(Discussion) Melee 2.0's Effect On Valkyr

[Ruriko]

My fellow Tenno,

The purpose of this thread is to discuss how the upcoming Melee 2.0 will affect Valkyr. Some of you may feel that this point is confusing or below notice, but as someone who has taken a very strong liking to Valkyr, it is something worth talking about.

Melee 2.0 is going to bring a significant change to how melee weapons are used in game. Stances will change the attack pattern (Normal vs Noble vs Agile). Charged Attacks can be chained together. Melee weapons can now be used as active weapons instead of having their own button trigger. Each of these things means the way players utilize Valkyr will change significantly, as will be the case with other frames as well. However, with Valkyr's design being about being the absolute, crushing bruiser, it is easy to become curious about what Melee 2.0 means to this particular Frame.

Before I say any more, I want to talk about Hysteria. This ability replaces all of Valkyr's attacks with melee attacks. She can't perform charged attacks, gains incredibly high melee strikes, a large Ground Slam on jump attacks, and as an additional bonus, its damage is vastly increased by damage mods on your weapon (Elemental Mods not included) and both the critical hit rate and critical damage modifier of your weapon as well. Currently, all of Valkyr's attacks are modeled on the various punching weapons (Furax/Ankyros).

I raise this discussion to talk about a few specific things.

1. How will Melee 2.0 change Hysteria?

I think it is almost certain that how Hysteria works is about to change. Melee 2.0 isn't fully understood, but it sounds like that you will not be able to just spam the melee attack button anymore. Melee weapons will now be equipped and controlled with the Fire and Secondary Fire buttons. Since the changes in Melee 2.0 allows players to chain together Regular and Charged attacks for a Risk-Reward sort of deal, it is safe to assume that combat models for Furax/Ankyros will change to suit this. However, Valkyr can't charge melee attacks during Hysteria. What can we expect from that secondary fire then?

2. Will the difference stances (Regular/Noble/Agile) change the combat pattern for Hysteria?

In the previous few discussions regarding Melee 2.0, DE explained that these stances will have more of an effect than just making your Warframe look cooler when they are standing idle (Admittedly, who stands idle in this game?). It has been hinted that these stances will change how your character utilizes Melee weapons. No one is really sure how this is going to work, but assuming that this is true, does this mean that Regular Valkyr will attack differently than Noble Valkyr and Agile Valkyr? What sorts of benefits/detriments will this have?

3. Will the changes to Melee damage make Hysteria far too powerful?

Since Hysteria makes Valkyr all about Melee combat, it is safe to assume that it will also be adjusted as part of the Melee 2.0 changes. DE has stated that Melee 2.0 is going to allow for fair use of Melee weapons against higher level enemies, something that is currently impossible to do viably. They've talked about how Melee damage will change to make it more effective and balanced option against enemies of all levels.

This is where I have some fears. It is already possible for a player to create an Immortal Valkyr capable of destroying the most powerful of opponents in seconds with no effort or risk. As evidenced on the Warframe Wiki, A Valkyr maximized for power and utilizing a high Critical Damage weapon (Such as Dual Cleavers, Dual Ichors, or Dual Zoren) is capable of doing upwards of 12,000 damage per hit before armor is factored into the equation. Adding in the 4x Bonus from affecting your enemy with Paralysis and it goes well beyond 48,000 damage. There are also videos on YouTube of Valkyrs utterly destroying Phorid in a matter of a couple of seconds when he is a very high level.

As I have said in previous threads, for me, the supreme upper limit for how powerful a skill is cannot exceed the power of Radial Javelin + Bullet Attractor, which is the single most powerful Hybrid Power Combo in the entire game. At a base, a target takes will be hit by 15 Javelins dealing 200% damage. Each Javelin deals 1000 damage, meaning this combo, as a base, deals 30,000 damage. Assuming the Excalibur has maximized the power of this attack, He will fire 37 Javelins dealing 2,440 damage each. This makes a grand total of 180,560 Damage.

Valkyr can literally pound on someone repeatedly for 10,000+ damage without any help from anyone else. This is based on the current system. Considering what DE intends to do with Melee 2.0, it means that Hysteria will also receive a damage boost, either actively (through direct adjustment of the ability) or passively (from how much extra damage is factored into her base damage from the changes to Melee weapons). Since we cannot know how much these weapons will be improved before Melee 2.0 is launched, if DE manages to deliver on their promise to make Melee a viable option against higher level enemies, it is a safe bet the changes will cause Valkyr's attacks to easily break 20,000 damage per hit (or 80,000 if Paralysis is used to gain that 4x Bonus).

You may think that 80,000 isn't close enough to 180,560 to matter, but remember that we don't know how much things will change. If melee weapons grow beyond double what they have now, it means that the difference between Hysteria potential and the 'Supreme Upper Limit' for damage becomes a lot smaller. Every 100% increase in the current melee damage reduces the difference between this skill and this Upper Limit dramatically. Also, bear in mind that any changes to melee damage is prior to mods, which means mods will provide vastly increased bonuses.

It is very possible that Melee 2.0 could make Hysteria game breaking.

What do you all think? How do you all feel about the current Valkyr? Do you feel that Melee 2.0 will make her shine, or will it make her so powerful that she needs a nerf or some kind of adjustment? I've explained my point my view as best I feel possible, but now this discussion is in your hands. Please offer any kind of input you can.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Ruriko

[JohnProdman]

There were dev posts on this topic in the past, not sure what to search for to show you but...

 

It was somewhere along the lines of 'Hysteria is a state, and will be treated as such. You will see no noticable difference with Hysteria after Melee 2.0'

 

They went on to discuss how they were modifying how Hysteria draws damage so it factored in the user's melee weapon and mods, which is how it is now. This was posted roughly a week before the last Valkyr ability/armor buff.

[Pure]

What if batman was really a cyborg?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Pure

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

I really just want Hysteria as it is, but with better animations and maybe some cool extra stuff you can do with it. It's good as it is, and still is high risk when considering you have to let enemies hit your fleshiness to get back into hysteria... which has gotten me killed a few times.

[XDeathCoreX]

Only pressing one button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over gets old realllllllly fast and now after this 2.0 it shall feel redundant, boring as hell and a huge step back from all the cool stuff 2.0 allows.

 

In other words, it shall feel like a dated melee system and makes you think you are equipping fists rather than your melee weapon and shall do more awesome things only to be SO disappointed that it's boring as hell compared to the new system.

 

plenty of other games have done this "Hysteria" thing better like transforming your skills or giving you plenty of new and flashy moves, etc. but with Hysteria, what you get is something boring in comparison that shall be a major disappointment with the new 2.0 system. people now see hysteria as a go to invulnerable skill especially in nightmare mode. if they got rid of that, no one would bother to use hysteria.

 

Now everyone shall only use hysteria for an energy, and continue to use better melee skills after it's over and they are going to want to end Hysteria early and thank god that it's over

 

So what does the future hold for the one skill tougher than iron skin?

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[WrothBog]

What if batman was really a cyborg?

i'm going with he is. not even an if

 

back on topic:

valkyr doing insane damage is mitigated by how many nova's you have spamming i win on the team.

 

controlling her damage OUTPUT is not really useful to anybody since she needs to actually get within claw range to do the damage.

 

her incoming damage is my problem with her. i love playing as valkyr but i've been doing so less often since i stopped using hysteria. without hysteria valkyr is any other frame. her entire point and purpose is to be in hysteria but in the end it's just impractical. without hysteria you're just any other frame with a gun or two and a sharp stick.

[Pure]

i'm going with he is. not even an if

 

back on topic:

valkyr doing insane damage is mitigated by how many nova's you have spamming i win on the team.

 

controlling her damage OUTPUT is not really useful to anybody since she needs to actually get within claw range to do the damage.

 

her incoming damage is my problem with her. i love playing as valkyr but i've been doing so less often since i stopped using hysteria. without hysteria valkyr is any other frame. her entire point and purpose is to be in hysteria but in the end it's just impractical. without hysteria you're just any other frame with a gun or two and a sharp stick.

 

yeah her kit needs to be buffed.  with hysteria there is no reason to even slot other abilities.  you can slot warframe to buff hysteria dps but thats about it.

 

i just found that all i could do was build the frame around hysteria.  if melee 2.0 is so good it makes warcry useful out of hysteria, it still has problems.  if you standard melee becomes stronger than hysteria then hysteria is just for god mode, but you can't click it off.

 

i find my self just shooting enemies 90% of the content then using hysteria for the 10% of high level content.

 

so melee 2.0 will make her ult useless or make it op.  the rest of her kit is still useless. since you have volt speed and useless whip attack, and a stun that does piss poor stealth attack damage.

[Cyrionn]

Ahem sorry to destroy your dreams on Valkyr but you far from the reality ! :D

 

First of all, except if they release the animation change at the same time they release melee 2.0, don't expect any change for Valkyr as long as they don't modify base weapon stats. I don't see why they would change Hysteria for melee2.0 to then change it again with the animation rework.

 

If they come out at the same time, which would be logic, then it would start to be interesting, but as long as they don't change the poor poor way Hysteria is working right now you will have a fancy animation for some poor damages.

 

 

3. Will the changes to Melee damage make Hysteria far too powerful?

Since Hysteria [...] increased bonuses.

Ok so you have no clue how Hysteria works right now, lemme tell you what damage you are doing in reality :

 

- here you can see how it is calculated now : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u12/?p=2049938

 

- which gives us :

 

Hysteria pre-U12, Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge:

300 x 1.75 x 2.29 x 1.18 = 1419 total damage before resistances ( 2837 / 5675 damage crits )

 

Current Hysteria, Jat Kitteg w/ Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike + Organ Shatter:

300 + 1.75 x 80 x 2.29 x ( 1 + 0.6 + 2.2 ) = 1518 total damage before resistances ( 4326 / 8652 damage crits )

 

Current Hysteria, Dual Ichor w/ Focus + Blind Rage + Steel Charge + Pressure Point + Spoiled Strike + Organ Shatter:

300 + 1.75 x 35 x 2.29 x ( 1 + 0.6 + 2.2 ) = 832 total damage before resistances ( 4742 / 9484 damage crits )

Thanks again to PsycloneM for his help when we tried to understand what were the changes with U12.

Don't forget that this comparison doesn't state about DPS but single hit damage because there is no critical chances taken in this formula. Old Hysteria used to have 50% crit chances, with a high damage melee weapon you can have 8% and with Dual Ichor 40%.

So according to this comparison old Hysteria is better than the new except if you use the trinity of ichors, zorens et cleavers.

 

So has you can see there no way Hysteria can reach 80k damage each hit, except if you manage to hit a leaper that is about to jump (they take damages x10).

 

 

So for me, whatever Melee2.0 gives to Hysteria and Valkyr, as long as the weapon statistics are taken in the formula that's an hardcore handicap for her because she to stick with the three same weapons at rank 30, no way to go and level your weapon if you plan on using Hysteria.

 

Until they do a proper rework of her plus the Hysteria animation rework this frame will just stay a funny catframe, but nothing that really deserves its place in a team.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Cyrionn

[Ruriko]

Cyrionn,

 

Not to sound provocative, but you say that I have no idea how Hysteria works then provide the math to justify my point. I appreciate the assist on that. I also noticed that you failed to see that I openly admitted that reaching upwards of 80k damage could be the result of Melee 2.0 if all they did was increase the raw damage of weapons to make them viable against high level enemies. Presently, no one knows what changes we are going to see with Melee weapons as a whole in Melee 2.0. Enemies might have their armor broken into two categories, one for ranged and one for melee. Who knows?

 

Just going with that final equation, let's assume a doubling and a tripling of the melee damage that exists on the Dual Ichor. We'll also assume critical damage modifier remains the same at 7.7

 

Double: 300 + 1.75 x 70 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1366 total damage per hit before resistance (10518 / 21036 damage criticals)

Triple: 300 + 1.75 x 105 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1899 total damage per hit before resistance (14622 / 29244 damage criticals)

 

Please note that both of these equations only factor two things: Valkyr's raw solo potential (First critical number) and Nova's Influence (Double damage, the 2nd critical number). This does not account for the 4x damage modifier from Paralysis, which I also see that the equations you posted also do not include. If you factor Paralysis in, before adding any damage it may contribute, Valkyr's damage becomes as follows.

 

Double: 1366 x 4 = 5464 Damage per hit before resistance (42072 / 84145 damage criticals)

Triple: 1899 x 4 = 7596 damage per hit before resistance (58489 / 116978 damage criticals)

 

Even assuming that Melee Damage doesn't change significantly, the equations you posted already confirm my point. With Paralysis included in the current build of Valkyr's Hysteria, her damage per hit is 3328 before any resistances are added (which makes her critical hits 25625, well above the 12000 damage threshold that I indicated in my original post. This is before any added influence, such as Nova's Molecular Prime, which boosts that to 51251 per hit)

 

What this shows is that the fear of just increased weapon damage actually does approach the numbers I suggested, even at just a doubling. All it requires is the influence of a Nova to accomplish. At a Tripling, it goes well beyond my predictions.

 

Thank you again for contributing the equations to the discussion.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Ruriko

[Pure]

Cyrionn,

 

Not to sound provocative, but you say that I have no idea how Hysteria works then provide the math to justify my point. I appreciate the assist on that. I also noticed that you failed to see that I openly admitted that reaching upwards of 80k damage could be the result of Melee 2.0 if all they did was increase the raw damage of weapons to make them viable against high level enemies. Presently, no one knows what changes we are going to see with Melee weapons as a whole in Melee 2.0. Enemies might have their armor broken into two categories, one for ranged and one for melee. Who knows?

 

Just going with that final equation, let's assume a doubling and a tripling of the melee damage that exists on the Dual Ichor. We'll also assume critical damage modifier remains the same at 7.7

 

Double: 300 + 1.75 x 70 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1366 total damage per hit before resistance (10518 / 21036 damage criticals)

Triple: 300 + 1.75 x 105 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1899 total damage per hit before resistance (14622 / 29244 damage criticals)

 

Please note that both of these equations only factor two things: Valkyr's raw solo potential (First critical number) and Nova's Influence (Double damage, the 2nd critical number). This does not account for the 4x damage modifier from Paralysis, which I also see that the equations you posted also do not include. If you factor Paralysis in, before adding any damage it may contribute, Valkyr's damage becomes as follows.

 

Double: 1366 x 4 = 5464 Damage per hit before resistance (42072 / 84145 damage criticals)

Triple: 1899 x 4 = 7596 damage per hit before resistance (58489 / 116978 damage criticals)

 

Even assuming that Melee Damage doesn't change significantly, the equations you posted already confirm my point. With Paralysis included in the current build of Valkyr's Hysteria, her damage per hit is 3328 before any resistances are added (which makes her critical hits 25625, well above the 12000 damage threshold that I indicated in my original post. This is before any added influence, such as Nova's Molecular Prime, which boosts that to 51251 per hit)

 

What this shows is that the fear of just increased weapon damage actually does approach the numbers I suggested, even at just a doubling. All it requires is the influence of a Nova to accomplish. At a Tripling, it goes well beyond my predictions.

 

Thank you again for contributing the equations to the discussion.

 

why are u showing damage with a nova lol.  unless they change hysterias short range, ranged weapons are still better.  2/3 of the factions just run away from you and shoot.  the range is so small you have to fight in their face.  with out aoe in hystera melee, loki and aoe ranged will do more damage.

 

without elements hystera can't adjust its damage.  it falls short against armor and gets no procs to help.  unless there is a really hard boss there is no reason for single target attacks.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Pure

[fatpig84]

I prefer if Hysteria is just a buffed up state rather than stealing my weapons.....

 

You know so I can go "bankai" and just go ax crazy with my Scindo while glowing, that will do mighty fine enough.

[Cyrionn]

Ok sorry I missed the extrapolation point. You know you could go even further and add Rhino Roar in there, and three other Steel Charges.

 

But still, even with the x3 damage to melee weapons base, the use of Paralysis exploit, and Mprime,...,  that's still single target and melee.

Now if the animation rework makes it AoE and fluid and fast yup, Valkyr will turn into an op beast and I would love that.

But I don't want to have expectations, that's the best way to be disappointed. :3

[PsycloneM]

Hysteria is supposed to receive an animation rework some time, although from what I understand, will be separate from Melee 2.0. 

 

 

@Cyrionn

 

You're welcome. However, take a look at this. It does not appear to be the case that Hysteria adopts whatever critical chance your melee weapon has. A base 30% seems to be added to your weapon's crit chance; Hysteria with Dual Ichor or Jat Kittag will have a crit chance around 70% and 38% respectively, not 40% and 8%.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider dealing 4x melee damage to stunned enemies from Paralysis to be an exploit, especially when there are plenty of other powers that allow you to do the same. 

 

 

@Ruriko

 

The second crit number is not indicative of Nova's influence with Molecular Prime. Valkyr is capable of producing both crit values on her own. Also, where are you getting 7.7x crit damage? Is that something you're observing, or did you reference that from the wiki? From what I'm seeing, Hysteria just adopts whatever crit damage your melee weapon has. So with Dual Ichor that's a maximum of 5.7x.

 

Regardless, the point still stands. Given the damage formula, if all melee weapons are to receive a damage boost for Melee 2.0 and if new mods are released that increase critical chance/damage and normal attack damage further, that could have a significant effect on Hysteria's final damage output. While it's a possibility, we won't know for sure until Melee 2.0 arrives.

[Ruriko]

PsycloneM,

 

Forgive my misunderstanding where the second damage number was coming from. I had assumed that because it was at 200% of the critical damage, it was likely the influence of an outside ability without digging into it much further. I appreciate you stepping forward to correct me on the matter.

 

The 7.7x is a misnomer caused by frequently changing information on the wiki. I had a chance to review the Hysteria page this morning and found that it had been clarified. As such, the numbers I indicated in my last post are completely flawed. I've revised my equations to reflect this, and again apologize for my poor understanding of the math involved with this particular ability.

 

Assuming double damage: 300 + 1.75 x 70 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1366 Damage per hit before resistance (7786 / 15572 damage per critical). Adding Paralysis increases the damage to 5465 damage per hit before resistance (31144 / 62289 damage per critical)

 

Assuming triple damage: 300 + 1.75 x 105 x 2.29 x 3.8 = 1899 damage per hit before resistance (10824 / 21648 damage per critical). Adding Paralysis increases the damage to 7596 damage per hit (43297 / 86594 damage per critical)

 

 

I think it is safe to say that we are in agreement that the possibility does exist for Melee 2.0 to make Hysteria an incredibly powerful skill, beyond where it stands now. As a few people have pointed out already, being limited to single target hits means that the skill required to reflect this potential is far higher than some people feel is workable. It does lead me to ask a question regarding the slam attack that Hysteria gains. Does the slam attack have its own independent damage or does it follow this damage formula as well? If it uses these same formulas, then the slam attack, even though only 5 meters in range, is actually very strong small AoE damage. Can you shed any insight to this, PsycloneM?

[PsycloneM]

No need to apologize. I was genuinely curious to know if that's what you were observing.

 

I've been talking to the wiki contributor who added the previous damage calculation. I changed the Hysteria article to match my observations (which I've reinforced with screenshots and calculations here in the forums), but I'm still awaiting his results after I asked him to test solo. So if you were actually observing a 7.7x crit damage multiplier, that would make matters very interesting.

 

As for slam attacks, they only use the described damage formula when making direct hits on the enemy. Basically, the enemy has to be underneath you when you attack. As such, critical damage and chance apply to direct hits, and multiple enemies can be hit simultaneously. Otherwise, enemies within the 5-meter AoE will take 300 damage (100 impact, 100 puncture, 100 slash) that decreases with distance. This AoE damage is unaffected by power strength, and can perform head shots.

[Ruriko]

That's mildly disappointing. I suppose it was necessary to make the slam attack consistent with various weapons in terms of damage and range. It's kind of unfortunate that we currently have no means of boosting that slam attack, meaning it is only viable as a Knockdown tactic. It also makes it far less effective than Paralysis, which deals considerably more damage over a larger range and gives players access to the 4x Melee damage bonus.

 

I will be running some tests over the next few days and see how things end up for me. I'm almost positive they'll verify your findings. I think that a lot of the confusion regarding Hysteria comes from the fact that DE made the ability very complex. There are so many factors that go into Hysteria and many more that do not. Players will be made to decide between a weapon that maximizes their power in Hysteria and a weapon that can be utilized in actual combat. There is also the issue of how these abilities end up coming together in the final math.

 

Admittedly, I'd like to ask for your idea of how Hysteria's attacks will feel with the melee attack button likely going away in Melee 2.0. Do you have hope that the secondary fire (Or Aim or Charge Attack or Detonate, depending on what you're using) will become something to build onto hysteria? Or do you think it'll just use your regular attack?