How Would You Balance Trinity?

[Thrymm]

I just recently got a Trinity, and frankly I'm struck by how "one dimensional" the frame is.  Yes, once developed the Blessing will give huge power, but the other stuff is.....well, kinda junk.  I was expecting some level of obscene power with her defensive ability, since I often use Rhino and Frost as my "primary" frames.

 

Number one is a weak sauce heal on a mob that's going to die really fast, with a lackluster single target CC attached to it.  Ok for a number one, I suppose.

 

Number two is the energy leech, which would have some great usage.....if you manage to find something that's going to live long enough to bother.

 

Number three is a pile of number two.  Really, link seems like a great idea, except Trinity is soft when not invincible and it's still single target.  Which brings up the same problem as her #1 and #2 abilities, you're essentially taking a single target out of the fight.  There are rare situations where this is a good idea, but large numbers of other frames can do the same thing with abilities that also have multi target funtionality.

 

Blessing is another thing entirely.  Raw, unadulterated invulnerability.  Not the Snow Globe kind(totally immobile pre nerf, now fleeting security post nerf) Nor the Iron skin kind(it's not as invulnerable as Apollodorus would have you believe, nor as useless as some of its defenders would have you believe either).  It's a simple, I'm going to go about my business except there will be no retribution ability.  The kind of thing that logic says doesn't belong anywhere in a game.

 

 

Sooo....with that in mind, here's some ideas that I think would make an interesting Trinity and yes, I do think it'd still be extremely powerful(maybe too much, just ideas here):

 

#1.  Make the health siphon target take half damage, or less, and give back as much as it currently gives.  No more CC until dead, but at the same time more potential health return by devoting time to shooting something that isn't dying.

 

#2.  Make the energy leech target give energy as long as it LIVES, not when it takes damage.  That said, this one might just be fine as is--the return is quite good and it is both useful and powerful, and relatively short ranged.

 

#3.  Make Link "self cast", and AE.  Meaning that anything hitting Trinity while Link is active gets linked and takes damage.  This would be extremely powerful, so with that in mind some level of balance would be in order, such as  a target cap(say, two targets per rank of mod).  Trinity seems to be excessively lacking in damage and CC abilities, which currently is somewhat justifiable due to blessing, but a rework would remove that "crutch".

 

#4  Remove invulnerability from Blessing, Keep the full shield recharge and healing.  In place of the invulnerability, consider an absorb shield(similar to Iron Skin) equal in power to Trinitys' adjusted shield number.  Alternatively, rather than full invulnerability consider a blanket damage reduction, or immunity from CC and Status effects(not damage).  Or, perhaps the damage route and give a short duration group Link ability--identical in function to the #3 ability, but emanating from all group members.

 

Lastly, tune durations so that none of this renders real invulnerability.  Total spitballing here, but hopefully it gives some ideas to work off of.

[--MANA--]

Here is where I say something that might be a bit unexpected.

I think that Trinity is fine where she is. Yes a good trinity can keep a team invulnerable, but you give up CC/Damage to have a Trinity in your squad.

Yes a good Trinity can keep a team alive, but the second she misses a Blessing cast, she is in big trouble.

this is true. to have a very long duration of blessing, you have to also sacrifice trinity's health and shield. it's not that simple to build her with a long duration of blessing. and when you miss your chance to use your blessing in later levels, like 1hour into survival, you're just doomed.

 

I think trinity is fine as where she is right now and messing her with will only cause additional problem.

 

+1 for you sir.

[ThePresident777]

Lets say they did allow enemies the ability to compete with certain tenno capabilities (which I still find cool). This still doesn't change the fact that her ult renders her first ability redundant and mods replace the need for her second. 

 

This isn't "Options" you repeated further up in this thread. It is a single button negating the need for the player to potentially go and press another. This argument is one of the bigger ones in the thread and nothing about this has changed.

 

So IF enemies where modified and trinity no longer had god mode something would still need to be done about her to increase viability of her other abilities.

 

Edit: Also this thread is balance (title). Posting here without care for balance is kind of just upping your post count is it not?

 

Edit2: It has also been mentioned several times in the thread that the point of this discussion is to take power off the ultimate and buff other aspects of the frame. This, while likely to be an overall nerf, would likely put her in a healthier position for gameplay. It would be impractical to buff the other aspects of the frame without taking off bits of her ultimate.

 

 

4 abilities, energy costs: 25, 50, 75, 100; why?  How does it tie in with the rest of the game?  It's a completely arbitrary system.  There is no design behind that at all.  So, it should not receive blind acceptance.  It should be challenged and made to conform to higher priorities.

 

It's the interaction between the Tenno aspects and the non-Tenno aspects of the game that have any chance of producing entertaining activity.  Therefore it is a massive design mistake to not contemplate the two together.  It is a complete disregard for the game from it's core on out.  We should not be encouraging DE to continue to make this mistake.

 

The enemy seeing that their bullets are wasted, should be resourceful enough to switch their efforts to immobilizing attacks or their own defense or retreat or another suitable counter measure, until conditions change.  Sure, the player is invulnerable, but that isn't of any use at all if he can't kill the enemy.  Without some extreme Tenno condition like Blessing, there is no sense in the enemy switching their behavior.  They may as well continue to spam bullets as usual.  Players don't like immobilization spam, but extreme conditions like Blessing, make immobalization justifiable and give the player a measure of control because they can choose not to provoke it or can choose to attack the enemy's counter-ability.

 

This is the better way to approach the problem because it's rooted in the foundation of the game, action, conflict.  Other approaches are arbitrarily theoretical.

 

So, we should be asking, what does Tenno ability XYZ imply for the enemy?  What behavior does it provoke?  What assets are there to counter?  You can't ask those questions if neither side has the corresponding ability.

 

That is a more fruitful line of questioning than comparing a 25 energy ability to a 100 energy ability.  It is not clear what energy expenditure has to do with anything in this game.  You can't capture anyone's imagination with arbitrary theories, not if you are advertising action. 

 

Well of Life implies that the enemy just keeps on shooting, no change on anybody's part.  Blessing implies that the enemy had better get creative or they're done. 

 

I find Blessing interesting, so, I'd rather work with it.  I don't see why it should be ruined to suit another power or an arbitrary design snippet.

 

Well of Life is about as interesting as Warm Coat and all those other mods no one uses.  That's about as good as it gets for Well of Life.  Well, it can be used to pump an enemy before hitting them with Energy Vampire.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Volt_Cruelerz]

this is true. to have a very long duration of blessing, you have to also sacrifice trinity's health and shield. it's not that simple to build her with a long duration of blessing. and when you miss your chance to use your blessing in later levels, like 1hour into survival, you're just doomed.

 

I think trinity is fine as where she is right now and messing her with will only cause additional problem.

 

+1 for you sir.

You're suggesting that we should balance around 60 minute survivals.  That is so far beyond the scope of the normal game it's not even funny.

[ThePresident777]

So.. are you asking for the AI to be so good we're forced to use Blessing?  That just seems even more broken.

 

No, the enemy should require time to analyze the Tenno and react.  It makes no sense for the enemy to have massive stock piles of Kryptonite, for example, everywhere.  Such valuable assets are held in reserve until the time when they are needed.  At which time they are deployed, which takes time.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

No, the enemy should require time to analyze the Tenno and react.  It makes no sense for the enemy to have massive stock piles of Kryptonite, for example, everywhere.  Such valuable assets are held in reserve until the time when they are needed.  At which time they are deployed, which takes time.

Such could indeed be fun. 

[ThePresident777]

Such could indeed be fun. 

 

Yes, and it's that time difference which can act as a form of cooldown, but, with interactive possibilities.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ThePresident777

[GTG3000]

You're suggesting that we should balance around 60 minute survivals.  That is so far beyond the scope of the normal game it's not even funny.

 

True that. Me personally, I recall I had most fun with Trin before her blessing was changed to show it's duration (and before I knew I could spam it). IMO, Trin would be best with personal godmode that puts her into the centre of the enemy crowd (because you get killed if you're not semi-hugging your opponents), with energy regen that allows this  to go on, but with some skill requirement, and two healing skills - one for constant use to aid friends on a regular basis, and another to use as a panic button for enother team, with a downside of a big 'cooldown' after the effect. I understand that it was because I was a noob and didn't really ask anyone, but that is how Trinity was in my eyes before all the changes, and that's how I liked her most.

 

The skill requirement for EV+Link combo is the hard part to bring in, and (in my opinion) the easiest so far was the way EV initially worked - giving you a cap AND an active time, thus allowing power in a pinch, but leaving you in the open if you don't use it well. Perhaps, 100 energy is all it should give. 

 

 

No, the enemy should require time to analyze the Tenno and react.  It makes no sense for the enemy to have massive stock piles of Kryptonite, for example, everywhere.  Such valuable assets are held in reserve until the time when they are needed.  At which time they are deployed, which takes time.

 

That would be fun, though you might find the game to be a bit of a clusterfuck at this point with all the enemies around, introducing kryptonite might just turn everything into frustration.

[-CM-Crazy]

Blessing give it a range, and make it start with a 5 second invincibility (unaffected by mods) then move to a damage reduction of 70%

[kill3r_furby]

4) preprogrammed moves for bosses. Alad V always stands in full view at the back of the room, waiting to be shot at. Sargas Ruk will always do his flame thrower thingy and go through the motions. They always perform the same actions every single time. After awhile you will always know what he will do next and plan accordingly.

 

The Souls series community would hate you.

[marharth]

Remove DR from Link, double the damage. This way Trin can do some damage.

 

This is a solution a lot of people seem to have. Lets take the frame that is supposed to be a support frame and nothing else, and turn it into another boring damage frame that presses one key to kill stuff.

[LascarCapable]

I'd just remove the total invincibility for Blessing and add instead a damage reduction buff, working like overheat.

 

But I haven't the frame yet. I should try it first.

[Dalu__Ka]

This is a solution a lot of people seem to have. Lets take the frame that is supposed to be a support frame and nothing else, and turn it into another boring damage frame that presses one key to kill stuff.

But trinity already has the best damaging AOE in game. It just requires 3 steps instead of 1.

[GTG3000]

But trinity already has the best damaging AOE in game. It just requires 3 steps instead of 1.

 

Well, how about we take that away and concentrate on her being tank/healer/support?

[(PSN)Chip_Foamy]

But trinity already has the best damaging AOE in game. It just requires 3 steps instead of 1.

And that's just fine in my book.

[Dalu__Ka]

And that's just fine in my book.

A mechanic that is clearly not intended is not fine in mine.

[TunaMayo]

Well, how about we take that away and concentrate on her being tank/healer/support?

 

Pretty much this. Trinity is meant to :

 

1. Survive.

2. Promote team survival

3. Support team with energy and health

 

She was not meant to be a big damage dealer, or to supply godmode.

[GTG3000]

Pretty much this. Trinity is meant to :

 

1. Survive.

2. Promote team survival

3. Support team with energy and health

 

She was not meant to be a big damage dealer, or to supply godmode.

 

Well, reworking her this way would be perfect, but it seems to have slipped Scotts' mind.

[--MANA--]

You're suggesting that we should balance around 60 minute survivals.  That is so far beyond the scope of the normal game it's not even funny.

I'm not trying to be funny and no I'm not asking for them to balance her around 60 minute survivals. even at 35 you can die from corpus crewmen just from casting blessing near them. plus the mods that you have to max to achieve a long duration for blessing isn't a joke. i guess people just deserve that kind of blessing from trinity if they can grind and max the necessary mods for her and build her up.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm not trying to be funny and no I'm not asking for them to balance her around 60 minute survivals. even at 35 you can die from corpus crewmen just from casting blessing near them. plus the mods that you have to max to achieve a long duration for blessing isn't a joke. i guess people just deserve that kind of blessing from trinity if they can grind and max the necessary mods for her and build her up.

Let me tell you a story of a weapon from a game I've worked on before.  It was an FPS+Z, so you've got shooting, aerial duels, skiing, CTF-oriented gameplay, etc.  The dominant weapon was of course, the Rocket Launcher.  However, there was a small fraction of the playerbase that used the only hitscan weapon in the game which also happened to be the sniper rifle.  Almost the entire playerbase wanted buffs on it.  But there was a small fraction that wanted it to be nerfed.  You see, the weapon was such that all it took was a single person that had hit the skill ceiling of that weapon (sniping someone out of the air that's going 200+ m/s) to be in a game to bring the enemy team's offense to a screeching halt.  One player.  One single player could completely neutralize an entire team's worth of difficulty.  As I recall, what we ended up doing was nerfing it followed by a rework followed by another nerf.

 

There is such a thing as a skill ceiling that is too high.  Now, Warframe doesn't reward skill, it rewards grind, but I think you get the point.  One person cannot be allowed to have too much power.  No matter how long you play, you should never be able to trivialize everything in your path.  That's why I've been suggesting the duration be dramatically reduced.  I'm okay with a brief invulnerability as that can lead to some cool plays and if/when skill ever gets rewarded in Warframe, it would work out well.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[--MANA--]

 

There is such a thing as a skill ceiling that is too high.  Now, Warframe doesn't reward skill, it rewards grind, but I think you get the point.  One person cannot be allowed to have too much power.  No matter how long you play, you should never be able to trivialize everything in your path.  That's why I've been suggesting the duration be dramatically reduced.  I'm okay with a brief invulnerability as that can lead to some cool plays and if/when skill ever gets rewarded in Warframe, it would work out well.

well too bad, here it actually requires more grinding than skill to get stronger. and just because trinity can cast a duration that can last for half a minute doesn't mean that she already have too much power. you're basically giving away your damage skills for her buffs and I think that's something big to consider. I'm against for the duration to be touched or fix her abilities. I just agree with some people that she's perfect the way she is right now. Trinity is my second most used warframe and yet i still die when i use her from time to time.

[Ttariel]

What i would do?

 

Give her 1.1 Speed

 

Blessing: Give blessing a very short range like 15m but increase the casting time by 25%.

 

Link: Now targets 3 enemies at max but >all< the damage will still be given over. (They die faster and the beams jump over faster)

 

Energy Vampire: If the enemy is nuked it gives 80% of the casting energy for each of the team members, constant damage will give the same. ( The idea is that trinity will mod for high energy cost and get a special bonus out of it)

 

Now thse ideas still need some big fine work but thats the way i would find her amazing.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Ttariel

[Volt_Cruelerz]

well too bad, here it actually requires more grinding than skill to get stronger. and just because trinity can cast a duration that can last for half a minute doesn't mean that she already have too much power. you're basically giving away your damage skills for her buffs and I think that's something big to consider. I'm against for the duration to be touched or fix her abilities. I just agree with some people that she's perfect the way she is right now. Trinity is my second most used warframe and yet i still die when i use her from time to time.

there are better ways for the game for her to support a team than long duration invincibility. Can you not see why trivializing difficulty is bad?

[lostinrehab]

there are better ways for the game for her to support a team than long duration invincibility. Can you not see why trivializing difficulty is bad?

In a pvp game yes. In pve yes as well but to a much lesser degree. Blessing allows non skilled players and under-geared players to see content while invulnerable it hurts but not as much as playing with an ultra nuker like nova or saryn there's little to be enjoyed after being completely rendered useless by map clearing ultimates.

Trinity's blessing isn't a huge issue as much as the core issues that allow it to last as long as it does being mods but mods apply to everything and you've pointed it out before. Just saying singling out frames one at a time doesn't solve crap.

Also what does blessing actually trivialize blessing isn't and automatic win button in any mission (except deception/spy which need to be reworked anyway) on its own? If you can not kill fast enough you're almost just as screwed as before.

Edited March 5, 2014 by lostinrehab

[Volt_Cruelerz]

In a pvp game yes. In pve yes as well but to a much lesser degree. Blessing allows non skilled players and under-geared players to see content while invulnerable it hurts but not as much as playing with an ultra nuker like nova or saryn there's little to be enjoyed after being completely rendered useless by map clearing ultimates.Trinity's blessing isn't a huge issue as much as the core issues that allow it to last as long as it does being mods but mods apply to everything and you've pointed it out before. Just saying singling out frames one at a time doesn't solve crap.Also what does blessing actually trivialize blessing isn't and automatic win button in any mission (except deception/spy which need to be reworked anyway) on its own? If you can not kill fast enough you're almost just as screwed as before.

Warframe is a numbers game. Skill is nearly meaningless. It's all about gear and I, for one, am not a fan of giving players a crutch.

It's fixing power progression that matters. Unfortunately, we can't have things trivializing difficulty because such abilities make difficulty arbitrary.

It's not an "I win" button. It's an "I can't lose unless I'm horrendously under geared, an idiot, or playing endless content." Blessing trivializes risk. Most things have some risk/reward trade-off. Once you turn on blessing, there is no risk. It trivializes difficulty as a result because it means that you are unstoppable for an extended duration.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz