Should Illegally Downloading Be Punished Harder?

[GozertNL]

Hello fellow tenno's,

I have to make a project for school and I need arguments and counterarguments for the statement:

Illegally download of music and films should be punished harder

Could you guys help me out?

Edited March 12, 2014 by GozertNL

[BrotherIcarus]

Well how is it currently punished?

[Morgax]

With no option to punish the publisher for rushed/half finished/ money grabbing product, No.

 

In perfect world people would have an option to experience the full product and pay full price if the product deserves it, alas utopia is not happening yet.

[GozertNL]

Well how is it currently punished?

Good question. That depends on the country you are in.

In my country illegally downloading for personal use isnt punished. Only if you sell the stuff you download is a real 'crime'. The punishment depends on the amount of illegally things you have sold/downloaded. The punishment is usaly a fine.

[Tigersight]

No, no it should not. Because most of the media industry is hopelessly archaic and is in dire need of a full rework.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, the punishment for downloading a movie (in the US) is:

the police look through your computer and fine you $100,000 for every movie on it.

Really.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Tigersight

[GozertNL]

With no option to punish the publisher for rushed/half finished/ money grabbing product, No.

 

In perfect world people would have an option to experience the full product and pay full price if the product deserves it, alas utopia is not happening yet.

 

 

No, no it should not. Because most of the media industry is hopelessly archaic and is in dire need of a full rework.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, the punishment for downloading a movie (in the US) is:

the police look through your computer and fine you $100,000 for every movie on it.

Really.

Thanks, I havent thought of these two yet. Two totaly new perspectives.

[NovusNiveus]

The RIAA Argument: Each time a piece of content is illegally downloaded, this translates into a lost sale and can be said to represent a lost profit.

Counterpoint: Some people who illegally download content would not have purchased it in the first place. Some who illegally download do so only to test the product and will purchase it if they are satisfied with the quality of the product.


The Stealing Argument: Illegally downloading a piece of content can be seen as theft, on the basis that it deprives the creator of revenue from the sale of the product.

 

Counterpoint: Illegally downloading content cannot be considered theft, as the content producer still possesses the content and the ability to distribute as many copies of the content as they wish. All arguments from the previous counterpoint also apply.

 

Other Things

 

- Having your work distributed on a popular torrent site can work in your favor, as it heightens the exposure of your product for it to reach a large number of people, and it is inevitable that if your product is of a certain quality then a portion of those who have obtained it illegally will later purchase it.

-

, piracy is a service problem. What this means is that the primary reason that people illegally download software and such is that torrent sites often offer a better service for acquiring content - it is not an issue of price. It is an issue of convenience.

[Mainabi]

that's an interesting topic, problem is, for the normal consumer it's hard to differ between legal and illegal content. also just because it has a price tag doesn't mean it has to be legal, confusing the consumer more and more. since it's hard to protect the user from illegal content and it's hard for most people to differ it, switzerland considers downloading isn't illegal, uploading/sharing etc counts as illegal act, but downloading it not as already said because of the confusion. 
Protection of the People comes first!

 

Secondly The Witcher 3 will get a full release without any DRM, simply because they know it won't help at all, secondly because they also think if they deserve the pay, people will pay. Trusting the Gamer, to trust into the Devs. 
Personally I think that's a great thing, and they will get support from me.
Many people/pirates will download games and just test them out, if they like it many of them are likely to support the devs by buying it, basically they're in the wrong for downloading illegal content, yet they've still paid for it, should we call them bad guys?

   Since there are no demos anymore, games get released unfinished, bugged, does the user deserve to be punished, if they get careful because of that?
As Morgax said himself publisher rush the stuff, we get unfinished products, we pay for a service, a game yet we don't get the full thing, isn't that actually scam/wrong?

 

Money is limited, people want to spend the money wisely, now pirating stuff, playing/testing tons of games and picking their favos, and pay for them. without it people are way more careful and might not spend money at all.
 

To music download and movie downloads, as written above switzerland protects the user/citizen since it's very confusing. I'm against punishing the downloader, but I'm against the sharing and content distributing, same opinion as switzerland, it's too confusing and not clear enough, a professional looking site could have illegal songs/movies, you still have to pay for it, in the thought you're on a legal site, punishing them? No. But if you're sharing it, that's another story and it's fine to punish that. (and torrents are a grey zone)

nonetheless, youtube = downloading streaming to your pc, it's not a livestream so it precaches stuff on your pc to give you a smooth experience, but that means you're also downloading stuff, watching an illegal video on youtube could be considered illegal downloading, which also means if people should get punished harder, youtube viewers will also get punished hard. 

So instead of punishing hard, they should teach the user about the internet before the state should make a witchhunt after pirates. Pirating isn't hurting them.


Also I forgot to add: some pirated stuff are way more convenient to use. 100% online connection? usually not needed, if someone pays for a something they want to own the right to use it, if you're blocked by drm although you've paid for it (no inet or whatever) it's not convenient, so lots of people will simply pirate it. why are so many people using steam? although it is a pretty hard drm?

simple: it's convenient, it's easier than pirating.
(also many drms like securom etc causes troubles with the game, pirated games run smoother than original ones? happens a lot)

[Forralmatt]

No the punishment shouldn't be increased. I think it is wrong to punish a few for the crimes of many.

 

Right now they're trying to fight a battle against a culture that is very accepting towards piracy. Many pirates do not even perceive themselves as doing something wrong, but in fact feel they are doing the world a service by 'denying greedy corporations their money.' Lengthy and expensive legal proceedings are conducted in order to make 'examples' of a few caught pirates, and demand ridiculous amounts of money from them in order to frighten others, and thereby discourage further illegal downloads. There are quite a few horror stories of this on this on the internet, from as early as the millennium shift. I recall one instance with a single mother, sharing some songs on Kazaa, being made an example of and having her life absolutely ruined. She was guilty, for sure, but she wasn't punished for 'her' downloading and sharing songs, she was punished in place of everyone else.

 

If you've been downloading and spreading files illegally, you get caught, and convicted guilty, you should of course be punished for it. It however strange to find anyone deserving of paying ridiculous fees or face extended jail time when they themselves were only responsible for a lesser part of the potential losses experienced by retailers and publishers.

 

 

[Ganglius]

Australia was reported as the highest percentage of people illegally downloading "Game Of Thrones".... Why you ask? Absurdly long delay for release here on dvd and blu-ray, with no release on network tv.

 

Just sayin'.... >_> 

[Forralmatt]

Australia was reported as the highest percentage of people illegally downloading "Game Of Thrones".... Why you ask? Absurdly long delay for release here on dvd and blu-ray, with no release on network tv.

 

Just sayin'.... >_> 

Pretty sure the second season start of Game of Thrones breached all previous records of concurrent uploaders and downloaders, making it the most popular illegally downloaded thing ever. HBO representatives were apparently flattered by the development.

[GraalOhOtonami]

International laws fail to sufficiently cover the internet. In effect, downloading songs illegally cannot be punished by national law because the information crosses borders, meaning that the sharer and downloader are both at fault, but not punishable by the other's courts. However, if the sharer has no legal rights to share the data, but the downloader is in their rights to download it, the issue becomes further complicated, because it is half-legal. One cannot happen without the other.

 

Another point is that supply and demand can be a real problem for people looking for specific music. For example, no DRM was available for one of my favourite bands in the UK, I had no LEGAL access to them via digital means, so I looked for a physical copy and would have to pay an extortionate £60 for a £5 CD to be imported. As such, others may be forced to illegally download the music if they don't have the capital to obtain it. this does not translate to a lost sale by any means, because they would not have paid for the content, but the consumers are still happy. This is beneficial for both sides, as the band and therefore the producers have a higher chance of the music gaining social momentum and therefore some niche sales, and the consumer is enabled to access the media they were denied by their own national laws. These laws in effect stifle the democratic nature of competitive business as well as the freedom of music and of information.

[Phoenix86]

With no option to punish the publisher for rushed/half finished/ money grabbing product, No.

 

In perfect world people would have an option to experience the full product and pay full price if the product deserves it, alas utopia is not happening yet.

 

^ this sums it up for me

[bobafetthotmail]

As a general rule of thumb, "harder punishment" for anything is a horribly bad idea. See the proibitionism period in the USA and what is happening with the "war on drugs" again in USA.

 

Unless you have 100% uncrackable things and 100% surveillance over 100% of the population, it's between laughably ineffective and horribly counterproductive.

 

As for making stuff that "fights" piracy, you need to first understand why people prefer pirating stuff, then outcompete piracy by offering stuff it cannot offer, just as if it was normal competition.

 

Singers for example tend to make more live events. Because you can't pirate a live event. This pisses off the discographic industry because it's not involved in the profits, but that's another story.

 

Similar for games. F2P online multiplayer games are the rage now... guess why?

 

With no option to punish the publisher for rushed/half finished/ money grabbing product, No.

 

In perfect world people would have an option to experience the full product and pay full price if the product deserves it, alas utopia is not happening yet.

All of my yes to this. +1

[GozertNL]

thx guys, this realy helped me ;)

[GraalOhOtonami]

No problem Gozert ^_^

[AscendantWyvern]

I'm going to have to take the unpopular route here (and may be viewed as a pariah because of it). I don't think piracy should ever be the "answer". Making it a "solution" to corrupt distributers or a "way around" a sub-par product is not healthy for the long term of the gaming industry. 

 

Is it stealing? No. Particularly with music. Most bands, groups, singers, etc. get their profits from concerts, rather than album sales. 

 

However, when it comes to video games, there is no such alternate profit point. 

 

Will people buy the game if they can't pirate it? Lol no, however those who don't buy the game shouldn't still be able to play the full game for free (I'm a huge proprietor of Demos and Trials for this very reason).

 

If you think that a pirater who enjoys the game would suddenly up and buy it out of support, as Unearthed Arcana had mentioned, you're unfortunately wrong. The human psyche is selfish that way, why buy something you already have? Even if it's worth the support? (I can guarantee you that if the Founder's Package was nothing but a donation, that there will be a LOT less Founders around here.)

 

Voting with your wallet is a powerful tool to influence the industry. But pirating only creates a barrier that turns the industry into Dev vs. Customer. Just look at all the counter-pirating investments publishers have made these last couple of years. All of this development combating the customer could have been in something far more productive.

 

Just my two cents. Burn me at the steak for it, but I just see Pirating as a source of a negative and selfish mindset. 

Edited March 12, 2014 by AscendantWyvern

[NovusNiveus]

snip

 

To be honest, I was speaking from my own experience, and that of people that I know personally - when cash was a lot tighter and I had to strictly budget the games I bought, I would always try it out before I bought it.

This lead to me having bought Dark Souls twice now, as well as the likes of Human Revolution, Far Cry 3, Bulletstorm and others, and gave me the foreknowledge to steer clear of Mass Effect 3. I have since cracked Far Cry 3 and Bulletstorm because of their draconian DRM systems.

The fact remains that people don't have a problem spending money on a product if it is of good quality and delivered to them in a convenient manner - as Gaben says, people have no problem spending upwards of a thousand dollars on a PC that can run these games, and they will buy if it is more convenient to buy. Valve does not release their analytics, but I feel I can trust his informed opinion.

[Mainabi]

-snip-

piracy was never the answer or solution to it, it's simply a band-aid to the situation right now. 

 

And yes humanity are somewhat selfish, yet they throw money, donate, and reward good stuff, just look at us we're founders, we're living proof that we support the devs

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

People in the 21st century have been hardwired to consume and purchase products in order to keep the machine going. The only reason people pirate is because

1) cannot afford

2)the seller is not giving a good product for what it is worth.

[Decarien]

People in the 21st century have been hardwired to consume and purchase products in order to keep the machine going. The only reason people pirate is because

1) cannot afford

2)the seller is not giving a good product for what it is worth.

[Egg_Chen]

@OP - Firstly I wish my school days had interesting subjects like this :)

 

There are lots of arguments for both sides, a quick Google search will find some interesting discussions on the subject.

 

Personally, I buy games, because quite often I get a better service (not all the time for sure).

 

Take for example a small indie game called Nation Red, didn't cost me much but three years later an update rolls in through Steam, and I play it again.

Had I pirated that, I would have had version 1.0 which is remarkably different to the current one.

Also, multiplayer, I know you can get round it, but it comes back to a better service.

I could pirate a co-op game, install a VPN and get it working, or I could buy the game see when my friends are online and just click "Join".

 

Now compare that to the earlier Game of Thrones example, and I find it hard to criticise an Aussie for downloading that.

 

Simply put, they need to make piracy a worse option, not increase the punishment.

Punishment will never work because of the sheer numbers involved.

 

Especially with this subject, there are ways and means to pirate content that constantly evolve, policing that is nigh impossible, and therefore so is punishment as a preventative measure.

[avinity8]

Yes it should be punish more and not just that, also enforced. There's piracy laws, thing is so many do it now and the man power required to seek out and prosecute these criminals would be considered petty and waste of taxpayers money. Especially with all the other crimes going on out there.

 

This war we live in, freedom of the internet. You can be whoever you want, act, talk however you want with no fear of repercussion. 

 

Stealing music/movies/etc is same as stealing anything else. Most people that do it, try to justify it over it just being music or a movie. It's still a product, that has a owner who is seeking to acquire monetary value in exchange for his/her service.

 

Would you go into a store and just steal a candy bar or small pack of gum and think nothing of it? Shrug of the shoulders; "its just a candy bar." Well that store owner is trying to sale that item and put food on his table.

 

Music artist make music to entertain, no matter how awful most of the crap that most of them put out, it's still their product which they are selling. If you don't value it at its retail price, wait for a sale or just don't buy it.

 

Saying it costs too much for the quality of the material or the company, middleman behind it you dislike or don't support are not justifiable reasons. 

 

That's like someone saying; "Oh I don't support Kraft and sometimes Oreo cookies packages displays Kraft logo so let me just take a few out the package (while in the store) and eat em, I'm not paying for this crap."

 

Or "I don't like/support the current President in office and he appointed/nominated the new Secretary of Treasury so let me go take(steal) some money from a bank."

 

So on and so on. Now-a-days more and more people lose more and more 'integrity'. Lack real morals and values and only act right in society out of fear of being punish.

 

There should be no difference in stealing a song/movie - from illegally downloading - robbing a store or a bank. Or even mugging a person

 

Average person wouldn't go to a restaurant, eat the food then claim they don't want to pay due to the quality of the food.No, you would either seek a manager/supervisor to reimburse you or fix the problem. Or simply not go back to that restaurant.

 

You have movie goers every week who to the movies and see a bunch of crap. They're not taking the easy road and illegally watching it online and saying; "Oh, well I didn't know if I would like it or not so I didn't want to waste my money."

 

If like music but don't want to or can't spend money on it. listen to the radio... Call in and request songs. Youtube/Vevo have dedicated channels for most music people where you can hear some of their songs and even they should have personal websites etc etc.

 

Wish the government could set up a non-profit organization to start really enforcing piracy laws. I never feel bad when I hear people catching viruses from torrent sites, etc. You were likely doing something you should not have been doing.

 

Preteens doing stuff like this you can see why, they're kids. But older teens and especially young adults and God forbid people over the age of 24 still downloading illegal content and a habit of doing it too....

 

Smh, this world we live in. It's easy when the shoes on the other feet. But if it's you who are trying to sell something and someone else somewhere else is selling your same product for much cheaper or for free and getting ads revenue in return aaaand not giving you any of the cut, wouldn't you be upset?!

 

#RandomFact - I have no friends nor associates - that I know of - that download illegal content. I don't surround myself with such people  And no I'm no saint, but damn, stealing is something that doesn't flow in my bloodstream. 

 

 

 

Excuse the baby essay, I just... despiiiise such a thing and can't believe it's still a problem. This subject goes hand in hand with 'gaming-hackers' aka cheaters. F2P games have been ruined in the last 10+ years with hackers and P2W.P2W marketing from both companies that are greedy and want to milk things and from companies that seek a way to make money to cover their costs of cheaters ruining their products.

 

Have to pay lawyers to deal with gold farmers and such. Better anti cheat systems, etc etc. Boy, the freedom of the internet. BTW wasn't it the Internet's birhday this week or something?! 25 years and this is what we have in our closet to show for...

 

Stuff like piracy and other petty stuff is what fuels the government and it's hunger/agenda for absolute power and taking away our freedom. They get to use examples like the things I mentioned and much more. Average is stupid and/or selfish to comprehend that though.

 

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GL on your project.

[Llyssa]

My thoughts on this are always: If you didn't get a paycheck next pay day, and you went to your boss about it, and he assured  you that it was fine because you didn't actually lose anything by not getting the paycheck, as you're still healthy, alive, well, and totally in-tact, what would you do about?

[emikochan]

snip

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GL on your project.

So naive... Please read the thread. Piracy is not Stealing, because you are not depriving the original owner of the product. Let's just reverse your logic. If someone copied your car/food/house, would you have a problem? If you didn't even know it happened one night?

 

Piracy is a crime but it's not comparable to theft.

Edited March 14, 2014 by emikochan