What If 'players' Acted Out The Stalker Role.. Like In Dark Souls?

[Tsukinoki]

What i said about not being able to be revived from others is that I think this already happens with the Stalker NPC (correct me if i'm wrong, never died to him without a group). When he kills someone, teammates don't have the chance to revive the killed player. He has to spend a revive token, or forfeit and stay dead.

How I read your statement, and how it was worded, was that once that stalker killed you that was it, you're dead for the rest of the mission and cant revive yourself even with tokens. If you did not mean it that way I apologize but that is how it was worded

Again.. if the players don't want the Stalkers in their mission, they should just left it off. I don't quite get what you mean about being unable to get to the extraction point. Nothing makes it impossible as far as I know.

I used the wrong word there, I should have said extraction wave.

It was based off of how you worded the previous point that I addressed. Think of this: You are on wave 30 of a defense mission and the stalker appears and wipes out 2 or 3 members of your party and they cant be revived at all. Try making it from wave 30 to 35 alone. That is what I was meaning.

Again though it looks like I misunderstood this statement you made:

So perhaps they should just make it that players being killed by the Stalker can't be revived at all for the rest of the mission. It will be a simple case of kill or be killed. Besides... it's 4 vs 1 '-'..

If that system is implemented that would make some missions clearly unfair to the players to be invaded, be it a boss, infinite defense, or an alert mission.

[Dashx]

How I read your statement, and how it was worded, was that once that stalker killed you that was it, you're dead for the rest of the mission and cant revive yourself even with tokens. If you did not mean it that way I apologize but that is how it was worded

I used the wrong word there, I should have said extraction wave.

It was based off of how you worded the previous point that I addressed. Think of this: You are on wave 30 of a defense mission and the stalker appears and wipes out 2 or 3 members of your party and they cant be revived at all. Try making it from wave 30 to 35 alone. That is what I was meaning.

Again though it looks like I misunderstood this statement you made:

If that system is implemented that would make some missions clearly unfair to the players to be invaded, be it a boss, infinite defense, or an alert mission.

 

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I suppose I may have written it in a wrong way. What I tried to say is that if they get killed by the stalker, the only way for them to revive is by using their revive tokens.

 

Hm. I do get your point in the endless defense missions. But then, why let NPCs Stalkers appear and not let players? They could screw up the waves yeah, but so can the NPCs if the players get careless. The monsters can also attack the Stalkers in case you don't know. Then can very well kill him around wave 30.

 

This is why I think it's best if the focus is just at one target and not reward much if the Stalker kills the others. That was my main opinion since the start. But during the discussion it has been said that there should have some sort of reward for killing the entire group. I'm not really against that, but I don't think they should give much incentive to that kind of thing. Because if so, there will be rage and abuse as you mentioned.

[Tsukinoki]

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I suppose I may have written it in a wrong way. What I tried to say is that if they get killed by the stalker, the only way for them to revive is by using their revive tokens.

The only issue I see with this is lower leveled players leave it open, a stalker jumps in kills all but his target, they revive and he rinses and repeats until either:

A) he gets bored and kills his target

or B) They stop using tokens

Maybe make it so that when a player controlled stalker kills someone they can be revived normally or something?

Hm. I do get your point in the endless defense missions. But then, why let NPCs Stalkers appear and not let players? They could screw up the waves yeah, but so can the NPCs if the players get careless. The monsters can also attack the Stalkers in case you don't know. Then can very well kill him around wave 30.

I honestly think that they shouldn't let stalkers appear in Boss missions or endless defense anyways, but a player one would just make it worse because they could actually survive and do things in those missions. And yes I have had a stalker appear at the same time as I was killing an normal boss which was not a lot of fun for the rest of my group.

This is why I think it's best if the focus is just at one target and not reward much if the Stalker kills the others. That was my main opinion since the start. But during the discussion it has been said that there should have some sort of reward for killing the entire group. I'm not really against that, but I don't think they should give much incentive to that kind of thing. Because if so, there will be rage and abuse as you mentioned.

I agree here that they should not get a reward for killing other players besides their target, unless its a rather small one, for the reason of making a stalker go "Oh, I got lucky and was dumped in a lower level mission...if I kill each one and take my sweet time I'll get a better reward". That will just cause rage on the side of the newer players which is rarely that good of a thing. See my first point in this post for why it would be an incentive to troll/grief.

[RoninTX]

This is a very long thread, but hoping as a new person I might be able to add my thoughts to it.

Instead of thinking up new abilities and all kind of tricks for the "player" stalker.

Just leave ALL the stats, skills, whatever frame for the stalker and CURRENT rules on when and where a stalker appears/disappears, that DE has put in, stay the same. So the ONLY thing which would change is that instead of AI controlling it, it is a player controlling the stalker.

This way the only 3 things which need to be added are:

1. Randomized selection of players that receive the option to play as a stalker. optional have an internal timer for that player so he/she can not be chosen for X amount of time after being chosen(fail, win or deny/refuse selection)

2. Some kind of reward on both sides for winning the stalker event.

NO extra award given for killing other then selected target for stalker and NO reward given for the targetted player for outliving the stalker.

optional extra reward for the stalker is to slay his intended target within a certain time. This will make killing the teammates of the targetted player less profitable and thus less likely to happen.

3. optional in menu to select/de-select, maybe a percentage scaler of some sorts, that when you are the target of the stalker event that it can be a human player instead of NPC.

Edited April 16, 2013 by RoninTX

[Dashx]

The only issue I see with this is lower leveled players leave it open, a stalker jumps in kills all but his target, they revive and he rinses and repeats until either:
A) he gets bored and kills his target
or B) They stop using tokens
Maybe make it so that when a player controlled stalker kills someone they can be revived normally or something?

 

That's why it would be best if it was need at least a minimum level or mastery rank. That way no newbies would be in an unfortunate situation. And when possible it would be turned off by default.

 

I honestly think that they shouldn't let stalkers appear in Boss missions or endless defense anyways, but a player one would just make it worse because they could actually survive and do things in those missions. And yes I have had a stalker appear at the same time as I was killing an normal boss which was not a lot of fun for the rest of my group.

 

That's up to DE. That never happened to me so I can't really know how bad it would be. But it's not like it would happen every single time. After all, it would be random and it should be a limited thing.

 

I agree here that they should not get a reward for killing other players besides their target, unless its a rather small one, for the reason of making a stalker go "Oh, I got lucky and was dumped in a lower level mission...if I kill each one and take my sweet time I'll get a better reward". That will just cause rage on the side of the newer players which is rarely that good of a thing. See my first point in this post for why it would be an incentive to troll/grief.

 

Perhaps there should a sort of "penalty" for killing wrong targets then? Or at least a reducted reward if you kill unnecessary players.

 

This should not be a feature for new players because they will not understand what's that. And yeah, the Stalker will be at advantage and this will lead to rage. This is why I think there should be some sort of level requirement. A Timer limit could work as someone else mentioned here today. Example, you have 4 minutes to defeat your target or you'll fail and will receive nothing.

[Tsukinoki]

That's why it would be best if it was need at least a minimum level or mastery rank. That way no newbies would be in an unfortunate situation. And when possible it would be turned off by default.

I say mastery rank instead of level, say mastery rank 2 or 3. That makes sure that they know the ropes well enough to get around and will actually have a chance, and if a mission includes someone of lower rank it should be unable to get invaded. That way a higher level running with a bunch of lower levels, either to show them the game or just help, wont inadvertantly screw them over.

Perhaps there should a sort of "penalty" for killing wrong targets then? Or at least a reducted reward if you kill unnecessary players.

This should not be a feature for new players because they will not understand what's that. And yeah, the Stalker will be at advantage and this will lead to rage. This is why I think there should be some sort of level requirement. A Timer limit could work as someone else mentioned here today. Example, you have 4 minutes to defeat your target or you'll fail and will receive nothing.

I could see reducing the reward if they kill the wrong targets, as well as some sort of timer, otherwise the stalker jumps into a boss missions and shadows the group until they are fighting the boss then blind-sides them.

Another thing the timer would prevent is say you are doing an endless defense mission when he appears and everyone decides: "Why dont we just work together to have an easier time?" Either remove him from endless defense or have a timer so that he cant finish the mission with the players at the next extraction wave.

[Dashx]

I say mastery rank instead of level, say mastery rank 2 or 3. That makes sure that they know the ropes well enough to get around and will actually have a chance, and if a mission includes someone of lower rank it should be unable to get invaded. That way a higher level running with a bunch of lower levels, either to show them the game or just help, wont inadvertantly screw them over.

 

That could work out. They could also limit the invasions to mid-high level planets too.

 

I could see reducing the reward if they kill the wrong targets, as well as some sort of timer, otherwise the stalker jumps into a boss missions and shadows the group until they are fighting the boss then blind-sides them.

Another thing the timer would prevent is say you are doing an endless defense mission when he appears and everyone decides: "Why dont we just work together to have an easier time?" Either remove him from endless defense or have a timer so that he cant finish the mission with the players at the next extraction wave.

 

 

Yeah. A timer would fix that stalking behavior in boss missions and endless defense. I think it would be better if the players/stalker can't see who are each other. Like the Stalker would only see the Warframe names, like Loki, Banshee, Rhino and Volt instead of their usernames. And the others would just see him as Stalker. 

 

There would be no profit in helping the players in endless defense missions. And a timer would fix that possibility. 

[GoldFusion]

it would be awesome if you kill the stalker and get banshee parts

[Dashx]

it would be awesome if you kill the stalker and get banshee parts

 

'-'... What? You can get banshee parts pretty much everywhere. It simply depends on the type of mission. I think that Stalkers dropping it is pretty much unnecessary.

[Tsukinoki]

That could work out. They could also limit the invasions to mid-high level planets too.

It could be a combination and that would be fair on both sides. Not only can you not invade players below a certain mastery rank but they have to be on earth or later or something like that.

It would definately prevent lower levels from being a target without really limiting the stalkers number of maps.

Yeah. A timer would fix that stalking behavior in boss missions and endless defense. I think it would be better if the players/stalker can't see who are each other. Like the Stalker would only see the Warframe names, like Loki, Banshee, Rhino and Volt instead of their usernames. And the others would just see him as Stalker. 

I agree with not being able to see the other warframes names besides what they are. That way it allows the stalker to think and go "Crap, 3 rhino's and a loki? This is going to be hell" and think of a way to deal with his one target, while preventing them from hating each other and finding each other on the forums and range/flame at each other through forums or in game chat.

[Tsukinoki]

'-'... What? You can get banshee parts pretty much everywhere. It simply depends on the type of mission. I think that Stalkers dropping it is pretty much unnecessary.

 

I've actually gotten banshee parts while running a new friend through M-Prime.

[Dashx]

I've actually gotten banshee parts while running a new friend through M-Prime.

 

Banshee parts can drop from Raid, Sabotage, Spy and Endless Defense if i'm not mistaken. And that can be in every planet. That's what I meant when I said that it can be found pretty much everywhere. For the record I got my Banshee Chassis on M-Prime too.

 

It could be a combination and that would be fair on both sides. Not only can you not invade players below a certain mastery rank but they have to be on earth or later or something like that.

It would definately prevent lower levels from being a target without really limiting the stalkers number of maps.

 

Yeah. I think this would work pretty well for both sides. See that the idea isn't bad at all? XD

 

I agree with not being able to see the other warframes names besides what they are. That way it allows the stalker to think and go "Crap, 3 rhino's and a loki? This is going to be hell" and think of a way to deal with his one target, while preventing them from hating each other and finding each other on the forums and range/flame at each other through forums or in game chat.

 

Yes, that was the main reason why I mentioned that. It would be just to avoid awkward situations between players.

[Tsukinoki]

Yeah. I think this would work pretty well for both sides. See that the idea isn't bad at all? XD

Yes, that was the main reason why I mentioned that. It would be just to avoid awkward situations between players.

This idea can work with limitations on a few things such as what you and me and discussing. In its raw form it can be used to troll/grief players with little to no repercussions and would lead to too many people playing stalker simply to ruin other peoples games.

I have played enough Dark Souls to see that happen and have it happen to me.

I am simply trying to bring up any points of contention that would either

A) induce near endless amounts of rage

or B) allow the system to be used for trolling/griefing of lower level players.

I have also played games with free pvp and if you were starting the game fresh you were in for a rough ride of spawning in and being wiped out by a PKer simply for their own amusement and then trying to figure out how to play the game while avoiding the much more knowledgeable opponents. I just dont want to see that repeated here and chase off new players and cause the game to die, especially since the game is marketed as Co-op and PvE.

[Dashx]

This idea can work with limitations on a few things such as what you and me and discussing. In its raw form it can be used to troll/grief players with little to no repercussions and would lead to too many people playing stalker simply to ruin other peoples games.

I am simply trying to bring up any points of contention that would either

A) induce near endless amounts of rage

or B) allow the system to be used for trolling/griefing of lower level players.

 

I understood your points and I know what you mean. It shouldn't be available to lower level players for those many reasons.

 

I have also played games with free pvp and if you were starting the game fresh you were in for a rough ride of spawning in and being wiped out by a PKer simply for their own amusement and then trying to figure out how to play the game while avoiding the much more knowledgeable opponents. I just dont want to see that repeated here and chase off new players and cause the game to die, especially since the game is marketed as Co-op and PvE.

 

Wow that must have sucked :/

 

This would be just a small feature that would be PvP, i don't think that it would make the game look less focused on PvE.

[Tsukinoki]

I understood your points and I know what you mean. It shouldn't be available to lower level players for those many reasons.

And I agree with you. Limiting it by level my piss off PvP heavy people, but it needs to be done to limit the abuse potential. Many people seem to just want PvP to just have PvP without any limitations which wouldn't work in this game.

Wow that must have sucked :/

This would be just a small feature that would be PvP, i don't think that it would make the game look less focused on PvE.

If it was limited to above a certain mastery rank I would agree with you. If it wasn't a player who just barely finished tolstaj could go into a map, a random stalker appears bad mouths him through chat and then proceeds to kill him or his entire team. That would just lead to new player rage, and yelling which would make people turn away from the game because bad news travels a lot faster than good news, and it has a bigger impact.

[Dashx]

And I agree with you. Limiting it by level my &!$$ off PvP heavy people, but it needs to be done to limit the abuse potential. Many people seem to just want PvP to just have PvP without any limitations which wouldn't work in this game.

If it was limited to above a certain mastery rank I would agree with you. If it wasn't a player who just barely finished tolstaj could go into a map, a random stalker appears bad mouths him through chat and then proceeds to kill him or his entire team. That would just lead to new player rage, and yelling which would make people turn away from the game because bad news travels a lot faster than good news, and it has a bigger impact.

 

With no limitations it would not work out well and it would end spliting the community into PvE players and PvP players. That would not be a smart move to make. And in the worst case scenario the game would end dying.

 

I agree with you that bad news always make a bigger impact than good ones. This is why this can't something forced. There has to be the option where players can play safely without any stalker players (though i doubt this would change anything about the stalker npc).

[Tsukinoki]

With no limitations it would not work out well and it would end spliting the community into PvE players and PvP players. That would not be a smart move to make. And in the worst case scenario the game would end dying.

I agree with you that bad news always make a bigger impact than good ones. This is why this can't something forced. There has to be the option where players can play safely without any stalker players (though i doubt this would change anything about the stalker npc).

A split should be avoided if at all possible to avoid having this game die.

One thing also is to avoid it being "forced" is that if there are rewards for being the stalker there should *never* be any rewards that *require* you to be the stalker to get. There will be no surer way of causing rage them forcing the players to PvP when they dont want to to get some rewards that affect gameplay.

By rewards I mean specific mods/bps/whatever that actually affects gameplay. Have titles/medals/whatever as long as they dont affect the actual game.

And having a computer stalker is fine. A computer wont bad-mouth you and such where a player can, and most likely will. Also some people just hate the idea of PvP completely, and dont mind fighting a bot of something just as long as its not actually another player.

[sintastic]

I think they should make the "stalkers" a separate playable faction.  A Mercenary branch of Teeno.....kind of like the faction description of teeno.  Their priority is credits.  Their missions would be different from regular Lotus Teeno, and their Alert missions would be to eliminate a certain teeno.  they couldn't just invade one person after another and they would have no choice of invasion level, it would be random in a sense but a high level stalker wouldn't get the alert mission for a low lvl assassination target but a low lvl stalker could get the alerts for a high lvl target for greater rewards (? rewards).  Stalker alert missions would have to be solo'd, no groups of stalkers and you would only get credit for mission completion if you killed the primary target, no credit for the other members of the group and yet they can all attack you.  This would be fun for those looking for the "pvp" aspect in the game but not overwhelming for those that are not.  what difference does it make if a person is controlling the stalker compared to the regular lvl 45 stalker kicking the crap out of you at lvl 15.  This way, at least you would have a better chance if you happen to be caught while soloing, as the stalker would be closer to your lvl.  This would also open up the option for more warframes with different abilities for the new "Merc" faction.

 

Edit:  If you are about to be invaded you will still get the 3 prewarnings before the invader spawns, and the invader will not spawn on top of you as the stalker does now, maybe they can spawn at a random location on map.  This will give you the chance to still complete your mission while the stalker is hunting you down.  The stalker will show up as a yellow dot on your map if you have enemy radar equipped (or maybe even without the radar) to make it noticeable incase youre in a group of enemies.  If youre the stalker the primary target will be marked on map and outlined in red to make them distinguishable amongst all the teeno in group. Also to avoid griefing of players, you can only be invaded once per match, and once the stalker is defeated or you are defeated the stalker despawns as usual and the invasion is over.  You can only be invaded every so often, either by number of matches played or by time amount so you will never get the feeling that you are being invaded every match you play.

Edited April 16, 2013 by sintastic

[Dashx]

A split should be avoided if at all possible to avoid having this game die.

 

I agree. As much as I like this PvP idea, this is not a PvP game.

 

One thing also is to avoid it being "forced" is that if there are rewards for being the stalker there should *never* be any rewards that *require* you to be the stalker to get. There will be no surer way of causing rage them forcing the players to PvP when they dont want to to get some rewards that affect gameplay.

By rewards I mean specific mods/bps/whatever that actually affects gameplay. Have titles/medals/whatever as long as they dont affect the actual game.

 

Well, it could have a higher chance of receiving a random alert drop (like artifacts or bps). Wouldn't always happen, but aside from credits I don't see any problem in that. 

 

And having a computer stalker is fine. A computer wont bad-mouth you and such where a player can, and most likely will. Also some people just hate the idea of PvP completely, and dont mind fighting a bot of something just as long as its not actually another player.

 

That's simple to fix. They simply have to make that the players and the stalker can't talk with each other. There is no point in chatting between them either.

[Tsukinoki]

Well, it could have a higher chance of receiving a random alert drop (like artifacts or bps). Wouldn't always happen, but aside from credits I don't see any problem in that.

That I can understand. What I was meaning was they would need to avoid having mods or warframe bps or weapons that affect gameply and the only way of getting them is being the stalker/beating a player stalker.

That's simple to fix. They simply have to make that the players and the stalker can't talk with each other. There is no point in chatting between them either.

While this is true, and could just not have them talking on group/squad chat at all while he is a stalker I am merely trying to cover all possible bases, especially something like squad chatting.

[richardddd]

If people are worried about being attacked by a player stalker during solo, perhaps just negate the chance of stalker until a full party is established? Problem solved.

[Aggh]

I agree. As much as I like this PvP idea, this is not a PvP game.

 

 

 

Well, it could have a higher chance of receiving a random alert drop (like artifacts or bps). Wouldn't always happen, but aside from credits I don't see any problem in that. 

 

 

 

That's simple to fix. They simply have to make that the players and the stalker can't talk with each other. There is no point in chatting between them either.

The player base is already split in so many ways that it's ridiculous to try and say that it shouldn't be.  That's just an easy argument to throw around without any real need to back it up with facts.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Aggh

[Dashx]

The player base is already split in so many ways that it's ridiculous to try and say that it shouldn't be.  That's just an easy argument to throw around without any real need to back it up with facts.

 

Would you rather read that it's better to not split even more then? Lol.

[Aggh]

Would you rather read that it's better to not split even more then? Lol.

Except it wouldn't.  The only people that would get split off are the minority of butt hurt care bears complaining in this thread.  You can't please everyone.  It's not like even the players that want this would have player controlled stalkers on 24/7.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Maslofski]

i could take him alone then, he never gets over 20 seconds of life