GraalOhOtonami Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Snip ------ GL on your project. BS, read up on the subject with a more liberal outlook, you're being pinned down by neoliberalism (which ironically is anti-liberal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avinity8 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 So naive... Please read the thread. Piracy is not Stealing, because you are not depriving the original owner of the product. Let's just reverse your logic. If someone copied your car/food/house, would you have a problem? If you didn't even know it happened one night? Piracy is a crime but it's not comparable to theft. I could call you naive as well. I've read on this topic years before and steady with it. People just like to dress thing up to fancy their goals and agenda. When the settlers came over took America from the Native Americans, they didn't call it or refer to it as stealing, they were 'exploring new frontier.' It's pretty close to theft... Regardless of my knowledge if someone copied my product or not. Your logic is like if you were to get a winning lottery ticket and not know it and someone knowingly takes it from you for themselves. Now technically they didn't outright deprive you of anything you already owned right? you didn't even know about it right?... #DatLogicTho If you want the product, buy it, simple as that. BS, read up on the subject with a more liberal outlook, you're being pinned down by neoliberalism (which ironically is anti-liberal). I've looked at it through several ways over the years but thanks for your insightful post... /sar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodKitten Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 torrenting is ok so long you do one of the following. checking if your computer can run it, having first impressions (maybe you'll find its not for you in the first few minutes), dont have money but planing on buying the game reguardless. buttom line, if you want to play the game fully, or you like it, buy it. the only games i torrented are games that for some reason not selling in my country (not showing on steam store due to my IP location) or games that dont have a digital version and are too old to be in retail stores. also if a game is censored for one reason or another (can bypass with IP mask to get the version you want if you cant have someone gift it) torrenting to get the full expiriance is also ok, as long as you pay for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraalOhOtonami Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I could call you naive as well. I've read on this topic years before and steady with it. People just like to dress thing up to fancy their goals and agenda. When the settlers came over took America from the Native Americans, they didn't call it or refer to it as stealing, they were 'exploring new frontier.' It's pretty close to theft... Regardless of my knowledge if someone copied my product or not. Your logic is like if you were to get a winning lottery ticket and not know it and someone knowingly takes it from you for themselves. Now technically they didn't outright deprive you of anything you already owned right? you didn't even know about it right?... #DatLogicTho If you want the product, buy it, simple as that. I've looked at it through several ways over the years but thanks for your insightful post... /sar Again, you're assuming that people have the money to buy this product. Another point: Have you considered brushing up on your English? Theft is a permanent removal of property from the owner, that means no access to it after it is taken. You compare Manifest Destiny and the theft and abuse of land from Native Americans? It's hardly an equivalent. And taking a winning lottery ticket away is hardly comparable to pirating a game, by taking away a ticket, you're depriving them of likely the only chance they have of making that much, by pirating a game, you remove ONE SINGLE SALE. Sometimes not even that, if you didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, there is no loss to them, and possibly a gain to the pirater, and even, through word of mouth, an eventual benefit to the company if their friends buy it. Another benefit is if the multiplayer is locked to purchased copies, meaning that to play with friends, the pirater is likely to buy the game for that reason alone. One last point, many bands support pirating, possibly my favourite being Machinae Supremacy, who has their official upload site as Pirate Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avinity8 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Again, you're assuming that people have the money to buy this product. Another point: Have you considered brushing up on your English? Theft is a permanent removal of property from the owner, that means no access to it after it is taken. You compare Manifest Destiny and the theft and abuse of land from Native Americans? It's hardly an equivalent. And taking a winning lottery ticket away is hardly comparable to pirating a game, by taking away a ticket, you're depriving them of likely the only chance they have of making that much, by pirating a game, you remove ONE SINGLE SALE. Sometimes not even that, if you didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, there is no loss to them, and possibly a gain to the pirater, and even, through word of mouth, an eventual benefit to the company if their friends buy it. Another benefit is if the multiplayer is locked to purchased copies, meaning that to play with friends, the pirater is likely to buy the game for that reason alone. One last point, many bands support pirating, possibly my favourite being Machinae Supremacy, who has their official upload site as Pirate Bay. Smh, too easy. Here goes. Assuming they have money?! Who cares if they have money for the product or not, that's not a sane reasonable reason to do such an action, are you serious?! Smh You should probably brush up on your Japanese. See how dumb that sounds?! Regardless of this being a dominant English site, not everyone speak English as a first language, but GG on showing your stupidity...By the way, your grammar needs work too. #irony No, your definition of theft is terribly flawed and wrong. No wonder you think like you do. Perhaps you should acquire a firm understanding for the definition(s) of theft; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft Manifest Destiny is one of those 'pretty things up' tactics I touched on earlier. Regardless of the amount or value of said stolen item, it's still stolen. The reasoning of if you didn't have the money for it either and never would have bought it therefore the producer of said item is not at a lost is ridiculous. That logic is flawed. Your word of mouth scenario is surrounded by the likelihood of probability. Meaning there's no sure thing that 'word of mouth'(free advertising) will occur. Once again your logic is flawed. People being okay and actually somewhat supporting the piracy of their items doesn't make it okay nor changes the nature of it. It's like punching someone but they still forgive you. It's still assault and battery. Some artist adapt to the method of, "if you can't beat them, join them." Those people are simply seeking to get what little they can and/or get by. I guess should go rob a bank but it's okay because I will return the money back within five minutes.... yea that'll work in court... Imagine if you were a comic book creator and only sold your work digitally. Now imagine a pirating site spreading your product around to everyone for free downloads. No one bothers paying when they know that they can get your product for free. By your logic, that's okay because *ahem* " if you didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, there is no loss to them, and possibly a gain to the pirater." So that creator takes a loss at his life's profession because of such logic... You sir deserve a hero badge ;) That's exactly how it is in the real world. Yes many do buy and support digital content but it doesn't excuse those that seek it through illegal means. Piracy sites like Manga(Japanese comics) hosting sites make much money from the ad views on their sites where they host the illegal content. The originators don't see any of that profit. So not only do you steal but you enrich the person providing the illegal items... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WERElektro Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Depends on what you're downloading illegaly. Are we talkin about music, movies and games? no. Most of the time that kind of stuff is only available for download if it's really popular (at least it used to be like this before youtube existed). So the copyright owners already have a S#&$load of money. I don't. Why should I pay money for overpriced cds and dvds to some filthy company? I remember reading this a while back: single mother sued by music label/company for downloading some songs by ...Rhianna I think it was. Wanting here to pay > 10k $ Does this sound fair? Or Fox sueing some man for downloading episodes of the simpsons. Wanting him to pay more than a average worker would earn in his lifetime. Like, wtf? It's a bit more difficult when we're talking about illegally downloading songs of indie bands or film-makers. They might actually be in need of the money. --- If by "illegal downloads" you mean child porn, yes, this should be punished harder. For obvious reasons. It's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraalOhOtonami Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Smh, too easy. Here goes. Assuming they have money?! Who cares if they have money for the product or not, that's not a sane reasonable reason to do such an action, are you serious?! Smh You should probably brush up on your Japanese. See how dumb that sounds?! Regardless of this being a dominant English site, not everyone speak English as a first language, but GG on showing your stupidity...By the way, your grammar needs work too. #irony No, your definition of theft is terribly flawed and wrong. No wonder you think like you do. Perhaps you should acquire a firm understanding for the definition(s) of theft; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft Manifest Destiny is one of those 'pretty things up' tactics I touched on earlier. Regardless of the amount or value of said stolen item, it's still stolen. The reasoning of if you didn't have the money for it either and never would have bought it therefore the producer of said item is not at a lost is ridiculous. That logic is flawed. Your word of mouth scenario is surrounded by the likelihood of probability. Meaning there's no sure thing that 'word of mouth'(free advertising) will occur. Once again your logic is flawed. People being okay and actually somewhat supporting the piracy of their items doesn't make it okay nor changes the nature of it. It's like punching someone but they still forgive you. It's still assault and battery. Some artist adapt to the method of, "if you can't beat them, join them." Those people are simply seeking to get what little they can and/or get by. I guess should go rob a bank but it's okay because I will return the money back within five minutes.... yea that'll work in court... Imagine if you were a comic book creator and only sold your work digitally. Now imagine a pirating site spreading your product around to everyone for free downloads. No one bothers paying when they know that they can get your product for free. By your logic, that's okay because *ahem* " if you didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, there is no loss to them, and possibly a gain to the pirater." So that creator takes a loss at his life's profession because of such logic... You sir deserve a hero badge ;) Yare Yare. Let's get this show on the road. Sorry for insulting your English, truth be told, I'm hasty to say people have bad English when it's their first tongue, I didn't know it wasn't, I therefore retract my statement. HOWEVER. the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it REMOVING THE PROPERTY. Does piracy do this? No? No. It copies it, sure, but it does not remove the original. Just to set that clear. Yes, I am serious when I say it matters if they have the money. If you studied Sociology or Psychology, you'd know about this thing called Relative Deprivation, a major concern in urbanised societies, yes, it leads to crime, and sometimes that crime is unreasonable. Downloading music is not among those crimes whereas mugging is. Where you say that if you didn't have the money for a product you shouldn't have it, does the same apply to food and shelter? There are some who have to steal for food and they illegally seek shelter in private properties, does this mean that they should be punished when they have no other possible choice? To be sure, those are life-and-death situations, but when the alternative is an acceptance-rejection situation due to social standing and capital, the reasoning is the same: "I am worthless if I don't have this" (or thereabouts). As for a word-of-mouth scenario, how do you think music popularity spread before mass media? Free advertisement via word of mouth is almost guaranteed for good products, if it is a bad product, it will likely have negative or zero talk, this is the result of a critical audience versus no audience, it is still spoken about. When you say that many authors of digital media rely on income from their work, I argue otherwise. Andrew Hussie for one has made a killing from a free webcomic, Skrillex says that he just wants people to have his music and doesn't care about profit, et cetera. The real income comes from related products, physical sales: gigs, t-shirts, and so on. In other words, the ones with a good product thrive regardless of, and even sometimes BECAUSE OF illegal downloads (think of the Western anime following). To quote you: "Imagine if you were a comic book creator and only sold your work digitally. Now imagine a pirating site spreading your product around to everyone for free downloads. No one bothers paying when they know that they can get your product for free." Andrew Hussie. Enough said? As you cite the ad revenue from Manga/Anime sites, I ask you this: How many people would find legal sites to pay what they could see for free? Why don't the authors/publishers do the same? Oh wait, they do. http://en.gundam.info/index/white http://funimation.tv/ The point is that they make money from ads and from related products as much as those who are hosting illegal manga (which is likely translated by fans for fans, and is actually unavailable as a legal copy anyway.) Edited March 14, 2014 by GraalOhOtonami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulEchelon Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I can fully attest to the "Downloading to try before I buy" argument. A good long while back, Kingdoms of Amalur appeared. There was a demo of it and I felt it was interesting...but not enough to warrant a purchase. Eventually, the company behind it went belly up (thanks to EA, of course) and shut down everything that had to do with KoA. They then sold their rights for the game to Rhode Island. Thanks to this, there were absolutely zero chances for any sort of Steam sale, and even less of a chance for a console copy sale. Thus it stayed at 60 bucks (or was it 50? don't remember) for a good, long time. Welp, after enjoying Skyrim I found myself pondering Amalur again. I read up more about what was going on and realized I could just simply download it. Hell, the original devs for it aren't going to get the money anyway, so why bother buying it? So I downloaded, played a bit of it, and found myself enjoying it (well, sans the mundane &#! quests. My God. But the story itself was definitely vibrant.) And eventually, even though I knew the devs weren't going to get any of the profit, I went ahead and bought it because I felt the game deserved it (And suddenly it was on sale so woo~). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avinity8 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yare Yare. Let's get this show on the road. Sorry for insulting your English, truth be told, I'm hasty to say people have bad English when it's their first tongue, I didn't know it wasn't, I therefore retract my statement. HOWEVER. the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it REMOVING THE PROPERTY. Does piracy do this? No? No. It copies it, sure, but it does not remove the original. Just to set that clear. Yes, I am serious when I say it matters if they have the money. If you studied Sociology or Psychology, you'd know about this thing called Relative Deprivation, a major concern in urbanised societies, yes, it leads to crime, and sometimes that crime is unreasonable. Downloading music is not among those crimes whereas mugging is. Where you say that if you didn't have the money for a product you shouldn't have it, does the same apply to food and shelter? There are some who have to steal for food and they illegally seek shelter in private properties, does this mean that they should be punished when they have no other possible choice? To be sure, those are life-and-death situations, but when the alternative is an acceptance-rejection situation due to social standing and capital, the reasoning is the same: "I am worthless if I don't have this" (or thereabouts). As for a word-of-mouth scenario, how do you think music popularity spread before mass media? Free advertisement via word of mouth is almost guaranteed for good products, if it is a bad product, it will likely have negative or zero talk, this is the result of a critical audience versus no audience, it is still spoken about. When you say that many authors of digital media rely on income from their work, I argue otherwise. Andrew Hussie for one has made a killing from a free webcomic, Skrillex says that he just wants people to have his music and doesn't care about profit, et cetera. The real income comes from related products, physical sales: gigs, t-shirts, and so on. In other words, the ones with a good product thrive regardless of, and even sometimes BECAUSE OF illegal downloads (think of the Western anime following). To quote you: "Imagine if you were a comic book creator and only sold your work digitally. Now imagine a pirating site spreading your product around to everyone for free downloads. No one bothers paying when they know that they can get your product for free." Andrew Hussie. Enough said? As you cite the ad revenue from Manga/Anime sites, I ask you this: How many people would find legal sites to pay what they could see for free? Why don't the authors/publishers do the same? Oh wait, they do. http://en.gundam.info/index/white http://funimation.tv/ The point is that they make money from ads and from related products as much as those who are hosting illegal manga (which is likely translated by fans for fans, and is actually unavailable as a legal copy anyway.) You started off with a lot of damn commas, damn. You quoted the definition for stealing/theft but decided to only focus on the removing aspect of the definition and disregarding the 'taking' to suit your argument... Piracy 'takes' copies of the product. If you utilize the service, you should pay the asking price for said item. Piracy and Relative Deprivation are not intermingled and therefore a poor cop out. Yes the same applies to those that steal/take food and shelter. Which by the way are necessities for every human being, as to how to compare luxury such as 'music, movies and games,etc' to such is baffling but I guess you're grasping for straws at the moment. There are shelters for the homeless. Stealing food and/or squatting isn't okay, even for the homeless which is why they dealt with when they do these things. Of course the empathy in us can understand why they would do such things, they are trying to survive. It still does not change what they have done from being a crime... Regardless of the free advertisement, if you consume(listen) to music that is being illegally/wrongfully provided, you've broken the law. Again, one or two artists here and there doesn't make it okay. As a whole the music industry is against it... Yet you name a 'few' people. Now name aaaall the people that don't support it... The guy you mentioned likely made his money through ads revenue. I didn't say nothing about free product and receiving ad revenue. I mentioned someone besides the owner and without his/her consent doing the same and keeping the money for themselves and practicing the behavior. As in continually providing said product illegally. Whereas people could be going to Hussie's? site and generating him ad views, they would be giving the piracy ad views. But why would a piracy site pirate free content? I never been on such a site so I wouldn't know so I don't get your mentioning of Hussie and his situation. Especially since not everyone will offer their product for free and just rely solely on ad revenue, and that's their right to do so. So you mentioning of that only suits those that seek to go that route and/or happen to be moderately successful. But successful or not, it doesn't negate the wrongdoings of piracy... I guess you missed out the big Manga vs Google vs illegal hosting site(s) war a few years back, four years maybe?! Manga companies had had enough and sought after Google to target those illegal hosting sites. Mature/inappropriate content was portrayed as the wrecking ball though. Many hosting sites stop hosting, some kept doing it. Point is it that it wasn't not okay overall as a whole within the Manga Industry, yet you chose to name a few?... smh, weak argument. Read up on it here; http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639356/the-end-of-manga-hosting-sites Also, the links you provided, are those illegal sites? Or do the actual creators have a hand in it and receive monetary value from it? If so, that is redundant to the topic at hand and only suits to support my argument and not yours. Authors 'willing' to provide their own services for free (hosting on a site) is not the same as someone not associated and doesn't have consent from the author doing the same thing... So no, not enough said. Unless the owner gives permission to do such acts, it's wrong. And that owner can only speak for himself and his/her own product. Just because it's okay with one or two people doesn't make it justifiable. I'm done with this debate with you since it's not going to go anywhere. We are clearly too different people and this will only become repetitive if it progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts