Legitimate Question To The Community And De: Op And Rng.

[8r8kSpider]

So, this is something I feel really is at the root of a lot of problems I have with this game as it is, and I'm not trying to be a troll here.

 

How is it that anything in the game, frames, guns, whatever, can actually be overpowered, when it's a PVE game with rewards based entirely on random number generation? I mean, really, when you play this game, you are submitting time as a currency to gamble, and, hopefully, get rewards that make the time you spend in the game more fun, right? So how is it that with mission modes which are "endless" anything can truly be overpowered? Should you have to restart a survival every fifty minutes, every hour, just to get the exact same spins on the loot table? There's no time limit to unlock certain rewards, you could literally play survivals to five minutes over and over and over, and you get exactly the same loot as someone who lasted an hour would, if you play the mission twelve times to five minutes each, without putting in nearly as much effort. The only inconvenience is starting the mission and watching the cutscene intro over and over.

 

If they're going to "balance" frames because they're too useful, or make the game "too" easy, aren't they really saying you should have to try harder for those spins on a completely random loot roulette? Is that fair? I don't think it is, frankly. Really what I'm getting at here is that this game needs to either have nothing nerfed, ever, because it literally does not matter how easy or hard the game is, since everyone gets the same randomized rewards, or, they need to remove randomly generated rewards altogether. I just don't see how both can stay in effect without this game becomming well, Farming Simulator 2014, and really, this game could be so, so much better than that.

Edited March 9, 2014 by 8r8kSpider

[GrogBeard]

Because time in should equal power out. Across all classes. Whether it is killing or defensive power. Ember shouldn't be a wrong choice simply because she is less powerful at killing than Nova. By making somethings stronger they get to mill through challenges faster, and obtain rolls on drop tables faster. Also last I checked survival drop tables were supposed to get you better stuff as you got further into them, but it certainly hasn't been feeling like it.

 

As for RNG, I agree that this is a problem, I don't think it has a simple solution. I made some points a while ago.

 

"If there was a more responsive reward system, I think people would stop complaining about the "Grind" as much, because placing the emphasis on the how, enables players to believe that they could have done slightly better, and gotten the thing they wanted."

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/162015-somestuff-banshee-is-a-symptom-not-a-problem/#entry1898874

Edited March 9, 2014 by GrogBeard

[CY13ERPUNK]

....

ok ill bite

yer basically not seeing the forest for the trees here

yer argument is to devolve the game down to something like "press button, get random rewards, repeat" yes at its MOST BASIC lvl, that is what the game is, but if u cannot see that Warframe is MUCH MUCH more than that, well then i dunno...

RNG is an industry staple for a reason, and while yes I will admit that DE could implement it better in some ways, they understand that if u just give everything away too easily, then the playerbase will evaporate, ie there needs to be some kind of "challenge" (ie perform difficult task, get random reward)

"nerfing" an ability on a frame like MPrime on Nova is in the best interest of the game long-term because the power over-simplifies the existing content and massively overshadows the powers of a large number of other frames ingame (not a good thing)

the important thing to remember here is that there is/needstobe/hastobe more than just the slot-machine effect, if its just: "pull lever, wait for random reward, repeat" its not enough (well not enough in this sense at least), there needs to be a "challenging" mechanic inbetween that is required to be performed b4 the chance for the rewards can be attained (ie defeat this boss, etc)

EDIT - also +1 Grogbeard and +1 on yer other post as well, nicely done

Edited March 9, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK

[LukeAura]

Cause the primary point of the content is not the rng roulette, but actually playing, enjoying, and feeling challenged by the content. OP is when the ability, frame, or weapon trivializes in mission content to the point such that that the user of them or the people playing with the user lose the enjoyment of playing that content. 
Or,
That using any other ability, frame, or weapon is so much stronger than the others that not using it just seems like an arbitrary restriction. This definition of OP can be adjusted for by making sure the item in question is scaled so that it doesn't fulfil the first clause, in which it is OP by ruining enjoyment, but at the same time making sure it is denoted that it is not at the regular level of power like ordinary weapons. Such as defining it as a 'prime' or 'wraith'. As long as it is not strong enough to absolutely trivialize content then it's not that bad. 

Explosive weapons are an interesting niche in which while they do seem to trivialize content, they do add the challenge of not blowing yourself up in the process. Although they may make it unfun for other players so grounds for being 'Op', is still potentially there. 

Also, nice name, Best Web comic. Troll Jeegus is proud of you. 

Edit: Endless has long been stated to not be a balanced for level of play. It is not a factor when defining Op. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by LukeAura

[Stinker]

I don't play warframe for loot.

I don't play warframe for rewards.

I didn't play warframe to be OP and l33t

 

I play warframe because of the gameplay.

Lately, the pace of the game has been accelerating, but the pace of the action has slowed to a crawl.

[8r8kSpider]

The point is that the task cannot be too challenging when you're not actually going to get a reward you want. The challenge should only come when you're actually going to earn a reward you want, not when you're going to get something absolutely useless to you. RNG is an industry staple because people only see trees and get lost in the forest. I'm not that kind of person and never will be, if I'm getting nothing but random rewards, there needs to be as little effort as possible put into obtaining them, if I'm getting rewards I want, I'm fine with the experience being challenging. What I'm arguing is that you can't have both, you cannot make obtaining a reward a struggle, and then make the reward potentially utterly useless. People get as tired of that as they do of simply never getting anything for their effort at all.

 

Take for example, Mass Effect 3's multiplayer mode. It did not matter how well you played, you could only unlock things entirely randomly. I got sick of the game very quickly because no matter how well I did, I would wind up with absolutely useless, unwanted rewards. I'm not saying a game shouldn't be hard. I'm not saying a game shouldn't ever employ RNG. I'm saying it can't make it hard to get RNG rewards, it's not fun, it's not entertaining, there will come a day when I just stop playing this game because I'm sick of literally wasting my time and getting nothing that makes the game more entertaining out of it. That day is going to come very, very soon, unless something changes in this game. I like the trees in this forest, sure, I love the gameplay mechanics, but I want to get the warframes/weapons I want to play with, in what is essentially a sandbox. When I can run literally a hundred missions without getting a single reward I wanted, I cease having a desire to even try, I become so tired of the game, with no new content, I might as well just be playing a solt machine, and I am not a gambling woman, I'd rather play a game where I can work towards a reward I want, however, difficult it is to obtain that reward, or a game that's so easy to play running a hundred missions pointlessly is just as tiring as hitting a button a hundred times without ever once hitting the jackpot.

Edited March 9, 2014 by 8r8kSpider

[LukeAura]

Then you have a problem with the RNG, not the OP items and abilities that make it easier to farm said RNG. 
We should not allow Op items, a flaw in design, to stay because they are covering up for another flaw. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

 

[8r8kSpider]

Then you have a problem with the RNG, not the OP items and abilities that make it easier to farm said RNG. 

We should not allow Op items, a flaw in design, to stay because they are covering up for another flaw. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

 

 

 

That is the entire point of this post. I do not want Warframe to devolve into optimal farming strategies.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

either have nothing nerfed, ever, because it literally does not matter how easy or hard the game is, since everyone gets the same randomized rewards, or, they need to remove randomly generated rewards altogether. I just don't see how both can stay in effect without this game becomming well, Farming Simulator 2014, and really, this game could be so, so much better than that.

My stance on balance:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk

 

 

 

RNG is perfectly fine in this game so long as doesn't touch power growth.

[GrogBeard]

RNG is an industry staple for a reason, and while yes I will admit that DE could implement it better in some ways, they understand that if u just give everything away too easily, then the playerbase will evaporate, ie there needs to be some kind of "challenge" (ie perform difficult task, get random reward)

 

Oh man, remember that super legit thing they took out of WoW? There were class specific quests that were really hard to do, but had a huge benefit. I think that there should be tasks that you can complete, with INSANE difficulty to get a specific thing you want. Make it like a mastery rank challenge, once every 24 hours, raid a solar rail convoy, wallrun, shoot and slice your way up the train moving from car to car before they decouple all the cars in an effort to save the valuable thing in the engine room?!?!?! SIIIICCCCKKK

[(PSN)natek_morzy]

I agree. Warframe does seem to revolve around RNG a little too much. I feel like they need to give us more things to do instead of throwing new content at us that we can basically master/finish in a few weeks. I mean I'm at the highest mastery you can get and plan to break 15 once 12.4.0 gets to PS4 but it is literally the same scenario of leveling and completing the new content each update[but that's beside the point as it is my problem].

 

I mean... I played the FFXIV:ARR beta in FEB and me and my buddies REALLY enjoyed it. It just has the end-game material that Warframe seriously lacks. And whats sad is even if they do give us end-game content it will probably "have" to give us better rewards that the Void does and I believe that will really harm this game. I really don't know.

 

I mean hey who knows, though. DE could just enjoy RNG a lot and we'll never see the end of it.

 

 

Cheers,

Morzy