Digital Extremes Could Deliver So Much More

[Blowfist]

Are you seriously trying to compare the polish of Warframe to multiple critically acclaimed games?

 

 

 Also, I find it worrying that people conceive Warframe as polished when just yesterday I played with a Nova that glitched everyone into the skybox by just aiming up.

 

Have you even played fallout 3 or Skyrim recently?

 

Without downloading extensive patches and HD texture mods both games look awful.

There is thousands upon thousands of hours dedicated to funny glitches in Skyrim and to a lesser extent Fallout 3.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Blowfist

[FrissonSeeker]

Have you even played fallout 3 or Skyrim recently?

 

Without downloading extensive patches and HD texture mods both games look awful.

There is thousands upon thousands of hours dedicated to funny glitches in Skyrim and to a lesser extent Fallout 3.

Both games were far more than passable when they released(FO3 was almost 6 years ago) graphics wise. Let us not invite comparison of graphics lest I start sharing screenshots of DE stealing Bioshock 2 assets for their own games or the ridiculous physics that matches either Gamebryo engine game.

And don't even pretend Warframe isn't riddled with ridiculous gamebreaking bugs down to the very core gameplay of even MOVING and SHOOTING.

[Blowfist]

Both games were far more than passable when they released(FO3 was almost 6 years ago) graphics wise. Let us not invite comparison of graphics lest I start sharing screenshots of DE stealing Bioshock 2 assets for their own games or the ridiculous physics that matches either Gamebryo engine game.

And don't even pretend Warframe isn't riddled with ridiculous gamebreaking bugs down to the very core gameplay of even MOVING and SHOOTING.

 

1200 hours game play and I have no idea about these game breaking bugs you're talking about. The only one I know is equipping reflex guard and not being able to use primary/secondary weapons. Do you still even realize you continue to compare offline games to online games?

[aucran]

Have you even played fallout 3 or Skyrim recently?

 

Without downloading extensive patches and HD texture mods both games look awful.

There is thousands upon thousands of hours dedicated to funny glitches in Skyrim and to a lesser extent Fallout 3.

There are plenty of funny glitches in Warframe as well, we just do not have thousands of hours of content to make videos of them. 

On the Warframe Reddit, there is at least 1-2 screen shots a week of models showing up misplaced, or the wrong animations for the wrong weapons, headless frames, giant reflections in mirrors. This game is far from polished.

But! That's not important, minor glitches like that? Don't really hinder my game play at all, they are usually, funny, like you said.

 

The main argument here isn't the polish, its the pace of content being provided, buggy or not.

Edited February 21, 2014 by aucran

[FrissonSeeker]

1200 hours game play and I have no idea about these game breaking bugs you're talking about. The only one I know is equipping reflex guard and not being able to use primary/secondary weapons. Do you still even realize you continue to compare offline games to online games?

Falling through the map endlessly.

Doors closing on players pushing them out of the map.

Shotguns status procs don't work correctly.

Burst Weapons don't work correctly below 60 FPS.

Momentum on wallrunning being completely broken flinging Warframes off wildly in every direction.

U12 inviting more stability issues for players and constant crashes.

Strict NAT stopping online play.

If number of objects standing on a Tram with a defense pod is greater than X everything falls through so that player can't reach mods or enemies.

U12 added a new Firewall bug that prevents players from playing online.

 

There is an entire forum dedicated to bugs. What are you even talking about.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker

[Othergrunty]

I completely agree with these points. However, I am going to invite the comparison of Digital Extremes versus other comparable studios.

Digital Extremes has roughly 200 employees. As evidenced by their website:

"With over 200 of the industry’s most talented artists, designers and programmers, Digital Extremes works hard to make its employees the best they can be by providing a positive, purpose-filled work atmosphere that, in turn, drives creativity, innovation, and passion into our games."

http://www.digitalextremes.com/about

 

As much as 38 million dollars has gone towards the engine that powers Warframe(and Star Trek).

"Digital Extremes is investing nearly $36 million in the project, including a $2.5-million grant from the province."

http://news.ontario.ca/medt/en/2011/04/digital-extremes-plays-to-win-in-ontario.html

 

Going as back as far as 2011, Digital Extremes had over 120 employees

"Ontario is turning the corner and helping a London-based video game studio create 30 new jobs and protect 53 existing jobs, with more than 120 people currently working at the studio."

http://news.ontario.ca/medt/en/2011/04/digital-extremes-plays-to-win-in-ontario.html

 

Now, development of Warframe began in March of 2012.

"Development on Warframe started in earnest in March 2012, and a closed beta launched in October."

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/closing-digital-extreme-s-psychic-wound/1100-4555/

Steve Sinclair offhandedly mentioned that development started with roughly 50 people on Warframe while the rest of the studio was working on Star Trek which released April 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_%282013_video_game%29

 

This means between that for roughly 1 full year 120+ employees have been working on this game up too 200+ now.

 

 

 

Talking about Star Trek, Digital Extreme seems to have a sad history of mediocrity when it comes to the games they developed alone (which excludes Unreal). Let's see according to wikiepdia we have Pariah which is considered okay, we have Warpath which is considered okay but lacking, we have Dark Sector which was recieved okay, we have the Darkness II which was actualy considered good or great and we have Star Trek which was below average at best, dissapointing a lot of fans, created a lot of funny youtube videos about it's numerous hillarious bugs and hurt J.J.Abrams feelings.

 

Now if what you say is true than they did better with 50 people on Warframe which was more of a side project, than they did with possibly over 70 people on Star Trek which was an important project.

 

Currently Warframe seems to be Digital Extremes most promising game, being an original creation with a unique art style and being still relative fresh. Albeit the long "still in development time" aka "Open Beta" is hurting it's reputation (see it's metacritic score). So looking back at their past creations, i agree that they should really step up their game here to make this one a runner, especialy with the resources they allready put into it.

 

I really would love to see this game going places, instead of getting filled down under "mediocre".

Edited February 21, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Blowfist]

Here's an amazing fact. I don't work for DE, nor do I fanboy defend them. Somewhere amongst these posts you must've mistaken me for a representative of DE and expect me to post a response to all your little worrys and concerns.

P.S none of those are game breaking. They are minor issues.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Letter13

[sewens]

Good to see this thread's still alive.

 

If anything DE should be happy players are actively paying attention like this. Many games don't get the chance for attention.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

P.S none of those are game breaking. They are minor issues.

Falling through the map, doors being "closed" despite being open, or getting stuck in doors isn't gamebreaking? Then what the hell is? Sure seems game breaking when I fall off the map, or get stuck right above a "respawn" zone, or get stuck in a door and can't do anything any until the mission ends.

[DarkDestiny]

I would like to point out that you are comparing an MMO to a bunch of standalone games with little to no multiplayer support.

 

I would also like to point out that Warframe itself is very community driven. DE is constantly getting updates from the community to fine tune the game in the interests of everyone playing. Therefore things take longer to come out.

 

As for path of exile, you are looking at 2 completely different games. Path of Exile has a much smaller world and very little in terms of random tile sets. You are also looking at a game with less then half the amount of playable characters and customization that Warframe has.

 

Finally I would like to point out that the actual amount of people working on the game means very little in what content is produced. For example, lets look at tile sets. Tile sets require at least 2 groups of people to be created. They need the people who know how to design levels and they need people who work with the AI to set up the interactions between the tile and the AI. Neither of these groups work on the development of weapons(Some exceptions for the AI team) or frames or lore.

 

Everything comes down to who is working on what. The people who do the Tenno Reinforcements are not the same people who work on lore. They are not the same people who work on Levels or the people who work on AI. They may consult with the people in those departments but when it comes down to it, they don't have very much control and maybe not even the skills necessary to work on the other stuff. So its really easy to say DE should send more resources to work on this other stuff instead of this stuff, but the fact of the matter is those resources may not be applicable to other projects.

[FrissonSeeker]

P.S none of those are game breaking. They are minor issues.

Two of those bugs don't let you play online. So if online play is only minor, than comparing this game to single player only games is a fair comparison :D

[aucran]

Everything comes down to who is working on what. The people who do the Tenno Reinforcements are not the same people who work on lore. They are not the same people who work on Levels or the people who work on AI. They may consult with the people in those departments but when it comes down to it, they don't have very much control and maybe not even the skills necessary to work on the other stuff. So its really easy to say DE should send more resources to work on this other stuff instead of this stuff, but the fact of the matter is those resources may not be applicable to other projects.

 

I certainly hope they are working together. 

[Tankred]

I find it worry that some of my posts have disappeared, while the ones calling other users "full of raw ignorance" are left intact.

[Nod_Off]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

You mean these "promises".

 

I've attempted in the past to point out that these things have been "passed over for more weapons".

But than you get the DE apologist response of "well different people do different things" and "DE has only so many employees"

This thread was supposed to be in anticipation of that argument but people would continue arguing over semantics than look at the message.

DE has no excuse for releasing such poor content.

Exactly! Not only have they been passed over for more weapons, which at this point are not needed. But they will not even respond regarding these things....

 

And you have no basis to be making an assertion on what the minimal quality content that they should be producing is.

 

Even if you did it begs the follow up question, what do you think we can do to change it?

 

Because from where I'm sitting we have no standing with which to influence the internal workings of DE, which renders this a non-issue. You'd be better off going into the feed back forums, and focusing on something there because we actually have influence there.

 

We are the player base and as such have a say in the matter. Lest they want to forgo being paid by us... You speak with your money and your words. 

As someone who played during the CLOSED BETA, and played a large part in what you now have, i.e. Dojo's, and Zen Gardens, I remember when DE actually listened to the player based and made changes based on our persepctives and desires. That is no longer the case, and your attitude on the matter will only perpetuate the problem...

The whole; "We/you have no say because we do not work there, who do you think you are?!", mentality is disgusting. 

 

Edited February 22, 2014 by Zackai

[SilverBones]

The fastest way to getting a discussion locked is by moving out of civil, on-topic discussion.

 

Some good points have been made here and need to be discussed. Resorting to personal insults is not the way to continue such a discussion.

 

Keep it clean.

[Silvershadow66]

So, are we unable to compare FTP to FTP games now? Or do we have to compare psuedo MMO, scfi, "space ninja", TPS's to psuedo MMO, scfi, "space ninja", TPS's?

 

And here's the thing, WF is likened to Diablo in the fact you run "dungeon" instances for loot, and while it's not perfect, it's hard to get a perfect match like you seem to expect.

 

Compare games in terms of what they deliver to the player? Yes. Compare their FTP Models? Yes. Compare development effort and complexity while having no accurate knowledge of either? No.

 

If anyone wants to make a valid comparison on the latter basis they need to pick a game with a similar graphics approach and level and a similar degree of complexity.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Silvershadow66

[Silvershadow66]

Yeah, that doesn't excuse DE from using such a terrible system. There are plenty of F2P alternatives that don't rely on poor F2P choices. DE should be held to a higher standard not just to make a  "minimum viable product". Because the latter seems to be a fairly common attitude on this forum.

 

Well first you will have to justify the claim that limiting "inventory" size (something that a huge majority of games do) is a poor choice and that charging to expand it in an F2P game is also a poor choice.

 

More slots is a convenience, they are one of the cheapest items on the market and people should expect to pay for convenience if they are not paying for the game.

 

 

 There is always a way around the parkour tilesets.

 

There is a very good reason for that, lots of players don't particularly like Parkour, it would have been a bad decision by DE to limit their customer base when they chose F2P, which relies on reaching a large customer base.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Silvershadow66

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Compare games in terms of what they deliver to the player? Yes. Compare their FTP Models? Yes. Compare development effort and complexity while having no accurate knowledge of either? No.

 

If anyone wants to make a valid comparison on the latter basis they need to pick a game with a similar graphics approach and level and a similar degree of complexity.

Alright, Metro: Last Light. The game is big, graphically stunning, fun, weapons feel good. I'm sure you read the articles that were linked on what conditions they had.

 

Witcher 2 (mostly) open world game, good combat system (imo), varied system of potions/spells/etc, ALSO pretty good graphically (for the time at the very least)

 

Skyrim: Big, decent graphically (not the best, not the worst by any stretch), widely lauded as GOTY.

 

I fail to see how any of those are "bad" comparisons other than "But they're not online games!" So what? We're comparing what they deliver to the player, not the business model.

Edited February 22, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Silvershadow66]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

You mean these "promises".

 

 

Almost none of these were promised, and DE certainly did not put guaranteed delivery dates on them.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Almost none of these were promised, and DE certainly did not put guaranteed delivery dates on them.

However they also haven't mentioned anything on most of the stuff there either in any sort of detail.

 

Clan wars? Clan Alerts? Clan v Clan? All of that stuff was in the first what, 7-8 livestreams and they're finally mentioning it again?

[dubignou81]

 

I fail to see how any of those are "bad" comparisons other than "But they're not online games!" So what? We're comparing what they deliver to the player, not the business model.

 

 

Note, those games were made by companies that had

 

a) fund secured so they could plan ahead long before what they wanted according to their ambitions

b) they are not free to play, so production timesheets are not the same, you don't see hotfixes entering in production cost, bug fixing is done at the end

 

Warframe on the other hand was a risky bet by Digital Extremes. They decided to self fund it because nobody would believe in it.

 

Don't think everything was always rosy for DE, in fact they had to part ways with very talented developpers ( http://www.lfpress.com/2013/02/05/21-jobs-cut-less-than-two-years-after-firm-got-25m-job-creation-grant )

[Bibliothekar]

There is always a way around the parkour tilesets.

Just wait for it, Parkour 2.0 will come and abolish all those staircases to circumvent wallrunning. June 2030, I guess.

[Silvershadow66]

Skyrim: Big, decent graphically (not the best, not the worst by any stretch), widely lauded as GOTY.

 

I fail to see how any of those are "bad" comparisons other than "But they're not online games!" So what? We're comparing what they deliver to the player, not the business model.

 

Skyrim: A 100 strong Development team working for 3 years (so slightly larger than that when you count the staff outside development). It launched with a wide variety of technical issues. Its first DLC (admitedly larger than any single Warframe Update) took 7 Months to arrive, it had 5 official bug fix patches that spanned 15 months.

 

And no, the OP was comparing the business model (in terms of developer focus and delivery rate).

[Nod_Off]

I feel like this is getting off topic with all of the arguing about which game to compare it to... 

Edited February 22, 2014 by Zackai

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Skyrim: A 100 strong Development team working for 3 years (so slightly larger than that when you count the staff outside development). It launched with a wide variety of technical issues. Its first DLC (admitedly larger than any single Warframe Update) took 7 Months to arrive, it had 5 official bug fix patches that spanned 15 months.

Yup, and WF is chock full of it's own bugs too, some of which also took months to fix (Wyrm's CD anyone?)

 

And no, the OP was comparing the business model (in terms of developer focus and delivery rate).

No, he was comparing what they delivered.

 

 

I feel like this is getting off topic with all of the arguing about which game to compare it to... 

+1 Back on topic: DE still needs to get a coherent plan other than "We'll deal with stuff as it comes up." If they want to overhaul things, they need to make a plan how to do so, and in what order.