produced wildly different products.

Yes, it is hard to compare apples to similarly shaped fruit. However, investors and developers do this all the time. How do you think they devise budgets?

 

Also all of your responses are detracting from the actual thread and I am starting to see you as someone inviting a flame war if not blatant spam.

[JerryMouse13]

I think your perception is skewed. Nobody's claiming that they can manage the WF team better than DE can. We are questioning DE's work efficiency by comparing Warframe to the works of smaller development teams that produced highly-enjoyable games.

 

I understood that, but the fact remains that you cannot make a logical comparison, due not only to the fact that all of the above games were produced by completely separate studios, but also were entirely different genres of games.

 

It is impossible to actually draw a fair comparison with the limited information we have.

[Noble_Cactus]

Grinding Gear is a great example of a small studio done superbly well, but they also created a vastly different game. There are a lot of resources DE has to put into the game that GG didn't have to - motion capture and animations being one of the principal factors. Also, the engine required to create a third person shooter and a top-down Diablo clone (what are those kind of games called?) is also very different, which factors into the manhours required to develop the game.

 

As for Mass Effect, Bioware is huge developer with EA throwing tons of money at them. You also had to buy ME3 to even start playing the Multiplayer, and the content updates in the MP were also pretty much the same as in Warframe - classes, weapons, maps. A fourth faction was released very much later on and the game had a solid foundation of TWO previous games to draw on.

 

Fair enough. GGG had a model to work off of (after all, they started off as a D2 mod). But, depending on how resources are distributed within the team, shouldn't a far larger team be able to accomplish feats of similar scale in their more ambitious game? Of course it's not nearly that simple in practice and we can't expect all companies to work the same, but doesn't that still raise the question of just -how- the WF team is distributing its resources, given the context DE is working in (a relatively-large team, large grants of money)?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[JerryMouse13]

Yes, it is hard to compare apples to similarly shaped fruit. However, investors and developers do this all the time. How do you think they devise budgets?

 

Also all of your responses are detracting from the actual thread and I am starting to see you as someone inviting a flame war if not blatant spam.

 

Investors, and developers also have more information to go off of than factoids looked up on the internet.

 

Unless you can actually get us a look at the expense report, or budgent for Digital Extremes we cannot make any form of logical assessment.

[Magnus]

I have, and what I'm getting from it is that OP seems to think that it is possible to extrapolate what the productivity of one studio should be, from entirely different studios, that produced wildly different products.

 

No, you have not, and I, as well as everyone else in this thread, will continue to treat you as though you haven't because you are making blatantly false assumptions to situations, as well as demanding people not discuss something that could result in Warframe becoming even slightly better, and "believe" that self improvement in a company should not be sought after.

 

The fact of the matter is, you're wrong because you refuse to educate yourself and read the OP. Other companies will set up a plan for how to approach a game, settle on things first instead of 'Oh, we'll do it later.' They get things ready for full release instead of having a game that they claim is in 'beta' for a year. Most companies are able to put out a more complete game, a game that is in fact loaded with more content, interaction, lore, and etc within the timeframe that DE has had, and you are ignoring this for this imaginary reason that "it's wrong to compare companies to each other."

 

That is the very origin of where you are wrong. You have to learn to accept that there are standards in businesses. Game development is, in fact, a business, and this methodology is highly frowned upon in general game development circles due to its criminal inefficiency. The vast quantities of time wasted making these junk weapons pop up every week could have been spent building on lore, immersion, quality, or the most important part: testing their own game.

 

Hell, I bet you think every feature currently in the game is intentional. You never know with how little DE actually plays their own game, that one thing you do that's real good, maybe something to do with Narrow Minded not having downsides on some skills, is suddenly gone one day because someone says how much they love the combo offhandedly.

 

But I digress: read the OP, then join the discussion, or please leave and stop flame baiting, otherwise you'll end up saying something blatantly ignorant like:

 

I understood that, but the fact remains that you cannot make a logical comparison, due not only to the fact that all of the above games were produced by completely separate studios, but also were entirely different genres of games.

 

It is impossible to actually draw a fair comparison with the limited information we have.

 

or

 

Investors, and developers also have more information to go off of than factoids looked up on the internet.

 

Unless you can actually get us a look at the expense report, or budgent for Digital Extremes we cannot make any form of logical assessment.

 

 

because it is very easy, and logically sound, to compare the content production verse company size equals work ethic, and it's also easy to get their expense reports, but that isn't as important when you know the company size times time elapsed etc etc.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Extraxi

[Zakmonster]

Fair enough. GGG had a model to work off of (after all, they started off as a D2 mod). But, depending on how resources are distributed within the team, shouldn't a far larger team be able to accomplish feats of similar scale in their more ambitious game? Of course it's not nearly that simple in practice and we can't expect all companies to work the same, but doesn't that still raise the question of just -how- the WF team is distributing its resources, given the context DE is working in (a relatively-large team, large grants of money)?

 

It is, but just because the company has a staff of 200, doesn't mean it has all 200 people working on this one game. For all we know, the Warframe team might just be 20 people, with the rest being distributed to other projects.

 

We have no actual details about the company other than random facts on the Internet, and can only come up with wild assumptions.

[harr0]

I was in the closed beta and looking back to that there was virtually nothing to do in thoughs days. So I went away for months came back to find a completely different beast had formed for the better. Clans, missions, bosses an actual farming structure and many more weapons and frames.

I think patience is the key with WF/DE

Once the new front-end has been implemented then I think I hope we will see more diverse missions and battles.

Creating video games isn't easy no matter how many people you have and one project can't be compared to another.

Gaming fatigue can ruin an experience really quickly take a break go play something else, do something else then come back months down the line renewed and ready for some more.

Just a thought.

[FrissonSeeker]

Investors, and developers also have more information to go off of than factoids looked up on the internet.

 

Unless you can actually get us a look at the expense report, or budgent for Digital Extremes we cannot make any form of logical assessment.

Yes we can. We can see the cost of the game, the size of the team, the development time and customer satisfaction/retention/critical reception.

Using PoE as an example. They used less money, time, and devs to release a game that is far better received in all capacities. At the end of the day, how "good" the game is, is what matters. Comparatively, DE have failed.

 

EDIT: To add, you are equally unqualified to provide your own assessment of the situation. You are just as much an armchair developer as I am. How about you take your own advice and stop talking what you clearly don't know about.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker